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Thread: Reinin revisited Some Help needed

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    Default Reinin revisited. Some Help needed.

    So...I went through Wikisocion and read what it says about Reinin dichotomies. I figured they are the most analytic and objective method one can use to type themselves. I have tried them before but this time I tried to be very careful.

    So I tried furiously to apply those to myself. Sadly not all dichotomies were covered i wikisocion. Anyways I could apply several dichotomies to myself without too much doubt.

    Below are those dichotomies and some examples (but not all) of the thinking that made me come to the conclusion I did.

    Farsighted > Carefree
    - I tend to always think of the consequences of my actions before acting. Except in moments of fury but even then I'm aware of the consequences I just choose to ignore them. When going on a trip I tend to pack everything I could need and a bit (=a lot) extra in case something unexpected happens. I tend to think a lot about what to put in hand luggage in case the airline loses by bags. And so on. When buying something bigger than a bottle of soda I never do that without considering my financial situation carefully (even for years to come). I don't wish to do something which I regret later. (even if I'm good at forgetting my mistakes after they happen...it is just that the thought of making a bad move because of carelessness is annoying)

    Negativist > Positivist
    I related to all these (from wikisocion)
    - Usually more reprimanding than complimenting.
    - Socially and intellectually more mistrusting.
    - Explains what things are not (irrationals) or should not be (rationals). <- here especially the irrational part

    Aristocrat > Democrat
    - I tend to divide the people I know into social groups. For example there are the "relatives", "current workmates", "ex-workmates", and so on. I tend to dislike it if these social groups get mixed e.g. the relatives, current workmates and ex-workmates are in the same space together discussing with me and each other. It confuses me and makes me insecure about the unpredictable dynamics of the situation and my role in the the whole mess.

    Strategic > Tactic
    - I don't care too much about the methods used to achieve a goal. If possible I let other people choose the methods for me. If I have to choose the methods myself I tend to experiment until I find some method which seems "good enough" and then use it to death (or until someone points it out how my method is unoptimal and shows me a better one at which point I throw away the old one and start using the new one).

    So using these four dichotomies I get sort of surprising results.

    4/4 SLE
    3/4 LSE (tactic > strategic), LII (democratic > aristocratic), EIE (carefree > farsighted), EII (positivist > negativist)

    So assuming I have all those dichotomies understood and applies correctly I would be SLE which is the only type to be all those things. So far only a handful of people has seen me as sensory type and even less as type so it casts doubt on this result.

    If we assume I have failed to understand one of those dichotomies correctly I would be LSE, LII, EIE, EII depending on which dichotomy I have failed to understand and apply correctly.

    All other types seemingly differ in at least two dichotomies and are thus less likely (especially the often mentioned IEI, IEE, ILE).

    So where do I fail? What dichotomy I do wrong? How much I can trust that I'm one of SLE, LSE, LII, EIE, EII?

    Next I need to check which dichotomies best differentiate these four types and where do I stand in those. Any help there is appreciated.

    I was actually originally thinking of making this a general discussion topic about interpreting the dichotomies mentioned above but I thought I make this a mixed typing and dichotomy lesson thread.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    I think thehotelambush did this page with the dichotomies ranked into tiers - I'm not sure if each tier represents a different level of consensus amongst socionists, or is some mathematical thing - maybe you could ignore the Positivist\Negativist dichotomy (tier 3)?

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...pe_dichotomies

    I'm not completely won over by the Reinin dichotmies myself - but this may be due to my insistence of being an INTj as well as a comprehensive failure to understand .
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I think thehotelambush did this page with the dichotomies ranked into tiers - I'm not sure if each tier represents a different level of consensus amongst socionists, or is some mathematical thing - maybe you could ignore the Positivist\Negativist dichotomy (tier 3)?

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...pe_dichotomies
    Ok. If I ignore positivist/negativist then the situation changes a bit.

    Now I am only:
    Strategic
    Farsighted
    Aristocrat

    That leaves:
    3/3 SLE, EII
    2/3 LII, EIE, SEE, SLI, EIE, LSE

    So SLE and EII are perfect matches (funny). LII, EIE, SEE, SLI, EIE, LSE are 2/3 matches. Others are 1/3 or less making them unlikely. Anyways the usual suggestions IEI, IEE, ILE are still completely out of the picture.

    Now if I add weight to aristocracy which is the dichotomy most often applied to me by some people I can rule out democratic types LII and SEE.

    It would make me one of SLE, EII, EIE, SLI, LSE

    One other dichotomy I tend to associate with is Merry > Serious. This would make me a Fe-type and in effect a Beta extrovert with SLE > EIE. However Merry is also a tier 3 dichotomy. Umh. I wonder what would be a better dichotomy to choose between SLE, EII, EIE, SLI and LSE?

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    If one thinks that he doesn't match Reinin's traits of his type, it means either that he doesn't understand Reinin dichotomies, or that he mistyped himself.

    For example, you can't be negativist and LSI, because all negativists have "static minus" or "dynamic plus" element, whereas positivists have "static plus" or "dynamic minus". An LSE may mistype himself LSI because he would be E1 and Myersian ISTJ. A difference between LSI and LSE is that LSE are more organisational (negative judgers - taking decisions to minimise the negative) whereas LSI are more legalistic (positive judgers - taking decisions to maximise the positive).

