Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Elements

  1. #1
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Elements

    Ti/Fe values its own system of logic and looks to external sources for ethical information.
    Te/Fi values its own system of ethics and looks to external sources for logical information.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  2. #2
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Of course, it's important to note that "ethical" and "logical" are Socionics terms and the English meanings of these words should not be considered.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  3. #3
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Introverted functions don't "look inward" for information. They still take information from the external world; if they didn't, they'd never change. The difference is that they evaluate it according to "systems," ie, they pass a subjective judgment on it, interpret it in the context of a system.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  4. #4
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Introverted functions don't "look inward" for information.
    I wasn't implying that they do.

    They still take information from the external world; if they didn't, they'd never change.
    My understanding is that other functions do that.

    The difference is that they evaluate it according to "systems," ie, they pass a subjective judgment on it, interpret it in the context of a system.
    That's what I was getting at with "values its own system".
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  5. #5
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, the introverted functions themselves don't "take" input, but they require it, obviously.

    What do you mean by "its system?" I don't think there's any "ownership" inherent in a system created using an introverted function; anyone can analyze and manipulate it.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  6. #6
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Well, the introverted functions themselves don't "take" input, but they require it, obviously.

    What do you mean by "its system?" I don't think there's any "ownership" inherent in a system created using an introverted function; anyone can analyze and manipulate it.
    If a tree falls in a forrest and there's no one around to hear it, does it still make a sound?


    While it's true that Ti and Fi systems exist in and of themselves, people still have their own overall Fi and Ti systems, and no two people have identical Ti or Fi systems.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  7. #7
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, but that kind of thing is completely irrelevant to Socionics functional theory...how people formulate their beliefs is, as I said, not necessarily affected by functional preference. The way they analyze information, which is what Socionics is about, is.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  8. #8
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    If a tree falls in a forrest and there's no one around to hear it, does it still make a sound?
    ....huh?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  9. #9
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Ti/Fe values its own system of logic and looks to external sources for ethical information.
    Te/Fi values its own system of ethics and looks to external sources for logical information.
    At its most general, this would appear to be a valid assumption, or a good way to introduce these concepts on a basic level to people new to Socionics.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    118
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Ti/Fe values its own system of logic and looks to external sources for ethical information.
    Te/Fi values its own system of ethics and looks to external sources for logical information.
    At its most general, this would appear to be a valid assumption, or a good way to introduce these concepts on a basic level to people new to Socionics.
    I think that that would be a terrible way to introduce new people to it. It doesn't actually explain anything, so if somebody would add an explanation to it, then it'll become useful.

  11. #11
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePeddler
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Ti/Fe values its own system of logic and looks to external sources for ethical information.
    Te/Fi values its own system of ethics and looks to external sources for logical information.
    At its most general, this would appear to be a valid assumption, or a good way to introduce these concepts on a basic level to people new to Socionics.
    I think that that would be a terrible way to introduce new people to it. It doesn't actually explain anything, so if somebody would add an explanation to it, then it'll become useful.
    It's an introductory sentence that at its base does in fact give an overall idea of some basic difference between the two, and it leaves itself open to be expanded upon in greater detail or generalized analysis.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  12. #12
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePeddler
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Ti/Fe values its own system of logic and looks to external sources for ethical information.
    Te/Fi values its own system of ethics and looks to external sources for logical information.
    At its most general, this would appear to be a valid assumption, or a good way to introduce these concepts on a basic level to people new to Socionics.
    I think that that would be a terrible way to introduce new people to it. It doesn't actually explain anything, so if somebody would add an explanation to it, then it'll become useful.

    Te is pretty much about what works... it doesn't intrinsically trust any information, because that information may prove to be untrue or misleading or not useful down the road. It just takes whatever information is currently available and makes sense out of things based on that, and it does this for the sole purpose of being as effective and efficient as possible.

    Ti is about "logical" systems and organizational relationships. It has a more intrinsic trust in the information that fits into a system. That information needs to be well secured, trustworthy, and stable because other information is built into the system around it. Making changes, such as disregarding old information, takes more than it would for a Te type because parts of the system may have to be removed or reorganized to work without that information.

    Fe is about emotional expression and interaction. Not all Fe types appear emotionally expressive, but they're still aware of the emotional climate and people's expressions of their internal dynamics.

    Fi is about subjective morals and ethical relationships. It is similar to Ti in that people and moral beliefs are accepted more slowly or somewhat cautiously. Fi types trust their own morals, likes/dislikes, and understanding of their close relationships more than they would external sources of "ethical" information.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  13. #13
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Te is pretty much about what works... it doesn't intrinsically trust any information, because that information may prove to be untrue or misleading or not useful down the road. It just takes whatever information is currently available and makes sense out of things based on that, and it does this for the sole purpose of being as effective and efficient as possible.

