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Thread: Your experiences with ESTjs

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    Default Your experiences with ESTjs

    Come on and share your experiences with ESTj so far.

    I realize that some ESTjs appear gentlemanly and tend to be (overly) polite and courteous at times (especially infront of strangers), to the extent that they seem rather fake. Is it due to as their role function? I remember bumping into an ESTj schoolmate (now a medical student) in the hospital and I'm very surprised how gentlemanly he was. He would open doors for ladies, wait for everyone to get into the elevator before finally getting in, always have the same big (unnatural) grin, seems to be good at everything he does etc. However, when I read his blog, his entries tend to be rather negative (even though he supposedly emphasize that he is a very optimistic person), serious and intense (to the point that it made my ISFj friend dizzy). I think I'm probably the only one who enjoys reading his blog because he is so honest. The main theme of his blog is about him using his abilities and talents to contribute to his religion and how he related it with real life experiences. Moreover, he mentioned about his need to be perfect in others' eyes and how jealous he would become when someone performed better than him in that area of expertise.

    Are these typical characteristics of ESTjs, especially the last point I have mentioned?

    Just thought I need to understand ESTjs better. :wink:

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    Default Re: Oh that ESTj!

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    I realize that some ESTjs appear gentlemanly and tend to be (overly) polite and courteous at times (especially infront of strangers), to the extent that they seem rather fake. Is it due to as their role function?
    Yes, or emotion-creating, which in this case amounts to the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    However, when I read his blog, his entries tend to be rather negative (even though he supposedly emphasize that he is a very optimistic person),
    ESTjs are Negativists, but it depends on what you're talking about. They can be very optimistic in terms of knowing they can deal with any problem they face.

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    serious and intense (to the point that it made my ISFj friend dizzy).
    Well what do you mean with "intense"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    I think I'm probably the only one who enjoys reading his blog because he is so honest. The main theme of his blog is about him using his abilities and talents to contribute to his religion and how he related it with real life experiences. Moreover, he mentioned about his need to be perfect in others' eyes and how jealous he would become when someone performed better than him in that area of expertise.
    Yeah that is the hidden agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Are these typical characteristics of ESTjs, especially the last point I have mentioned?
    I think so, but elaboration on the "negative" and "intense" things would be useful.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I know an ESTj, he is very aware of status and hierarchy, he hangs around with people that he sees are important, for example he always makes really good friends with his bosses and when he was at university he used to talk to and get to know the lecturers very will. He looks down at people because of this sometimes. He is a very good moralistic person, and has a lot of devotion and motivation to accomplish whatever it may be, his studies, a sport or in his job. Only problem i've had with him is that he tends to only listen to people of higher status or official sources, reguarding information about stuff or opinions etc and everyone else is cut off quickly should they try to say anything that goes against eg the newspaper says.
    Friendly ISTp
    Interested in everything, yes, EVERYTHING
    Flower's motto: Life's too short even to do the things you want to, let alone the things you dont!!

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    That sounds more like an ISTj than ESTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Yes. That sounds more ISTj. The ESTjs I know aren't like that.
    INTp
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    Yeah, it does a bit, they are very similar in many ways tho arent they? He is defo ESTj, and these are the things that stand out about him for me.
    Friendly ISTp
    Interested in everything, yes, EVERYTHING
    Flower's motto: Life's too short even to do the things you want to, let alone the things you dont!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by flower
    Yeah, it does a bit, they are very similar in many ways tho arent they? He is defo ESTj, and these are the things that stand out about him for me.
    Yeah i think its possible hes an ESTj i dont see why not. My ESTj friend is like that he will only trust journal articles etc and really reliable sources. I dont think he would classify the newspaper as such though.

    All the ESTj's guys i know are high flyers. Med student, Network Engineer, Owner of a business that he started when he was 16(with like 15 employees). The women ive met were two working same call centre as i did and one was a project manager at the organization and quite high up.

    All of the high flyers are to some degree arrogant. The two women were lovely people no arrogance at all. The guy who owns his own business enjoys talking to me, but im not worth his time. He is very driven and whenever we talk its brief. He likes to show off his his money, travel, and pdas and iphones etc that hes constantly buying. The project manager was similar. She would take me and my ISTp friend out to dinner and pay for it on the company card. She definately liked to talk about how well she had done, how valuable she was and is very proud of her achievements.

