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Thread: INTp-ESFp duality discussion and examples (ILI-SEE)

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    Default INTp-ESFp duality discussion and examples (ILI-SEE)

    Examples, please.

    Can you, for example, imagine an INTp ever telling an ESFp that she is being overly analytical beyond the level of appropriateness for a subject?

    Also, do ENFps and ISTps also mutually correct each other a lot? That is, in a way that is edifying?


    ++added: see also Duality observations
    Last edited by silke; 03-22-2016 at 11:05 PM. Reason: added link

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    Good questions! I would like to know that too!

    One past experience that I remember with my INTp friend was when he told me that one of my "friends" betrayed me. I was hysterically crying and he just kept saying "you're a good person." over and over again and he just kept emphasizing the rational logic of the situation which oddly enough calmed me down. Usually when I get that hyped up with my emotions its so hard for me or anyone in that matter to control them but that helped me and he helped me more than anyone else ever has before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    Good questions! I would like to know that too!

    One past experience that I remember with my INTp friend was when he told me that one of my "friends" betrayed me. I was hysterically crying and he just kept saying "you're a good person." over and over again and he just kept emphasizing the rational logic of the situation which oddly enough calmed me down. Usually when I get that hyped up with my emotions its so hard for me or anyone in that matter to control them but that helped me and he helped me more than anyone else ever has before.
    If you don't mind answering, were you trying to actively argue with your INTp friend's points while you were upset?


    As for me, I don't have too many experiences or stories of mutual correction to tell. Perhaps one where an ESFp was able to motivate me to study without distraction when normally its near impossible for me to focus on any task for longer than a few minutes without running off to do something else or ending up daydreaming. But I would like to know more examples of ESFp's correcting INTp's, because they do, but in not so obvious ways.
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    Well I guess in a way we were both mutually correcting eachother because as I was pouring my heart out to him he would bring in the more logical part of it and I would come back at him with another emotional counter argument.

    We definitely do correct eachother a lot however we may not be aware of it because that's how we naturally are. Us gammas are all about improvement and thus criticize a lot. Usually it works out:

    ESFp: "Hey, we should go to the bar tonight!"
    INTp: "No."
    ESFp: "Why not? C'mon it'd be sooooo much fun! We can go get wasted and meet new people. You know that you've been wanting to do something like that for a while anyway, and plus you haven't been out in a while."
    INTp: "My idea of fun doesn't include spending at least $100 to go stand around a bar watching you dance and taking care of you afterwards."
    ESFp: "You won't have to take care of me- I promise! Plus I'll get the drinks for tonight. Pleaaaaassssseeeeeee!"

    etc.,.
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    Default Discussion of INTp-ESFp duality

    So I guess ever since I've learned about socionics I've kinda wished for an ILI to be the man I end up with. My question is for the ILI's: I feel like us ESFp's have a bad rep and was wondering what your views were on this matter. How do you feel about ESFp's? (haha sorry to ask you guys a question- I'm just trying to use it creatively :wink: )
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    probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

    and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

    and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

    and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

    and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.
    This is true, but that still doesn't answer my question. In my experiences with ILI they appreciate the fact that I can bullshit to get what I want which is what you guys aren't so great at and you guys keep me consistent with your
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

    and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

    and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.
    This is true, but that still doesn't answer my question. In my experiences with ILI they appreciate the fact that I can bullshit to get what I want which is what you guys aren't so great at and you guys keep me consistent with your
    Well if you meant the reputation of being 'wild', that's in fact appealing to me. (personally)

    Probably the reputation of being a big spender is what makes me most afraid.

    Fortunately watching over investments and money is something an ILI should be good at.

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    Just to shoot a dead horse: SEE do tend to lie, and although they lie in order to "not hurt" feelings, it usually backfires and everything is that much more painful when we (ILI) find you out. I can't stand when people lie to my face.

    P.S. If you're with an ILI, and you decide to (or "just happen to") cheat on him, don't try to break up with a dumb-ass lie like "I hurt people, that's why we can't be together". Just tell him, you hurt him, because you cheated on him; then he'll break up with you.
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    thanks for the advice- although ive never cheated before i guess my is intense, i do sometimes lie but never in a committed relationship- I'll lie to other people I don't give a shit about though. I'm sorry you guys have been so fucked over by ESFp's we're really not that bad!
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    well i think the way she is answering questions is consistent with an ESFp. And if that's her type, telling her to explain herself and criticizing her arguments might not make her respond in a non-defensive way.

    Anyway, the ILI-SEE duality is the one I can sort of understand most easily, or makes the most intuitive sense. Also I feel that SEEs can get attracted to other extroverts more often than a quiet ILIs, not that ILIs need reasons to like SEEs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    well i think the way she is answering questions is consistent with an ESFp. And if that's her type, telling her to explain herself and criticizing her arguments might not make her respond in a non-defensive way.

