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Thread: Right and Wrong?

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    Default Right and Wrong?

    it came up in a post that Joy wrote that types have different ideas of what's right and wrong.

    I think there was a morality thread earlier, but i thought i would ask about some pet peeves or more specific examples that might be related to type.

    For example, I remember reading that one's role function is something you do not criticize in others nor like criticized in yourself. I see this affecting what people feel is "right" or "wrong" in the loose sense I'm wanting to talk about here.

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    I don't believe in "right" and "wrong," probably because of my lack of .
    , Se-sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzblut
    I don't believe in "right" and "wrong," probably because of my lack of .
    I don't believe in morality but I don't believe in the Christian concept of God either . . . so perhaps that goes hand in hand . . . oh, please, let's not let this turn into one of those threads.

    You could lead, Ms K, by giving your ideas and throughts. :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzblut
    I don't believe in "right" and "wrong," probably because of my lack of .
    Do you believe in effective and ineffective?
    Entp
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Herzblut
    I don't believe in "right" and "wrong," probably because of my lack of .
    Do you believe in effective and ineffective?
    It depends what I'm applying it to.
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    giving some examples for myself

    what I read about role function does seem to apply to me (its Fi if im INTj).

    I seem to be really adamant about people's feelings being private and their own. What's said about INTjs hating being emotionally manipulated is very correct for me, i HAVE been left cold by what seems to me as really transparent and tawdry attempts in a bad movie to move the viewer, for example. Emotional manipulation is something i think perhaps "shouldn't" be done-- this would correspond to thinking its "wrong" and it would be related to my type.

    hehe did i just describe Fe?

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    the truth is everyone believes in morality once they are negatively affected by other people's actions.

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    another one

    Fi has to do with aesthetic taste, comfort, beauty as well, right?

    I hate it when people criticize other people's self expression, and think those people can go piss off

    however i have made suggestions about what looks good and what doesn't. hehe

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    ugh someone needs a refresher course in functions and what they do

    anyway

    you get what im looking for anyway?

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    In my opinion, if something helps people more than it hurts people, it's right. If something hurts people more than it helps people, it's wrong. Generally.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    the way hurt and help are defined is entirely barbaric

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    God and morality are not linked at all. It is perfectly possible to be a quasi religious lunatic moralist anyway. Just look at our dear leftists who are supposedly secular... (Interpreted in a broad sense) I believe in right and wrong in the context of the workings of systems, a system might be a given culture, but the ultimate system is reality. The decisions based on these levels of systems will depend of the nature of the system. While a few ideas are eternal in my eyes, most *applications* are not, hence they can differ between cultures. Believing in "Good" and "evil" as absolute ideas is a sign of neurosis. Of course it is inevitable that some values must be upheld, but the interesting part of it is how and why they are upheld.

    Most of these supposed "free thinkers" and "non moralists" are exposed as soon as they have to act in reality as opposed to boast about their total independence from right and wrong. The easiest way is probably to ask about their thoughts about the Holocaust. Suddenly the supposed non moralists begin to speak of how evil it was by affirming an absolute moral standard... (I am not expressing an approval of this very event here, just proving a point)

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    but moral concepts are transferred by language. the language of morality originated with religion...

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    well, the upside to letting topics run wild is that people will let my more specific mistakes pass under the radar

    laissez faire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heimdallr
    Most of these supposed "free thinkers" and "non moralists" are exposed as soon as they have to act in reality as opposed to boast about their total independence from right and wrong. The easiest way is probably to ask about their thoughts about the Holocaust. Suddenly the supposed non moralists begin to speak of how evil it was by affirming an absolute moral standard... (I am not expressing an approval of this very event here, just proving a point)
    I'm a Jew, sweetiepie, and can trace my family members back to the Holocaust. All thoughout recorded history (and beyond) ethnic cleansing has existed. There are certain rules that exist for a peaceful society, but that depends on who's in charge of said society . . . there's a little thing called slavery that has existed since the dawn of man also. These concepts have nothing to do with right/wrong, good/bad or morals of any kind. I someone kills one of my family, I may be enraged enough to kill that person. Who was right and who was wrong? The law says both but in my mind it's tit for tat and you will pay for what you took from me. Morality has nothing to do with it. If I felt is was immoral to kill then I would rely on the law to handle things for me or mistakenly for God to pay them back someday. Their are consequences for actions . . . hence again, a peaceful society.

    And if not God then where do your Christian morals come from? (Not speaking to you directly.) There's a little saying . . . you all know I am big on qoutes! . . . that says something to the effect that there will always be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion!

