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    If I told you that I am definitely NOT an ENTj/LIE, which type would you guess for me?

    Fair warning -- I am not questioning my type. If someone seriously thinks I am not LIE and has valid arguments I will obviously consider it. But I am still of the view that I am LIE.

    But my question now is: let us say that I would tell you that I am not LIE. LIE is out of the question. Which type would you choose?

    To those who are convinced I am LIE, the question can be phrased as, which is my second most likely type after ENTj?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    lol I just can't resist quoting this bit...
    ...To those who are convinced I am a LIE...
    ok so I changed it a little

    ESTj #2 but I don't really have reasons or want to argue about it. I think you're ENTj.

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    ESTj, INTx... something along those lines. You're not the most personable dude I've ever encountered, but you know your shit and seem very successful in your real-life endeavours.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Ok so two for ESTj so far.

    @Bionicgoat thanks, and no need to give arguments -- that wouldn't make sense if I am already skewing the question.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    ESTj, INTx... something along those lines. You're not the most personable dude I've ever encountered, but you know your shit and seem very successful in your real-life endeavours.
    yeah, i was thinking the exact same thing. ESTj, INTx.
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    If you weren't ENTj, the only other type I could see would be ESTj.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    If I told you that I am definitely NOT an ENTj/LIE, which type would you guess for me?

    Fair warning -- I am not questioning my type. If someone seriously thinks I am not LIE and has valid arguments I will obviously consider it. But I am still of the view that I am LIE.

    But my question now is: let us say that I would tell you that I am not LIE. LIE is out of the question. Which type would you choose?

    To those who are convinced I am LIE, the question can be phrased as, which is my second most likely type after ENTj?
    INTp, ESTj
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    ESTJ

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    estj. but it doesn't really fit.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Everyone has almost the same replies.

    But I agree. ESTj/INTp/INTj But they all don't sound right.
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    INTp or ENFj... ENFj over ESTj! ENFj wouldn't fit though with the amount of time being exposed to Expat's posts. A weird question, seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    INTp or ENFj... ENFj over ESTj!
    haha i nearly wrote that and then just said, "no, no," in my head.
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    you know i dont know why i said ENFj over ESTj. let's just say INTp or ESTj.

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    For Expat, going from his posts, the second most likely would be INTp, just because of the nature of the content of his writings, and his somewhat reserved nature (though I hear he talks nonstop in person).

    ESTj doesn't make sense. Where has there ever been any Si content?

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    For Expat, going from his posts, the second most likely would be INTp, just because of the nature of the content of his writings, and his somewhat reserved nature (though I hear he talks nonstop in person).

    ESTj doesn't make sense. Where has there ever been any Si content?
    there's not any...i think people are just going with the leading Te. and he's clearly extraverted, so in my mind that leaves out intp. *shrugs*

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    I can't see him as being Ip. He seems pretty obviously Ej. That's why I chose ESTj as #2 to ENTj instead of INTp.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I can't see him as being Ip. He seems pretty obviously Ej. That's why I chose ESTj as #2 to ENTj instead of INTp.
    I agree that he's not IP, but I can more easily "pretend" IP for him than Si.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I can't see him as being Ip. He seems pretty obviously Ej. That's why I chose ESTj as #2 to ENTj instead of INTp.
    I agree that he's not IP, but I can more easily "pretend" IP for him than Si.
    I agree. INTp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ESTj.
    Expat, you are so obviously gamma, it almost hurts. Much more animated and energetic in real life, which reminds me of my INTp ex who goes into these energetic moods and talks a lot.

    I think you are ENTj (it's already obvious here, but absolutely certain when talking to you in person). The only other remote possibility is INTp. ESTj is out of the question.
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    what exactly is the point of this excercise?

    i have enormous difficulty assigning any other type to expat because at this point i don't think any other types are even plausible. so what would a "backup" type accomplish?

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    Maybe Expat is "studying" us under the guise that we are studying him?

    Um...

    ????

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    what exactly is the point of this excercise?

    i have enormous difficulty assigning any other type to expat because at this point i don't think any other types are even plausible. so what would a "backup" type accomplish?
    I think he is trying to add some extra proof that he is ENTj or something. Because people continuously find some things about his behavior and character that don't quite fit the ENTj stereotype (and suggest he is not ENTj based on that). However when you turn it around and try to fit the big picture into any other type it doesn't really fit well at all. I don't know if this is his point but this is what I thought. To show that he is fundamentally an ENTj despite the "details" which would suggest otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    what exactly is the point of this excercise?

    i have enormous difficulty assigning any other type to expat because at this point i don't think any other types are even plausible. so what would a "backup" type accomplish?
    I think he is trying to add some extra proof that he is ENTj or something. Because people continuously find some things about his behavior and character that don't quite fit the ENTj stereotype (and suggest he is not ENTj based on that). However when you turn it around and try to fit the big picture into any other type it doesn't really fit well at all. I don't know if this is his point but this is what I thought.
    That's a good idea. I like this idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    The ENTj stereotype is basically a Beta ST so it makes sense if people find that he doesn't fit it.
    So part of it is that no matter how the problem is framed it has no solution...

    I seem to have become obsessed with this problem-framing thing...

    I'll stop yakking.

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    INTp the only other possibility, not really ESTj
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    I can't help but think that all of that is ultimately pointless and misleading, particularly in this instance where Expat does not type himself or others using those particular dichotomies.

    If you want to make an argument about Expat's type based on how he may have mistyped himself, you be better off, you know, actually going by the method/s he uses.
    I don't agree with hkkmr's technique in the post this was referring to, but why must one limit oneself to another's technique of typing him or herself? What if the technique itself is flawed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Well of course it is better to wait for Expat to return and answer this himself, but I can tell you that he does place a very high importance on intertype relations (after all -- that is what Socionics is all about).
    I also question this.
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    Writing style: Clearly > . Lots of examples, focus on empiricism, quantitative facts, criticism, stubbornness. Clearly not an ethical type.

    General life approach: Seemengly clear . Focus on being productive, systematic in work, orderly, planning, no-nonsense attitude, EJ temperament extremely likely, IP temperament out of the question.

    V.I: Square-shaped face, probably endomorphic/mesomorphic body type, absence of clear signs of ectomorphy. Eyes indicative of extraversion. Conclusion: INTj very unlikely type, almost possible to rule out as impossible.

    Conclusion: If not ENTj, then ESTj. If not ENTj or ESTj, then ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Writing style: Clearly > . Lots of examples, focus on empiricism, quantitative facts, criticism, stubbornness. Clearly not an ethical type.

    General life approach: Seemengly clear . Focus on being productive, systematic in work, orderly, planning, no-nonsense attitude, EJ temperament extremely likely, IP temperament out of the question.

    V.I: Square-shaped face, probably endomorphic/mesomorphic body type, absence of clear signs of ectomorphy. Eyes indicative of extraversion. Conclusion: INTj very unlikely type, almost possible to rule out as impossible.

    Conclusion: If not ENTj, then ESTj. If not ENTj or ESTj, then ...
    Phaedrus, I like the way that you did this here with the different categorizes which systematically go about trying to examine and analyze a person's type. This should perhaps be expanded and then incorporated in other approaches to "What's My Type" threads with a clear: Writing Style, Life Approach, V.I., and maybe a few more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    what exactly is the point of this excercise?

    i have enormous difficulty assigning any other type to expat because at this point i don't think any other types are even plausible. so what would a "backup" type accomplish?
    It's not about a "backup" type as far as I am concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    Amusement? Satisfying curiosity?
    A little.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Maybe Expat is "studying" us under the guise that we are studying him?
    That makes me sound so devious. I did say I wasn't doubting my type. I wanted to find out what else people would say and what kind of arguments would be presented, with which focus.


    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I think he is trying to add some extra proof that he is ENTj or something. Because people continuously find some things about his behavior and character that don't quite fit the ENTj stereotype (and suggest he is not ENTj based on that). However when you turn it around and try to fit the big picture into any other type it doesn't really fit well at all. I don't know if this is his point but this is what I thought. To show that he is fundamentally an ENTj despite the "details" which would suggest otherwise.
    That would be the least of my motivations. And as Thunder mentioned, the issue is not that I don't fit the ENTj stereotype, but rather that the stereotype you seem to refer to is flawed. This becomes clear even by reading socionics descriptions such as socioscope's and Stratieveskaya's, and Filatova's.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    nah hkkmr...if you were to meet him in person...you'd see extraversion very very clear...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Maybe Expat is "studying" us under the guise that we are studying him?
    That makes me sound so devious...
    Sorry. didn't intend it taht way...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    If I told you that I am definitely NOT an ENTj/LIE, which type would you guess for me?

    Fair warning -- I am not questioning my type. If someone seriously thinks I am not LIE and has valid arguments I will obviously consider it. But I am still of the view that I am LIE.

    But my question now is: let us say that I would tell you that I am not LIE. LIE is out of the question. Which type would you choose?