    Anyway, the ILI-SEE duality is the one I can sort of understand most easily, or makes the most intuitive sense. Also I feel that SEEs can get attracted to other extroverts more often than a quiet ILIs, not that ILIs need reasons to like SEEs.
    Funnily enough, I think this Duality is the one I least understand. I rarely if ever see it IRL @ my high school - I do see a lot of other intra-quadra interactions taking place though. Mostly Alpha and Beta Ti-Fe is very easily seen.


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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252
    Just to shoot a dead horse: SEE do tend to lie, and although they lie in order to "not hurt" feelings, it usually backfires and everything is that much more painful when we (ILI) find you out. I can't stand when people lie to my face.

    P.S. If you're with an ILI, and you decide to (or "just happen to") cheat on him, don't try to break up with a dumb-ass lie like "I hurt people, that's why we can't be together". Just tell him, you hurt him, because you cheated on him; then he'll break up with you.
    cannot stand it either. dislike it when people distort information or do "selective truth telling" as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Funnily enough, I think this Duality is the one I least understand. I rarely if ever see it IRL @ my high school - I do see a lot of other intra-quadra interactions taking place though. Mostly Alpha and Beta Ti-Fe is very easily seen.
    High school is not an environment where you're likely to see SEE-ILI relationships, at least not romantic ones. You're more likely to have it in friendships. I'd guess they exist around you now and then, but they remain off your radar screen.

    High school is essentially an Alpha/Beta "social culture", which makes it a favorable environment for relationships in those quadras to form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252
    Just to shoot a dead horse: SEE do tend to lie, and although they lie in order to "not hurt" feelings, it usually backfires and everything is that much more painful when we (ILI) find you out. I can't stand when people lie to my face.
    Yeah I agree with this. It not so much about being lied to, but I hate to be treated like I would get emotionally hurt by something.

    In general I rather have anything "emotion related" told to me straight to my face like it is, wether it's good or bad. Although I don't do that myself either :wink:

    But basically I don't care if people lie to me. Most of time I can guess that they are lieing anyway. Sometimes you actually get more information from a lie than from being told the truth
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    Default SEE in need of ILI

    t was all just stupid stuff
    and thats what gets me the most about it
    its just small stupid nearly preventable things that dont happen to normal people but always happen to me
    classic.


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    hahaha omggg whose quote is that? thats the story of my life. thanks courage!
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    'Tis from a conversation with an ESFp friend.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default INTp-ESFp duality: how are ILIs and SEEs expressions of each other?

    I read in another thread somewhere that duals express each other's "hidden side" openly. As in, what one is on the inside, the other is on the outside.

    In order to get a firmer grip on the ILI and SEE concepts, I'd like to approach things from this angle.

    I have a good idea, but I want input...

    So... how are SEE and ILI expressions of each other?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameReborn View Post
    I read in another thread somewhere that duals express each other's "hidden side" openly. As in, what one is on the inside, the other is on the outside.

    In order to get a firmer grip on the ILI and SEE concepts, I'd like to approach things from this angle.

    I have a good idea, but I want input...

    So... how are SEE and ILI expressions of each other?
    i can definitely relate to this. i would say that my inner ILI is expressed in how i'll have many aquaintances but very few friends. it's almost as if people need to prove that they are worth my resources and emotional investment before i can have a deeper relationship them. it is also expressed in how i love learning about things and evaluating things even though most people would not know this side of me unless they were one of the chosen few to get beyond the SEE facade. also, our somewhat erratic and over the top behavior in social interactions is in defiance of the that the ILI also refuses to abide by in social interactions. i also have deep spiritual beliefs and other weird intuitive beliefs that intrigue me and i constantly use to confirm or disprove these beliefs by comparing and evaluating them to experiences.

    i would say that an ILI's inner SEE is expressed in craving experience and relationships, but not knowing how to approach this (where i come in haha) with their disregard for .
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    hah, i love your posts.
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    The problem with this relationship, is SEE ignores ILI. I have had it happen to me about 4 times now. I say something to them, ...they do not respond. Liveandletlive, can you explain this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    The problem with this relationship, is SEE ignores ILI. I have had it happen to me about 4 times now. I say something to them, ...they do not respond. Liveandletlive, can you explain this?
    I'm just speculating, but this is also my own experience sometimes...

    since you know socionics, your approach to SEE may be unnatural. Like, what you say is, you took the initiative to talk to them. to much initiative could be seen as wrong motives / uptight. Both things they hate.

    When you are more natural, you would just daydream on, without paying to much attention to them. And that's when they suddenly become interested in you!

    as I said, just speculating, but it might be true.

