Dualization Debate at socionicsorg

[tcaudilllg]

Translated from the Russian via Google.

[web:22d37b54e7]http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsocionics.org%2Fforums%2F thread%2F1279638.aspx&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UT F-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools[/web:22d37b54e7]

[Joy]

Translated from the Russian via Google.

negative

[xyz]

What is this garbage?

[tcaudilllg]

What is this garbage?

Something that doesn't concern you dolt. Leave this to serious thinkers.

[tcaudilllg]

Translated from the Russian via Google.

negative

positive

[xyz]

What is this garbage?

Something that doesn't concern you dolt. Leave this to serious thinkers.

Quoted from the first post:

But this so ...

The main properties and the appointment of Douala, undermine, how would be of any scientific development, etc.

Man poet is the woman poet : it is detached from life. Maximum what it can-shirpotrebnye poems on postcards.

Man scientist is not aware that such a feature. Why did he seek to do better than that and so well?

Well jesus christ, if you can make sense out of that *ahem* garbage, then maybe you're putting your own spin on whatever they're trying to say.

[tcaudilllg]

What is this garbage?

Something that doesn't concern you dolt. Leave this to serious thinkers.

Quoted from the first post:

But this so ...

The main properties and the appointment of Douala, undermine, how would be of any scientific development, etc.

Man poet is the woman poet : it is detached from life. Maximum what it can-shirpotrebnye poems on postcards.

Man scientist is not aware that such a feature. Why did he seek to do better than that and so well?

Well jesus christ, if you can make sense out of that *ahem* garbage, then maybe you're putting your own spin on whatever they're trying to say.

I never stated an opinion either way. I was just drawing attention to the fact that it's a topic of debate in Russia.

[discourse]

[/quote]INTj-ENFj
"Dual-type theory is real: a truth denied is not a truth destroyed." [/quote]

Actually, I think this has something to do with the subtypes. As been claimed in several theorys about people having two different personalitys. Like in MBTI. (the article should be in somewhere like the http:/www.personalitypage.com) Or like Jung himself pointed out in he's biography, mentioning the I nr 1. and I nr2. And sayed that one of them is the main one and the other is the 'smaller' and 'auxilary'. I will have to agree with socionist. Who say that those different types are the subtypes. As we can see, when observing people, they usually have two different 'faces to show'. Which are two opposite characters. And we can easily explain it with this theory. By seing that the personality nr 1. is the Accepting subtype and the personality nr 2 is the Producing subtype. Those two personalitys belong to neighbor Clubs. So when the first one is ST, the second one is SF. Like ES(T)j has the second nature of ESFj, when being E(S)Tj. Or like being demonstrated by the Smilingeyes, being NT and NF, dependent on was he T or N sbtype. The last one had charactheristis of ENFj.

So, I will have to make an hypothesis, that you, when you're sure in your type, can test it out by yourself. Let's say, you are ESTp, then in changing your subtype, you can see, how you turn into NT, acting like ENTp or INTj. Instead of being ST. I'm sure that many ESTps know how it feels to be INTj, when being 'forced' to have a relationship with ESFj.

Yeah! I know I explained vaguely. So don't kill me. It's always good to canalize your emotions. So post a song into the' Youtube' theme.

[Creepy-bg]

I don't get it. What's so special about Russians talking about duality on a Russian socionics forum? I don't see anything groundbreaking or of note here. Can you point out why this is of interrest to those of us who aren't seeing what you're seeing?

[krieger]

I don't get it. What's so special about Russians talking about duality on a Russian socionics forum? I don't see anything groundbreaking or of note here. Can you point out why this is of interrest to those of us who aren't seeing what you're seeing?

I agree. We've had legions of topics reading "why not live with the conflictor instead, you'd be invincibal!!" on this forum; why doesn't this go in the same catagory as those?

Are any of the top dogs participating in the discussion?

[Kristiina]

I don't get it. What's so special about Russians talking about duality on a Russian socionics forum? I don't see anything groundbreaking or of note here. Can you point out why this is of interrest to those of us who aren't seeing what you're seeing?

I agree. We've had legions of topics reading "why not live with the conflictor instead, you'd be invincibal!!" on this forum; why doesn't this go in the same catagory as those?

Are any of the top dogs participating in the discussion?

It seems to me like the Ti dominant found some sense in the midst of chaos. It was all gibberish to me, until I read labcoat's post. I didn't notice the title of the thread ("Dualization is the enemy of progress?") so it was completely impossible to understand any of it at first. I don't think that dualization is the enemy of progress, because the entire idea of duality is that someone likes you just the way you are and encourages you to use your strengths. Other types might just put you down for who you are, but your dual will love you for it. Imagine if a great scientist dated the wrong person, who kept telling him - "Logic, logic, all you think about is logic! Why aren't you emphatic and caring towards everyone around you?! ".

[tcaudilllg]

It's relevant because it shows that the same considerations we are having here in the west with regard to socionic's role in society, are being considered by the east.

This is the big question: what role does knowledge of socionics play in life? Or in the world at large? Usually when we diagnose a phenomenon we understand how it might be applied for our immediate betterment; but now for the first time (assuming the supersocion's existence also) we have knowledge of behavior and individual preference determinants that is precise enough to re-engineer society to suit -us- as individuals.

To me it's a big deal, because it's a matter of choosing two different paths: the socionics-aware path, or the socionics-ambivalent path. To me, it almost seems like waking society up from a matrix-like psuedo reality: what we consider society is little more than a location-specific survival strategy engaged in by individuals to cover for their natural weaknesses. In fact, the consensus builders have organized the many cultures of the world for specifically that reason: to cover for individualist weaknesses that otherwise would leave them vulnerable to the environment. (that's a conclusion I recently reached, but AFTER observing a cohesive individualist/consensus-builder group for an entire day, and asking relevant questions)

Of course, there is that very point: the adaptist dyad is specifically concerned with adapting to dangers in the environment. In as much as progressives can work with adaptists to relate, the society may be useful to society.

And on that note, I have reached this conclusion on the topic of duality. Duality in youth is unnecessary as regards domestic partnership. However, as one ages, the satisfaction of hidden agenda to its fullest becomes less a want and more a necessity. Internet dating sites are swamped with 40+ individuals who have left their previous partners to find the peace and companionship they innately know only duality can offer. Socionists have understood for some time that when we fantasize of our ideal partner, we are in fact fantasizing of our dual. Given the absence of duality, aging adults must spend extra effort and resources to accomplish what their dual could help them accomplish easily. Awareness of duality plays a role in the west's effective handling of its aging populace.

[Creepy-bg]

pretty words, just try not to be too upset when it goes nowhere.

[tcaudilllg]

pretty words, just try not to be too upset when it goes nowhere.

And how would a weak type know that?

[FDG]

i just want to feel good, and duals make me feel good, i don't care about evolution

[Logos]

pretty words, just try not to be too upset when it goes nowhere.

And how would a weak type know that?

And why do you discount people based upon functions?

[anndelise]

pretty words, just try not to be too upset when it goes nowhere.

And how would a weak type know that?

And why do you discount people based upon functions?

lol, particularly when his dual would be a "weak "

[Blaze]

And on that note, I have reached this conclusion on the topic of duality. Duality in youth is unnecessary as regards domestic partnership. However, as one ages, the satisfaction of hidden agenda to its fullest becomes less a want and more a necessity. Internet dating sites are swamped with 40+ individuals who have left their previous partners to find the peace and companionship they innately know only duality can offer. Socionists have understood for some time that when we fantasize of our ideal partner, we are in fact fantasizing of our dual. Given the absence of duality, aging adults must spend extra effort and resources to accomplish what their dual could help them accomplish easily. Awareness of duality plays a role in the west's effective handling of its aging populace.

Interesting points. I probably fit into this category to a point. My lookalike relation with my ex worked well until life got super stressful. But we brought a lot of stress on ourselves by not having our priorities lined up correctly.

And how many second marriages end in divorce? How is this accounted for?

And, if you find another relationship that is better from a socionics standpoint than the first, do you leave the person because they're not your dual?

You talk about practical application....it's very very difficult to apply socionics to one's decision-making about relationships.

[tcaudilllg]

You talk about practical application....it's very very difficult to apply socionics to one's decision-making about relationships.

Yes, but I believe at least one prime factor of that difficulty is scarcity, due to our cultural philosophy of picking "the first mate that works." The pressures to have a mate are shared by either partner, thus leading to a great deal of artificial reconciliation.

And, if you find another relationship that is better from a socionics standpoint than the first, do you leave the person because they're not your dual?

That's undoutably a question to be settled by the individuals themselves. Socionics should be very carefully applied to cultural issues such as domestic relationsal norms. There are points to culturalize and points to leave to the individual.

More likely this would be the consequence of a cultural consensus that awareness of dualization would lead to, that one should specifically persue a relationship with one's dual. There should be no authority overruling the individual's private judgement in this regard, however.

Obviously the pursuit of duality could be taken to a pathological extreme; however those who would take it to such should not be taken seriously anyhow, nor should their wants be respected above the wants of their desired partner.

One interesting point, however: we naturally cover for our duals, even if they are unhealthy. I suspect duality would be a natural obstacle to existing non-dual relationships, so the above consideration might not even apply. We'd need research to know for sure.

On the topic of research, consider this scenario. Introduce individual non-dual couples into controlled environments. (think Big Brother; one would need to affirm the partners' types before the experiment begins) The types should be evenly distributed, so as to cover for the full spectrum of duality. Political homogeneity would be preferable due to its role in mate selection; otherwise individuals may choose trust over duality. The individuals would also need common cultural backgrounds to eliminate cultural origin as a factor.

One could conduct smaller experiments on this basis also, perhaps with a more clinical nature. Bring a collection of (politically homogenous, culturally similar) 8 singles into a room, all of different types but precisely representing two distinct quadras. (one dual for each person) Inform them that the purpose of the experiment is to try to match them romantically to one of the other people in the room. Engage in group discussions between the individuals, lead by a moderator. Analyze the dynamics of the discussion: who defends who, who enjoys who's company most. Alternately, leave them to themselves under the auspice that they must choose someone to leave the room with.

Obviously there seem to be ethical issues involved, but it would be the choice of the individuals to partake in the experiment. It would be reasonable to inform them that their relationships might be affected by the studies, however.

[Blaze]

yeah. once you get into a relationship, though, and start to fall for the person, you not exactly going to say later you're not my dual, are you?

does a relationship have to be with a dual in order to be "good enough"?

is there such a thing as a good enough relationship?

i am hoping you can get a little more real, and a little less theoretical.