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    XoX, find more Reinin Dichotomies. There are about 10 of them, I think. EII makes me think. It could explain why some type you as ENFj, some type you as INFp, but you have never been able to clearly stick to one of those types and why we have the relationship that we have. We often seem to have such differences that I have a hard time seeing you as the same quadra as me.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    XoX, find more Reinin Dichotomies. There are about 10 of them, I think. EII makes me think. It could explain why some type you as ENFj, some type you as INFp, but you have never been able to clearly stick to one of those types and why we have the relationship that we have. We often seem to have such differences that I have a hard time seeing you as the same quadra as me.
    Hi. And yes there are 11 dichotomies but sadly the wikisocion doesn't document them all so I have to use other sources (which are harder to understand).
    The fact why I cannot clearly stick to one type might mean something. It might mean that perhaps none of those types I have been considering or what
    has been suggested to me is not my type. This is why I don't feel at home in them. Who knows. Perhaps I just don't understand socionics and myself enough.

    Then I don't have a hard time to see you in my Quadra at all. Our sometimes dramatic exchanges of information are actually a trade mark of Beta. Beta relations can sometimes be rather heavy I'd think. More heavy between Betas than between Betas and some other Quadras. Betas are too intense perhaps. Our differences might also be more superficial than they seem. So you like to build a good image. I don't particularly care. I occasionally disrupt your image building process which makes you angry. We fight a bit. Big deal? Lol. At least we get publicity that way (oops, does saying that make me image conscious?).

    Anyways let's go on with the analysis. I try to say something about every dichotomy. I want someone to correct me if I fail to understand the dichotomy properly.

    Static & dynamic: unclear at this point

    Taciturn & narrator: perhaps narrator but unclear (tendency to either be silent or monologue but that is
    not enough to decide imho, taciturns can monologue too)

    Positivist & negativist: perhaps negativist. tendency to criticize more
    than praise but overall I don't seem as negativistic as e.g. INTps and many other
    people are. Strong tendency to criticize over praising still points to negativist.

    Tactical & strategic: unclear...could be either...currently identifying with
    strategic but in long term life has been lacking strategy somewhat. Then again my
    methodologies have been lacking too, heh. My overall impatience might cause me to
    act more tactical than I am. Meaning that I want to have goals and focus on them but
    it annoys me how long it takes to achieve them so I start to improvise and pull
    tactical plays and change goals. Strategic in the heart but tactical in behavior or
    something. Umm. Let's leave this open even if in previous analysis I said strategic. I still think
    a bit more to the strategic side.

    Compliant & obstinate: somewhat unclear...however if I evaluate that my resources
    are not adequate for moving along some path I will change path instead of increasing
    resources until I can go past the brick wall. I'd say compliant.

    Careless & far sighted: I tend to prepare for everything which is a clear sign of
    farsighted. However, I also tend to improvise a lot. Solve problems with a quick
    fix if I'm in a hurry and under stress. At these times I do realise that I'm
    creating a long term problem but at the moment my focus is so much on getting the
    job done NOW (I'm very impatient really) that I just ignore the consequences of
    tomorrow in order to get that sense of accomplishment today. Still I don't know if
    this makes me careless because my general attitude is that you can and should
    prepare for everything. I'm just too impatient to always care about that principle.
    And I do believe I can tackle the problems later when they hit back. Despite my
    faith in my ability to improvise I always put the extra pair of socks in my travel
    bag just to decrease the probability that I have to improvise. Improvisation always
    carries a risk which can be avoided by these kind of simple preparations.

    Reasonable & resolute: unclear. I do have some problems to mobilize unless the
    situation calls for this. There was talk about how reasonable people are like this.
    This is very thin evidence though. Perhaps I'm just a bit lazy.

    Constructivist & emotivist: unclear

    Process & result: Not sure. However I have been in a work situation with a clear
    process-oriented person and the fact that there NEVER was a goal line to reach which
    would make you get a sense of accomplisment is annoying. The process just goes on
    and on without never ending. This would suggest result.

    Merry & serious: The way I relate to new people seems very merry. I just naturally
    relate to them with no need to any formal data exchange before hand. Also have a
    tendency to somewhat blur the boundaries of self and others. I'd say merry.

    Democratic & aristocratic: Not very aristocratic in the sense that I'm not too
    enthusiastic about power hierarchies and such. Especially I dislike power
    hierarchies imposed on me. I might have a good conception of the balance of power
    between groups and individuals around me and how they relate to each other in the
    chain of command but I don't particularly care for raising up in the ladder of a
    predefined power hierarchy nor respecting that hierarchy. If anything I'd like to
    tear those hierarchies down and decide who will lead and who will follow according
    to my own conception of power hierarchy. Anyways, power is not a big concern for me
    generally. Some people have it. Some don't. I don't yearn for it and I can live either way as long as those
    more powerful than me don't try to impose their power on me. Then I have a strong
    tendency to stereotype. I think I'm aristocrat.

    From this we can gather...
    Aristocratic seems the best bet. Followed by merry.

    -> This clearly suggests Beta

    Farsighted doesn't seem as clear anymore but still has quite a lot of support.

    Result oriented has some support. Negativist has some support. Narrator has some
    support. Compliant has some support.

    -> This would pretty much cut out ENFj and ISTj. Leaving ESTp and INFp. Negativism
    and narrator points to ESTp > INFp but this might be just my mistake in interpreting
    the dichotomies or applying them to me.

    Reasonable has a tiny bit of support. This points away from both ESTp and INFp but
    it is such a hard dichotomy to interpret atm that I will call this an anomaly which
    however leaves the door open for other interpretations of the data.

    So this analysis would put me to Beta and suggest ESTp > INFp > other Betas. As
    there probably is no person here who currently would agree to me being ESTp or
    dominant but many who would agree to me being INFp or dominant or at least an intuitive type.
    Recent VI efforts have also suggested IP temperament and particularly dominant.
    I'd say that INFp seems like a best guess. But I did do a lot of physical and contact sports when younger and
    break quite a many tennis racks and destroy other stuff when angry which would apparently be the trade mark of EP impulsive behavior combined with
    even if I have grown to be a bit different when older.

    So I don't wish to rule out ESTp at this point based on "external" evidence
    which is not related to reinin analysis until I have explained away why I
    currently see myself more on strategic negativist side than tactical positivist
    side. Especially the negativist and positivist dichotomy bothers me. A subtype INFp might explain that
    as it would put me closer to INTp who is negativist (but then again not strategic). I would also
    have to come to a conclusion between static and dynamic where
    static would point to ESTp and dynamic would point to INFp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    If one thinks that he doesn't match Reinin's traits of his type, it means either that he doesn't understand Reinin dichotomies, or that he mistyped himself.
    In my case it is probably both. Mistyping and misunderstanding

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    I need to figure out an answer to each dichotomy and then I might do a Kristiina style summing up (and throw away the exclusion style based on "most certainly true" dichotomies). If I make a mistake in either aristocracy or merry then my analysis above is pretty much useless. Now it is almost 100% certain I'm not ESTp and as I have said before I doubt INFp a lot but it is not completely impossible. About INFj. If I end up INFj I'm almost as surprised as I'd be about ESTp.

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    Now I made a complete list (some dichotomies might have changed):
    static
    declarer
    farsighted
    emotivist
    compliant
    merry
    result
    reasonable
    strategic
    negativist
    aristocracy

    This list would give:
    SLE 9
    LII, SEI, EII, IEE 7
    IEI, LSE 6
    ESE, LSI, LIE 5
    ILE , EIE, SEE, SLI, ESI 4
    ILI 3


    So from sensory types the top is:
    SLE 9
    SEI 7
    LSE 6
    others less

    From intuitive types:
    LII, EII, IEE 7
    IEI 6
    others less

    I'm likely to have some mistakes there but I can pretty reliably rule out some types I or others have considered in the past like ILI, SLI, EIE, ILE. In any case I'm rather sure that one of the 7 types scoring >=6 is my type. I just can't have made so many mistakes that some type from the bottom would raise to the top.

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    I think SEI, IEE and EII are all equally possible. I really doubt SLE and LII because of what you have told about yourself and because of your posting style. I never really understood why you typed yourself as an type. Usually I get a certain vibe from types, but I didn't get that from you. Even tough-ass Niffy had the vibe. (well, Joy never had the vibe, so it's not 100% accurate. Or it might still be. Who knows.)
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I think SEI, IEE and EII are all equally possible. I really doubt SLE and LII because of what you have told about yourself and because of your posting style. I never really understood why you typed yourself as an type. Usually I get a certain vibe from types, but I didn't get that from you. Even tough-ass Niffy had the vibe. (well, Joy never had the vibe, so it's not 100% accurate. Or it might still be. Who knows.)
    I'm kind of placing myself more in the than side in the relationship / erotic type thingy. If we rule out SLE as unlikely then the next in line would again be IEI. It is VERY hard to position myself as a caregiver or as a person with strong . I cannot rule out infantile though but somehow I doubt I appreciate caregiver behavior enough. At least the ESFj kind of in your face caregiver often annoys me. I don't know enough ISTps women to know how would I react to their kind of less expressive caregiver behavior. So based on this IEI or IEE seem most likely.

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    Isn't your wife an ESTj or something around there?
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    I think IP Fe is best. A long time ago I said I thought INFp was correct but I guess ISFp is even better. I think the emotion-creation and compliance really come out in you. I don't think you're an aristocrat. At least the way you behave here. I have severe difficulties believing the possibility that you would be INTj, INFj or ESTp and I find ENFp quite unlikely too.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Isn't your wife an ESTj or something around there?
    Well it is decided long ago that she has EJ temperament and is ESTj (Si) or ESFj (Si). I'm kind of thinking ESFj (Si) nowadays but it is still a swing vote.

