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Thread: American Presidents

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    Default American Presidents

    I've been watching an interesting documentary on the History channel concerning the american presidency and it focuses somewhat on their personalities. Here's my list as it stands. I might add that it is particularly difficult to type presidents of the 20th century, as we see so much contention among historians about their role in history. Bias inevitably makes it difficult to see how there reforms panned out, indicating perhaps a clue to their type. The more influential the president the more difficult. I've read many various lists with FDR, JFK, Lincoln, etc..., and I see a lot of variation. I do not claim to be making the definitive list, simply one that seems to me to be mostly accurate. (x means I have no idea, not in between. ? means that I haven't done quite as much research as might be necessary to feel 100% comfortable with the conclusion.)

    George Washington - ESTj
    John Adams - INFp
    Thomas Jefferson - INTj
    James Madison - INTj
    (Dolly was most definitely an ESFj)
    James Monroe - ISTj (?)
    John Q. Adams - INTp
    Andrew Jackson - ESTp
    Martin Van Buren - ISTj
    William Henry Harrison - xSxp
    John Tyler - xxTj
    James Polk - ESTp
    Zachary Taylor - xSxp
    Millard Fillmore - ESTj (?)
    Franklin Pierce - ENFp (?)
    James Buchanan - ISTj
    Abraham Lincoln - ENTj (???????????????????????)
    Andrew Johnson - INTp
    Ulysses S. Grant - ISTp (?)
    Rutherford B. Hayes - ISFj (?)
    James A. Garfield - ISFj (?)
    Chester Arthur - ESFp (?)
    Grover Cleveland - ISFj (?)
    Benjamin Harrison - ESTj (?)
    William McKinley - ESTj
    Theodore Roosevelt - ENTp (???????????)
    William Taft - INTj (?)
    Woodrow Wilson - INFj (?)
    Warren Harding - ESFp (?)
    Calvin Coolidge - INTp (?)
    Herbert Hoover - ENTj
    Franklin Roosevelt - ENFj (????????????????)
    Harry Truman - ISTp (?)
    Dwight Eisenhower - ISTp (?)
    John F. Kennedy - ENTp (?????????????)
    Lyndon B. Johnson - ENFj (?)
    Richard Nixon - ENTj
    Gerald Ford - xxxx
    Jimmy Carter - INFj
    Ronald Reagan - ENTj (?)
    George H. W. Bush - ISTj (?)
    William Clinton - ENFp (?)
    George W. Bush - ESFj (?)


    I welcome all criticisms as I have met none of these men personally, nor have I dedicated a LOT of time to this.

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    Dmitri Lytov's Avatar
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    The personalities, about which I am sure:

    Harry Truman: logical-sensory introvert (Inspector).
    John F. Kennedy: logical-intuitive extrovert (Entrepreneur).
    Lyndon B. Johnson: sensory-ethical extrovert (Politician)
    Richard Nixon: ethical-sensory introvert (Conservator)
    Gerald Ford: intuitive-ethical introvert (Lyricist)
    Both Jimmy Carter and Rozalynn Carter: intuitive-logical extrovert (Searcher)
    Ronald Reagan: ethical-intuitive (or less probably logical-ibtuitive) extrovert
    George W.Bush I: logical-sensory extrovert (Administrator)
    Bill Clinton: I have some doubts... maybe will discuss him later. But I am sure about the vice-president Gore, who was a logical-intuitive introvert (Analyst).
    George W.Bush II: I have two hypotheses: ethical-intuitive extrovert (Mentor), which I consider more reliable, and sensory-ethical extrovert (Politician). His whole policy reminds the 2nd quadra: the atmosphere of emergency situation, "the enemy is at the gates!", etc.

    As for the previous presidents, I do not know very well their biographies. I am sure only about Thomas Jefferson (logical-intuitive introvert) and John Q. Adams (intuitive-logical extrovert).
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    I think Jimmy Carter is either an ENFp, or an INFj, as he seems to exhibit the dreamy, idealistic, humanitarian view-points of the inuitive aspect of the Delta Quadra.