    To those who are convinced I am LIE, the question can be phrased as, which is my second most likely type after ENTj?
    I can see why you initially scored INTJ on tests before deciding upon ENTj. *IF* for some reason ENTj turned out to not be your type, (and we also concluded that Renin dichotomies are inaccurate/hard to assess), I'd say INTj. One of the reasons why is because you seem to be more theoretically-oriented for its own sake than the average ENTj. Also, I admire your way of writing - it's so logical and concise. That is a trait I typically admire about INTjs. But it is of course possible that some ENTjs may also have the same virtue at a different strength.

    I worked for an ENTj once for a long time. We clashed all the time but eventually earned each other's deepest respect because of our differing yet legitimate aptitudes (etc). Even though, we truly conflicted on so many things on a philosophical level, it was ridiculous. He also tested as an ENTj, by the way. Anyhow, I can't see how he had an "Si POLR" for example. He was the kind of guy who - according to Kiersey's model - fit the Fieldmarshal role well. He was most interested in networking administrative processes and always eager to "make money." That was his drivign motivation in life - he wanted to ever increase his financial standing, even after attaining a large amount of wealth through an assortment of creative means (creative, as in, creative SCHEDULING and organization and utilization of people they know in order to maximize profits with minimal work on their end, other than planning). He loved the finer things in life - luxuries and such - but primarily for their social impact. The INTjs I've known also can enjoy luxuries, and naturally, enjoy making money and excelling ~ but they seemed more interested in having a variety of experiences of a unique nature. Both types seemed to be "interested in the world" - but ENTjs, based on how well they are fitting in and succeeding in that world so as to "win the game" and the INTjs, perhaps to stimulate their inner world and complex thinking and maybe even sensation-seeking, for something "different." The INTjs were more interested in personal mastery regardless of how society views them; but ENTjs, personal mastery only insofaras they get that recognition from society that they have "achieved" - that is how it appears, anyway. The ENTjs also seem ISO mates who would be their lapdogs, basically - go and get their socks, cook dinner just the way they like it, etc. etc. INTjs are not like that. Some may want things to be done in a precise way - like cleaning or how things are organized - if they do have some preconception. Yet others can be more "live and let live" and want very INdependent mates rather than the dependent ISFjs.

    These are some trends which I have not only read about from other theoretical models, but truly have witnessed among individuals I've known well from both types (some of whom also test so). Not sure if this data is useful or interesting enough for you in your search.

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    LSE, LSI or LII.

    Although people think > for you, is the next possibility, definitely.

    Nonetheless, I always had you down as a no-nonsense person, Expat, who saw no need for what you might see as pointless speculation... until this thread. This makes me think of .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    LSE, LSI or LII.

    Although people think > for you, is the next possibility, definitely.

    Nonetheless, I always had you down as a no-nonsense person, Expat, who saw no need for what you might see as pointless speculation... until this thread. This makes me think of .
    this is really confusing to me for some reason. Did you decide that you were ESTp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    LSE, LSI or LII.

    Although people think > for you, is the next possibility, definitely.
    I think you're still focusing too much on the dominant function to type people. Any logical type will be comfortable with both and . A type is not just the dominant function, and the rest has to "follow" somehow, although one could get this impression from Jung. For instance, if I am dominant or creative, that means that I also prefer to . Can you make a case for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Nonetheless, I always had you down as a no-nonsense person, Expat, who saw no need for what you might see as pointless speculation... until this thread. This makes me think of .
    And is the ENTj's 8th function, which I personally call the "hobby" or "fun" function.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralsilky
    I can see why you initially scored INTJ on tests before deciding upon ENTj.
    MBTI tests, for the record.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralsilky
    I worked for an ENTj once for a long time. We clashed all the time but eventually earned each other's deepest respect because of our differing yet legitimate aptitudes (etc). Even though, we truly conflicted on so many things on a philosophical level, it was ridiculous. He also tested as an ENTj, by the way. Anyhow, I can't see how he had an "Si POLR" for example. He was the kind of guy who - according to Kiersey's model - fit the Fieldmarshal role well. He was most interested in networking administrative processes and always eager to "make money." That was his drivign motivation in life - he wanted to ever increase his financial standing, even after attaining a large amount of wealth through an assortment of creative means (creative, as in, creative SCHEDULING and organization and utilization of people they know in order to maximize profits with minimal work on their end, other than planning). He loved the finer things in life - luxuries and such - but primarily for their social impact.
    That doesn't sound much like an ENTj.