    Now being married to ESxj would technically point to me being infantile but it is actually her (sometimes over-)focus on stuff which tends to cause most irritation in me. I can't instantly see I dual seek . Of course I appreciate her general ability to keep the home in decent order and do all kind of practical and necessary stuff with great ease and effect but it is the focus on meaningless little things which can annoy me. Like in a restaurant if the food is not set in right position in the plate or the fork is not stylish enough or if the painting on the wall doesn't fit the theme at all then it somehow completely ruins the dinner and so on. Or that every object at home has a specific place and if some object is out of place it ruins everything. That kind of things can really annoy me because I couldn't care less about those things. I just want to have a good time with people I like, eat well, drink well and be happy. Who cares about some stupid fork Perhaps it is more a girl/guy thing than about liking, not liking . I don't know.

    Then one thing I have noticed is that people tend to like sweet things and sugar. I don't use sugar at all really. And I'm generally more interested in the nutritional values of the food than the taste. I don't know if that means anything to ya intellectuals

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    I've never heard about Si types liking sugar. My husband certainly doesn't. I don't think that's something to use in figuring out your or her type anyway.

    Oh and I don't think the rest of that is about Si. Unless it's Si + Fe. I don't think ISTps or ESTjs are so concerned about pictures being crooked. ESFjs tend to straighten things though. But, again, it isn't much to go on and really isn't strong enough to base a typing on.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I've never heard about Si types liking sugar. My husband certainly doesn't. I don't think that's something to use in figuring out your or her type anyway.

    Oh and I don't think the rest of that is about Si. Unless it's Si + Fe. I don't think ISTps or ESTjs are so concerned about pictures being crooked. ESFjs tend to straighten things though. But, again, it isn't much to go on and really isn't strong enough to base a typing on.
    Well I'm just bringing in bits of information if someone can find any meaning to them I think all ENFps at least love sweetness.

    But about the thing. My wife's focus on objects and general harmony of groups of objects makes her something I am not. I have thought it might be or a general sensory preference. It is like every object has a place in relation to other objects and this relation must be defined and harmonious. At home and outside home. If objects are in disharmony then it causes really bad vibes for her. I am somehow connecting this to and sense of aesthetics. Anyways I don't have that at all.

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    OK. Well I don't have that either, whatever it is.

    I do have a bit of unease if the house is messy, but it has to be pretty messy before it bothers me. I don't mind clutter. I don't care - or even notice I don't think - if pictures are crooked.

    But it's true that I like sweets.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Ok I did this awesome test from Sabo (best test I've done so far).
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14130

    I did score ISFp in that test (I've never done that in any test).
    My wife did score ISFp for me in that test (Without knowing what I scored)

    Also we both did score her ESTj independently of each other. That would make her
    my supervisor which could make sense.

    I really have to take this ISFp thing seriously now. There are too many things pushing
    to ISFp now (Reinin, Sabo's test, people's subjective opinions to name some). It would
    explain why I tend to see myself more physical than the average INxx type but less
    so than the average ESxp. Of course I have to change my understanding of (as do those
    who don't see any in my photos whatever that means :wink

    I think this is cool developments anyways.

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    The way you've talked about your wife, she does sound potentially ESTj. I'm my brother's supervisor and we get along pretty well, particularly since I've learned about Socionics and when to keep my mouth shut.

    Hopefully you've gotten some good information. It would make more sense if you're ISFp if your wife were ESFj rather than ESTj though. My inlaws are ISFp/ESFj, as were my grandparents. And Expat's parents. I wonder how common that relationship is.

    I guess you've got a good point to work from anyway.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    The way you've talked about your wife, she does sound potentially ESTj. I'm my brother's supervisor and we get along pretty well, particularly since I've learned about Socionics and when to keep my mouth shut.

    Hopefully you've gotten some good information. It would make more sense if you're ISFp if your wife were ESFj rather than ESTj though. My inlaws are ISFp/ESFj, as were my grandparents. And Expat's parents. I wonder how common that relationship is.

    I guess you've got a good point to work from anyway.
    Yes the ISFp hypothesis is very interesting. I'm sticking to it for now despite all the little things (and some bigger) which don't quite fit. Perhaps smilex's explanation in another thread about the core nature of is correct in which case I could have strong . But really...how many ISFps or strong people out there think that things like drawing and cooking are perhaps the most boring things the world has to offer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    but it is actually her (sometimes over-)focus on stuff which tends to cause most irritation in me. I can't instantly see I dual seek . Of course I appreciate her general ability to keep the home in decent order and do all kind of practical and necessary stuff with great ease and effect but it is the focus on meaningless little things which can annoy me. Like in a restaurant if the food is not set in right position in the plate or the fork is not stylish enough or if the painting on the wall doesn't fit the theme at all then it somehow completely ruins the dinner and so on. Or that every object at home has a specific place and if some object is out of place it ruins everything. That kind of things can really annoy me because I couldn't care less about those things. I just want to have a good time with people I like, eat well, drink well and be happy. Who cares about some stupid fork Perhaps it is more a girl/guy thing than about liking, not liking . I don't know.
    I think it's a clear focus on for her , but + as Slacker Mom said, and very characteristic of ESFjs and sometimes of ISFps (but not always - ISFps are very individual about what kind of + bothers them).