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    The personalities, about which I am sure:

    Harry Truman: logical-sensory introvert (Inspector).
    John F. Kennedy: logical-intuitive extrovert (Entrepreneur).
    Lyndon B. Johnson: sensory-ethical extrovert (Politician)
    Richard Nixon: ethical-sensory introvert (Conservator)
    Gerald Ford: intuitive-ethical introvert (Lyricist)
    Both Jimmy Carter and Rozalynn Carter: intuitive-logical extrovert (Searcher)
    Ronald Reagan: ethical-intuitive (or less probably logical-ibtuitive) extrovert
    George W.Bush I: logical-sensory extrovert (Administrator)
    Bill Clinton: I have some doubts... maybe will discuss him later. But I am sure about the vice-president Gore, who was a logical-intuitive introvert (Analyst).
    George W.Bush II: I have two hypotheses: ethical-intuitive extrovert (Mentor), which I consider more reliable, and sensory-ethical extrovert (Politician). His whole policy reminds the 2nd quadra: the atmosphere of emergency situation, "the enemy is at the gates!", etc.

    As for the previous presidents, I do not know very well their biographies. I am sure only about Thomas Jefferson (logical-intuitive introvert) and John Q. Adams (intuitive-logical extrovert).
    Interesting perspective. Did you use biographies, V.I., how did you reach your conclusions? I disagree with most of your conclusions, and will attempt to lay out why...

    Harry Truman - I wouldn't disagree with you too much on this one. Truman was a great administrator, and he was very much perceived as being an honest and respected statesman. I almost came to the same conclusion myself, and would probably agree that ISTp, is an inaccurate conclusion on my part.

    JFK - Perceived in the US as a visionary president, that had he been allowed to finish out his presidency, would have proved this view of him. Is recognized by both conservatives and liberals here in the US as an effective leader and someone who had a logical and clear cut vision for the future. Considering that Kennedy had little to no effect on the way govt. operated during his tenure, it is a testament to his vision that americans still look to his speeches and decisions for guidance in this day and age. He was not someone who is viewed as having been overly ambitious. It can be said that much of his decision to even run for president stemmed from external pressure and the fact that he came from a powerful family that encouraged him to run for president. He was a brilliant statesman, guiding the country through a international crisis that almost led to the brink of nuclear war. He was a big picture thinker in this respect. Jackie Kennedy was probably an ISFp, which would make her his dual, and Marilyn Monroe was probably the same. He was charming, an optimistic thinker (like Teddy Roosevelt) and someone who was always looking to the future. I see him as having promoted the values of Alpha quadra...Ne (looking towards the future, potential)...Ti(Logical thought)...Si (Kennedy was attracted to beautiful things...e.g. his wife, Marilyn Monroe)...Fe (Was someone who loved being loved. Wanted to be a popular president, and was one). ENTp

    Lyndon Johnson - I would agree with this because Johnson was in my view, such a sh*thead. He was also NOT close to Kennedy, and the two, arguably, hated one another, he reversed Kennedy's plans to pull out of Vietnam, among other Kennedy initiatives, and was the consummate politician in every way. I said ENFj, mostly because I saw Johnson as taking on the idealist views of govt. held by FDR who was in my view, an ENFj. But, as Johnson was a BAD president, and arguably corrupt as well, I would go with ESFp as a more likely type.

    Richard Nixon - I disagree the most with your conlcusion about Nixon. He did indeed represent the values of Gamma quadra, but not as an ISFj would.
    "Te" - Nixon was a brilliant law student who graduated third in his class and had an active practice before pursuing the presidency. He was someone respected for his intelligence, and had a good grasp of economics as shown by his decisions in this area.
    "Ni" - Had very good timing in his political actions, particularly in his visit to China. He was able to read the political landscape very well, timing his re-entry into politics, after losing to Kennedy, perfectly.
    "Fi" - Was someone who created a close circle of advisors, and valued trust above all else. His political relationships at times were sometimes biased by his relationship with the person he trusted, rather than his ethical evaluation of their character. He kept an actual list of enemies.
    "Se" - Was intensely paraoid about his position of power, which is why he kept a list of enemies. His paranoia about his position was what eventually led to his downfall as president. He sought power throughout his entire career as a politician. ENTj

    Gerald Ford - INFp seems like a likely possibility.

    Jimmy Carter - Carter was most definitely not an ENTp. He IS viewed in this country as a high-minded idealist (Ne), although quiet and subdued in his actions and comments (Fi). He most certainly comes from Delta Quadra as his primary concerns during and after his presidency have been with human rights (Fi). And not in so much a Jeffersonian way
    (Ti), but rather because it is evidently clear that it pains him emotionally to see suffering and therefore he finds the need to actively help (Fi). He has never been regarded as someone with great philosophical ideas, only someone who is willing to put his money where his mouth is and actively seek to bring about better conditions for the people of the world. I would say INFj, but ENFp is also a possibility.

