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Thread: Niccolo Machiavelli

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Niccolo Machiavelli

    Top quality strategist, very straightforward in method and theory, and concerned with power and correct use of it and its distribution. Enneagram type 3 or 8 is most accepted.

    Any ideas as to type?

    Wikiquote.







    Last edited by silke; 10-10-2015 at 04:44 AM. Reason: updated links
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Smilingeyes's Avatar
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    A diplomat and a romantic historian also. He saw himself as the helper of a new great leader. Also a playwright. Made eulogies for ruthlessness but was incapable of being it himself. Fe and Ni. Was incapable of discretion and hamhanded in delivery, something which I tend to ascribe rather to EJs than IPs so I call ENFj.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Oh, the ENFj nose!


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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Lol.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    But the way he thinks and writes is much more objective and impersonal than a Fe valuing person would. Surely one would assume Fi > Fe after reading The Prince or his Art of War?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Smilingeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    But the way he thinks and writes is much more objective and impersonal than a Fe valuing person would. Surely one would assume Fi > Fe after reading The Prince or his Art of War?
    . If you think gamma or delta you'll also have to explain how magliavegli managed to develop a man-crush on cesare borgia.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Logos's Avatar
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    Why, Ezra, why do you keep bringing up Enneagram?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    If it seems that way to you, it's because it is one of my interests. I know it better than socionics or MBTI. I also think calling someone a type is much easier than giving a massive paragraph about someone's personality as expressed through the way they write.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    If it seems that way to you, it's because it is one of my interests. I know it better than socionics or MBTI. I also think calling someone a type is much easier than giving a massive paragraph about someone's personality as expressed through the way they write.
    Yes, but that is a two step process as opposed to simply a one step process. You are translating what you think you know about him into Enneagram and then are trying to translate it into Socionics, when it is better to just start from scratch about what we know about him, because if you are wrong about his Enneagram type and all you give us to work with is his supposed Enneagram type then there is less likelihood that we will be able to accurately derive his Socionics type.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    WRONG. I gave information and only WHEN I'd finished did I even both to mention the Enneagram. It has fulfilled its function, but you seem to think otherwise, for no apparent reason.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    WRONG. I gave information and only WHEN I'd finished did I even both to mention the Enneagram. It has fulfilled its function, but you seem to think otherwise, for no apparent reason.
    I think otherwise in my quite apparent reason that the little sentence which you provided prior to the Enneagram type was hardly information with which anyone could accurately judge Machiavelli.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    WRONG. I gave information and only WHEN I'd finished did I even both to mention the Enneagram. It has fulfilled its function, but you seem to think otherwise, for no apparent reason.
    I think otherwise in my quite apparent reason that the little sentence which you provided prior to the Enneagram type was hardly information with which anyone could accurately judge Machiavelli.
    True.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    Gamma, most likely ENTj imho.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    i was thinking lsi for some reason. something about how the way he writes is pretty linear and methodical and has lots of tangible examples. but then looking around on the forum i saw lii and lie, both of which seem plausible so now i'm curious. saw @labster talking about it in a different thread and i'm curious what he has to say. i can't see an ethical type. his pragmatism and amorality are kind of amusing in a fascinating shadow aspect kind of way.

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    something about how the way he writes is pretty linear and methodical and has lots of tangible examples.
    Yes. To me, his book (The Prince) seemed to be very Te-heavy. Also consider the length of this book, it's just 144 pages long. This is a mere leaflet compared to Das Kapital (768 pages), which was written by Marx, who was most likely strong Ti-user. You may think that it's not compareable because of the very different subjects, but I still think that this is a clear indicator of Te>Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i can't see an ethical type. his pragmatism and amorality are kind of amusing in a fascinating shadow aspect kind of way.
    True. He is only concerned about the emotional impact of any action because of their logical consequnces. For instance, he wrote that it's always better to do good, not because it's simply "good", but rather because it only generates unnecessary opposition and hatred if people are arbitrarily cruel und unfair. His opinion in this regard is highly interesting, but I don't share it. Admittedly, this does sound like Fi-polr.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    True. He is only concerned about the emotional impact of any action because of their logical consequnces. For instance, he wrote that it's always better to do good, not because it's simply "good", but rather because it only generates unnecessary opposition and hatred if people are arbitrarily cruel und unfair. His opinion in this regard is highly interesting, but I don't share it. Admittedly, this does sound like Fi-polr.
    it doesn't scream fi polr at me so much as logical in general, not that all logical types are like that. speaking as someone who can easily get wound around her feelings to the point of losing broader perspective (and i'm inclined to associate fi base with this), an outlook of viewing values in a cold cost/benefit way is like, something unattainable and kind of awe-inspiring (this sounds kind of horrible, lol). it has its good points and bad points. i mean the opposite of machiavelli would be like a religious zealot or something.

