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Thread: Discussion of ESTj descriptions from socionics.com

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    Default Discussion of ESTj descriptions from socionics.com

    I finally read the physical description of ESTj and "ESTj uncovered" under socionics.com for the first time:
    Quote Originally Posted by socionics.com
    Logical-Sensory Extratim - ESTj (The Director)
    Based upon original work by Victor Gulenko with some alterations

    ESTjs have a characteristic upright posture often appearing as if their backs are inflexible giving the impression that they are executing a military drill. In many cases ESTjs are slim. However, larger ESTjs are not exceptional, especially when applied to women. But even in these cases the figure retains its characteristic upright posture.

    Their gait and movements are sharp, tense and jerky showing an internal tension synonymous to this type. ESTjs find it difficult to remain in the same position for extended periods and will often shift about during conversation. Their clothes are mainly executive or classical in style. Men prefer the traditional suit and tie. When choosing clothes ESTjs will pay much more attention to comfort and quality than to the latest fashion. Female ESTjs do not often wear extravagant things. Even if they do try to follow fashion their choices will always maintain an element of conservatism.

    In general ESTjs are very careful and cautious with their clothes. Their clothing is always neat and clean. They may keep clothes for a long time and know well how to preserve them. Even if some items are quite old they still may look like new. ESTjs do not like untidiness and carelessness in their appearance and in general. Trousers are always ironed, shoes polished, etc.

    When ESTjs interact with strangers they are always polite, educated and well mannered, observing the norms of etiquette. This is especially noticeable in men when they start a conversation with the opposite sex. ESTjs do not like small talk or gossiping neither do they like having long conversations on the phone. When talking on the telephone they will often sound slightly different. ESTjs do not like familiarity.

    ESTjs like to ask questions and find out facts. They do not accept foggy answers, demanding concrete data. They have an opinion about almost everything and will actively debate and defend it. ESTjs will never admit that they were not right. If they want to blame somebody for something they will find a way.

    ESTjs are great supporters of practicality and do not understand and may condemn people who have fantasy or who propose fascinating but impractical projects. They do not like laziness or disorganisation. They do not like sudden changes, preferring a slow but sure advance. ESTjs act for the sake of stability. They have conservative views about family, this is especially applicable in males. In their understanding the husband has to provide, while the wife has to look after the children and the house.

    Although ESTjs may appear in control of their emotions they periodically allow flashes of fury to break through. This often manifests when something goes wrong or somebody tells them how to do their job, especially if they deem that the accuser is not competent in what they are doing. In anger ESTjs may shout, throw or break things, often recalling their victims past failures.

    ESTjs have a tremendous ability to work. If necessary, they can work for many hours a day, seven days a week without proper rest. Their understanding of relaxation is to lie down on the sofa watching television for a few hours and then they are ready to work again. ESTjs can not stay without work for long. They like to work and as a result they always keep themselves occupied. ESTjs often display the qualities of a good organiser.

    When in dangerous situations ESTjs act quickly and determinedly, never boasting about it afterwards. They have a straight forward approach to their goals. ESTjs find it difficult to cheat making it easy to catch them out and as a result they generally have an honest reputation. ESTjs do not stand for lies forgery and fraud. They do not like shallow, frivolous or thoughtless people. They also observe customs.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESTj uncovered
    "...so I turned a corner and walked straight into a brick wall!" - could really closely describe the experience one could get from meeting an ESTj, and this is why:

    ESTjs usually stand out among other children as too grown-up for their age. They talk, think, act and make decisions already like adults. This makes ESTjs look older and more mature than other people from their age group.

    As kids ESTjs are very hungry for information and absorb knowledge like sponge absorbs water. Then relatively quickly their knowledge gets solidified as if it was "cemented in concrete" and "carved in stone". Time itself usually slows down in ESTj's habitat and occasionally may even go backwards. But the real world never stands still. So what do ESTjs do? Instead of welcoming the new they become conservative and inflexible and coupled with their poor ability to imagine what is likely to happen they start actively resisting change.

    ESTjs tend to trust only verified or published information. If it has been published then someone up there must have approved it so it could be trusted. Maybe this is how it used to be before Christ but with the huge popularity of the Internet and gigalobites of low quality information available on there those ESTjs must be really having a difficult time deciding which information can be trusted. But don't feel too sorry for ESTjs as this is not new to them. ESTjs are often obsessed with conspiracy theories and other subjects involving secrecy and cover-ups.