    I would also disagree with Al Gore as an INTj which is maybe another discussion.

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    There may be a problem. It seems that you sometimes confuse socionic definitions and Myers-Briggs definitions, they are somewhat different. And the most important, ENTj in socionics is absolutely not the same as in MBTI. According to MBTI, ENTJ is an intellectual dictator, like Napoleon. According to socionics, he/she is a quick, practice-focused, chasing for new opportunities intellectual.

    For Keirsey, a typical ENTJ was Napoleon Bonaparte (ESTp in socionics).

    For socionists, typical ENTj are (were): Jack London, Brad Pitt, Matt Damon, Boris Yeltsin, Uma Thurman, Richard Feynman, Enrico Fermi, etc.

    Do you notice the difference?

    Sorry, now I write very shortly (have some work), will probably reply in more details 12 hours later.
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    ENTJ in Keirsey is a dictator without the sence of humor. Socionics ENTj is a practical joker. Has a great sence of humour. Is emotional, supportive, likes luxory, likes to read a lot and can't hold his mouth tight, is involved with projects, good at PR.

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    Abraham Lincoln INTP. (just because I know someone who looks and acts like Honest Abe and is an INTP.)

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    A.Lincoln was an EXTROVERTED intuitive type, not introverted. As for his wife that bored him so much, she was most probably ENFj (Mentor).

    The Myers-Briggs typology sometimes confuses introversion and intuition, at least, their definitions are similar.
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    Ah. You're probably right. This friend's wife was an INTJ and it was a happy marriage, so maybe he was an ENTP and not INTP. (typing via correlation compounds errors. let that be a warning

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    But who was then Abe Lincoln? ENTP Intuitive and wife ENFJ- relation of Benefit, so he didn't like his wife as much as she loved him.

    Short summary on Extroversion and Introversion.

    MBTI says that Introvesrion and Extroversion are the circles of energy. Introvert gets the energy from inner world and adresses into inner world. Extrovert gets the energy from outer world and adresses it into outer world.

    Socionics says that extrovert is energy spending type, introvert is energy saving stable type.

    Jung himself didn't know much of it. His concepts were vague and where different in different works. He just noticed this two differences. He sayd there are functions and the prime function was the most differented and irrationality/rationality + extroversion/introversion, were accents of that prime function. At later works he started guessing, that people have secondary function as well. He sayd things like '' Woman having first function Thinking, usually has secondary function Intuition.''

    Eysenck borrowed Jungs extroversion and introversion. He tied this with activity of certain brain area. He suggested that this area is active in introverts and needs to be activated in extraverts. Introverts have it active and they don't need to be active all the time, it might overactivate this. Extroverts need to activate it and thats why they are mobile.

    Eysenck also suggested that this brain area needs for activity other people around. So he thought introverts where quiet loners (brain area allready active) and extroverts where talkactive people (needing to activate this area).

    And that's how the stereotypes of party hard extroverts and uninteresting wall flowers introverts was born. MBTIs concept of E/I in internet is quite the same. But they tied it with theory, that extroverts have stronger left side of the brain dominance and the introverts have more stronger right side of the brain dminance and also that introverts have more connections between the both hemispheres.

    In modern days, Eysencks theory was connected with the theory of Big 5. The 5 scales of personality, which don't change in time.Happy person according to that is, what we call high EQ extrovert (extrovert in common language). Hope, that I'm right at this Big 5 thing.

    If I'm wrong, then correct me!
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    There may be a problem. It seems that you sometimes confuse socionic definitions and Myers-Briggs definitions, they are somewhat different. And the most important, ENTj in socionics is absolutely not the same as in MBTI. According to MBTI, ENTJ is an intellectual dictator, like Napoleon. According to socionics, he/she is a quick, practice-focused, chasing for new opportunities intellectual.
    I don't adhere at all to type descriptions set forth in MBTi, and am very familiar (I have both a close friend and a cousin who hold this type) with the ENTj type as observed by socionists. The impression of Nixon as a humorless tryannical type is something that was put forth by the media, and is not an accurate portrait of him. Nixon was someone who, when he came to power, was actually well-liked by the american populace. The idea that Nixon was a tryant was something the leftist media portrayed him as in order to further their political agenda after the watergate scandal which was, in retrospect, not that big a deal. This was actually a man who had a good sense of humor, but who was unsure about the american people's disposition towards him, as seen in his interviews with the media. Andrew Jackson is an example of an ESTp American president, and his populist ideals (something Nixon did not share) are what, in my mind, demonstrate an ESTp mindset towards leadership ("make the people love me by telling them what they want to hear"). As an ISFj, it would be unlikely that the Nixon administration would have demonstrated the kind of adventurous spirit (travelling to China, the Soviet Union, all 50 US states, the space program, etc...) that his administration displayed. I will lay out a few Nixon quotes, and you can tell me what you think...

    "Sure there are dishonest men in local government. But there are dishonest men in national government too."

    " A riot is a spontaneous outburst. A war is subject to advance planning. "

    "A public man must never forget that he loses his usefulness when he as an individual, rather than his policy, becomes the issue. "

    "The student who invades an administration building, roughs up a dean, rifles the files and issues "nonnegotiable demands" may have some of his demands met by a permissive university administration. But the greater his "victory" the more he will have undermined the security of his own rights."

    "Let us move from the era of confrontation to the era of negotiation."

    "Politics would be a helluva good business if it weren't for the goddamned people."

    "I have never been a quitter. To leave office before my term is completed is opposed to every instinct in my body. But as president I must put the interests of America first Therefore, I shall resign the presidency effective at noon tomorrow."

    " If an individual wants to be a leader and isn't controversial, that means he never stood for anything."

    "Never say no when a client asks for something, even if it is the moon. You can always try, and anyhow there is plenty of time afterwards to explain that it was not possible."

    "President Johnson and I have a lot in common. We were both born in small towns and we're both fortunate in the fact that we think we married above ourselves."

    I am most certainly less educated in the theories of socionics than you, but these do not sound to me like populist quotes, nor those of a man with out a sense of humor. As with Americans typing Russian leaders, it is easy for non-americans to fall prey to stereo-types set forth in foreign presses and even the US press concerning our leaders over here. I am certainly open to criticism conerning my analysis of Nixon, but it should be said that I abandonded Myers-Briggs descriptions (I have read Gifts Differing, and Keirsey and wholly disagree with their conlusions) a long time ago, and have studied socionics (anything that I could get my hands on) for the past 6 years, and am well familiar with the differences. I do not mean to sound defensive, as that is not my intention, simply to make it clear to you (as I have immense respect for your writings on socionics), that I do not look to Myers-Briggs in any way for an understanding of type, but may simply have a different (or inferior, depending on how you may look at it) way of interpreting the socionics model and how it affects human behavior.

    Regards,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    A.Lincoln was an EXTROVERTED intuitive type, not introverted. As for his wife that bored him so much, she was most probably ENFj (Mentor).

    The Myers-Briggs typology sometimes confuses introversion and intuition, at least, their definitions are similar.
    I have Lincoln typed as an ENTj. Here are some quotes...

    "Every man is said to have his peculiar ambition. Whether it be true or not, I can say for one that I have no other so great as that of being truly esteemed of my fellow men, by rendering myself worthy of their esteem."

    "Every one desires to live long, but no one would be old. "

    "I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday."

    "I don't like that man. I must get to know him better."

    "I want it said of me by those who knew me best, that I always plucked a thistle and planted a flower where I thought a flower would grow. "

    "If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me, this shop might as well be closed for any other business."

    "Important principles may, and must, be inflexible."

    "Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. "

    "He can compress the most words into the smallest ideas better than any man I ever met. "

    "He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help. "

    "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. "

    "I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts."

    "I can make more generals, but horses cost money."

    "I desire so to conduct the affairs of this administration that if at the end... I have lost every other friend on earth, I shall at least have one friend left, and that friend shall be down inside of me.
    "

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    Andrew Jackson (ESTp)...

    "As long as our government is administered for the good of the people, and is regulated by their will; as long as it secures to us the rights of persons and of property, liberty of conscience and of the press, it will be worth defending."

    "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."

    "No one need think that the world can be ruled without blood. The civil sword shall and must be red and bloody."

    "Peace, above all things, is to be desired, but blood must sometimes be spilled to obtain it on equable and lasting terms."

    "There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it."

    Teddy Roosevelt (ENTp)...
    "A man who is good enough to shed his blood for the country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards."

    "Absence and death are the same - only that in death there is no suffering."

    "Appraisals are where you get together with your team leader and agree what an outstanding member of the team you are, how much your contribution has been valued, what massive potential you have and, in recognition of all this, would you mind having your salary halved."

    "Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. "

    "Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

    "No great intellectual thing was ever done by great effort."