    And it's definitely not a girl/guy thing, come on. Lots of women don't care about that either, although gender roles may make them feel more of an obligation to.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Then one thing I have noticed is that people tend to like sweet things and sugar. I don't use sugar at all really. And I'm generally more interested in the nutritional values of the food than the taste. I don't know if that means anything to ya intellectuals
    I disagree with that. Not necessarily. I think people may tend to focus more on how things taste, but not necessarily sugar.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    But about the thing. My wife's focus on objects and general harmony of groups of objects makes her something I am not. I have thought it might be or a general sensory preference. It is like every object has a place in relation to other objects and this relation must be defined and harmonious. At home and outside home. If objects are in disharmony then it causes really bad vibes for her. I am somehow connecting this to and sense of aesthetics. Anyways I don't have that at all.
    I do think it's related to .


    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    But really...how many ISFps or strong people out there think that things like drawing and cooking are perhaps the most boring things the world has to offer?
    Probably not many.

    However, in itself, I would not say that (you don't like drawing/cooking) = not ISFp.

    But regardless of that, in your particular case, I don't think you are ISFp, for what it's worth.

    And again for what it's worth, based on my personal observations of you here only, and using the original Reinin/Augusta concept of dichotomies, the ones I observe in you are

    - Aristocracy
    - Emotion-creating
    - Merry

    Which leads only to INFp (I think, I haven't double-checked it).

    If we leave out Aristocracy, then ISFp is also possible (and perhaps some others? Not sure now).

    Anyway, I really don't think that going by a "Reinin checklist" is the best way to type someone.

    A better way would be this. You have just described one aspect of your wife's behavior that you don't understand or don't relate to much or at all. What are other things about her that annoy/puzzle you the most, and what are the things in you that - as far as you are aware - annoy/puzzle her the most? And going the other way, which are the things in you both that each of you most appreciates in the other?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    @Thunder: yes, you're right of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    My inlaws are ISFp/ESFj, as were my grandparents. And Expat's parents. I wonder how common that relationship is. .
    I guess it's pretty common, for many reasons. I think Alpha SFs are particularly likely to enjoy hanging around in a group for fun, so with increasing chances to meet like-minded people, and an ESFj and ISFp will more obviously enjoy the same kinds of things and activities, at first sight, than with an INTj or ENTp. Also, being Alpha SF, they'd more likely to "just" get married when they both want it, rather than worry about possible future implications or effect on their careers or such. So I'd guess it's a very common relationship in married couples.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    But really...how many ISFps or strong people out there think that things like drawing and cooking are perhaps the most boring things the world has to offer?
    FWIW, Richard hates cooking!!! He didn't mind it so much when he lived alone. But now that there are three people to be cooked for, he becomes almost paralized, particularly when it comes to figuring out WHAT to cook.

    Richard is good at drawing...but he doesn't like drawing. We took a drawing class and I made him come with us. I struggled, Manta just did it her own way, and Richard breezed through the class. The teacher wanted him to join a more advanced class, but he didn't want to go again at all. He is good at attention to detail though. When I need a chart made, he does it, but he nitpicks over the lines and positions, etc. So much so that I often have to demand that he just give the damned chart to me, it's good enough! And he does put together war game miniatures and sells them on ebay. He's also nitpicky about how well those miniatures are put together, wanting everything to line up perfectly.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    But really...how many ISFps or strong people out there think that things like drawing and cooking are perhaps the most boring things the world has to offer?
    FWIW, Richard hates cooking!!! He didn't mind it so much when he lived alone. But now that there are three people to be cooked for, he becomes almost paralized, particularly when it comes to figuring out WHAT to cook.

    Richard is good at drawing...but he doesn't like drawing. We took a drawing class and I made him come with us. I struggled, Manta just did it her own way, and Richard breezed through the class. The teacher wanted him to join a more advanced class, but he didn't want to go again at all. He is good at attention to detail though. When I need a chart made, he does it, but he nitpicks over the lines and positions, etc. So much so that I often have to demand that he just give the damned chart to me, it's good enough! And he does put together war game miniatures and sells them on ebay. He's also nitpicky about how well those miniatures are put together, wanting everything to line up perfectly.
    Well I'm just all around bad at drawing. First of all my fine-motoric skills are too bad for doing anything which requires that kind of precision. I think many things point to rather weak in me.

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    A revisited Reinin list according to my latest understanding:

    First level of certainty: emotivist , merry

    Second level of certainty: compliant, result, declarer, negativist

    Third level of certainty: farsighted, reasonable, strategic

    Uncertain: static vs dynamic, democratic vs aristocratic

    Simple calculation produces following results...

    Types:
    1. SEI, LII, SLE 7/9
    4. Others 5/9 or less

    Quadras:
    1. Alpha 22
    2. Beta, Delta 18
    4. Gamma 14

    Weighted calculation (weights=3, 2, 1)...

    Types:
    1. SEI 14
    2. LII, SLE 13
    4. LIE, IEE 10

    Quadras:
    1. Alpha 42
    2. Beta 38
    3. Delta 30
    4. Gamma 25

    Summary:
    Points to Alpha Quadra
    Points to SEI or LII

    Another new information:
    My wife so strongly identifies with serious > merry that it pretty much is enough to rule out ESFj for her which means she is with very high certainty an ESTj. That is enough proof to rule out INFp. It would leave ISFp and INTj with INTj perhaps making more sense in the end.