    The other two guys i get on with a lot better. The med student has been my friend since i was 5 years old. He has that serious way of talking and likes to have very direct conversations. When im in a funny mood he will go along with it a little though. He keeps a very tight schedule and works very hard. He knows a lot of people but i still feel very high up in his friends list. His emails he has been sending from overseas are pretty factual and quite boring. Id say im one of the only people that enjoys reading them lol. I kind of feel like i have to be on my metal with him. If i do something a little stupid hes bound to notice. I enjoy his knowledge though, he always has something to talk about which is excellent.

    All in all i can see why they are attractive people. They dont whinge, very direct, confident and capable.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    This thread makes me smile
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Hmm? Since when were you ESTj?
    I guess it makes a kind of sense though. Or not. Whatevers.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Default Re: Oh that ESTj!

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    However, when I read his blog, his entries tend to be rather negative (even though he supposedly emphasize that he is a very optimistic person),
    ESTjs are Negativists, but it depends on what you're talking about. They can be very optimistic in terms of knowing they can deal with any problem they face.

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    serious and intense (to the point that it made my ISFj friend dizzy).
    Well what do you mean with "intense"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Are these typical characteristics of ESTjs, especially the last point I have mentioned?
    I think so, but elaboration on the "negative" and "intense" things would be useful.
    My ISFj friend felt that his blog entries were kind of detail-oriented, complex, introspective and too serious, giving too much thought to simple things in life. Moreover, he is very opinionated and seems to be rather uncompromising at times.

    Examples of his entries:

    [spoil:88aef10409]
    Just came back from a long long run with my brother... phew! Ran to [name of road] and back. Haven't run so far in ages; I'm thankful I was able to reach home!

    As I was plodding along, lungs heaving and legs aching, I was thinking to myself, this is so much like life isn't it. We are all runners in this long race that God has given us. At time we are deeply inspired from within and put on a powerful energetic burst. At other times we stop for a long well-deserved break to catch our breath and recuperate. At times people around us smile at us, encourage us or give us a drink, and we find new strength to press on. At times our energy has been nearly sapped dry and the most we can do is just force our screaming legs to push on, the only thing on our minds the next rest point or next drink. At some times we seem to be on cruise control, just gliding along and enjoying the beautiful scenery and fresh air around us. And at some times we catch a checkpoint in sight and with a sudden rush of adrenaline coursing through our veins we burst forward, the fatigue and agony forgotten.

    On this race of life God does not expect us to be supermen, for he did not create us so. He does not expect us to run every bit of the race at top speed with the wind blowing through our hair and our legs vigorously pumping away. He understands that as mere weak humans we go through seasons in life, seasons like those I have described above. Some seasons we are strong, some seasons we are weak. Some seasons we are inspired and motivates, other seasons we are tired and jaded. But through it all God only expects one thing of us-

    "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." Heb 12:1-2

    No matter what the season, all God wants us to do is to run with endurance, not giving up, never looking back, but just pressing on. He is the author and finisher of our faith; as long as we just hang in there and never give up, He will carry us through and bring us over the finishing. Wherever you are on the race of life, press on. The finishing line may be far away, but you WILL be there someday.
    [/spoil:88aef10409]

    [spoil:88aef10409]
    Have you ever come to the point where you feel that things of life are so meaningless and pointless? That they seem to be bringing you nowhere except in a vicious circle that never ends? The very fact that you feel this in your heart means that deep inside your heart, you are longing for something more. Deep inside your heart there is the sense that you were made for a higher purpose, a higher calling. That my dear friends, is the Holy Spirit speaking to you... do not ignore it!

    Don't let it go! It is crucial that at this point, you begin to think and pray and reflect on what is that purpose. And it is no secret. It is God's purpose. God made you and put you here on this earth for a purpose. And if you feel restless and if you feel like everything in life is so meaningless, it is because you have yet to discover that beautiful purpose. God has brought you to this point where you are realising how futile and meaningless the things of this world are. Now it is time for you to take the next step that He wants you to take- to turn your mind and heart away from these things, and seek His purpose for your lives. Don't delay!!

    You may think, but I'm too busy, there are so many things in my life to be taken care of! My studies, my friends, my ECAs, my hobbies, my partying, my...... Allow me to share something from a book that I"m reading entitled The Purpose-Driven Life (and I would encourage you to find this book and read it)-

    "Living the rest of your life for God will require a change in your priorities, your schedule, your relationships, and everything else. It will sometimes mean choosing a difficult path instead of an easy one. Even Jesus struggled with this. Knowing he was about to be crucified, he cried out, 'My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. Father, glorify Thy name.' "

    In reading this passage (John 12:23-28- go read it for yourself), do you see Jesus' sense of purpose and His determination to fulfill it at all costs? I think it is absolutely beautiful! He is the supreme example of what it means to live for God's purpose. Yes, you may think you are too busy, too bogged down, but if you want to live for Him, things must change! There is no two ways about it... things must change! And that is exactly what God wants to do- He wants to change and transform your life. If you will let Him, He will help you to make Him the centre, and teach you to order all the other things in your life around Him. He will be your supreme purpose. And suddenly when all the other things become part of that, they don't seem so meaningless anymore. In fact they become very meaningful. Doesn't that sound good to you? Reach out and take it!

    You may ask, so where do I start? How do I begin? Well even before we do anything on the outside, it begins with the heart. We have to come to the point where on the inside, in our heart of hearts, we say to the Lord, ' Father, I want to turn away from all the earthly things that have occupied my life and discover Your purpose for me, at all costs." Sound easy? But be honest and ask yourself, have I really come to this point? Am I really willing to give up all these earthly things to follow God? We have to be honest with ourselves. And if the answer is no, then we have no excuse. It is our fault that we are not discovering His purpose, not His fault.
    I pray that you will say that prayer with me. Don't just chuck this away into the corner of your mind, along with the hundred and one things you have to do. Because if you do that, then your life will simply continue in that vicious cycle and ultimately not go anywhere. Things will never change. You must take that step of faith eventually. And I am confident that once you have said that prayer with all your heart, God will show you the way. I guarantee it.

    Our Lord Jesus did it for you; will you do it for Him?
    [/spoil:88aef10409]

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    His opinions of the roles of men and women:
    [spoil:c6686589b5]
    Created to be Different?

    We live in an era where the traditional roles of men and women have become increasingly confused. In the workplace, women are taking up traditionally male-dominated jobs and excelling at them. We have seen the emergence of the strong-willed, independent career woman, able to rise up the corporate ladder as quickly as her male counterparts. More and more women are choosing their careers over their families, electing to marry later, have children later, or remain single. Women have replaced the men as the chief breadwinners in some families. Women all over the world, revelling in their freedom from years of oppression in society, are now celebrating the strength of the female gender, believing that whatever men can do, women can do too. And more than that, women’s rights activists push for equal rights for women in the workplace, believing that whatever man can do, women should be allowed to do too.

    This is a very sensitive topic that tends to provoke very strong reactions from either sex. The purpose of this article is to return to a biblical point of view- what does the Bible say about the role of men and women in life? Now having said that, many women fear what the Bible has to say because it is traditionally believed to portray women as the inferior sex, with less rights and smaller roles. But is that really what the Bible has to say? Let’s find out…

    We begin our search at Creation. The first account of the creation of man and woman is as follows-

    “Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Genesis 1:26-28

    What is significant here is that the first known command to work in the Bible was given not just to man, but to man and woman. It was a joint task that they had. Now we move to the second account-

    “Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." And the Lord God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.” Genesis 2:15-22

    Now what exactly does the word “helper”, or “help-meet” in the King James Version, mean? In Hebrew the word used is “ezer kenegdo”, a word that is in the worlds of Hebrew scholar Robert Altar, “notoriously difficult to translate”. Quoting from the book Captivating by John and Stasi Eldredge,

    “The word “ezer” is used only twenty other places in the entire Old Testament, and in every instance the person being described is God Himself, when you need him to come through for you desperately…Most of the contexts are life and death, by the way, and God is your only hope. Your ezer. If he is not there beside you… you are dead. A better translation therefore of ezer would be “lifesaver”. Kenegdo means alongside, or opposite to, a counterpart.”

    So from the first account we know that work was given to both man and woman, a joint task. From the second account we know that the first command was given to man, and then woman was created as an indispensable counterpart to man, one who would be there in his most desperate need, when his life itself was at risk, his only hope, his only support. Now let’s move on.