    "Nine-tenths of wisdom consists in being wise in time. "

    Franklin Roosevelt (ENFj)...

    "A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward."

    "Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort. "

    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough. "

    "If you treat people right they will treat you right... ninety percent of the time."

    "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."

    "Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are."

    "A nation that destroys it's soils destroys itself. Forests are the lungs of our land, purifying the air and giving fresh strength to our people. "

    John Q. Adams (INTp)...

    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."

    "Patience and perseverance have a magical affect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish."

    "Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it."

    "All men profess honesty as long as they can. To believe all men honest would be folly. To believe none so is something worse."

    Herbert Hoover (ENTj)...

    "A good many things go around in the dark besides Santa Claus. "

    "Blessed are the young for they shall inherit the national debt."

    "Competition is not only the basis of protection to the consumer, but is the incentive to progress."

    "Freedom is the open window through which pours the sunlight of the human spirit and human dignity."

    "It is a paradox that every dictator has climbed to power on the ladder of free speech. Immediately on attaining power each dictator has suppressed all free speech except his own."

    "My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl, a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for service and honor. In no other land could a boy from a country village, without inheritance or influential friends, look forward with unbounded hope."

    "No public man can be just a little crooked."

    "Once upon a time my political opponents honored me as possessing the fabulous intellectual and economic power by which I created a worldwide depression all by myself."

    "When there is a lack of honor in government, the morals of the whole people are poisoned."

    "You will expect me to discuss the late election. Well, as nearly as I can learn, we did not have enough votes on our side."

    "Words without actions are the assassins of idealism."

    Lyndon B. Johnson (ESFp?)...(Love to have feedback on these.)

    "Being president is like being a jackass in a hailstorm. There's nothing to do but to stand there and take it."

    "Did you ever think that making a speech on economics is a lot like pissing down your leg? It seems hot to you, but it never does to anyone else."

    "I don't believe I'll ever get credit for anything I do in foreign affairs, no matter how successful it is, because I didn't go to Harvard."

    "I have learned that only two things are necessary to keep one's wife happy. First, let her think she's having her own way. And second, let her have it."

    " I want to make a policy statement. I am unabashedly in favor of women."

    "I'd rather give my life than be afraid to give it."

    "If one morning I walked on top of the water across the Potomac River, the headline that afternoon would read: "President Can't Swim."

    "If you let a bully come in your front yard, he'll be on your porch the next day and the day after that he'll rape your wife in your own bed."

    John F. Kennedy (ENTp)...

    "A revolution is coming - a revolution which will be peaceful if we are wise enough; compassionate if we care enough; successful if we are fortunate enough - but a revolution which is coming whether we will it or not. We can affect its character, we cannot alter its inevitability."

    "A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Today's military rejects include tomorrow's hard-core unemployed."

    "A man may die, nations may rise and fall, but an idea lives on."

    "A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures - and that is the basis of all human morality."

    "All this will not be finished in the first hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first thousand days, nor in the life of this administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin."

    "Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."

    "Do you realize the responsibility I carry? I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."

    "Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners, and necessity has made us allies. Those whom God has so joined together, let no man put asunder."

    "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."

    "I am the man who accompanied Jacqueline Kennedy to Paris, and I have enjoyed it."

    "I don't think the intelligence reports are all that hot. Some days I get more out of the New York Times."

    "I just received the following wire from my generous Daddy - "Dear Jack, Don't buy a single vote more than is necessary. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for a landslide.""

    " I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered at the White House-with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

    " If I had to live my life over again, I would have a different father, a different wife and a different religion."

    I'll do more if anyone wants to see 'em. I have them for pretty much every president. Love to hear some thoughts.

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    Dmitri Lytov's Avatar
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    To understand the difference between ENTp (Intuition of Possibilities + Structural Logic) and ENTj (Practical Logic + Time Intuition), let us compare John F. Kennedy with other leaders which, according to socionics, belonged to the types ENTj and ENFj. The Time Intuition function entails certain kind of “prophetism”, or “preacher's behavior”. Such people believe in magnificent perspectives, and they try to transfer their belief to other people, even when the situation is really bad and gloomy. Hitler, Reagan, Martin Luther King, Ceausescu, Trotsky, Goebbels, John F. Kennedy, Boris Yeltsin, Tony Blair, Che Guevara – some of these politicians have bad reputation, some are adored and admired, but they all have something important, a common trait that unites them all – their capability to “infect” people with belief in the future, even when several minutes ago people were much dissatisfied of them. This is what is called Time Intuition (Introverted Intuition) in socionics – this is the intuition of prophets (for introverted types, INTp and INFp, this function means a role of a "prophet in a desert", because they express their thoughts really vaguely).