    Ti is about "logical" systems and organizational relationships. It has a more intrinsic trust in the information that fits into a system. That information needs to be well secured, trustworthy, and stable because other information is built into the system around it. Making changes, such as disregarding old information, takes more than it would for a Te type because parts of the system may have to be removed or reorganized to work without that information.

    Fe is about emotional expression and interaction. Not all Fe types appear emotionally expressive, but they're still aware of the emotional climate and people's expressions of their internal dynamics.

    Fi is about subjective morals and ethical relationships. It is similar to Ti in that people and moral beliefs are accepted more slowly or somewhat cautiously. Fi types trust their own morals, likes/dislikes, and understanding of their close relationships more than they would external sources of "ethical" information.
    Not exactly. Ti is about logical (I don't know why you needed to put logical in quotations, as it kind of implies that is false logic) systems and organizational relationships. But it is not that it trusts the information, but quite the contrary. It does not trust the information, which is why -types prefer to look at just the of a system as the could always potentially change and be null at a later date. But a does believe that if their is right and strong, then the should conform to the system of , but that does not mean that they trust that the will fit into the system. But it does take longer for dominant types to exchange their , but that does not necessarily mean that they are somehow always wrong or several updates behind on their -drives.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  14. #14
    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,008
    Mentioned
    152 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Introverted functions don't "look inward" for information. They still take information from the external world; if they didn't, they'd never change. The difference is that they evaluate it according to "systems," ie, they pass a subjective judgment on it, interpret it in the context of a system.
    Information metabolism states that an extroverted function is that of external collection and introverted functions are functions of subjective analysis.

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA.
    TIM
    INTj
    Posts
    4,497
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Te is pretty much about what works... it doesn't intrinsically trust any information, because that information may prove to be untrue or misleading or not useful down the road. It just takes whatever information is currently available and makes sense out of things based on that, and it does this for the sole purpose of being as effective and efficient as possible.

    Ti is about "logical" systems and organizational relationships. It has a more intrinsic trust in the information that fits into a system. That information needs to be well secured, trustworthy, and stable because other information is built into the system around it. Making changes, such as disregarding old information, takes more than it would for a Te type because parts of the system may have to be removed or reorganized to work without that information.

    Fe is about emotional expression and interaction. Not all Fe types appear emotionally expressive, but they're still aware of the emotional climate and people's expressions of their internal dynamics.

    Fi is about subjective morals and ethical relationships. It is similar to Ti in that people and moral beliefs are accepted more slowly or somewhat cautiously. Fi types trust their own morals, likes/dislikes, and understanding of their close relationships more than they would external sources of "ethical" information.
    Not exactly. Ti is about logical (I don't know why you needed to put logical in quotations, as it kind of implies that is false logic) systems and organizational relationships. But it is not that it trusts the information, but quite the contrary. It does not trust the information, which is why -types prefer to look at just the of a system as the could always potentially change and be null at a later date. But a does believe that if their is right and strong, then the should conform to the system of , but that does not mean that they trust that the will fit into the system. But it does take longer for dominant types to exchange their , but that does not necessarily mean that they are somehow always wrong or several updates behind on their -drives.
    i think i could agree with this, but going past the function to say it doesn't trust something is too far I think. They are different processes and not doing one or the other doesn't imply a distrust of the other. A Ti person doesn't distrust certain Te information and trust other Te information because it fits in with his system; a Ti person trusts his Ti and a logical structure.

  16. #16
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: extremely simplified explanations of rational IM Element

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    i think i could agree with this, but going past the function to say it doesn't trust something is too far I think. They are different processes and not doing one or the other doesn't imply a distrust of the other. A Ti person doesn't distrust certain Te information and trust other Te information because it fits in with his system; a Ti person trusts his Ti and a logical structure.
    But there is a certain level of distrust in which one element is constantly questioning how the conclusion of the other was derived.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  17. #17
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's not a matter of blind trust. It's about seeing something as being more reliable than other things. That doesn't mean people don't need to test it's information or that they won't change it if they have reason to.

    And the reason logic was in quotations is because I was talking about Socionics logic, as in logic vs. ethics, which is something different from the English definition of the word.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  18. #18
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And the reason logic was in quotations is because I was talking about Socionics logic, as in logic vs. ethics, which is something different from the English definition of the word.
    And I would have understood it to mean as such without the quotation marks.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  19. #19
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And the reason logic was in quotations is because I was talking about Socionics logic, as in logic vs. ethics, which is something different from the English definition of the word.
    And I would have understood it to mean as such without the quotation marks.
    Okay, I'll keep that in mind if I send you a PM.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  20. #20
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,406
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And the reason logic was in quotations is because I was talking about Socionics logic, as in logic vs. ethics, which is something different from the English definition of the word.
    And I would have understood it to mean as such without the quotation marks.
    Okay, I'll keep that in mind if I send you a PM.
    No worries. I presumed and you clarified my presumption.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •