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Thread: Type differences between ISFj-ESIs and ISTj-LSIs

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    Default Type differences between ISFj-ESIs and ISTj-LSIs

    what are the main differences in your experience between the two?
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    ISTjs are attracted to Fe dominance. An ISFj may find a Fe dominant attractive, but it's in spite of the Fe, not because of it. ISFjs are "colder".

    ISFjs know who their friends are and don't doubt the strength of their relationship with their friends, even if they don't see each other for a very long time. An ISTj needs Fe reassurance to know that people have feelings for them.

    ISTjs like theatrical dramatics. ISFjs don't have much patience for it.

    ISTjs are Aristocratic, ISFjs are Democratic. ISTjs are Positivists, ISFjs are Negativists. ISFjs are construct creating, ISTjs are emotive. ISFjs are resource protecting, ISTjs are interest protecting.

    Both believe in harsh punishments, but ISTjs are harsh toward people who don't behave according to how a logical system or system of power says that they should, and ISFjs are harsh toward people who don't behave according to how their personal system of subjective ethics says that they should.

    ISFjs don't have much of an interest in social events or being socially successful, but ISTjs appreciate someone who understands how social status works and how to do things to increase their social status and successfully "rub elbows" with and get in good with important and powerful people. This aspect of their dual seeking may not be all that obvious as a young adult though.

    When an ISFj makes a statement as though it's logical, if it's challenged, in the end they'll back it up with ethical reasoning. When an ISTj makes a statement as though it's ethical, if it's challenged, in the end they'll back it up with logical reasoning.

    Have you read the ENFj/ISTj relationship description? Can you have this ISxj read it as well as the ENTj/ISFj duality description and ask her which sounds more attractive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ...When an ISFj makes a statement as though it's logical, if it's challenged, in the end they'll back it up with ethical reasoning. When an ISTj makes a statement as though it's ethical, if it's challenged, in the end they'll back it up with logical reasoning...
    With the ISTJ... Is it that...

    1) Their ethics are based on logic? So they may have a logical reason behind the ethical statement, but as soon as it is challenged, then however emotional it may have seemed at first, it is revealed as being very logic-based beneath all of that?

    ~or~

    2) Their ethics are based on emotion, but they don't feel as comfortable using that langauge? So they might make an initial ethical statement for emotional reasons, but as soon as it is challenged they don't know how to defend it (without logic) or aren't comfortable arguing any point really without logic...?

    ???

    3) A little of both? Something entirely different?

    --------

    Another thing... Is it that an F would base their ethics on emotion (feelings that tell them what is right and wrong) where as a T might base their eithics on something logical (like ideas of justice or fairness)?

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    It's a combination of weak ethics in general, their role, and their first function. They'll say something that sounds like Fi sometimes, and then when asked to explain it thoroughly they'll try to use explanations that sound like more Fi, then when asked to explain those explanations... well, it'll eventually break down until it's pretty much just Ti.

    ISFjs do the opposite. They'll say something that sounds like Ti, and then when you ask them to explain it thoroughly they'll come up with more Ti sounding stuff, but when you get right down to the root of it, their underlying reasoning is more Fi than anything.
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    Okay, so it is about the underlying *reasons* which is why in the end it reflects their type...

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    the way I tell them apart is what kind of humor they have. ISTj will have the same sort of humor as me in that absurd, awkward or funny wordings would be humorous, especially dealing with mannerisms of people (fe). Expressive, emotional people will be normal for an IxTj, annoying for the ISFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    the way I tell them apart is what kind of humor they have. ISTj will have the same sort of humor as me in that absurd, awkward or funny wordings would be humorous, especially dealing with mannerisms of people (fe). Expressive, emotional people will be normal for an IxTj, annoying for the ISFj.
    ISFjs know who their friends are and don't doubt the strength of their relationship with their friends, even if they don't see each other for a very long time. An ISTj needs Fe reassurance to know that people have feelings for them.

    ISTjs like theatrical dramatics. ISFjs don't have much patience for it.
    Yeah, those are good.

    ISFjs don't have much of an interest in social events or being socially successful, but ISTjs appreciate someone who understands how social status works and how to do things to increase their social status and successfully "rub elbows" with and get in good with important and powerful people. This aspect of their dual seeking may not be all that obvious as a young adult though.
    I'd say ISFjs, being ethical types, are generally somewhat better at dealing with social stuff than ISTjs, so are less preoccupied with it. But I see you're referring more to the "success" part of it, and I agree then.

    ISTjs are Aristocratic, ISFjs are Democratic. ISTjs are Positivists, ISFjs are Negativists. ISFjs are construct creating, ISTjs are emotive. ISFjs are resource protecting, ISTjs are interest protecting.
    Sooo these are FAR harder to distiguish.

