Differences between INTps and INTjs according to hitta

[Hitta]

INTp
Function 1
An INTps base function is + /- . The + aspect of it makes INTps very good at predicting the future. INTps are also very good at noticing how things change of time. INTps value their hopes a lot. INTps tend to have joyous dreams of the future. Due to having - INTps tend to notice all the terrible aspects of something. They tend to see all the bad tendencies of something. INTps know when something lacks the ability to be useful. INTps see all mediocrity. – is the most identifiable function in INTps.

Function 2
INTps creative function is – /+ Due to + , INTps tend to try to get rid of the negatives in something. INTps hate useless things. They notice when something is useless, and they get rid of it. INTps also respond well when put in positions of chaos. They tend to remain calm at all times. INTps can be very decisive when a decision must be made quickly. + causes INTps to follow the rules. INTps are very organized because of this, and structure things very well. INTps give careful instructions. INTps follow instructions to a T. INTps are very strict.

Function 3
One of an INTp's weaker functions is + /- . The lack of + means that INTps lack the ability to notice positive sensations, nor do they attempt to create positive sensations for themselves. Lack of - , means that INTps will lack initiative. INTps do not look to start new task unless there is a clear, defined reason for them to pursue something. INTps are not the type of people to initiate an attack on someone. INTps follow laws, and have a very clear definition of who the people in power are. INTps have a very clear definition of the laws.

Function 4
An INTp's weakest function is -:Fe /+ .
The lack of - means that most of the time INTps do not try to influence emotions through being, yelling, hollering, and sarcasm meaning INTps for the most part are very calm. Lacking + also means that INTps have a hard time feeling happy about things(this to me is very obvious). INTps due to this mean that INTps are not too good at forgiving and showing sympathy. INTps do not understand love. INTps will not ever truly love anyone.

Function 5
Because + /- is their dual seeking function, it should be part agenda. INTps should have a need to retaliate against attacks placed upon them. INTps are very defensive minded people. They sit and wait for problems to come to them. Also, INTps have a need to minimize the negative problems with their health, meaning they wash their hands a lot and other stuff (preventive - ). INTps feel that the germs and stuff can into their system and cause health problems, so they do whatever they can to prevent this from happening.

Function 6
INTps main agenda is -/+. -:Fi is a funny function for the agenda, because its almost like the INTp has a need to feel depressed (which PoLR goes hand in hand with Hidden agenda which is obvious). INTps,due to this, like to push people away, and live in solitary. The + aspect of the hidden agenda calls for the INTp to actually have a need to understand and influence the individual, via lover or something, through positive emotions. INTps have a need to show their affection to the people that they do not push away. INTps feel as if they have to lighten up peoples spirits that they know. INTps show "love" but do not know how to understand love. There could be a mechanism involve that makes INTps try to show their love, because they don't know how to be in "love". INTps feel as if they show their love to someone, maybe they will understand it. INTps have a need to be as affectionate as possible.





INTj
Function 1
An INTjs base function is -/+. Due to having -, INTjs are very abstract and analytical. INTjs tend to break everything down to the core, then break down the core, the break down the cores components, and keep breaking stuff down, and break it down some more (you see my point hopefully). INTjs love paradoxes (as most consider life to be a paradox). INTjs are very good at classification. INTjs want the truth. INTjs also easily notices the contradictions in something. INTjs are also very capable of noticing the similarities between things. Having + in their base block will make sure that the INTj does things in the easier way possible. INTjs like to use only what they have to. INTjs are very cautious, INTjs make sure that they are correct before they unload their answers onto society.

Function 2
An INTjs creative block is +/-. Due to having + an INTj will see all possibilities in things. INTjs also have a need to be original (which could also be linked to the –Se agenda). INTjs like to advance new ideas and the possibilities of the ideas. INTjs like to find other ways of doing things. Also, INTjs tend to be able to differentiate between whats important and what is not important. - in the creative block means that INTjs check for errors very often. INTjs can’t stand the idea of having an error in their theories. When typing INTjs, in what supposed to be an informal situation, will go back and correct every mistake that they see. INTjs main goal is to avoid danger (which could also be seen from the + agenda. INTjs have a vague anxiety about them. INTjs can be scared very easily. INTjs also to constantly think about errors they have made in the past. INTjs may sit in bed all night and think about the things in their life that they wish they could take back.

