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Thread: Are ESFps/ESTps truly "aggressors"? Issues with hesitation, reserve, ambivalence.

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    Default Are ESFps/ESTps truly "aggressors"? Issues with hesitation, reserve, ambivalence.

    I get the impression from descriptions here that ESFp and ESTp are usually very decisive, self-confident and generally classed as Aggressors. It would logically seem to follow that they don't have difficulty initiating relationships. At the very least, I would imagine they'd know what they want and what they don't.

    However, my experiences with these types in attraction have generally been fraught with ambivalence. One step forward, two steps back. Held at arm's length, taciturn behaviors, often conflicted. And my favorite: compartmentalization. (She's my girlfriend, you're my emotional confidant).

    My question then, what conditions prompt this kind of hesitation? Why can't they just decide?
    Do I simply not know the ES_p high sign or secret handshake??

    What's a poor INFp to do?
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    Default Re: ESFp/ESTp -- aggressor?

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I get the impression from descriptions here that ESFp and ESTp are usually very decisive, self-confident and generally classed as Aggressors. It would logically seem to follow that they don't have difficulty initiating relationships. At the very least, I would imagine they'd know what they want and what they don't.

    However, my experiences with these types in attraction have generally been fraught with ambivalence. One step forward, two steps back. Held at arm's length, taciturn behaviors, often conflicted. And my favorite: compartmentalization. (She's my girlfriend, you're my emotional confidant).

    My question then, what conditions prompt this kind of hesitation? Why can't they just decide?
    Do I simply not know the ES_p high sign or secret handshake??

    What's a poor INFp to do?
    Well, stick to ESTps would be my first recommendation. ESFps are looking for Te, and without that it would be more difficult to be decisive. With ESTps, just throw lots of Fe at them. Also, make sure you're not mistyping ENxjs (or other types) as ESxps. The description you gave sounds a lot like a typical frustration Ni types have when they're not dealing with Se types.

    And since you brought it up... I just thought I'd post links to my favorite ESFp/INTp scenes. (You know, so people have an example of ESFp/INTp Victim/Aggressor relations. If anyone has any suggestions as to how the scene would have been different if it had been an ESTp/INFp couple, please post your ideas.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmKCJQ26PmE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpxlH_sw_LM
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    Default Re: ESFp/ESTp -- aggressor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy

    Well, stick to ESTps would be my first recommendation. ESFps are looking for Te, and without that it would be more difficult to be decisive.
    Bleh. I'm done with ESTps. Tell me instead how to approximate Te! In fact, I will go read up on it now...
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

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    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
    How do girls assure you of their interest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
    How do girls assure you of their interest?
    Or rather, what assures you of a girl's interest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
    How do girls assure you of their interest?
    Or rather, what assures you of a girl's interest?
    Question seconded...
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
    How do girls assure you of their interest?
    They can do it in various ways...the best ones:

    - asking me out after I have asked them out, or generally showing willingness to hang out with me
    - expressing openly their feelings about me

    It can be even enough to contact me via, say, text message or IM - I won't lose the opportunity to ask you out once more.

    But if after say, 7-8 times I've been the one asking you out, I see nothing in reply, I become a bit confused about the situation.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
    How do girls assure you of their interest?
    They can do it in various ways...the best ones:

    - asking me out after I have asked them out, or generally showing willingness to hang out with me
    - expressing openly their feelings about me

    It can be even enough to contact me via, say, text message or IM - I won't lose the opportunity to ask you out once more.

    But if after say, 7-8 times I've been the one asking you out, I see nothing in reply, I become a bit confused about the situation.
    What erotic attitude do you think this correlates with best? And if a girl enjoys or responds well to this type of interaction, which erotic attitude... or more so type... do you think she would most likely be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Whether I'm ENxj or ESxp, I don't do that especially once I am assured of the interest. When I'm not assured I "test grounds" meaning that I'll ask you out, wait some time, then ask you out once more, progressively becoming closer (in a physical sense other than psychological).
    How do girls assure you of their interest?
    They can do it in various ways...the best ones:

    - asking me out after I have asked them out, or generally showing willingness to hang out with me
    - expressing openly their feelings about me

    It can be even enough to contact me via, say, text message or IM - I won't lose the opportunity to ask you out once more.

    But if after say, 7-8 times I've been the one asking you out, I see nothing in reply, I become a bit confused about the situation.
    What erotic attitude do you think this correlates with best? And if a girl enjoys or responds well to this type of interaction, which erotic attitude... or more so type... do you think she would most likely be?
    Idk...from my experience, it generally works best with...INFp ENFp ISFj
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I'm having a hard time picturing the typical ISFj getting involved with someone who had asked them out so many times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    But if after say, 7-8 times I've been the one asking you out, I see nothing in reply, I become a bit confused about the situation.
    7 or 8 times? That's persistence! I've hardly been asked out more than a handful of times in my entire life -- seriously -- and most often by guys I'm really not even interested in. Almost all the ones I have been interested in have been at my own either subtle initiation and prompting. They drop noncommittal hints, but it's usually up to me to pin them down. I can't stand wasting time if I'm interested enough.

    Perhaps I'm just not patient enough to do the passive female victim waiting game.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    On second thought, it's probably that I usually am attracted to a particular quality of "familiar" ambivalence.

    Perhaps it's also the challenge of winning them over. Typically these guys have no end of admirers and I've speculated they don't ever have to make the first move. Interested parties make it for them based on their high desirability factor.

    At some point I usually find myself bemoaning the high F/M ratio.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Hmm...is it that I lack if I am not generally willing to persistently go after someone? And what would be my dual seeking function? I more or less expect a clear outcome of every initiation attempt I make. If I get too ambiguous answers I lose interest. If someone turns me down I want to know a clear reason so that I don't have to live in a state where I don't know if we are just playing cat and mouse or if I am out of the game and should move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I'm having a hard time picturing the typical ISFj getting involved with someone who had asked them out so many times.
    Well well, I don't mean I ask them out 7 times with them always replying no.

    With ISFJ's they usually reply no the first time, then I make some days pass, and they contact me back. That's what has happened so far with them.

    But my actual girlfriend was actually used to easily make moves on guy she liked. But she said I was wayyy more aggressive and impatient in pursuing her than any previous one, so she didn't even have the time to.

    Perhaps it's also the challenge of winning them over. Typically these guys have no end of admirers and I've speculated they don't ever have to make the first move. Interested parties make it for them based on their high desirability factor.
    I don't like it when girls make a move on me, I've never gone out with a girl that has asked me out/showed interest first/tried to initiate physical contact (I especially dislike it if the girl tries to make out with me, ugh! Let me take the initiative)

    f someone turns me down I want to know a clear reason so that I don't have to live in a state where I don't know if we are just playing cat and mouse or if I am out of the game and should move on.
    Oh that's different. After a certain period of time (say, 1-2 months) I wanna know where are we heading, but I tolerate uncertainity at the start.
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    I need one of these.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    I don't like it when girls make a move on me, I've never gone out with a girl that has asked me out/showed interest first/tried to initiate physical contact (I especially dislike it if the girl tries to make out with me, ugh! Let me take the initiative)
    Men...!

    That's an awfully chauvinistic attitude. Even showing interest first? God... if I waited around for any guy to show interest first, I'd be collecting Social Security. Guys aren't known for being the swiftest when it comes to getting around to show interest, btw. And do you really all want the garden variety submissive coquette? Sheesh.

    Obviously, a girl has to somehow set herself apart to get noticed.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    I don't like it when girls make a move on me, I've never gone out with a girl that has asked me out/showed interest first/tried to initiate physical contact (I especially dislike it if the girl tries to make out with me, ugh! Let me take the initiative)
    Men...!

    That's an awfully chauvinistic attitude. Even showing interest first? God... if I waited around for any guy to show interest first, I'd be collecting Social Security. Guys aren't known for being the swiftest when it comes to getting around to show interest, btw. And do you really all want the garden variety submissive coquette? Sheesh.