    Ex. ISTjs are emotivists, BUT ISFjs are feeling types, and take an ISFj girl and an ISTj girl, the ISFj girl will much more likely be the more emotional one (not expressively so - my ISTj father is more expressive than my ISFj mother but his expressivness looks more "forced"). Positivist/Negativist: this dichotomy is a bit hard because there are positive-outlook enneagram types, positive body types, etc

    So if you have a negativist with a positive outlook E-type and positive body type. You might hear typical negativist words, but not much else of negative from that person. This can be confusing.

    Both believe in harsh punishments, but ISTjs are harsh toward people who don't behave according to how a logical system or system of power says that they should, and ISFjs are harsh toward people who don't behave according to how their personal system of subjective ethics says that they should.
    That's more of a personal preference than anything. Both my parents are ISTj and ISFj but I've never been harshly punished. In fact they've always given me really a lot of freedom. But I see my aunt being an ISFj and she always punishes her children (I hate her). Also an ISTj father of a friend of mine does. I've known young ISFjs that thought discipline was the key, and others that were very tolerant. Generally - this might be related to level of health more so than type, what do you think?

    In regard to ISFj coldness...this might just be up to individual ISFjs. This description clarifies:

    Character the Keeper is rich with internal conflicts and the latent problems. If at it prevails Storge, it is less obstinate and is basic. The keeper - is kind, tender and compliant. But... Only in trifles. In the main thing it appears unshakable. The family for it on the first place, and if the satellite will not justify its expectations, it will show the type of love - Viktoria, showing inflexibility. Its will is shown nedemonstrativno, but much is done how it wants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    That's more of a personal preference than anything. Both my parents are ISTj and ISFj but I've never been harshly punished. In fact they've always given me really a lot of freedom. But I see my aunt being an ISFj and she always punishes her children (I hate her). Also an ISTj father of a friend of mine does. I've known young ISFjs that thought discipline was the key, and others that were very tolerant. Generally - this might be related to level of health more so than type, what do you think?
    Yes, I think it is, I don't see how punishing would be type related. It's rather an unhealthy way of expressing aggession and indication of low self-esteem.

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    I'm not talking about punishing people or child rearing (especially level or strictness). I'm talking about the wrong doing of people in the world, the foolish mistakes of people in the world, etc.
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    I wouldn't use the words "kind, tender, and compliant" in an ISFj description. While it may be true on some level, it's not at all a good way to recognize them or one of their defining characteristics. And a type who values Fe would most likely consider them cold. Even an ethical subtype is "cold" compared to most people.

    ISTjs are emotivists, BUT ISFjs are feeling types, and take an ISFj girl and an ISTj girl, the ISFj girl will much more likely be the more emotional one
    I disagree. If someone is considering the emotional atmosphere and just being emotive in general, they're most likely not ISFj. Even a Fi subtype is unmistakably construct creating, more so than any other ethical type. They are also very "in charge" of their inner emotions compared to most types.

    FDG, you seem to have an image of ISFjs that's a lot softer than the image I have of them (even the ethical subtypes).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    FDG, you seem to have an image of ISFjs that's a lot softer than the image I have of them (even the ethical subtypes).
    Definitely so, they're IxFx after all. I mean, maybe I'm just friendly towards them so they treat me well in return. The typical "cold" type is an ESTj imho.

    ISFjs are kind tender compliant with people they like. Just like everybody! These are basic rules of human interaction, really. Even ISTps are kind tender and compliant with their girlfriends, INTps, ISTjs...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    FDG, you seem to have an image of ISFjs that's a lot softer than the image I have of them (even the ethical subtypes).
    Definitely so, they're IxFx after all. I mean, maybe I'm just friendly towards them so they treat me well in return. The typical "cold" type is an ESTj imho.
    Holy shit. There's a WORLD of difference between IxFjs and IxFps, especially ISFjs! Okay, I really don't think we're talking about the same types here. ISFjs are definitely colder than ESTjs, generally speaking. ESTjs try to be friendly toward others and the "good guy", and they try to provide Si comfort. ISFjs are cold and harsh toward most others. They treat the important people in their lives well, but that's not what we're talking about here.

    ISFjs are kind tender compliant with people they like. Just like everybody! These are basic rules of human interaction, really. Even ISTps are kind tender and compliant with their girlfriends, INTps, ISTjs...
    IxTps are tender with their mates, no question about that. ISFjs, like I said, treat their mates well, but I wouldn't call them tender or compliant. And their kindness is more of a "tough love" sort of kindness than a soft, tender kindness. They're definitely softer and more relaxed with their mates than they are with other people, but "kind, tender, and compliant" are still NOT in the top 10 words I would use to describe them (especially tender and compliant).

