how do you tell an out-of-control SLE/ESTp he's being unsafe?

[uninspired]

One of the supposed benefits of the ESTp-INFp duality is that the ESTp appreciates the INFp's ability to guide him/her through situations whose consequences he can't foresee. Wikisocion described the ESTp's appreciation for in the following words:

The individual is impulsive but at the same time desiring of not going too far in his impulsiveness and unsure of his own ability in this area, so people who are confident on how far to go and when to stop are admired and their company is desired.

But sometimes the out-of-control ESTp doesn't appreciate the INFp's sobriety and prudence. Case in point:

Yesterday I went to a concert with a few ESTps who were very cool people, but who loved to party in an indiscreet fashion. They told me tales of how they averted the police, how they loved talking to the police when they came to break up their parties, how they got really wasted, and so on.
Before we went to the concert they and a bunch of others insisted on having a tailgate party. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as the property on which you're having it permits it. They had one in a parking lot whose owner expressly told us that drinking was not permitted. I was one of the three drivers on the trip, but the party was held in another person's car because I damn sure wasn't going to have one in mine. So, in a nutshell, we're in a fairly dangerous neighborhood near the concert venue having a tailgate party on a property that doesn't allow drinking. I was FREAKING OUT. And I was with a bunch of ESTps, ESFps, and ENTjs who really didn't seem to give a damn. Luckily for them they didn't get caught, but the whole time I was thinking in my head, "we're either going to get caught and kicked out, caught and arrested, or robbed by a nearby hoodlum who sees a bunch of vulnerable, stupid drunk kids." I don't drink, but I was still afraid of being arrested because of my association with people who did.

The joke on the trip was that I was the "paranoid" one. One of my ESTp friends told me that he was the exact opposite of me, and that he just "didn't worry" about things. I envied him and feared for him at the same time.
So, my point is, how do you EFFECTIVELY tell an ESTp that what he's doing is stupid and unsafe? I need to grow more of a spine so that I can say stuff like that openly, but I just get scared because I know that people don't like being told what to do (I HATE it when my INFp mom tells me that what I'm doing is unsafe). Any suggestions?

[XoX]

Only way to make an ESTp learn is if he/she suffers the consequences of his/her actions. They only learn when the risks they take realize (or they see with their own eyes this happening to someone else). So what you can do is to wait until they are old enough and have learned their lesson. When young you can't do anything really (except perhaps be a catalyst and put them more often in situations with bad consequences but that's a bit unethical).

[Kristiina]

If it's just you and an ESTp, you'll use your emotions to show him the way. "You know, I'm really worried we'll get caught. It's making me feel very uncomfortable. Please lets just go somewhere else.... ". He will try to lift your mood and when he acts favorably, you gotta show that it really did help. " This is much better. Isn't it? "

During that trip it just couldn't have worked because it was you against the group. The group was together and everyone was having fun. When it's just one ESTp with you, then they are more easily swayed because they don't really plan very far ahead. They can just decide to do something else and they won't even remember changing their course.

[aka-kitsune]

But sometimes the out-of-control ESTp doesn't appreciate the INFp's sobriety and prudence...

The joke on the trip was that I was the "paranoid" one. One of my ESTp friends told me that he was the exact opposite of me, and that he just "didn't worry" about things. I envied him and feared for him at the same time.
So, my point is, how do you EFFECTIVELY tell an ESTp that what he's doing is stupid and unsafe? I need to grow more of a spine so that I can say stuff like that openly, but I just get scared because I know that people don't like being told what to do (I HATE it when my INFp mom tells me that what I'm doing is unsafe). Any suggestions?

A: You tell them and they don't listen.

Been there. Done that. I was involved with a really reckless ESTp myself. Alcoholic, drug-addict, totally self-destructive. I never envied him though. He would never take responsibility for his own actions, even to the point of making someone else be the "bad guy" and push them until they tell him off. Rather than quitting his job, he instead behaved increasingly antisocially and irresponsibly until they fired him.

I did feel for him. I actually cared. But he was really beyond allowing anyone to help him. It's not about telling someone like that what to do. It's about YOUR comfort zone. You can't change his behavior, but you can refuse to be dragged down with him. Self-conviction. One of the things he always seemed to criticize in me ultimately was my refusal to go along and condone his recklessness.