    On the other hand, the Intuition of Possibilities (extroverted intuition) is something else. It does not inspire people; it rather makes them thoughtful, pensive, because it deals with alternatives, not with “the only possible correct decisions”. This is because this function is extroverted – it tends to extension of alternatives, not to reducing them. Sometimes bearers of the extroverted intuition are thinkers and journalists who mock the existing order, not inspire people for great feats and sacrifice (in fact, extroverted intuition HATES sacrifice). I think that Abraham Lincoln was either ENTp or ENFp, because his behavior was not the one of a prophet – on the contrary, even when he was much dissatisfied with somebody (e.g. Ulysses Grant), he wanted to find positive motives in his actions.

    I will write some words about Jacqueline Kennedy and Barbra Streysand later – now I have to work.
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    Ok. I see your point well here. Intuition of time (Ni) does indeed manifest itself as prophetical sort of perception of the world and the future, and I have always attributed this to ENTjs, ENFjs, INFps, and INTps' ability to read internal conflict and disorder whether in people (combined with Fe) or in an impersonal entity (such as the economy). However, I have a question for you...Robespierre, Jefferson, and other revolutionary types, did themselves motivate others by their ideals, and were more or less rigidly married to a singular vision of how they thought things SHOULD be. The level of sacrifice they inevitably made was perhaps debateable, but Jefferson WAS the author of the Declaration of Independence (something that he could hardly have avoided had the British won the war), and Robespierre gave his life (although perhaps unintentionally) for the French revolution along with, perhaps, his sanity. It is true that Ne types will rarely promote others making sacrifices in the name of a viewpoint (they let the Ni types do that for them), but they nevertheless are willing to dedicate themselves to the pursuit of that particular ideal, and are therefore not going to discourage others from following what they believe to be true and right. Benjamin Franklin, an ENTp (at least from my perspective), also signed the Declaration of Independence, something that would have surely ended his livelihood had the results of the war been different, like Jefferson. Perhaps it is fair to say that Ne types are somewhat more selective about what they are willing to sacrifice for, but I do not believe that they will avoid making that sacrifice, should they see that ideal as just and for the greater good. Kennedy did speak a lot about sacrifice, and inspired the nation to feel good about itself. He has always come across to me as a man who saw potential in a nation, and was able to make others see it too, something that Ne's do very well in my opinion. He was not as dogmatic in his views, like Reagan, Hitler, and Guevara, which I think is why SO many people responded to him as a president. He worked fairly well with his opponents, as opposed to crushing them under his weight, as Hitler and Reagan did. ENTjs and ENFjs are more than willing to use whatever force they have available to them to make their enemies capitulate, whereas Kennedy did not, making concessions (such as in the Cuban Missile Crisis agreeing to remove missiles in Turkey), in order to bring the crisis to the most logical conclusion (avoiding nuclear war). It is true that the military moves that Kennedy made during the crisis would suggest that he was trying to force the soviets to capitulate, but it is well documented that these moves were HEAVILY influenced by his advisors, and were not decisions he readily, or easily made. ENTjs, although not tryants, in my experience, need to project a constant image of control and power (as dictated by Se). It is not my opinion that Kennedy was a president comfortable in his position of power, not being particularly happy with some of the decisions excersing the power of the US (such as Vietnam which he wanted to pull out of before his assasination) he made. I don't know...perhaps we have different impressions of Kennedy as a president, but I see him as being very different from Reagan or Hitler as a leader, whose demonstrations of Ni values are clear.

    "The one unchangeable certainty is that nothing is unchangeable or certain."

    " The political world is stimulating. It's the most interesting thing you can do. It beats following the dollar."

    "The unity of freedom has never relied on uniformity of opinion."

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    OK, now I see at least one problem in the discussion with you.

    We are discussing PSYCHOLOGICAL types. But you, from my viewpoint, judge famous people by INDIRECT manifestations of their psychology, such as political views, etc. Why cannot we switch back to psychology? May we restart the discussion from this point? In which facts does Kennedy's characteristics contradict to this description:

    http://socioniko.narod.ru/en/1.1.types/pt.html ?
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    Fair enough. I can see JFK being an ENTj. My typing of him as an ENTp came much from contrasting him with Reagan and other famous ENTjs (not typed by me), but as I'm no expert on JFK, I will concede your point. I still disagree that Jaqueline Kennedy was ISFj, but that's another issue. In my defense, I do not type based on political views (these are too subjective and influenced by external factors), but rather the way in which a person acts, trying to derive a decision making process from these actions. As I've done some reading on JFK, I can certainly see why ENTj would be the most lilely option, and therefore, as I do not have any way of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that is type is not ENTj, I will concede to your experience in the matter of socionics. However, I am still left with a dilemna...ENTp and leadership style...how does it manifest itself, if not with an attempt to bring new ideas to those that he/she is leading, and with also an air of dynamicism?

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    OK. Maybe later I, or somebody else of socionists, can prepare an overview article about John and Jacqueline.
    And this evening (or, if I convert Russian time into American - next morning) I will try to analyze Richard Nixon.

    But can you please tell what in your opinion in Jacqueline's behavior, or appearance, or biography contradicts to the version ISFj? Maybe I should focus on these facts when I will prepare my research?
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    I would first say that I completely understand why you have Jacqueline Kennedy typed as an ISFj (ESI). She was most certainly...

    *an introvert
    *a feeler
    *a sensor

    Now...is she the rational version of this, or the irrational version. In reading the description of the ESI by Victor Gulenko, I see very little that would contradict what we know about Jackie Kennedy. She was indeed
    *Polite
    *Tactful
    *Known for her aesthetic taste

    The rest of that paragraph? Who knows. There's little to no indication in the bios that I've read in the past couple of days about her that would indicate that she was concerned with morality and other Fi traits. That's not to say that there isn't evidence out there (although her acceptance of her husbands philandering might indicate a lack of concern with this), I just haven't seen it.

    "Emotional barrier". In a new group of people he is usually a quiet, modest person. He watches and listens in order to understand whether he can attract people to himself and to his ideal of human relations. If he cannot, then he keeps on silence or even leaves. Among those whom he considers friends he is active and talkative. Friends are those who accept his ethical norms. He submits his emotions to the emotions of the others: among cheerful people he is cheerful as well, among angry he too is angry.
    Possibly. She was quiet. But ISFps in intellectual surroundings tend to react the same way, although they will not change their emotional disposition to fit the crowd, but rather the other way around. Hard to say which Jacqueline Kennedy did. She loved throwing parties, and she loved having lots of artists, scientists, musicians, etc...around. She seemed to be able to hold her own in these situations, something that ISFps do well, being great diplomats and interlocutors.

    Enemy must envy. He never reveals his wrath and fury, but remains emphatically polite and self-satisfied. Only a good friend can see him bedraggled and not sufficiently careful. He is always "totally buttoned up", internally mobilized, extremely intolerant to untidiness and disorder.
    This would fit what I know of Jackie Kenendy.

    Sexual liberties are not for him. He keeps fidelity to his spouse not for him/her, but for the sake of self-respect. For a woman of this type a thought that somewhere is a man who "has had" her is unbearable. He dislikes a lot, when somebody snoops about his talents, potential capabilities or boasts about own capabilities in front of other people.
    Impossible to say what Jackie Kennedy thought about sex. Did she come across as a sexually liberated individual? Well, there are some naked pictures of her sunbathing on Aristotle Onassis's yacht. Does that count? Just kidding. To be honest, I can't address this, as I haven't seen the evidence one way of the other.

    He lives in the "here and now" and does not like to wait. He prefers the kinds of work that he can complete quickly and enjoy the result. While others consider him punctual, he considers himself being always late. Due dates make him really nervous. This is why The Entrepreneur, his dual, having bought tickets to a theater, will keep it secret until the last day.
    First part? Seems to me that the restoration projects that she was involved in were time consuming and did not happen quickly. However, this is a relative term. How quick is quick? ISFps like to finish projects quickly as well, but the type of projects they will choose would be vastly different. It is true that ISFps are more likely to take on multiple projects at once, often not finishing them, something that ISFjs are not inclined to do. The myriad of restoration projects that Jackie Kennedy was involved in during her time as first lady might suggest irrational, but it's hard to say.

    He expresses love through actions rather than words; however, he does not like to invent tasks for himself and in everyday activities gladly submits to his partner's will. At any time he can leave one task and switch to another, if his partner wishes him to. He may even sacrifice himself for society. For instance, in his family he can bear responsibility for all everyday material needs, when his partner performs a socially important position.
    This would fit in with what I know about Jackie Kennedy. Now for a contrast, I will do the same for the ISFp profile...