    Obviously, a girl has to somehow set herself apart to get noticed.
    i love that word coquette great word... :wink:

    on the one hand we're living in a modern society, why can't the woman take some initiative. women often do take the initiative when the woman is extraverted and the man is introverted. but when the man is extraverted, my hypothesis is that he will want to take the initiative. it's like he's doubly reinforced to do so: by gender expectations and by personality.

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    I just really HATE the constantly reinforced societal implication that I have to wait passively in my petticoats with my kid-gloved hands in my lap to be approached by some guy taking initiative to choose me to dance. (Seriously, that's what that conjures up for me!)

    Of course, I am ultimately Victim erotic role so I want to be moved upon, but I simply can't stand the idea that it won't be a guy I actually WANT to make a move. So I tend to take some steps to put myself in the way of someone I want rather than dither around. I just can't trust events to take their course naturally.

    I wonder if it's just that I'm unusually self-possessed and most guys can't get a read on what they can really offer me. I worry that I'm not towing the feminine line, but I can't stand mute passivity and "The Rules". And certainly, I'm not going to tolerate some guy who thinks he can dictate what I can or cannot do. I want a playmate, a lover, a formidable equal, not a daddy.

    *sigh* Maybe my expectations of the male sex are simply too high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I just really HATE the constantly reinforced societal implication that I have to wait passively in my petticoats with my kid-gloved hands in my lap to be approached by some guy taking initiative to choose me to dance. (Seriously, that's what that conjures up for me!)

    Of course, I am ultimately Victim erotic role so I want to be moved upon, but I simply can't stand the idea that it won't be a guy I actually WANT to make a move. So I tend to take some steps to put myself in the way of someone I want rather than dither around. I just can't trust events to take their course naturally.

    I wonder if it's just that I'm unusually self-possessed and most guys can't get a read on what they can really offer me. I worry that I'm not towing the feminine line, but I can't stand mute passivity and "The Rules". And certainly, I'm not going to tolerate some guy who thinks he can dictate what I can or cannot do. I want a playmate, a lover, a formidable equal, not a daddy.

    *sigh* Maybe my expectations of the male sex are simply too high.
    i don't think the victim role is really passive at all.

    there's a difference between initiative and activity. initiative simply means making the first "obvious" move. activity is doing stuff...even little stuff.

    what you're describing are under the surface ways of getting people to react. you send flashcard signals to an Se dominant type who is trying to read people all the time anyway. trust me he's gonna see your signals right away. there's a lot of activity involved in this process for sure, so it's by no means passive. i don't think any of the sexual types are passive, because there's action coming from each. the aggressive type just gets all the glory since they're the most obvious.

    i know what you mean about "The Rules" though. they're not too useful to me either.

    but know this: introverts draw extraverts in like magnets. man enquiring extravert minds want to know what's in that cryptic brain of yours! i know one when i see one and my first move is to want to draw them out. well men are no different.

    all women want an equal. men too. if they think they don't either they're kidding themselves or they have self esteem issues. there's nothing so exciting as when someone puts you in your place (in a good way of course) and let's you know what time it is.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8

    i don't think the victim role is really passive at all.

    there's a difference between initiative and activity. initiative simply means making the first "obvious" move. activity is doing stuff...even little stuff.
    I do sort of telegraph my interest. Subtly, using innuendo, lowered eyes and that Mona Lisa Smile. Sometimes the innuendo isn't so subtle... :wink:

    what you're describing are under the surface ways of getting people to react. you send flashcard signals to an Se dominant type who is trying to read people all the time anyway. trust me he's gonna see your signals right away. there's a lot of activity involved in this process for sure, so it's by no means passive. i don't think any of the sexual types are passive, because there's action coming from each. the aggressive type just gets all the glory since they're the most obvious.
    Sometimes I feel I'm waving huge white semaphore flags and still not getting an obvious response! Waiting out the game of back and forth signaling I guess is the difficult part for me. I keep looking for the "clinch" moment and get rather impatient when it isn't presently forthcoming. I tend to think in terms of overall time (ie: two months) rather than actual instances of play (perhaps there have only been 3 opportunities to seriously flirt in those 2 mos.).