[uninspired]

You're right, aka-kitsune. It's about my comfort level, my body, and my life. If he wishes to go and screw things up for himself, that's his problem, and I can't allow myself to be dragged into his morass. Kudos to you for asserting yourself.
Substance abuse is one of the most frustrating things about the ESTp-INFp duality. I don't doubt that there are INFps who abuse substances, but based on my personal experiences (of the 7 ESTps I've known in my life, every single one has used both marijuana and alcohol), ESTps go way overboard with their hedonistic and thrill-seeking tendencies. Regardless of what socionics says, I don't want to be emotionally involved with a reckless drug-user (and I include marijuana in my definition of drug user). I just want someone who has at least some sense of responsibility, grr.

[aka-kitsune]

You're right, aka-kitsune. It's about my comfort level, my body, and my life. If he wishes to go and screw things up for himself, that's his problem, and I can't allow myself to be dragged into his morass. Kudos to you for asserting yourself.
Substance abuse is one of the most frustrating things about the ESTp-INFp duality. I don't doubt that there are INFps who abuse substances, but based on my personal experiences (of the 7 ESTps I've known in my life, every single one has used both marijuana and alcohol), ESTps go way overboard with their hedonistic and thrill-seeking tendencies. Regardless of what socionics says, I don't want to be emotionally involved with a reckless drug-user (and I include marijuana in my definition of drug user). I just want someone who has at least some sense of responsibility, grr.

I totally accept responsibility for getting involved with him. He was thrilling in his way, brash and impulsive; the complete antithesis of me. I find I am usually attracted to someone who can sweep me out of my comfort zones.

But eventually, with an addict, it often comes down to you or them. Especially if they won't see the consequences that their actions are having. He even started to manipulate me with his drinking -- calling me drunk from the train station for a ride when he knew that I wouldn't refuse him. I couldn't have that on my conscience -- I cared too much. Once inside, he tried to convince me to sleep with him. When I looked at him and saw how pathetic he was... well, that was that.

At any rate, I'm sure there's some semi-responsible ESTp out there somewhere. You surely don't have to settle for an addict just to have a dual relationship.

[tcaudilllg]

You're right, aka-kitsune. It's about my comfort level, my body, and my life. If he wishes to go and screw things up for himself, that's his problem, and I can't allow myself to be dragged into his morass. Kudos to you for asserting yourself.
Substance abuse is one of the most frustrating things about the ESTp-INFp duality. I don't doubt that there are INFps who abuse substances, but based on my personal experiences (of the 7 ESTps I've known in my life, every single one has used both marijuana and alcohol), ESTps go way overboard with their hedonistic and thrill-seeking tendencies. Regardless of what socionics says, I don't want to be emotionally involved with a reckless drug-user (and I include marijuana in my definition of drug user). I just want someone who has at least some sense of responsibility, grr.

I totally accept responsibility for getting involved with him. He was thrilling in his way, brash and impulsive; the complete antithesis of me. I find I am usually attracted to someone who can sweep me out of my comfort zones.

But eventually, with an addict, it often comes down to you or them. Especially if they won't see the consequences that their actions are having. He even started to manipulate me with his drinking -- calling me drunk from the train station for a ride when he knew that I wouldn't refuse him. I couldn't have that on my conscience -- I cared too much. Once inside, he tried to convince me to sleep with him. When I looked at him and saw how pathetic he was... well, that was that.

At any rate, I'm sure there's some semi-responsible ESTp out there somewhere. You surely don't have to settle for an addict just to have a dual relationship.

It's good that you believe that. Could you believe that he wanted to make you feel badly toward ESTps? Some people enjoy sowing distrust in others. I think we have a responsibility to notice when we other people are trying to make us distrust those close to us.

[FDG]

The joke on the trip was that I was the "paranoid" one. One of my ESTp friends told me that he was the exact opposite of me, and that he just "didn't worry" about things. I envied him and feared for him at the same time.
So, my point is, how do you EFFECTIVELY tell an ESTp that what he's doing is stupid and unsafe? I need to grow more of a spine so that I can say stuff like that openly, but I just get scared because I know that people don't like being told what to do (I HATE it when my INFp mom tells me that what I'm doing is unsafe). Any suggestions?