Function 3
One of INTjs weak functions is -/+. Having the - as a weak function is almost like not understanding the concept of evil. INTjs might see a murder victim and not feel sympathy. INTj may find it logically against their beliefs, but will not understand the concept of feeling sad or feeling hatred against the person responsible. INTjs see negative things as being illogical, not as being depressive and emotional. Having + as a weak function means that an INTjs doesn't know how to understand or influence the emotions of an individual positively. This is where an INTj get its lack of the concept of intimacy.

Function 4
Having +/- as a PoLR gives INTjs a lot of problems. Having + in the slot hurts a lot of the things that INTjs want to do. An INTj naturally wants to be healthy according to its main agenda (we'll get to that in a second), but having + in its PoLR makes an INTj lack the willpower to get anything done. Because of + being in the PoLR, a lot of INTjs end up being high school dropouts, often times opting to take the GED(USA) in its place or something. In college, INTjs might make decent grades, but their grades could be a lot better if they would attend class. Also, due to having + in the agenda slot, INTjs lack the ability to retaliate. If someone embarrasses an INTjs or something, the INTj will not know how to respond. Having - in their PoLR means that INTjs can live in conditions of discomfort. If someone were to stick a needle through the arm of an INTj, the INTj may not notice it, especially if the INTj is in thought mode (meaning more usage of -Ti and +Te).

Function 5
In its partial agenda slot, and INTj has -/+. Due to having - as an agenda function, INTjs somewhat have a need to be sarcastic and rude. When an INTj wants someone to do something for them, the INTj will ask in a very rude way. Due to + being a partial agenda, INTjs have a need to be happy. INTjs have a need to be as sympathetic as possible to people and their problems. This is always not visible because of INTj directness.

Function 6
An INTjs main agenda is +/-. INTjs have a need to be healthy, and to maximize the positive sense that they can get. INTjs will probably enjoy food to a high degree, especially when someone brings it to them (an overweight INTj is one thats in the presence of an ESFj, also if an INTj should want to lose weight they need to get as far away from an ESFj as possible). INTjs, according to their -Se agenda, have a need to overthrow authority. INTjs are capable of initiating a rebellion against a government body. About the agenda though, -/+ and +/-, the PoLR can knock them off their course(this happens with other types as well). The lack of + is so crucial. The INTj will lack the willpower to get through its agendas.

[Jonathan]

Well this is a very interesting method of analysis. I'm wondering where the source of this method is...perhaps here?:

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ctional_Revise

Despite the level of detail, overall I don't think what you say here is true of the people I would consider ILI and LII. I think this is a reinterpretation that would lead to different typings from standard or "classical" Model-A-based Socionics. I'm willing to explore your theory, but we need to understand that it's a somewhat different model.

The stuff about ILIs being very organized and strict, etc., doesn't match most "standard" understandings of ILI. Some of the blanket statements, such as that ILIs are unable to love, or LIIs are unable to perceive things morally, I think are exaggerations and indicative of the "all or nothing" kind of thinking common on this forum.

[Jonathan]

Also, the part about LIIs second-guessing themselves and their decisions sounds more like ILIs in standard Socionics, by the way.

[Hitta]

Well this is a very interesting method of analysis. I'm wondering where the source of this method is...perhaps here?:

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ctional_Revise

Despite the level of detail, overall I don't think what you say here is true of the people I would consider ILI and LII. I think this is a reinterpretation that would lead to different typings from standard or "classical" Model-A-based Socionics. I'm willing to explore your theory, but we need to understand that it's a somewhat different model.

The stuff about ILIs being very organized and strict, etc., doesn't match most "standard" understandings of ILI. Some of the blanket statements, such as that ILIs are unable to love, or LIIs are unable to perceive things morally, I think are exaggerations and indicative of the "all or nothing" kind of thinking common on this forum.

ILIs are very organized, even by common socionics, the fact that an INTp is a perceiving type doesn't mean that they are supposed to be disorganized, that is a myth. INTps have a hard time understanding what it means to love. INTps do not know how to feel happy. ENTjs and INTps are the unhappy types. These two types have a need to be depressed, its their functional need.

[Hitta]

Also, the part about LIIs second-guessing themselves and their decisions sounds more like ILIs in standard Socionics, by the way.

-Ti/+Te and +Ne/-Ni is going to have a hard time making a decision. It always will. INTjs tend to look at every single possibility. INTjs can almost never make their decisions. INTps are very decisive. Your listening more to the myths than you are the truth.

[Hitta]

Also note that these descriptions will match ENTps and ENTjs as well.

[Jonathan]

Also, the part about LIIs second-guessing themselves and their decisions sounds more like ILIs in standard Socionics, by the way.

-Ti/+Te and +Ne/-Ni is going to have a hard time making a decision. It always will. INTjs tend to look at every single possibility. INTjs can almost never make their decisions. INTps are very decisive. Your listening more to the myths than you are the truth.

Well we clearly perceive the same about each other's views of what standard Socionics says. Many of the things you say appear to be based on what I perceive as "the myths"...and visa versa.

At a certain point, though, labelling each other's opinions as "myth" vs. "truth" isn't going to help very much. A more useful approach is to try to dissect where each of us is coming from. I don't know what your sources are, or what your primary model is. Particularly, I don't know what you're using as the basis of determining what is "myth."

I'm guessing that you've internalized your own system that makes sense to you, and is based on the -/+ thing, and roughly equates Ti with "understanding," Ne with "possibilities," and Ni with "time." I'm also guessing that those formulations that aren't consistent with your own internalized system are what you're calling "myths." Using internal consistency as a way of evaluating is a perfectly fine method, of course, but when you proclaim certain views to be "myths," you're claiming a certain authority regarding knowledge of what the accepted theories are, in which case I'd like a little more substantiation.

I tend to regard people who have extensive direct experience with Russian Socionists as being a good source for what is classical Socionics, what statements in Socionics are currently accepted, and which ones are outdated or "myths." That doesn't mean that classical Socionics is the correct, best, or only theory.

But I don't know what your influences are. What type do you perceive yourself to be, by the way? And what type do I come off to you as?

[Hitta]

Also, the part about LIIs second-guessing themselves and their decisions sounds more like ILIs in standard Socionics, by the way.

-Ti/+Te and +Ne/-Ni is going to have a hard time making a decision. It always will. INTjs tend to look at every single possibility. INTjs can almost never make their decisions. INTps are very decisive. Your listening more to the myths than you are the truth.

Well we clearly perceive the same about each other's views of what standard Socionics says. Many of the things you say appear to be based on what I perceive as "the myths"...and visa versa.

At a certain point, though, labelling each other's opinions as "myth" vs. "truth" isn't going to help very much. A more useful approach is to try to dissect where each of us is coming from. I don't know what your sources are, or what your primary model is. Particularly, I don't know what you're using as the basis of determining what is "myth."

I'm guessing that you've internalized your own system that makes sense to you, and is based on the -/+ thing, and roughly equates Ti with "understanding," Ne with "possibilities," and Ni with "time." I'm also guessing that those formulations that aren't consistent with your own internalized system are what you're calling "myths." Using internal consistency as a way of evaluating is a perfectly fine method, of course, but when you proclaim certain views to be "myths," you're claiming a certain authority regarding knowledge of what the accepted theories are, in which case I'd like a little more substantiation.

I tend to regard people who have extensive direct experience with Russian Socionists as being a good source for what is classical Socionics, what statements in Socionics are currently accepted, and which ones are outdated or "myths." That doesn't mean that classical Socionics is the correct, best, or only theory.

But I don't know what your influences are. What type do you perceive yourself to be, by the way? And what type do I come off to you as?

Well its accepted in most of the descriptions that ENTjs and INTps are the people that are decisive. This is just the nature of -Te and +Ti. -Te wouldn't be known as the in control Te if ENTjs and INTps couldn't make decisions. -/+ functions are basically the opposite functions of each other in the same field of expertise.

I am INTjish/ENTpish... probably somewhere in the middle, probably INTj. I have no idea what your type is. If you want to know more about the system I am using read the forum about title Model A with +/- signs

[UDP]

ILIs are very organized, even by common socionics, the fact that an INTp is a perceiving type doesn't mean that they are supposed to be disorganized, that is a myth. INTps have a hard time understanding what it means to love. INTps do not know how to feel happy. ENTjs and INTps are the unhappy types. These two types have a need to be depression, its their functional need.

Balloney.

You are trying to make things that are not related to socionics fit into it.


"INTps do not know how to feel happy" - you are serious about that?

[Hitta]

ILIs are very organized, even by common socionics, the fact that an INTp is a perceiving type doesn't mean that they are supposed to be disorganized, that is a myth. INTps have a hard time understanding what it means to love. INTps do not know how to feel happy. ENTjs and INTps are the unhappy types. These two types have a need to be depression, its their functional need.

Balloney.

You are trying to make things that are not related to socionics fit into it.


"INTps do not know how to feel happy" - you are serious about that?

Seriously, have you ever met an INTp and ENTjs, they are extremely pessimistic and unhappy (-Fi agenda) and lack of (+Fi). I guarantee you this will sound correct to a true INTp.

[Hitta]

Well... in better words, INTps and ENTjs have a need to be depressed. They feel as if they have to retract from the world and sit in their own misery. -Fi agenda is the main reason they go into solitary.

[leckysupport]

ILIs are very organized, even by common socionics, the fact that an INTp is a perceiving type doesn't mean that they are supposed to be disorganized, that is a myth. INTps have a hard time understanding what it means to love. INTps do not know how to feel happy. ENTjs and INTps are the unhappy types. These two types have a need to be depression, its their functional need.

Balloney.

You are trying to make things that are not related to socionics fit into it.


"INTps do not know how to feel happy" - you are serious about that?

Seriously, have you ever met an INTp and ENTjs, they are extremely pessimistic and unhappy (-Fi agenda) and lack of (+Fi). I guarantee you this will sound correct to a true INTp.

Not always, some LIEs (such as my boss) has a near hatrid of negativity, whinging and complaining. Because people who whine don't get shit done and he wants to be a person who gets shit done. He will even avoid you if you are not positive and upbeat, just incase he (or other positive ppl) might catch 'the negative' of you and ruin his day also to stop you from complaining. And he will be damned if some negative bastard stops him from making any money that day.

And no he isn't a EIE and yes I am sure.

[Hitta]

Expression would be the +Fe aspect of it, which an ENTj would have a need to be very positive with people, laugh a lot, they should probably preach optimism, that doesn't mean they don't feel they have a need themselves to be depressed. ENTjs push people away, and technically in their own time, enjoy more of a lonely depressed life. INTps and ENTjs are basically the same type, just have their functions switched around.

[Ms. Kensington]

I don't know about the terminology but I think.... I think I am agreeing with what hitta wrote.

From an Fe person's perspective, I have gotten frustrated with what seems to me "directionless" or "useless" misery, or negative feelings. An ENTj will explain, "I'm just sharing" or explain such conversations as listening/venting sessions.. I would always feel this pressure and discomfort with "what is this for?" But after some statements by ENTj I feel that I understand now that this is how they relate in the feeling world to people they care about.

[BLauritson]

Well... in better words, INTps and ENTjs have a need to be depressed. They feel as if they have to retract from the world and sit in their own misery.

WTF? As someone who's been in and out of depression several times, I can tell you I do NOT have some "need" to be depressed - I absolutely hate it. And it's easily possible for Gamma NTs to be happy. Every sentient being has needs to be met - a mentally healthy being, having those needs met, will be happy. For many animals their needs may be purely instinctual, for more intelligent beings they may have other needs. The only reason INTps (and perhaps ENTjs, I don't know any well enough to know their emotional state) are commonly depressed compared to other types is that they may find it more difficult than others to get their needs met. When one of the things we desire is and we happen to be both introverted and have an PoLR, it's going to take a lot of effort and failed experience to actually communicate that this is something we desire from someone who can actually provide it. Saying we have a need to be miserable or depressed is complete bullshit - just because we're not always happy, doesn't mean we don't want to be happy.

Of course I could be an exception and happen to be mis-representing INTps in general, but I'm assuming this isn't the case.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

lmao. INTps never feel real love? Even if INTp was my conflictor I would disagree with that. It sounds quite offensive...

[Jonathan]

Well its accepted in most of the descriptions that

Most of which descriptions?

It can be problemmatic to base your theory from impressions stemming from type descriptions, but if you use them, which ones? Surely Filatova, Weisband, Strat...etc, don't give the impression of ILI as being necessarily particularly decisive, relative to other types. Are you using Reinin's descriptions? Or MBTI descriptions with the J/P flip (i.e., counting MBTI INTJ descriptions as being ILI)? (I'm just guessing at where you're coming from.)

[Transigent]

ILIs are very organized, even by common socionics, the fact that an INTp is a perceiving type doesn't mean that they are supposed to be disorganized, that is a myth. INTps have a hard time understanding what it means to love. INTps do not know how to feel happy. ENTjs and INTps are the unhappy types. These two types have a need to be depression, its their functional need.

Balloney.

You are trying to make things that are not related to socionics fit into it.

Damn dude, you just got bitch slapped by UDP. You gonna take that shit bro?

Seriously, hitta, how many times did you flunk a grade? You are kinda dumb, and not in the F-type "act silly but smart in reality" dumb, but the real "I don't know I am dumb" dumb.

[Hitta]

" He does not understand very well feelings and attractions of other people; this is why he is careful in this field and is afraid of being funny." ~ENTj
" In spite of all his "negativism", he is really a very kindly person in nature."~INTp (example of +Fe agenda)
"It feels itself depressed, if to it is not turned attention, in no way they react to its proposals. In its poor mood it is not necessary to comfort or to cheer. It is better to leave in private with its thoughts and to manifest indirect sympathy."~Victor Gulenko on +Fi agenda
"Tracks state of affairs in it the region interesting and knows how with the benefit to use the accumulated information. It is oriented well in the changes on the market for goods and services. It starts card indexes, data bases, archives, collections." +Ti in 2 slot
"Is evaluated relation to itself according to the manifestations of emotions. Its stormy, obtrusive emotions irritate, they act depressingly. In the extreme situation or when it feels the hidden hostility, it is capable to openly appear its irritation, to flare up, to require in the sharp form. It is ironic. It can flash by apt and calculated shot. If it is bad on the soul, issues the poor mood in the form of black humor." Gulenko on PoLR
"Its emotional state depends on that how it includes those surrounding. It feels itself depressed, if to it is not turned attention, in no way they react to its proposals. In its poor mood it is not necessary to comfort or to cheer. It is better to leave in private with its thoughts and to manifest indirect sympathy. In the contact with the unknown it knows how to be polite, news itself [vospitanno] is intelligent. It possesses diplomatic features. It attempts to agree on interests of all parties. In order to tie more close relations, it [ostrit], plays, behaves sufficiently [raskovanno]. However, if partner does not react, he ceases attempts at the rapprochement." -Fi/+Fe agenda

[Hitta]

lmao. INTps never feel real love? Even if INTp was my conflictor I would disagree with that. It sounds quite offensive...

INTps do not understand love. So they will never know love. The dual between an INTp and ESFp are more about moods, not attraction.

[ScarlettLux]

lmao. INTps never feel real love? Even if INTp was my conflictor I would disagree with that. It sounds quite offensive...

INTps do not understand love. So they will never know love. The dual between an INTp and ESFp are more about moods, not attraction.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

[Hitta]

lmao. INTps never feel real love? Even if INTp was my conflictor I would disagree with that. It sounds quite offensive...

INTps do not understand love. So they will never know love. The dual between an INTp and ESFp are more about moods, not attraction.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

How can you possibly say that when you have no idea what it feels like to be an INTp?

[normal]

I don't believe that.
INTp are not machines. No human being have lack of emotion nor love

[Hitta]

I don't believe that.
INTp are not machines. No human being have lack of emotion nor love

INTps show love. They don't feel love.

[Phaedrus]

lmao. INTps never feel real love? Even if INTp was my conflictor I would disagree with that. It sounds quite offensive...

INTps do not understand love. So they will never know love. The dual between an INTp and ESFp are more about moods, not attraction.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

I don't think he is kidding. And there is some truth in what he says about INTps and love. Everyone can experience the phenomenon of "falling in love", but that is in essence a stress reaction where you get increased levels of endorphines, phenylethylamine, and cortisole. The phenomenon that sometimes comes after the falling in love phase is over after about 6 months or so, that is love, is something that INTps probably often have more difficulty understanding in the same way as other people do. But attraction is not necessarily linked to love. Everyone can of course feel attraction too.

INTps show love. They don't feel love.

The concept love is very obscure in itself, so how do we know that we understand it correctly (= experience it in the same way as others do)? At least that is a genuine problem for some INTps, and I'm not sure they know how to show love either.

All these problems are probably genetically linked to autism spectrum disorders somehow, and therefore also to the INTp type, since more INTps than what is to be expected by chance have Asperger's Syndrome or something similar to that. But the INTj type is also closer to Asperger than most other types, so the INTp is perhaps only a very clear example of a much wider phenomenon.

[FDG]

Phaedrus, get the fuck out of your basement and look at the married couples holding hands after 20 yers just like when they were teenagers, then come back crying

[Phaedrus]

Phaedrus, get the fuck out of your basement and look at the married couples holding hands after 20 yers just like when they were teenagers, then come back crying

Everything I said in my previous post is true, and I don't cry. Types that are weak in both and don't understand love in the same way as those who are strong in them.

For example, at one test occasion they scanned the brains of several married couples. And the result of one of those couples was especially interesting. The woman was very outgoing and social in an obvious way, and in the TV documentary I saw about this study she seemed to be most likely an dominant type. It was very clear anyway, that she was an F type, and that she was extraverted. Her husband was clearly introverted and a T type of some sort. Now, when they tested the the reactions of these two persons to various pictures that many people find have an emotional content (and maybe the test included other things than pictures too, I don't remember exactly) the part of the brain that has to do with empathy was strongly activated in the woman, and she was very surprised when she found out afterwards that in her husband's brain that area of the brain was not activated at all. He had no activity in that part of the brain, strongly indicating that he would get low scores on EQ tests.

[FDG]

Phaedrus, get the fuck out of your basement and look at the married couples holding hands after 20 yers just like when they were teenagers, then come back crying

Everything I said in my previous post is true

HELLO MAN? DO YOU SEE THOSE MARRIED COUPLES HOLDING HANDS JUST LIKE WHEN THEY WERE 15? NOW HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS RIGHT IF IT IS CONTRADICTED BY REALITY, SHOO! IDIOT!

[FDG]

ENTjs and INTps are the unhappy types. These two types have a need to be depressed, its their functional need.

[FDG]

Expression would be the +Fe aspect of it, which an ENTj would have a need to be very positive with people, laugh a lot, they should probably preach optimism, that doesn't mean they don't feel they have a need themselves to be depressed. ENTjs push people away, and technically in their own time, enjoy more of a lonely depressed life. INTps and ENTjs are basically the same type, just have their functions switched around.

Errr you are confusing being alone with being depressed i'm afraid? Its not like I'm depressed when I'm by myself

[Jonathan]

There is little question about Gamma NTs often having a weakness in terms of understanding the feelings and attractions of people. Hitta, I think your mistake here is assuming that they're "missing" the Fi and Fe IM elements. Also, mappings of concepts such as "love" with Socionics elements are also a little bit inexact. The correct statement would be that Gamma NTs may have less conscious awareness of matters involving connections between people and relationships.

The idea that ILI and LIE (or any mirror types) are "basically the same type" is another common misconception perpetuated on this forum. Sure, they're the same quadra, but they're different types. One is irrational, and the other is rational. The difference between the accepting and creative function is also quite significant; it's not just a matter of emphasis...there's a lot more to it. Depending perhaps on subtype and other factors, mirrors can look very similar, but they are quite different in many respects.