    Plus, it's embarrassing to add that I also tend to have long dry spells and just want to leap headfirst into a torrid love affair.

    but know this: introverts draw extraverts in like magnets. man enquiring extravert minds want to know what's in that cryptic brain of yours! i know one when i see one and my first move is to want to draw them out. well men are no different.
    Sometimes what's going on in my cryptic brain is simply XXX shocking! :wink:

    all women want an equal. men too. if they think they don't either they're kidding themselves or they have self esteem issues. there's nothing so exciting as when someone puts you in your place (in a good way of course) and let's you know what time it is.
    Eh... probably comes down to maturity, like most things.
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    hahaha somehow i can totally imagine your XXX mind....hehehe

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    hahaha somehow i can totally imagine your XXX mind....hehehe
    Now, if only my current target would...

    (insert evil laugh)
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    don't worry he'll be here soon. i'm very sure of that!

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    I don't like it when girls make a move on me, I've never gone out with a girl that has asked me out/showed interest first/tried to initiate physical contact (I especially dislike it if the girl tries to make out with me, ugh! Let me take the initiative)
    Men...!

    That's an awfully chauvinistic attitude. Even showing interest first? God... if I waited around for any guy to show interest first, I'd be collecting Social Security. Guys aren't known for being the swiftest when it comes to getting around to show interest, btw. And do you really all want the garden variety submissive coquette? Sheesh.

    Obviously, a girl has to somehow set herself apart to get noticed.
    I don't know why! It's not because I want the girl to be submissive or anything. Just a gut preference, I can't explain why. I don't have a problem with girls showing interest in other guys and I think they should do what they want.

    Anyway, none of my girlfriend have been paritcularly submissive - it's probably me being particularly impatient.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    I don't like it when girls make a move on me, I've never gone out with a girl that has asked me out/showed interest first/tried to initiate physical contact (I especially dislike it if the girl tries to make out with me, ugh! Let me take the initiative)
    Men...!

    That's an awfully chauvinistic attitude. Even showing interest first? God... if I waited around for any guy to show interest first, I'd be collecting Social Security. Guys aren't known for being the swiftest when it comes to getting around to show interest, btw. And do you really all want the garden variety submissive coquette? Sheesh.

    Obviously, a girl has to somehow set herself apart to get noticed.
    i love that word coquette great word... :wink:

    on the one hand we're living in a modern society, why can't the woman take some initiative. women often do take the initiative when the woman is extraverted and the man is introverted. but when the man is extraverted, my hypothesis is that he will want to take the initiative. it's like he's doubly reinforced to do so: by gender expectations and by personality.
    Yeah really it's not that I think women SHOULDN'T or any crap like that - it's just the way I personally prefer it to happen!

    And no, I don't tell anybody what to do - I think you're taking this way too far, I just said I take the initiative! In fact I only take the initiative in asking out and I generally let the girl decide where, when, why, etc

    Anyway for me the typical "right signal" is a passing look in the eye from afar when I a small crowd, eye contact for 1 second, and then both parties look back away. Usually this is (here in italy) a very strong signal of directed interest.

    Also you're overcomplicating it.

    An example of the way I initiated with the INFp I went out easily. I met her at a party, my ENFp friend organized. The same night I asked the ENFp friend for the girl's number. Next day, she asked her the number, and the INFp herself actually contacted me on her own initiative. You might see this as taking the intiative, to an extent! Then I immediatly asked her out.

    My brain doesn't work with social roles, what I want in a girl, ideals, blah. I see girl. Smart?Pretty?Funny?Witty? -> check yes yes yes yes -> me goes after her. I don't care if she is submissive, dominant, conservative, republican, if she thinks men are stupid, etc etc. Usually there's no time for her to make a move on me because I make a move in say, 1 week if I'm interested (MAX).