    That description sounds like an outsider's attempt to say something nice about them so the description doesn't sound biased against them. Do you know the type of the author? It's also possible that something was lost in translation... I dunno, I'd like to hear Expat's and some other people's opinions about this.
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    We simply live in different worlds, then, really.

    NO HEALTH PERSON IS COLD AND HARSH. Get this? An unhealthy, bitter ISFj is cold and harsh. An heathy, happy ISFj is, well, happy and pleasant.

    Also, remember it's "tender and comliant" in trifles. It's like you ask and ISFj "let's go to dinner, i'll pay" and what they can say? yes of course. that's being compliant. and hugging their boyfriends/children etc? that's being tender. I have seen unhealth ISFjs (my aunt) being very cold (I always have huge conflicts with her), other ISFjs being in between, depending on how life treated them. Just like everybody...

    many isfjs would like to look like they don't care and are harsh towards everybody but the actions speak much louder than their bitching, usually

    yes they'll joke sometimes about cutting your dick if you behave badly, but if you just ignore it and start making out with them in public as a form of punishment, they learn the lesson

    ALL the ESTjs I know are generally pretty quick to anger and very bossy. Might just be that I conflict with them for some other reason, dunno.
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    btw, *I* don't think ISFjs are "cold and harsh" when I'm talking to or dealing with them. I don't really think about that sort of thing, unless someone is being too friendly and compliant. However, Alphas and many Betas/Deltas tend to find ISFjs cold/harsh/unfriendly though. Because many people think of them as being that way, I wouldn't use opposite words to describe them. Even in their interactions with those they're close too, they're still not as "friendly" or warm as a lot of people are with most of the people they come in contact with.
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    I agree about ESTjs, but I still think they're generally more outwardly friendly and warm to the random people they come in contact with throughout their day than ISFjs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    btw, *I* don't think ISFjs are "cold and harsh" when I'm talking to or dealing with them. I don't really think about that sort of thing, unless someone is being too friendly and compliant. However, Alphas and many Betas/Deltas tend to find ISFjs cold/harsh/unfriendly though. Because many people think of them as being that way, I wouldn't use opposite words to describe them. Even in their interactions with those they're close too, they're still not as "friendly" or warm as a lot of people are with most of the people they come in contact with.
    Ah ok now I understand, but I don't consider the open gestures/stupid embraces/false hugging/social rituals/"heeey my old friend (even when i have known you for just 1 week)/etc to be "friendliness" but mostly "annoyance"
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    yes they'll joke sometimes about cutting your dick if you behave badly, but if you just ignore it and start making out with them in public as a form of punishment, they learn the lesson


    This is really twisted, IMO. But, hey, if the S&M stuff gets yer engine running... something about that "Oh you've been naughty and I have to punish you" that makes my skin crawl.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    yes they'll joke sometimes about cutting your dick if you behave badly, but if you just ignore it and start making out with them in public as a form of punishment, they learn the lesson


    This is really twisted, IMO. But, hey, if the S&M stuff gets yer engine running... something about that "Oh you've been naughty and I have to punish you" that makes my skin crawl.
    Nothing like that is acted upon, really. I do find it very uncomfortable, that's why I embarass them so that they don't keep on saying that.

    ps. (just sayin' mind you) you keep on assuming I actually think about the psychology behind these actions as some kind of game...really, I just do things without really thinking much about them, most of the time. So it's not "you've been naughty and I must punish you" because that would more likely just made me laugh more than my skin crawl. It's more like "uh now im going to embarass you so you stop with this". Maybe the psychology is similar...but it ain't pleasurable for any of the parties, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    yes they'll joke sometimes about cutting your dick if you behave badly, but if you just ignore it and start making out with them in public as a form of punishment, they learn the lesson


    This is really twisted, IMO. But, hey, if the S&M stuff gets yer engine running... something about that "Oh you've been naughty and I have to punish you" that makes my skin crawl.
    Nothing like that is acted upon, really. I do find it very uncomfortable, that's why I embarass them so that they don't keep on saying that.

    ps. (just sayin' mind you) you keep on assuming I actually think about the psychology behind these actions as some kind of game...really, I just do things without really thinking much about them, most of the time. So it's not "you've been naughty and I must punish you" because that would more likely just made me laugh more than my skin crawl. It's more like "uh now im going to embarass you so you stop with this". Maybe the psychology is similar...but it ain't pleasurable for any of the parties, lol
    Funny. I guess I always tend to reflexively associate/attribute the psychology behind actions: Always forget that most people don't.

    It's my way to describe why some actions, statements prompt my reactions. I usually experience instantaneous reactions and blurt out my first thought. Or otherwise get immediately uncomfortable and can't shake the feeling. Should I get too many of these negative impressions (I consider them "red flags") from someone, they'll quickly be on my short list of people to avoid.
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