    After the Fall, God cursed the human race. It is important to note that he cursed man and woman differently-

    “To the woman He said:
    "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
    In pain you shall bring forth children;
    Your desire shall be for your husband,
    And he shall rule over you."

    Then to Adam He said,
    "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, "You shall not eat of it':
    "Cursed is the ground for your sake;
    In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life.
    Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
    And you shall eat the herb of the field.
    In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread,
    Till you return to the ground,
    For out of it you were taken;
    For dust you are, and to dust you shall return”.

    Genesis 3:16-19

    It is fascinating to see the nature of the curses- they were not just any other curses, but specifically tailored to the roles that God had given Man and Woman at Creation. Woman was cursed in her role of childbearing, that it would ever forth be painful; and more importantly, in her role as Man’s ezer-kenegdo. A friend of mine pointed out to me that the Hebrew word translated as “desire” in this passage is the same one used in Genesis 4:7, where God speaks to the angry Cain- “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” The kind of desire it speaks of here is a desire to overwhelm, a desire to control, a desire to be master of and rule over. Woman was created to be Man’s counterpart, who would come to his rescue in his darkest hour of need; instead, she becomes his rival, wanting to control and rule over him.

    Similarly, Man was cursed in the role that was given to him primarily, and that is to “tend and keep” the Garden. Ever forth in his work of tending to nature and eating of its fruit, he would face extreme difficulty.

    So from the account of Creation we know that Man and Woman were given distinct and different roles. Man, to work the land and harvest its fruit; Woman, to be his counterpart, companion and support in the work, and to bear his children. From the Fall onwards both of them would face extreme difficulty in fulfilling their God-given roles, which is indeed what we see today, and will talk about later.

    We move forward now to the New Testament, to Paul’s exhortations to the Ephesians.

    “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be their own husbands in everything.

    Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.”
    Ephesians 5:22-29

    Again here we see different roles for Man and Woman. But here the divine mystery deepens- for the first time in the Bible we see that the relationship between Man and Woman is but a foreshadowing, like the sacrifical lamb of the Old Testament, of something much greater to come- the relationship between Christ Himself and the Church. In Biblical times women had a much smaller role in the worship of God than men. They were not allowed to enter the Temple, they were not allowed to speak in the synagogues, they had to wear head coverings, and so forth. It was the men who took the lead. And here we begin to understand why- women were meant to be to men as the Church is to be to Christ- subject and submissive. To respect Christ’s words and commands, to listen and obey, to let Him take the lead.

    At the same time, Man too has a specific role, to be to his wife as Christ is to the Church. Christ “loved the church and gave Himself for her”, even His very life; in times of danger, men are called upon by God to be ready to give their very own lives to protect and save their wives. Christ sanctifies and cleanses the Church, and presents her as “glorious”, “holy and without blemish.” What a calling! In those times was given to men the task of leading the women in religious affairs, and along with that also the responsibility of sanctifying them and helping them to grow in Christ such that they may be “holy and without blemish”. Which also means that they themselves too must be likewise! That is the complete picture. Just as Christ our Lord “nourishes and cherishes” the Church, so men too are called to nourish and cherish their wives, never to take them for granted, but to love them as they love themselves.

    From the Old to the New Testament, can you now see how the different roles that God gave to Men and Woman were meant to compliment each other so perfectly? Because the relationship between Man and Woman is but a foreshadowing of the perfect relationship between the Church and Christ, the Bride and the Bridegroom spoken of in Revelation? But sadly we still live in a fallen world; the echoes of Eden are still heard today. Men and women are struggling to fulfil the roles that God gave them, and are straying from them.

    Mention the words “submit to your husband” and many women will flare up and get upset; “why should I have to submit? Do I have less rights as a woman? Was I created inferior to, weaker than man?” Women, instead of trying to support their husbands and be there in their time of need, sometimes end up competing with them, trying to outdo them. Many women have rejected their role as childbearers, choosing to focus on their careers. They believe that they deserve more than to just submit.

    Man is not doing much better. The curse of the Fall still holds true today- man faces a hard time bringing money home to support their families, in a competitive and unforgiving society and workplace- the modern parallel of Adam's task of working the land. They toil and sweat long hours at jobs that leave them physically and often emotionally drained, with little time and energy for anything else.