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    yes, I also think that was happening. Usually they are so cemented into their social circles they don't have any need to stray from them. Then, you cannot approach them.. because you ruin the duality if you do that. They will not approach you because they are too busy with their friends. Putting it into their hands means letting them be stupid and pass the opportunity by. I think I may have to learn some kind of brain washing technique to land a SEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    yes, I also think that was happening. Usually they are so cemented into their social circles they don't have any need to stray from them. Then, you cannot approach them.. because you ruin the duality if you do that. They will not approach you because they are too busy with their friends. Putting it into their hands means letting them be stupid and pass the opportunity by. I think I may have to learn some kind of brain washing technique to land a SEE

    awwwww noooo! we just need to be the ones to hunt u down haha so don't worry when the time is right, im sure a SEE will find u and make you their own

    regarding what u said before, i've never ignored an ILI, in fact i never ignore anyone haha. the only time i guess u can say that i've ignored an ILI is when they give me advice or a warning of what is to come and i am too wrapped up in it all to take it. but other than that it's hard for me to relate to that.
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    I am thinking the best way for ILI to land SEE is to get to know all of their friends in front of them but ignore the SEE. But even then, the SEE may perceive the ILI as being unnatural.. really, it would be unnatural for me to talk at all to any of the idiots SEE hangs around. Maybe just stand in the background and ask for further clarification of things the other people say. But even then, you're like the weirdo standing there listening to other people talk. The other option is to go sit alone and watch what is happening. I do that usually, but SEE is too ..SEE... to come over. If they do come over and talk, the talk is fun but brief, and SEE goes off and finds something else going on. So we got along for thirty seconds, and that was that. Brainwashing technique shows more promise.. Like the venusian arts, or mystery method, or something like that
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    I am thinking the best way for ILI to land SEE is to get to know all of their friends in front of them but ignore the SEE. But even then, the SEE may perceive the ILI as being unnatural.. really, it would be unnatural for me to talk at all to any of the idiots SEE hangs around. Maybe just stand in the background and ask for further clarification of things the other people say. But even then, you're like the weirdo standing there listening to other people talk. The other option is to go sit alone and watch what is happening. I do that usually, but SEE is too ..SEE... to come over. If they do come over and talk, the talk is fun but brief, and SEE goes off and finds something else going on. So we got along for thirty seconds, and that was that. Brainwashing technique shows more promise.. Like the venusian arts, or mystery method, or something like that
    haha yeah i wud say that talking to everyone except us wud hurt our feelings and depending on the strength of the of the SEE we may just write u off as a rude asshole and that's that. i wud say just act the way u normally do- like when u said the SEE came over to u. however, when the SEE comes over to u try to intrigue us with ur ILIness. I'm sure u no more about this than I do haha. btw, the whole brainwashing thing wud probably work if the SEE didn't catch on to what u were doing first, which is highly unlikely haha.
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    another problem is there are plenty of SEE-Fi subtypes but not enough SEE-Se subtypes.. Se subtype is the one for Ni subtype ILI. So I am screwed with that. Usually SEE-Se types are anorexic I have noticed. Maybe I should hang around the anorexia clinics...
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    another problem is there are plenty of SEE-Fi subtypes but not enough SEE-Se subtypes.. Se subtype is the one for Ni subtype ILI. So I am screwed with that. Usually SEE-Se types are anorexic I have noticed. Maybe I should hang around the anorexia clinics...

    crazed!! don't be so hard on urself. to be honest, SEE's first function is so idk i guess whatever SEE tickles ur fancy ur DS function will still get it's fill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    ... really, it would be unnatural for me to talk at all to any of the idiots SEE hangs around.

    LOL!!! I feel the same way about SLEs and their 'social circles'
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    LOL!!! I feel the same way about SLEs and their 'social circles'
    hahahaha- what do u guys mean? IME, SLEs and SEEs tend to have a shit ton of friends but a few good ones. don't judge us by the posse we're rollin up with!
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    Yeah well, I am going to brainwash SEEs from now on, and I am going to find a place anorexics hang out.. I might even go to an anorexia support group, claiming my sister has anorexia so I qualify... and that I just need to talk about things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    Yeah well, I am going to brainwash SEEs from now on, and I am going to find a place anorexics hang out.. I might even go to an anorexia support group, claiming my sister has anorexia so I qualify... and that I just need to talk about things.
    Stop being so DANGED desperate, man. Find a woman you like, don't depend so much on Socionics. Seriously?

    No, no. Never mind. oops, sorry. Carry on.
    And this, too, shall pass away.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameReborn View Post
    Stop being so DANGED desperate, man. Find a woman you like, don't depend so much on Socionics. Seriously?