    Quote Originally Posted by astralsilky
    The INTjs I've known also can enjoy luxuries, and naturally, enjoy making money and excelling ~ but they seemed more interested in having a variety of experiences of a unique nature. Both types seemed to be "interested in the world" - but ENTjs, based on how well they are fitting in and succeeding in that world so as to "win the game" and the INTjs, perhaps to stimulate their inner world and complex thinking and maybe even sensation-seeking, for something "different." The INTjs were more interested in personal mastery regardless of how society views them; but ENTjs, personal mastery only insofaras they get that recognition from society that they have "achieved" - that is how it appears, anyway.
    Again, I think you misunderstand ENTj's drives. "Recognition from society" is a very low priority. What you are describing is a classical Enneagram 3, the "achiever", which some people say can also be an ENTj, and I agree in terms of behavior, but in terms of motivations, which is what you are referring to, the best fit is ENFj - at least those I call "yuppie" ENFjs.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralsilky
    These are some trends which I have not only read about from other theoretical models, but truly have witnessed among individuals I've known well from both types (some of whom also test so). Not sure if this data is useful or interesting enough for you in your search.
    I'm not really in a search regarding my type, as I mentioned in the first post. And, again, I think you misunderstand ENTj's basic motivations, and that some of the people you have typed as such aren't really of that type.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Expat...don't be so inflexible. Unhealthy ENTj 3 social first variant on the enneagram can be like that...they are not "only" ENFjs! I understand that you see societal recognition as a primary Fe realm, but it can be equally attributed to resolutness, or Se quadra values (after all, many ESFps are much into social recognition as an aim (think about Berlusconi), and they're in the same quadra as ENTjs). This isn't to say those representatives are to be treated as examples of a given type.

    It's similar to "ENTj bullies". I'm pretty sure if we were to sample bullies, there would be an equal distribution of ExTx types, likely. But over the totality of ExTxs, they would still be a minority, and their presence would be easily explained by the tails of the bell curve.

    Similarly, a very unhealthy ENTj stands out more simply because he'll bother people more, and they will openly complain about it.

    OTOH some of the things astralisky attributes to entjs (meaning, wanting submissive mates) seem to be more in line with sensing types.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Expat...don't be so inflexible. Unhealthy ENTj 3 social first variant on the enneagram can be like that...they are not "only" ENFjs!
    Fine, but she seemed to be seeing that as typical of healthy ENTjs. That I disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I understand that you see societal recognition as a primary Fe realm, but it can be equally attributed to resolutness, or Se quadra values (after all, many ESFps are much into social recognition as an aim (think about Berlusconi), and they're in the same quadra as ENTjs). This isn't to say those representatives are to be treated as examples of a given type.
    First, even if we agree on Berlusconi's type -- are you sure that that is his main aim? It seems to me that he first got rich, and only later started to bother about recognition. So his motivations, as far as we can see them, seem unclear.

    I do not mean that ENTjs will be totally unconcerned with social recognition. But astralsilky seemed to be saying that that was the ultimate goal of ENTjs. That I disagree with.

    To use exaggerated examples. An ENTj will prefer to have millions in a bank even if everyone think's he's a hobo. An ENFj E3 will prefer to be an ambassador or ceremonial monarch, full of status, even if with very little money actually belonging to him, as long as he can enjoy the trappings of wealth.

    Obviously both would prefer to have real wealth AND enjoy some trappings, but I'm presenting a hypothetical all-or-nothing choice here.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    It's similar to "ENTj bullies". I'm pretty sure if we were to sample bullies, there would be an equal distribution of ExTx types, likely. But over the totality of ExTxs, they would still be a minority, and their presence would be easily explained by the tails of the bell curve.
    Yes, but the difference remains as to the nature of the bullying. An ENTj will bully people by making them feel ignorant and stupid - even in private. The social kind of bullying eunice described makes no sense to an ENTj, no matter how evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    OTOH some of the things astralisky attributes to entjs (meaning, wanting submissive mates) seem to be more in line with sensing types.
    Yes. That line was totally off. The idea of the ISFj mate as "submissive" is nonsense.

    A good example of an ENTj-ISFj marriage is the old sitcom Bewitched, if you look past the comedy, witchcraft etc. She was the housewife. But in no way submissive.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    So a ENTj would want to be objectively wealth and ethically self-righteous...
    That's exactly it.

    And that's precisely what Bill Gates is doing.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    LSE, LSI or LII.

    Although people think > for you, is the next possibility, definitely.

    Nonetheless, I always had you down as a no-nonsense person, Expat, who saw no need for what you might see as pointless speculation... until this thread. This makes me think of .
    this is really confusing to me for some reason. Did you decide that you were ESTp?
    No, others did.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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