    You might also think an ESTj being an S and a T is very concrete and straight-to-the-point kind of type. You could be right when it comes to work but not the talk. ESTjs can talk for hours and eventually say nothing. This talent for intentional ambiguity is absolutely essential to them when covering their butts. In their eyes they are perfect and infallible. This means that they can't afford to make any mistakes. So if they make their promises intentionally ambiguous no one can blame them especially if they fail.

    ESTjs are born to be bosses. "Work! Produce! Utilise! And work!" - undoubtedly comes very close to describing ESTj's moto. If you have to work for an ESTj expect a civilised form of slavery. It is guaranteed that they will optimise your job so that you might even find yourself working on your way to work. This makes one wonder about whether the infamous "ARBEIT MACHT FREI" - the "work will set you free" slogan at the gates of Nazi's concentration camps was the sarcastic work of an ESTj "genius". But to be fair, ESTjs do not just demand work from others, they are workaholics themselves. That's maybe why they think it is normal.

    And no, they are not enemies of fun. On contrary, they like to have fun and enjoy a good laugh and humour. They are however the enemies of immature and childish fun - "Why don't people grow up? I did!"

    Well, indeed...
    Are these really common characteristics of ESTjs, or have they been over-idealized?

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    The image of an ESTj in constant activity sounds accurate. Remarks about leadership always seem a bit off, however; not every ESTj can be in a position of authority, and therefore is likely to be a vocal critic of... perhaps not the 'status quo' en masse, but certain aspects like a specific person or process - while still getting the work done.

    Covering their backside is also accurate, but entirely dependent on the person. With a bit of maturity and experience in how reconciliation works, I think an ESTj could be very good at coming clean. That said, their version of 'coming clean' will also include a list of wrongs committed in that same situation by other people. This isn't to puff themselves up at the expense of the others, but acts to democratize the wrongs of the situation in the sense that, "it should be no surprise I'm at fault, because it was a flawed operation right from the start, and here's why..."
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    ESTjs have a tremendous ability to work. If necessary, they can work for many hours a day, seven days a week without proper rest. Their understanding of relaxation is to lie down on the sofa watching television for a few hours and then they are ready to work again. ESTjs can not stay without work for long. They like to work and as a result they always keep themselves occupied. ESTjs often display the qualities of a good organiser.
    Mhm.


    And no, they are not enemies of fun. On contrary, they like to have fun and enjoy a good laugh and humour. They are however the enemies of immature and childish fun - "Why don't people grow up? I did!"

    Well, indeed...
    That is exactly my situation here on campus.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    how is that an idealistic description?
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    how is that an idealistic description?
    It probably sound that way to INFjs because they're duals!
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    how is that an idealistic description?
    i was thinking the same...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Growing up is overrated. You mean to tell me responsibility is fun?

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    Absolutely.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Absolutely.
    What are you agreeing with? Growing up is overrated or responsibilities are fun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Absolutely.
    What are you agreeing with? Growing up is overrated or responsibilities are fun?
    I think he meant the last one, and if so, you can have it. More fun for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Absolutely.
    What are you agreeing with? Growing up is overrated or responsibilities are fun?
    More fun for me, too.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    how is that an idealistic description?
    It probably sound that way to INFjs because they're duals!
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    how is that an idealistic description?
    i was thinking the same...
    Well, the image I have perceived from the first description is someone who is conventional, perfectionistic, accurate, decisive, hardworking and not insane. In other words, it describes an exemplary and psychologically healthy individual.

    Even though the "ESTj uncovered" profile is supposed to be describing negative traits of the type, I still cannot figure out what is supposed to be negative about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Well, the image I have perceived from the first description is someone who is conventional, perfectionistic, accurate, decisive, hardworking and not insane. In other words, it describes an exemplary and psychologically healthy individual.

    Even though the "ESTj uncovered" profile is supposed to be describing negative traits of the type, I still cannot figure out what is supposed to be negative about it.
    lol well i guess you're right on the psychologically healthy thing. that part is rare, at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    lol well i guess you're right on the psychologically healthy thing. that part is rare, at least.
    and also entirely something socionics cannot account for. At their best, profiles should demonstrate the principles of a type who is healthy or at least average health, sanity.

    ESFps, INTjs -- all types vary based on their own neurosis and personal state of being. I wonder if someday they should do "levels" of types, like the enneagram does........
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    ESFps, INTjs -- all types vary based on their own neurosis and personal state of being. I wonder if someday they should do "levels" of types, like the enneagram does........
    I like the idea of how ennergram does levels of types. I do somewhat question its validity though. If things go bad for me i can probablly almost go into the unhealthy range in some areas. Get me a girlfriend and do well at some uni tests and my whole persona changes. My whole outlook becomes healthy.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    exemplary and psychologically healthy individual.
    Dunno about exemplary, that's personal
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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