    Conclusion:
    INTj > ISFp > other types.

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    Reinin analysis is done for now. However I'm interested in the claim discojoe made that I prefer Fi > Ti in the creation of my values. This conflicts with the Reinin result and so I need to look at functions now and see where they lead me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    My wife so strongly identifies with serious > merry that it pretty much is enough to rule out ESFj for her which means she is with very high certainty an ESTj.
    Is that also your judgement, or you just assume that she's right? Can't you type your own wife in something as basic as whether she's Fe-Ti or Fi-Te? Do you know how to type anyone - whether her or yourself - with regards to that?

    I am not being hostile on purpose. I think those questions are far more essential than what you're doing. If you can't decide for yourself on something as basic as that for someone you know so closely, I don't see the point of going for something so complicated as what you're doing. It will be "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    My wife so strongly identifies with serious > merry that it pretty much is enough to rule out ESFj for her which means she is with very high certainty an ESTj.
    Is that also your judgement, or you just assume that she's right? Can't you type your own wife in something as basic as whether she's Fe-Ti or Fi-Te? Do you know how to type anyone - whether her or yourself - with regards to that?

    I am not being hostile on purpose. I think those questions are far more essential than what you're doing. If you can't decide for yourself on something as basic as that for someone you know so closely, I don't see the point of going for something so complicated as what you're doing. It will be "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".
    Funny that you asked. I haven't actually even tried to apply dichotomies to her. I actually have to make a conscious effort of concentration to retrieve the necessary facts out of my memory and compare them to the description which I haven't done yet. I asked her to read serious/merry description and she pretty instantly said she identifies with the serious. She also as instantly pointed out how her aunt (who imho is ESFj-Fe) is clearly merry. She went on to say she is like the poster child of serious. I just reported that. She seems pretty adamant in her position and generally when she is certain about her opinion she leaves very little room for discussion but instead wants to move on and gets annoyed if I want to keep on discussing about it. I might get back to this issue later. I might actually do all dichotomies for her. Oh she has in the past also identified with dynamic > static which is for ESxj and against ISFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Funny that you asked. I haven't actually even tried to apply dichotomies to her.
    That's not a matter of dichotomies -- it's whether she's Te or Fe, Delta or Alpha. It's about basic typing of the person you know best. If you can't type her, on your own, without asking her, who can you type? You shouldn't even have to ask her anything. How can you then claim to have typed so many other people?


    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    She seems pretty adamant in her position and generally when she is certain about her opinion she leaves very little room for discussion but instead wants to move on and gets annoyed if I want to keep on discussing about it.
    And that doesn't tell you anything about her?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Butting in again...
    SG was not convinced, but personally the Reinin dichotomies seem to fit my - inevitably flawed and subjective - observations reasonably well.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Funny that you asked. I haven't actually even tried to apply dichotomies to her.
    That's not a matter of dichotomies -- it's whether she's Te or Fe, Delta or Alpha. It's about basic typing of the person you know best. If you can't type her, on your own, without asking her, who can you type? You shouldn't even have to ask her anything. How can you then claim to have typed so many other people?
    Ah that. I don't know why it is so hard. Perhaps we spend too much time together. Objectivity is lost. Nah. Probably my concentration is just lost. But I try to concentrate now.

    I see her as rational. Initially I thought IJ temperament but that was MBTI times. When younger she seemed introvert to me (in MBTI sense). When I first met her I would have typed her MBTI introvert by behavior. I seemed more extroverted in behavior. In socionics EJ temperament makes way more sense. Her way of expending energy, general mobility and initiative taking nature doesn't seem IJ. Especially she is more initiative taking and socially "brave" than I am even if I often talk more if you only count the sum of words said.

    We have discussed a lot about her Si here. If I understand Si correctly it is important to her. So EJ-Si I guess. Unless she is just overcompensating about weak Si or something, umm.

    From there on I am at loss currently. I can't get a good handle of the Fe vs Te and she doesn't seem quite identical to the ESFjs and ESTjs I know. Also when I ask her are you more like this ESFj or that ESTj we know she doesn't really identify with either too well (we don't know any ESTj-females though). I can't decide by comparison either. Not "emotional" and merry enough to be ESFj. Kind of too intense to be ESTj. Or at least my stereotype of ESTj who are not really that intense. Actually none of the people I know are enough like her so that any comparison would help. The only exception is that she identifies generally with the rational types.

    How to go on with the Te vs Fe thing in a more scientific way? I tend to trust on my vibe on that a lot. It is often so easy to see where someone belongs. E.g. I just was in a table where a Fi-person tried to initiate calm discussions and ENFj kept getting annoyed and made comments about the mood dropping and so on. Often it is easy. Sometimes it is not and then I am at loss.