    He is amicable, always appears optimistic and in a good spirits. He does not impose his will on others, hiding his real feelings. He is always equally warm, caring, smiling. He does not like to ask and moreover to demand favors, and strives to satisfy his needs through his own efforts.
    This would fit with the american public's perception of Jackie Kennedy.

    He appreciates all the facets of life, finely experiences nature and the arts. He is capable of remembering and reproducing emotions once experienced. Ayvazovsky painted his seascapes in a room with dark red walls and windows looking out in the opposite direction of the sea. He loves pleasures and knows how to bestow them - an artist in loving.
    This would describe Jackie Kennedy as she dedicated most of her life to pursuing artistic pleasures, as first lady, and also as a publisher. She loved fashion (a type of art), as well as nature, as demonstrated by her early childhood love of horses and her begining the White House Rose Garden.

    Attentive and considerate. Tries not to infringe on others' comfort. His very quick and consciously controlled emotional reactions aim to test or alter the emotions of the others. This results in many jokes - if they are out of turn he immediately takes them back. He is permanently in the process of emotional creativity, searching for the most effective ways to activate his partner. With exceptional ardor he manipulates the moods of his friends and relatives.
    Hard to say. Her popularilty with foreign diplomats and the american public would certainly not disprove this.

    4. Peacemaker. He dislikes to quarrel, say "no", break undesired acquaintances - this is why he avoids sticky people. He needs a partner, who under certain circumstances will also not quarrel, but just slam the door and leave. This is just how his dual, Don Quixote, will act. It's noteworthy that Alexander Dumas (the great French novelist) picked Ida Ferrier out of the many of his mistresses, because she kept him at a longer leash than the others.
    Peacemaker? Yes. The rest, hard to say.

    Who needs what? He remarks people's needs, what motivates them, enjoys persuading everyone and winning them over to his side. But he needs his dual in order to know, whom he must convince and of what, because his dual possesses insights into potential capabilities of people, ideas, and undertakings.
    She won over the american public. Very quickly in fact. Nothing there that would indicate she is not an ISFp, only that her husband, as an ENTj, would not have provided those things to her. But, I still hang on to my suspicion that JFK was ENTp, not ENTj. But, that's a different argument.

    He does not like to make people aware of his existence while there is no need of him. He strives neither to stand out as an advanced man nor to lag too far behind. He does not like to compete, shows initiative only on his own "territory". He prefers that in his family initiative and responsibility belong to his partner, even if he is the one to carry everything out. An interesting fact: before Alexander Dumas The Father began writing "The Three Musketeers", "The Count of Monte-Cristo" and many other books, his secret co-author Max wrote their drafts.
    The first line is very true of Jackie Kennedy. She stayed out of the pulic eye for many years after her husband's death, as her role was over. The family issue is hard to say. I'd be inclined to view that as evidence she was not an ISFp, but it's a little too personal for me to be 100% sure on. I'd have to see more information.

    "A tender calf is nursed by two cows." When he feels lousy, he is compelled to hide somewhere and recuperate. His mood is spoiled making him incapable of manipulating people, without this communication seems meaningless to him.
    Jackie hid from the american public after her husbands death, she ran off to Greece. Was she someone capable of manipulating the moods of others? I don't see anything here that would contradict her type as ISFp. I see more of her in this description that in the ISFj, but I certainly am not going to discount the possibility that I am wrong in my perceptions of her.

  20. #20
    Creepy-an ENTJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    ENTJ in Keirsey is a dictator without the sence of humor. Socionics ENTj is a practical joker. Has a great sence of humour. Is emotional, supportive, likes luxory, likes to read a lot and can't hold his mouth tight, is involved with projects, good at PR.
    Hi! I'm an ENTJ and that's just me. So much that people accustomed to the mbti would think I'm borderline ENTP. When I have a strong J and Te for sure... The socionics ENTJ is spot on.

  21. #21
    Creepy-

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    George W. Bush- ENTJ
    Bill Clinton- ENTJ
    George H. Bush- ENFJ
    Ronald Reagan- ENTJ
    Jimmy Carter- INTJ
    Gerald Ford- ESTJ
    Richard Nixon- ESTJ
    Lyndon Johnson- ESTP
    John Kennedy- ENTJ
    Dwight Eisenhower- ENTJ
    Harry Turman- ESTJ
    Franklin Roosevelt- ENTJ
    Teddy Roosevelt- ENTP
    Abe Lincoln- INTJ

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