    And more importantly, instead of loving and cherishing and nourishing their wives, both in the physical and the emotional and spiritual, we see men abandoning them and leaving them to suffer. Instead of giving all that they have to protect and save their wives they often shun away when it comes to the crunch, leaving women lonely and torn. Instead of sanctifying their wives and helping them to grow in Christ, men themselves stray from Christ and commit adultery, wife abuse, and the like. And the women are left to fend for themselves. Some remain wounded and broken; some, in an effort to erase their past, try to be strong to face the world on their own, without men. But deep inside, many of them still tenderly nurse the wounds that never seem to heal.

    And we see the results in our very own society. On the outside we are a cohesive, prosperous nation. But just dig a little deeper and you will find that it is really a mess. Broken marriages, broken relationships, that crave for the strength, protection and faithfulness and the submission and support that men and women were made to offer to one another respectively. Children grow up secretly suffering from the lack of a godly father who not just loves and sanctifies the mother but also “brings them (the children) up in the training and admonition of the Lord.” (Eph. 6:4) They suffer from the loving touch that only a mother can offer; so many mothers are so caught up in their work that, like their husbands, they hardly have any time to spend with their children. And so the children are also left alone, left to face this cruel and dangerous world without much guidance and many of them end up lost and confused. The family unit is disintegrating, because men and women are not fulfilling their God-given roles.

    To both men and women I would say this- your roles have been given to you by God; do not reject them. He who gave them to you has also made and equipped you to carry out that role powerfully.

    To the women I would say this- do not give in to the ancient lie of Satan, that just because you have been given a different roles from men, the chief of them being to submit, does not mean that you are any lesser than man, that you are not equal with him in the eyes of God. In the Garden of Eden Satan lied to Eve, “You will not surely die.” But in doing so he was also tempting Eve to disobey the role given to her- to submit, to obey, not to take things into her own hands. “For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man…nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.” 1 Cor.11: 8-9,11. I believe with all my heart that the roles given to women are extremely noble and powerful ones. Remember that in Jesus’ earthly ministry, it was women who walked with him, supported him and took care of him as he walked from place to place, city to city. And it was to women that Jesus first appeared when He rose from the dead. Women are extremely precious, and indispensable in God’s plans. It takes great strength, courage and humility to fulfil your roles, especially in today’s society. And there is great healing and joy to be found when you do. I am not saying that every woman should leave her job and stay at home and look after the family. That is an unhealthy stereotype that we would do well to dismiss. Pray and seek the Lord, and discover between you and Him, how you can fulfil your roles in your own life in your own special way, with what God has given you. And you are certainly not lesser than man; “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal 3:28. Does God love women less than man? Certainly not!

    To the man I would say this- you have a very high calling, an immense responsibility, to be to your wife as Christ is to the Church. Do not be passive, do not neglect that role; remember that when Satan tempted Eve and Eve eventually gave in and took the fruit, Adam was standing right beside her. And he did nothing. “She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.” Genesis 3:6. He did nothing to sanctify her with the truth of God, to remind her of what was right, and he himself did what was wrong. People think that in today’s modern society, men are become weaker and being challenged by women. I say to you, embrace the strength that God has given you and fulfil your role. The world- and women- are desperately in need of such men, who will be strong for them, who they can depend on and trust, who themselves being “holy and without blemish” will help them to grow likewise, who will be worthy of respect and submission. Men who will be living examples of what Christ is to the Church and hence shine His light forth.

    And to both men and women I say finally- you were created to be different, you were given different roles. And it is when you both faithfully carry out those roles, with the help and grace of God, that we will see the touch of God on earth. “If the foot should say, ‘Because I am not of the hand, I am not of the body,’ is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.” 1 Cor 12:15-18. I believe with all my heart that the roles are not there to restrict us; we were made and wired for those roles. And in fulfilling them, we will find the glorious freedom and joy of becoming who God made and always intended us to be.
    [/spoil:c6686589b5]

    His stand seems to be pro-Caregiver-Infantile style.

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    Do they seem to be written by an ESTj? I have always enjoyed reading blogs of similar nature.