    Another point to consider is that I once tried to explain Se and Si to her and ask about Se vs Si value preference and she kept on identifying with Se. I don't remember anymore how I did explain that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    She seems pretty adamant in her position and generally when she is certain about her opinion she leaves very little room for discussion but instead wants to move on and gets annoyed if I want to keep on discussing about it.
    And that doesn't tell you anything about her?
    Hmm it tells me...she is not too interested in learning socionics and is always busy with something else. In general she hates it when I repeat stuff which has already been "decided". I do it here a lot but I do to some extent IRL too. Should it tell me a socionics thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    In general she hates it when I repeat stuff which has already been "decided". I do it here a lot but I do to some extent IRL too. Should it tell me a socionics thing?
    Yes, that it's much more likely that she's Ti dual-seeking (ESFj) than Te dominant (ESTj).

    And if she's not too interested in learning socionics, her opinions on socionics don't mean much, do they?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    In general she hates it when I repeat stuff which has already been "decided". I do it here a lot but I do to some extent IRL too. Should it tell me a socionics thing?
    Yes, that it's much more likely that she's Ti dual-seeking (ESFj) than Te dominant (ESTj).

    And if she's not too interested in learning socionics, her opinions on socionics don't mean much, do they?
    I forgot to add, my personal opinion still is that she is Si > Se even if her Se is not weak as such. Also I am still more inclined to type her as ESFj than ESTj. Perhaps because my initial impression was ethical and it is hard to change. But I don't associate her with other ESFjs I know really. Just hard to accept her as T

    Then about the interest thing. If someone is not "too interested" it doesn't yet mean she is automatically wrong about her type. She does have some knowledge and is more self-aware than e.g. I am. It is not a good idea to completely dismiss her own opinion about her type.

    Now about the dichotomies. Thinking about our differences I'd say I am result and she is process. That is one argument for her being LSE > ESE. And argument for me not being SEI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Then about the interest thing. If someone is not "too interested" it doesn't yet mean she is automatically wrong about her type. She does have some knowledge and is more self-aware than e.g. I am. It is not a good idea to completely dismiss her own opinion about her type.
    I never said, nor meant, that she or anyone else in the same circumstances would be "automatically wrong". But in order to type yourself correctly, you need both self-awareness and knowledge of socionics. If someone consistently displays behavior that goes clearly against the supposed type - as the "unwillingness to discuss further things that have been 'decided' in a Te-dominant" - then I will be skeptical about the person's self-typing. Just like I was about yours, consistently displaying a loathing of Te and love for Fe, and yet saying that you were INTp.

    Just like, at the end of the day, you decide whether you dismiss my opinion about your types, my type, or anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Now about the dichotomies. Thinking about our differences I'd say I am result and she is process. That is one argument for her being LSE > ESE. And argument for me not being SEI.
    Why do you insist in making complicated what is simple? The simple answer is that you are IEI and she is ESE. You supervise her. Probably by noticing that she does not realize the longer-term impression she makes on other people by focusing too much on the here-and-now; and by needing your help to analyze events of her daily life by narrating them to you in detail and expecting your comments on them (whether you give them or not). I'd guess that you work as a sort of "ersatz LII" better than she does as "ersatz SLE". You both expect Ti from the other, but in different ways.

    If what I just said is totally off the mark, then I will say nothing more on this subject.

    And what you are calling "result" and "process" is probably just the difference between a Ni IP and a Si EJ.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Just like, at the end of the day, you decide whether you dismiss my opinion about your types, my type, or anything else.
    I don't dismiss your opinion. Nor do I completely submit to it We are getting a rather good case of her being ESFj > ESTj. Actually when I start to think of her as ESFj some kind of modified "forer effect" or something happens and she suddenly starts to seem more and more ESFj. What type you think someone is affects your perception. But I would say that ESFj makes most sense and if you met her perhaps you'd say "how could you ever think of any other type?". Or not. But let's stick with the ESFj. It is true that she makes those narratives about her day and gets pissed of when I don't really listen too well...

    About me being INFp I'm still skeptical. Type descriptions of INFp don't seem to fit. Imho VI doesn't fit that well even if some people disagree with that. The "image conscious" stuff which you also referred to doesn't seem to fit. I am not too image conscious really. If I am then I'm quite blind to that. Also Reinin dichotomies don't seem to fit too perfectly. I'm still thinking whether I'm EP not IP for example because I see myself more in the "restless" and "fidgety" side of people. For the same reasons you claimed Jessica might not be IP could be applied to me. But let it rest for a while. We'll see. Thanks for the help anyways.

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    I never claimed that Jessica wasn't IP.

    I think that perhaps she isn't ISTp.

    And perhaps I was wrong in attributing being fidgety to extroversion. Perhaps it has at least to do with, or more, with low Si. I have to reconsider it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    What type you think someone is affects your perception.
    Yep, this is much weightier than most people realize.

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    I just read this page:
    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ation_elements

    It seems really great. My current interpretation is that I am a Ni-dominant. And a very strong Ni-subtype. I cannot clearly distinguish between Te and Fe. Initial reaction is Te>Fe but that might be learned behavior. I need Te at work every day. So as far as I can tell I am Ni-IP. In practice this means that my Si is so subdued that it almost acts as a PoLR. Reinin dichotomies are not crystal clear either. I have probably made some mistakes as neither INFp or INTp is very high on my list. INFp being somewhat higher. However there are dichotomies which conflict. E.g. I do believe I am a negativist. Suggests INTp. However I could also be emotion creating. Suggests INFp. So, for now I'm just going to say Ni-IP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee
    do INTp descriptions fit?
    I'm gonna write a longer answer...