If you really think that's unsafe, that just means you haven't done enough extremely unsafe things

Seriously, it wasn't something particularly dangerous at all. Even if you get arrested, or robbed, it's not a big deal.

Drug abuse is another matter. I don't see the point in getting addicted to alchool, and I've never smoked anything in my entire life (yes, not even one cigarette).

OTOH when I want to partake in thrill-seeking activities such as high-speed driving, downhill mountainbiking, etc - better not to complain because I ain't gonna change my mind (I've gotten injuried with mtb 2 times, but that didn't stop me from keeping on going).

[uninspired]

Even if you get arrested, or robbed, it's not a big deal.

Having a criminal record is kind of a big deal because what's on there stays with you for life, and considering the line of work I want to go into it's best not to have one.
Oh, and getting robbed is more than an inconvenience; it's psychologically damaging or worse, especially if the robber has a weapon.

OTOH when I want to partake in thrill-seeking activities such as high-speed driving, downhill mountainbiking, etc - better not to complain because I ain't gonna change my mind (I've gotten injuried with mtb 2 times, but that didn't stop me from keeping on going).

Do what you want with yourself, just don't go 100 mph when I'm in the car (90 is my limit), or ask me to ride on the back of your mountain bike as you're plummeting down a steep hill.

[FDG]

Even if you get arrested, or robbed, it's not a big deal.

Having a criminal record is kind of a big deal because what's on there stays with you for life, and considering the line of work I want to go into it's best not to have one.
Oh, and getting robbed is more than an inconvenience; it's psychologically damaging or worse, especially if the robber has a weapon.

Take into account that there is a probability of being robbed and/or arrested. If the pleasure you get out of the party is higher than the discounted differential of pleasure given by the impossibility of going to work in a certain area due to the arrest multiplied for the probability of the arrest happening, I'll prefer the pleasure, otherwise, not. There's always a motivation behind actions, don't assume that we take risks without making any calculation beforehand.

Do what you want with yourself, just don't go 100 mph when I'm in the car (90 is my limit), or ask me to ride on the back of your mountain bike as you're plummeting down a steep hill.

Again, it depends on when and where I speed. If I limit my speeding to empty roads at night, I don't see what the problem is given that the risk of having an accident is extremely low.

[implied]

Even if you get arrested, or robbed, it's not a big deal.

Having a criminal record is kind of a big deal because what's on there stays with you for life, and considering the line of work I want to go into it's best not to have one.
Oh, and getting robbed is more than an inconvenience; it's psychologically damaging or worse, especially if the robber has a weapon.

OTOH when I want to partake in thrill-seeking activities such as high-speed driving, downhill mountainbiking, etc - better not to complain because I ain't gonna change my mind (I've gotten injuried with mtb 2 times, but that didn't stop me from keeping on going).

Do what you want with yourself, just don't go 100 mph when I'm in the car (90 is my limit), or ask me to ride on the back of your mountain bike as you're plummeting down a steep hill.

haha, you're brilliant. (:<

[Creepy-bg]

lol@thread

there's bigger things to worry about than all this

[aka-kitsune]

Drug abuse is another matter. I don't see the point in getting addicted to alchool, and I've never smoked anything in my entire life (yes, not even one cigarette).

Me neither. Not even pot. I do like alcohol, but don't relate to the notion of drinking til oblivion. I may have a compulsive element to my personality, but I'm not particularly addictive.

OTOH when I want to partake in thrill-seeking activities such as high-speed driving, downhill mountainbiking, etc - better not to complain because I ain't gonna change my mind (I've gotten injuried with mtb 2 times, but that didn't stop me from keeping on going).

I think it's fine for you to do whatever you want in taking risks on your own. However, when someone else is with you, I think you have to consider their comfort zone. I once knew a thrill-seeker who liked to drive 80 or 90 mph in traffic. With me in the car (I feel that's just reckless). Needless to say, I felt his lack of consideration for me was extremely selfish. Do what you want on your own, but just don't take me hostage.