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    I don't know many ESTjs, but I really liked reading those blog entries. I get it, I feel like I get him. Thanks for sharing them eunice. Man, I really got to find me one of those ESTjs.


    his blog entries were kind of detail-oriented, complex, introspective and too serious, giving too much thought to simple things in life


    Yeah, I gotta find me one of these. You know what, actually I did meet an ESTJ recently, and these entries remind me of the conversations he and I had. A great experience actually. It was just comfortable talking to him. I rarely feel so comfortable with someone I've just met. I'm very introverted and prefer quiet, and I was in a car with him and his family for 11 hours! I have never talked for so long in my life. And when the conversations would be over, we'd just sit and think, and maybe put some music on. It was all good.

    It was okay for me to be serious. I'm so serious sometimes, really. In fact, I rather hate meaningless topics and frivolous conversations. There is something deeper to be found in all of the "simple things", and for me they're not worth dealing with otherwise. It was nice to be around another Delta, that's all. I've felt similarly comfortable around an ENFP I met recently, although not quite as comfortable, because we both tried too hard to be solicitous of the other's feelings.
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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Yeesh, his religious babbling makes me head hurt.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Yeesh, his religious babbling makes me head hurt.
    I know. When he started talking about Genesis i had to stop. Its amazing to me that some ESTj's can be so devout and some like my friend are atheist to the bone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Yeesh, his religious babbling makes me head hurt.
    I don't think been religious is type-related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle
    I don't know many ESTjs, but I really liked reading those blog entries. I get it, I feel like I get him. Thanks for sharing them eunice. Man, I really got to find me one of those ESTjs.


    his blog entries were kind of detail-oriented, complex, introspective and too serious, giving too much thought to simple things in life


    Yeah, I gotta find me one of these. You know what, actually I did meet an ESTJ recently, and these entries remind me of the conversations he and I had. A great experience actually. It was just comfortable talking to him. I rarely feel so comfortable with someone I've just met. I'm very introverted and prefer quiet, and I was in a car with him and his family for 11 hours! I have never talked for so long in my life. And when the conversations would be over, we'd just sit and think, and maybe put some music on. It was all good.

    It was okay for me to be serious. I'm so serious sometimes, really. In fact, I rather hate meaningless topics and frivolous conversations. There is something deeper to be found in all of the "simple things", and for me they're not worth dealing with otherwise. It was nice to be around another Delta, that's all. I've felt similarly comfortable around an ENFP I met recently, although not quite as comfortable, because we both tried too hard to be solicitous of the other's feelings.
    My sentiments exactly. I have the tendency to be serious and introspective as well and I enjoy talking to someone who can appreciate the conversation without finding it too "heavy". Whenever I talked about serious topics with an ISFp friend, she would usually interrupt and try to divert to a topic which is more fun and light-hearted.

    I feel that some ESTjs can be misunderstood. People generally think of them as workaholics who are too focused on results and practical matters (basically someone without a soul), but they are capable of been deeply involved in complex and introspective matters as well (that's why their dual is INFj!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Do they seem to be written by an ESTj? I have always enjoyed reading blogs of similar nature.
    They seem to be written by an SJ, that's for sure. The only thing that bothers me about SJs is that they take the bible too literally and do no exploring on their own - never verifying the truths they read about, just accept it for what it is. Not all, but, that is what I fear most about them.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielle
    I don't know many ESTjs, but I really liked reading those blog entries. I get it, I feel like I get him. Thanks for sharing them eunice. Man, I really got to find me one of those ESTjs.


    his blog entries were kind of detail-oriented, complex, introspective and too serious, giving too much thought to simple things in life


    Yeah, I gotta find me one of these. You know what, actually I did meet an ESTJ recently, and these entries remind me of the conversations he and I had. A great experience actually. It was just comfortable talking to him. I rarely feel so comfortable with someone I've just met. I'm very introverted and prefer quiet, and I was in a car with him and his family for 11 hours! I have never talked for so long in my life. And when the conversations would be over, we'd just sit and think, and maybe put some music on. It was all good.

    It was okay for me to be serious. I'm so serious sometimes, really. In fact, I rather hate meaningless topics and frivolous conversations. There is something deeper to be found in all of the "simple things", and for me they're not worth dealing with otherwise.
    It was nice to be around another Delta, that's all. I've felt similarly comfortable around an ENFP I met recently, although not quite as comfortable, because we both tried too hard to be solicitous of the other's feelings.
    That is generally how I feel about INFjs - they don't mind it when I talk serious it seems.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Anyone who cites the bible automatically loses my respect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    My sentiments exactly. I have the tendency to be serious and introspective as well and I enjoy talking to someone who can appreciate the conversation without finding it too "heavy". Whenever I talked about serious topics with an ISFp friend, she would usually interrupt and try to divert to a topic which is more fun and light-hearted.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. It wears people out. ISFps can get into it, especially considering their dual is ENTp, but, form a delta standpoint, they seem to get caught up in relationship/SF implications easily.