    By the way. All my girlfriends have been older than me. So no, I don't seek somebody I can dominate, that would be just boring.

    What about the possibility that your being an e-type 4 unconsciously drives you towards guys that tend to be unreachable? Not even because of their beauty or popularity, but simply because they might have not noticed you etc.
    The girl I dated was a 4, and it seemed like she lost interest when she saw I was really interested.

    Guys aren't known for being the swiftest when it comes to getting around to show interest
    To be honest - I have seen many times girl sending "signals", when I was single. My lack of reaction and initiative might have had them thinking I wasn't particularly good at catching them. In actuality, I was simply not interested in the girl. From the outside, it looked like I wasn't getting the hints, though, I'm pretty certain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    What about the possibility that your being an e-type 4 unconsciously drives you towards guys that tend to be unreachable? Not even because of their beauty or popularity, but simply because they might have not noticed you etc.
    The girl I dated was a 4, and it seemed like she lost interest when she saw I was really interested.
    Duly noted and owned. :wink:

    It does make me want to try harder to catch their attention when it seems like I actually need to. I've never liked things to be too easy. The attraction is heightened when there is some form of natural opposition.

    "As all impediments in fancy's way are motives to more fancy...." (Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well)

    To be honest - I have seen many times girl sending "signals", when I was single. My lack of reaction and initiative might have had them thinking I wasn't particularly good at catching them. In actuality, I was simply not interested in the girl. From the outside, it looked like I wasn't getting the hints, though, I'm pretty certain.
    Well... if you were responding with innuendo, flirting etc., but still not making a definitive move, what would that mean? Surely not "just not that into them"... ?
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Often with me if someone isn't very persistent I may just think they're not very interested. That's my sort of default about it anyway. But in actuality I've found it doesn't always match. But generally I'm not going to initiate anything unless I get a "feeling" telling me I should do, in which case I'll usually proceed in a subtle way trying to get the other person to initiate, or see if they would... But of course, this all seems terribly unbalanced, and I frankly do not know what to think about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    What about the possibility that your being an e-type 4 unconsciously drives you towards guys that tend to be unreachable? Not even because of their beauty or popularity, but simply because they might have not noticed you etc.
    The girl I dated was a 4, and it seemed like she lost interest when she saw I was really interested.
    Duly noted and owned. :wink:

    It does make me want to try harder to catch their attention when it seems like I actually need to. I've never liked things to be too easy. The attraction is heightened when there is some form of natural opposition.
    I'm probably too impatient for that. If it's you that is running, it'd be okay for me to chase, but I don't really feel like running myself - why would I run from something I want?

    Well... if you were responding with innuendo, flirting etc., but still not making a definitive move, what would that mean? Surely not "just not that into them"... ?
    Does he have a girlfriend or not? If he doesn't, yea, that would mean interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG

    Well... if you were responding with innuendo, flirting etc., but still not making a definitive move, what would that mean? Surely not "just not that into them"... ?
    Does he have a girlfriend or not? If he doesn't, yea, that would mean interest.
    He has a few, actually... no "official". He plays the field but doesn't want to be tied down.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    on the one hand we're living in a modern society, why can't the woman take some initiative. women often do take the initiative when the woman is extraverted and the man is introverted.
    Okay first off, I agree with what you said but I have a little beef when people say 'modern society' like what the fuck, I know things have changed but it's not like women power or gay power is some fad that started in its 60s. It's an ongoing struggle that goes way, way waaay back. Women have always been in power. Gay people have always been in power. Blacks have always been in power. Etc. etc. The only difference is how the 'evil majority' have responded to this. Which I disagree with too, but I just believe the Dark Ones made us THINK they were in the 'majority' kind of how republicans say they are 'right' and we are 'left' when it's really the other way around. But who gives a fuck? As long as we call it the 'modern world' we're still leaving it up to the bigot's hands. Let's not make the haters define us.

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