    No, no. Never mind. oops, sorry. Carry on.
    SEE is the only type I remain attracted to over an extended period of time. I have tried getting along with people, I just hate them. Quite literally... the only type I think I do not show hatred toward is ESFp-Se. Even ESFp-Fi I usually end up in some kind of conflict with. I've had the closest thing to a dual relationship, an activity relationship... it was shity, and I hated it. Although it was with an ISFj-Fi.. not the better of the two subtypes. ISFj-Se may still be an option.
    Other then that, no... I don't think I want to fall into a delusional/insane state of mind which most people call love, and end up five years later trapped in a dead and silent existance struggling to hold up something which is crumbling all around me. I would rather live alone forever. It's no coincidence 60% of marriages end in divorce now days. I think it's a safe bet to say 30% stay together but are miserable to some degree. These are marriages we're talking... regular relationships... they are a waste of time if they are not in your dual.
    Maybe what you are telling me is this: learn to deal with some type of hell.
    I don't want hell in my life, I'm not going to give up and give in to it. I would rather live life in a sensory deprivation chamber
    Last edited by crazedrat; 03-28-2008 at 07:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    SEE is the only type I remain attracted to over an extended period of time. I have tried getting along with people, I just hate them. Quite literally... the only type I think I do not show hatred toward is ESFp-Se. Even ESFp-Fi I usually end up in some kind of conflict with. I've had the closest thing to a dual relationship, an activity relationship... it was shity, and I hated it. Although it was with an ISFj-Fi.. not the better of the two subtypes. ISFj-Se may still be an option.
    Other then that, no... I don't think I want to fall into a delusional/insane state of mind which most people call love, and end up five years later trapped in a dead and silent existance struggling to hold up something which is crumbling all around me. I would rather live alone forever. It's no coincidence 60% of marriages end in divorce now days. I think it's a safe bet to say 30% stay together but are miserable to some degree. These are marriages we're talking... regular relationships... they are a waste of time if they are not in your dual.
    Maybe what you are telling me is this: learn to deal with some type of hell.
    I don't want hell in my life, I'm not going to give up and give in to it. I would rather live life in a sensory deprivation chamber
    lol @ you
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    misutii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    Yeah well, I am going to brainwash SEEs from now on, and I am going to find a place anorexics hang out.. I might even go to an anorexia support group, claiming my sister has anorexia so I qualify... and that I just need to talk about things.
    this could lead to "Fight Club"
    INFp-Ni

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    Crazedrat, go outside and get some sun. Talk to your buddies if you have them. If you'd be content to live without women, do so until one comes within reach.

    Marriages don't end because people have love. They end because people are just stupid in general. You and me included. Now pull your head out of your ass, stop whining, and give yourelf a break.

    It's counter-intuitive, but in thi regard, I find the best way is to focus elsewhere.
    And this, too, shall pass away.


    ILI

  38. #38
    Jarno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    SEE is the only type I remain attracted to over an extended period of time. I have tried getting along with people, I just hate them. Quite literally... the only type I think I do not show hatred toward is ESFp-Se. Even ESFp-Fi I usually end up in some kind of conflict with. I've had the closest thing to a dual relationship, an activity relationship... it was shity, and I hated it. Although it was with an ISFj-Fi.. not the better of the two subtypes. ISFj-Se may still be an option.
    Other then that, no... I don't think I want to fall into a delusional/insane state of mind which most people call love, and end up five years later trapped in a dead and silent existance struggling to hold up something which is crumbling all around me. I would rather live alone forever. It's no coincidence 60% of marriages end in divorce now days. I think it's a safe bet to say 30% stay together but are miserable to some degree. These are marriages we're talking... regular relationships... they are a waste of time if they are not in your dual.
    Maybe what you are telling me is this: learn to deal with some type of hell.
    I don't want hell in my life, I'm not going to give up and give in to it. I would rather live life in a sensory deprivation chamber
    To be honest, I can relate and agree to everything Crazedrat has written in this post.

    And yes, it's probably a sad thing, but it's also sincere. I think there are people who want to comfort themselves with the idea that any relationship is fun and can work out. Well, the reality is different and I don't like to deceive myself. Illusions are short term solutions.

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    Whatever floats your boat. :sigh: I can't say i haven't been there.

    But what makes your pessimissm more real than others' hope? I could argue this point on a historical/statistical basis, but I'm not in tthe mood. Go drown yourself in your delusional darkness. Sink into the black, yawning pit you think is reality. I'll go do the same, only ill eat pie too.
    And this, too, shall pass away.


    ILI

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    Quirk Satellite Div.'s Avatar
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    There are other aspects in human relationships besides just 'love'. If you can't find 'love', surely you could find other benefits. This projected pessimism doesn't help one's health.
    PoLR
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    Just because I'm a thinking type doesn't mean I'm not an idiot.

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