    Now, getting back to Ms K's statement. I get totally pissed off at people who are led by emotional manipulations escpecially those who join cults, etc. I see these people as weak individuals that cannot stand on their own and therefore deserve to be manipulated. I may sound cruel but that is more than likely because I don't understand said people. Forgive. I was an abused child and have fought long and hard to overcome feelings of unworthiness . . . I'm still working on it. I'm sure that's why I get so pissed off when it comes to this sort of thing. So why then can't I be pissed of at the manipulators? I have a sister with mental problems that I believe arose from the same said situation. I detest her for being weak. I think I am just scared silly of being her.
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    I believe in the pragmatic sort of morals: x is the right thing to do if one desires y and x is the most efficient means of obtaining y.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    "Most of these supposed "free thinkers" and "non moralists" are exposed as soon as they have to act in reality as opposed to boast about their total independence from right and wrong. The easiest way is probably to ask about their thoughts about the Holocaust. Suddenly the supposed non moralists begin to speak of how evil it was by affirming an absolute moral standard... (I am not expressing an approval of this very event here, just proving a point)"

    People tend to forfeit their beliefs under situations involving intense societal pressure, which is sad really.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    It's called survival.

    I for one would never die for my beliefs. It makes no sense. Dying for your beliefs proves nothing. You're just a cold stiff in the ground. I would however run the risk of dying for freedom. Anyone who gave any part of themselves . . . time, their life, their sanity . . . on my behalf, on behalf of my children, on behalf of future generations in keeping my country breathing that sweet smell of freedom is a hero in my book. I am eternally grateful. That has nothing to do with morilty.

    Off on a tangent. Honestly (and I hate being honest), some of you have very strong opinions but you have no life experience to back them up. And even if you have been in the same situation twice, you come out of it with sometimes different opinions than you had from the first time around.
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    "what is x and why? why obtain it? what is you? why care?"

    X is the means of obtaining what you desire; y is that which you desire to obtain; the reason for obtaining is it that one is compelled to obtain it; one cares because one feels comepelled to care.

    I don't understand your fourth question.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    "It's called survival."

    This might be true if dogmatists still burned people at the stake for espousing beliefs opposed to their own.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Because it leads to that oh-so senseless infinite regression of thought?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    "don't they? if you are too different you will not get a job and not be able to connect. once that happens insanity is inevitable and then you are either forced to commit suicide (intellectual or actual) or go insane."

    I think survival is too strong a word to use for such situations.

    "close enough but you aren't feeling it"

    ::Shrug::
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "It's called survival."

    This might be true if dogmatists still burned people at the stake for espousing beliefs opposed to their own.
    Okay, you win a point. Got ya. I hold my own being a Wiccan in a Bible Belt society. I don't broadcast but just go about quietly while not sacrificing my opinions or beliefs or how I live my life. Which brings up another point . . . I can't stand people who have to broadcast to society their personal beliefs such as being gay or their religions beliefs on their clohting or body. I should only see what kind of person you are in how you act towards others. Some people are only different for the sake of being different.
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    "Some people are only different for the sake of being different."

    Which has the same root as the desire they rebel against, "the desire to conform", societal pressure, or more specifically, the desire to find one's place in a society.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    "Some people are only different for the sake of being different."

    Which has the same root as the desire they rebel against, "the desire to conform", societal pressure, or more specifically, the desire to find one's place in a society.


    Now THAT's really sad.

    Why is it always the three of us? I suggest I duck out of here and let things get back to the original question. That is if you two don't piss me off anymore.

    LOL!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    "Some people are only different for the sake of being different."

    Which has the same root as the desire they rebel against, "the desire to conform", societal pressure, or more specifically, the desire to find one's place in a society.


    Now THAT's really sad.
    Why is it sad? It just is.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    I just ran across this quote that made me laugh my head off . . . don't you wish.

    I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    I just ran across this quote that made me laugh my head off . . . don't you wish.

    I am grateful that I am not as judgmental as all those censorious, self-righteous people around me.
    eh, what?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    It's a joke. The quoter is complaining about judgmental people when he is being just as judgmental.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    It's a joke. The quoter is complaining about judgmental people when he is being just as judgmental.
    I was being serious.

    *laughs gleefully*
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    It's a joke. The quoter is complaining about judgmental people when he is being just as judgmental.
    I was being serious.

    *laughs gleefully*
    yeah thats the point of arguing, at least why i do it a lot

    its to say hey, did you know you're doing the thing that you are against? or, do you know the implications of what you're saying?

    I think that if you would make generalizations about anything regulating behavior that is "moral". But im not talking about morality , though that was maybe naive to think it would stay that way. And if you'd die for anything certainly that is regulating one's behavior?

    Maybe I am not speaking for the majority, but i think if you feel strongly about something, it's moral. i dont understand how it could have nothing to do with morality. If someone says that, are they saying that they have random bursts of feeling strongly about a particular thing? If its about a particular thing, doesnt seem so random then, does it? what if someone said "my biology causes me to react strongly everytime i see injustice" seems weird doesn't it, that it would regulate something so seemingly social? who says morality isn't biological?

    eh anyway i was talking about pet peeves that seem particularly affected by type.

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