"Tracks state of affairs in it the region interesting and knows how with the benefit to use the accumulated information. It is oriented well in the changes on the market for goods and services. It starts card indexes, data bases, archives, collections." +Ti in 2 slot

I assume you're using this quote as your basis for the idea that ILIs are the "super-organized" types as compared to LIIs or others. I would recommend caution when picking specific statements from an array of type descriptions from various people; you could justify almost anything that way. In this case, if this is talking about ILI, it seems fairly accurate that ILIs might start collections and so forth. I think ILIs often do like to set up processes. But that doesn't say whether they're organized, strict, or whatever. Some are probably organized, but I think many ILIs struggle or have to work hard dealing with the physical aspect involved in the ongoing maintenance and upkeep of their environment.

The other part of the quote reflects a common Socionics bias that ILIs are always involved in business, or that that business administration is their most natural role. This is interesting to me, though, because it may reflect some divergence of opinion among practicing Socionists.

Anyhow, I'd be interested in where you got that quote. Obviously, it's related to your +/- thing. Is that from Gulenko? Do you have a link?

[BLauritson]

lmao. INTps never feel real love? Even if INTp was my conflictor I would disagree with that. It sounds quite offensive...

INTps do not understand love. So they will never know love. The dual between an INTp and ESFp are more about moods, not attraction.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

How can you possibly say that when you have no idea what it feels like to be an INTp?

Are YOU an INTp? Because my reaction matches ScarlettLux's reaction and I know beyond reasonable doubt that I'm INTp.

[Hitta]

There is little question about Gamma NTs often having a weakness in terms of understanding the feelings and attractions of people. Hitta, I think your mistake here is assuming that they're "missing" the Fi and Fe IM elements. Also, mappings of concepts such as "love" with Socionics elements are also a little bit inexact. The correct statement would be that Gamma NTs may have less conscious awareness of matters involving connections between people and relationships.

The idea that ILI and LIE (or any mirror types) are "basically the same type" is another common misconception perpetuated on this forum. Sure, they're the same quadra, but they're different types. One is irrational, and the other is rational. The difference between the accepting and creative function is also quite significant; it's not just a matter of emphasis...there's a lot more to it. Depending perhaps on subtype and other factors, mirrors can look very similar, but they are quite different in many respects.

"Tracks state of affairs in it the region interesting and knows how with the benefit to use the accumulated information. It is oriented well in the changes on the market for goods and services. It starts card indexes, data bases, archives, collections." +Ti in 2 slot

I assume you're using this quote as your basis for the idea that ILIs are the "super-organized" types as compared to LIIs or others. I would recommend caution when picking specific statements from an array of type descriptions from various people; you could justify almost anything that way. In this case, if this is talking about ILI, it seems fairly accurate that ILIs might start collections and so forth. I think ILIs often do like to set up processes. But that doesn't say whether they're organized, strict, or whatever. Some are probably organized, but I think many ILIs struggle or have to work hard dealing with the physical aspect involved in the ongoing maintenance and upkeep of their environment.

The other part of the quote reflects a common Socionics bias that ILIs are always involved in business, or that that business administration is their most natural role. This is interesting to me, though, because it may reflect some divergence of opinion among practicing Socionists.

Anyhow, I'd be interested in where you got that quote. Obviously, it's related to your +/- thing. Is that from Gulenko? Do you have a link?

Well the strengths and weaknesses of the INTp and ENTj will different in scale. Whats an agenda for one will be an agenda for the other, although it might not be as obvious. I wrote the descriptions based on the idea that the values on each side of model A were of symmetrical value, so the description should fit both ENTjs and INTps.

INTps have an extremely hard time understanding love, as do ENTjs as well. INTps have a functional need to push people away. Do to having +Fi in the PoLR, INTps do not understand happiness, sympathy(in the thought since), love. INTps and ESTps are probably the most unhappy types. Both do not know what it is to feel love. Both also have a need to distance themselves from people.

[Jonathan]

All these problems are probably genetically linked to autism spectrum disorders somehow, and therefore also to the INTp type, since more INTps than what is to be expected by chance have Asperger's Syndrome or something similar to that. But the INTj type is also closer to Asperger than most other types, so the INTp is perhaps only a very clear example of a much wider phenomenon.