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    What I liked so much about the book was the total honesty. He simply wrote the things as they were and did not even try to sugarcoat anything or to manipulate the opinion of the reader. Virtually nobody admits that they do morally questionable things for their cause (most prominent examples are the Nazis and authoritarian Communists). If it's mentioned at all, the truth/history is changed and "reinterpreted" in order to make them look like the heroes, anyway. But no, Machiavelli says that sometimes, you have to do bad things in order to stay on the top. If you don't want that, fine. But if you want to keep your power, you better do it. Most people misunderstand this and think he simply approves ruthless, inconsiderate actions. However, this is absolutely wrong. He advises to use force to avoid greater evils and to stay in power. In a position of authority, it's better to be feared rather than to be loved, because fear is much longer lasting and does not depend on the people's benevolence.

    As I said, I wouldn't apply this guide in reality, but his precise and "compact" style of writing (along with his good analysis and conclusions) was good variation compared to the cluttered crap other people write.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    yeah, exactly. not "you SHOULD be an asshole," but "you can be an asshole and achieve your goal or you can avoid being an asshole and not achieve it."

    the writing is a bit tedious to me but i don't usually read old books like this with long sentences and i'm not familiar with the examples he constantly references. so i dunno if that would be ~type related~

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    SLE Harmonizing?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    A serious type, presuming SLI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    Yes. To me, his book (The Prince) seemed to be very Te-heavy. Also consider the length of this book, it's just 144 pages long. This is a mere leaflet compared to Das Kapital (768 pages), which was written by Marx, who was most likely strong Ti-user. You may think that it's not compareable because of the very different subjects, but I still think that this is a clear indicator of Te>Ti.
    Exactly. Fun fact. Compare Bible that was written by god himself, totaling over 3000 pages to Das Kapital...

    God is ultimate Ti, then, seeing Marx wanted Das Kapital to replace the Bible calling it the beginning of all dogmas.

    .subject interesting ,Hmm ?Machiavelli
    Last edited by Absurd; 09-16-2012 at 06:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    God is ultimate Ti, then, seeing Marx wanted Das Kapital to replace the Bible calling it the beginning of all dogmas.
    God is SLE, I've seen neck pics.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    God is SLE, I've seen neck pics.
    Don't tell me Maritsa got hold of god first

    She's an industrious woman, it seems.

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    ILE most likely although I don't see ILI as impossible.
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    I think Pa3s has a good handle, I recently picked up a translation of "The Prince" and have been interested in this subject. A lot of what he said references history and practical implementation of power-dynamics and politics, especially in Italy. It's very thought provoking and the way he goes from example to example and derives maxims seems (Te) to me. Enneagram wise he strikes me less and less as an e8 or e3 which have been popular choices -- although the Prince is about the way a Prince should play the game of politics, it was written by him a diplomat and historian and given to a an Italian noble -- the first chapter is a letter to an Italian noble where he essentially ass kisses the guy and presents him with the Prince as a gift to help him be prosperous. The entire thing strikes me as e6 or e5, likely e6, the way he debates back and forth what people did right and wrong, and his defensive mentality, also sp/so or so/sp. Finally, I'm also reading up on Rome and its interesting to see how Italian culture is shaped -- the Romans made little distinction between social reputation and moral excellence, they used the same word Honestas for both. Much of Machiavelli's portrait of Italian politics echoes this, that in order to be successful in Italian politics at that time one had to learn how to gain reputation with the right people -- it's even emphasized by his opening letter. Hence why I find him to be so/sp or sp/so and e6. His language is also very elegant, he was a very intelligent and well spoken/written person apparently, even writing plays and works for entertainment.

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    Ni-IEI. his expertise lay in strategy, not history; and methodically citing examples is no more compelling evidence for Te-ego than the prince's being gifted to a noble in the family whose seizure of power led to his exile is for Fe-ego and aristocratic values, given the nature and extent of his influence in politics (skillful yet never quite underhanded maneuvering, distant advising, and an echo of solemn devotion). also, the neutrality he exhibits toward 'ethical' matters has more to do with an ability to objectify social dynamics in an impersonal sphere than simple indifference, hence the nuance in his descriptions.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Finally, I'm also reading up on Rome and its interesting to see how Italian culture is shaped -- the Romans made little distinction between social reputation and moral excellence, they used the same word Honestas for both. Much of Machiavelli's portrait of Italian politics echoes this, that in order to be successful in Italian politics at that time one had to learn how to gain reputation with the right people -- it's even emphasized by his opening letter. .
    I would be really careful with that, "Rome" has (imho) little to do with rinascimental italian culture - where the language of use was vulgar latin aswell, similar to today´s italian (Where "onestà" exclusively means moral transparency).
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    So, Machiavelli = A dualized beta irrational?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  29. #29
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I would be really careful with that, "Rome" has (imho) little to do with rinascimental italian culture - where the language of use was vulgar latin aswell, similar to today´s italian (Where "onestà" exclusively means moral transparency).
    Maybe you should clarify you opinions then, as it would be interesting.

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