    After sleeping a long night and having another discussion with my significant one I have to tell that I need to update my opinion.
    When I wrote my last post I was in Ni-state. However the situation is more complicated.

    First of all my wife again clearly and instantly identifies with Te as it is portrayed in wikisocion. So despite Expat's effort of making her ESFj I think I switch back to ESTj for her. Sorry Expat Expressing herself and her feelings through gestures and dancing is just not her thing. It sounds more like a nightmare than her. She spends most of her day clearly in Te-mode if the wikisocion article is accurate. Whenever she is taking a break from the Te-mode she wishes to relax and enjoy the moment and sensory pleasures. That is Si. Never ever does she spend time in a Ni-like reflective state. She is either charging forward with Te doing goal oriented tasks or stopping for a second and enjoying the moment. No Ni in her life. Not at all. Zero. She is very likely ESTj, Si-subtype. That information can be used in my typing. I do not think we are duals (ESTj-INFj). At the same time it is unlikely that we are conflictors (ESTj-INFp). I can't say much more atm.

    So about me. From an outsider perspective, I hear, I am almost impossible to put into a box. The problem is that I adapt a lot to my environment. She has seen me in pretty much all the mental states describes in the wikisocion article. It is all dependent of the company. I adapt to the company. Take a role which is most natural in that company. My behavior is not fixed and any single person will only see the "face" which is best adapted to that person. So for example my wife didn't think I am Ni-dominant. The reason likely is that when I am with her I don't use Ni that much. I adapt to her Ni-PoLR and restrict my Ni. She saw more Fi in me than Ni. How convenient. Her dual seeking function is Fi so I show a lot of Fi around her. Adaptation.

    She went on to point out that one friend I used to have would put me into a strong Fe-mode. In his company I show a lot of Fe. Dancing, shouting, laughinh, strong expressions. I can be very Fe when the person I am with needs it, wants it, makes it easy to be Fe. It is a very clearly different role from which I have at home. The difference is like night and day. I can be Fe. I can also be Fi. When I am with my wife and with one ex-workmate I show no Fe at all. I have emotionally subdued meaningful discussions with them. Showing empathy when empathy is expected to be shown.

    Despite all the adaption I do have some problems with one function which is Si. Relaxation and enjoying the moment. I can't do that for too long. When in a restaurant eating, enjoying the moment, I eventually start to stress about what I have to do before going to bed. I feel I am wasting too much time. I try to keep up with the Si. Adapting. Enjoying the moment like the others but the Ni seems to push through. That is my interpretation. Si is a hard function to me (and I am not even taking into account my poor sense of aesthetics here which is another thing completely).

    So I still say that I am some Ni-ego type. I am not sure about the IP temperament because I adapt to what my environment needs. I can say that my Si is not strong and it is perhaps the function hardest to keep adapting to in the long run. It could be my PoLR but it could also mean that I am a strong Ni-subtype.

    About INTp descriptions I have made claims that I do relate to them but again here is the problem with adaptation. I have an "INTp mode" but perhaps it is just a mode. In my more introverted moments (not rare at all) I relate most to INTp descriptions. I have an ex-workmate who thinks I might be INTp. Which is why I have claimed to be INTp in the past. How convenient. The work required "being an INTp" so I became an INTp. It is also the type I most often test as.

    However INTp is also the type which people in this forum seem to object the most and which was the type least likely according to Reinin analysis. Except I strongly identify with negativist, criticism prone, type. Someone who focuses on the problems to be fixed more than the possibilities. That could mean INTp. It could also mean some other negativist Ni-type. I can see where this leads to.

    So...I wonder what type is a very adaptive type, a bit lost about their true identity, negativist, critical, probably far-sighted, married to ESTj, does take on different "faces" depending on the company, has perhaps most problems with taking on a longer term "Si-face". It could be ENFj. I wonder if I am ENFj after all. It does sound like an option. I know I have been suggested that before. ENFp is another but perhaps less likely option. ENFp is negativist too and has been said to be "chameleon" as has ENFj. Technically ESTp is also possible but perhaps less likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    So...I wonder what type is a very adaptive type, a bit lost about their true identity, negativist, critical, probably far-sighted, married to ESTj, does take on different "faces" depending on the company, has perhaps most problems with taking on a longer term "Si-face". It could be ENFj. I wonder if I am ENFj after all. It does sound like an option.
    I'm sorry, but it is not an option. Because there is one very big problem with that hypothesis, a little detail that is so important that it in itself falsifies the ENFj as a possible type -- namely the fact that you are an irrational type. There is no way you can have an EJ temperament.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ENFp is another but perhaps less likely option.
    For the single reason just mentioned that is actually a more likely option than ENFj.

    I don't know what to do with your type any more. You don't seem to be able to focus on what is important (some people might say the same thing about me of course ...). You reason like an INTp, but you seem to behave like some other type(s) in a lot of situations. I don't know the correct explanation for that yet.

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