I think though we have to distinguish somewhat between pathology and type. I agree that Asperger's Syndrome people would most likely end up being some sort of IxTx type, possibly primarily INTp though I don't know the data. It just makes sense because you're talking about a specific problem that would logically seem to cause weakness in Fi and Fe and generally tend towards introversion.

But in general, average people who are somewhat well-rounded and use all the functions will still have a type, which could be any one of the 16. And so I think that some of the extreme, black-and-white stuff being said on this thread wouldn't apply as much.

[Jonathan]

Well the strengths and weaknesses of the INTp and ENTj will different in scale. Whats an agenda for one will be an agenda for the other, although it might not be as obvious. I wrote the descriptions based on the idea that the values on each side of model A were of symmetrical value, so the description should fit both ENTjs and INTps.

But that quantitative methodology is precisely what's problemmatic. It's common on this forum, and perhaps in some thinking by Socionists as well. Basically, you can't define a type by just referring to quantities of strengths, weaknesses, and values. That's part of the equation, but there's more. You have to also look at how people use the individual functions in Model A. It's not just about quantities.

and ESTps are probably the most unhappy types. Both do not know what it is to feel love. Both also have a need to distance themselves from people.

Aha! You're including ESTps in this as well? Or is that a typo?

I'm still curious where you got the quote about "2nd slot Ti+" or whatever...

[Hitta]

Well the strengths and weaknesses of the INTp and ENTj will different in scale. Whats an agenda for one will be an agenda for the other, although it might not be as obvious. I wrote the descriptions based on the idea that the values on each side of model A were of symmetrical value, so the description should fit both ENTjs and INTps.

But that quantitative methodology is precisely what's problemmatic. It's common on this forum, and perhaps in some thinking by Socionists as well. Basically, you can't define a type by just referring to quantities of strengths, weaknesses, and values. That's part of the equation, but there's more. You have to also look at how people use the individual functions in Model A. It's not just about quantities.

and ESTps are probably the most unhappy types. Both do not know what it is to feel love. Both also have a need to distance themselves from people.

Aha! You're including ESTps in this as well? Or is that a typo?

I'm still curious where you got the quote about "2nd slot Ti+" or whatever...

Yup I am including ESTps in the picture. INTps and ESTps try to distant themselves from people. They want to be alone.

Heres the link: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...-gul-func.html

[Jonathan]

Heres the link:

Oh I see. I thought it was a quote from something related to the +/- thing, because you had written "+Ti in 2 slot." Apparently it was a typo, and you simply meant "Te in 2 slot."

[Hitta]

Heres the link:

Oh I see. I thought it was a quote from something related to the +/- thing, because you had written "+Ti in 2 slot." Apparently it was a typo, and you simply meant "Te in 2 slot."

nah i meant +Ti. It's technically +Ti -> -Te metabolism. To say that an INTp doesn't have an introverted thinking function is the same as saying that an INTp isn't capable of logical thought.

[Hitta]

If I had to describe the difference between +Ti and -Ti in one word for each, it'd be: holism(+Ti) v.s. reductionism(-Ti)

[marooned]

I'm sorry, but love is not type-specific. It is universal. Everyone feels love. I suppose one could argue that if something is wrong with one's neurology they can't love... but I would be skeptical even there. I think that love is the most powerful emotion, so powerful it is even more than an emotion... it seems to be present in all things... So I don't think I would pick out any type and say they can't love. I mean, honestly, we are all human beings here. I think that sometimes this typing thing might be taken too far... I see it as a model for understanding people not as an all-encompassing definition of people, or of types of people, or of humanity in general. Even if we can find truths about ourselves and others through seeing ourselves or others as particular types, we are certainly far more than simply a "type." Also simply because someone might not make an active demonstration of their feelings doesn't mean those feelings aren't there. Usually when I am distant it's because I feel vulnerable and sensitive to being hurt, or worse, misunderstood... not because I don't care or don't love. I do try to come up with elaborate explanations to hide my vulnerabilities from myself, but it usually comes down to an effort to "protect" myself. I reveal feelings to the extent that I'm confident someone else won't trample all over them, or generate countless assumptions about me from them that aren't true. And although I'm not sure, I am likely an ILI.