    I feel that some ESTjs can be misunderstood. People generally think of them as workaholics who are too focused on results and practical matters (basically someone without a soul), but they are capable of been deeply involved in complex and introspective matters as well (that's why their dual is INFj!)
    That is one of my favorite things about INFjs - we can talk like that. I have done with LIIs somewhat, but their own Ti sometimes gets in the way, it is not as complete as when I discuss things with EIIs, because my Te pace and movement is something they are receptive to. A lot of times, like with rockclimber for example, I will talk, and just by talking things out with her, and her inputs - even though they may as lengthy and verbose as my stream of ideas, seem to give me the right kind of guidance to end up to conclusions we mutually agree on. When INFjs talk and do get into explaining or expressing something, though, I always listen, because it usually is extremely worthwhile.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Anyone who cites the bible automatically loses my respect.
    That INTj influence is not showing very much. would say that your statement is self defeating - how are you any different than anyone who cites the bible? It is not much different form someone who will only listen to the bible: closed-mindedness.


    How is that any different from someone who will say "anyone who does not consult only the bible automatically lose my respect".
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Anyone who cites the bible automatically loses my respect.


    I actually appreciate someone better if he is able to support his stance by providing evidence from verified or published information. I would have been more skeptical if he had brought across his points without providing factual information from external sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Anyone who cites the bible automatically loses my respect.
    That INTj influence is not showing very much. would say that your statement is self defeating - how are you any different than anyone who cites the bible? It is not much different form someone who will only listen to the bible: closed-mindedness.


    How is that any different from someone who will say "anyone who does not consult only the bible automatically lose my respect".
    To be honest i feel exactly the same way. They dont loose all of my respect, just some of it. I think Mike and i are similar to our ENFp ancestor Thomas Huxley. When the theory of evolution was proposed by Charles Darwin, in Huxley's mind there was no real room for the genesis story. He then started to think well perhaps if some of this stuff is obviously bullshit maybe the whole kit and caboodle is bullshit. He even argued his views at a time that it was very unfashionable to be non Christian. He could have been punished severely or even killed.

    So i dont have a real problem with believing in a god etc just the idea of Adam and Eve and that the earth was created in 7 days.

    Anyway i have already said too much. This could turn into a mega shit fight. If people want to believe that a being of immense power does exist it is close minded of me to not also entertain the thought.
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    I realize that the biggest fault about ESTjs is that they tend to be too perfect, as if they don't have their own quirks at all. Sometimes you wish that they can be politically incorrect for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    They seem to be written by an SJ, that's for sure. The only thing that bothers me about SJs is that they take the bible too literally and do no exploring on their own - never verifying the truths they read about, just accept it for what it is. Not all, but, that is what I fear most about them.
    I agree. On a side note, I'm impressed by his maturity. There was once he decided to withdraw from the contest of student councillors in my school even though he was a very strong candidate and everyone else was confident that he might even progress on to be the president. When he was questioned by others about the rationale behind his decision, he gave a rather unexpected answer for someone his age (he was around 16+ years old then). He gave a very anti-Beta answer: "I don't want to be involved in politics anymore", which had greatly impressed me then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    I realize that the biggest fault about ESTjs is that they tend to be too perfect, as if they don't have their own quirks at all. Sometimes you wish that they can be politically incorrect for once.
    Of course that may just be the opinion of INFjs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    I realize that the biggest fault about ESTjs is that they tend to be too perfect, as if they don't have their own quirks at all. Sometimes you wish that they can be politically incorrect for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    They seem to be written by an SJ, that's for sure. The only thing that bothers me about SJs is that they take the bible too literally and do no exploring on their own - never verifying the truths they read about, just accept it for what it is. Not all, but, that is what I fear most about them.
    I agree.
    ESTjs need INFjs to make them see beyond their own 'societal' code. NFs can be much more open minded and accepting of new information, and yet still demonstrate the outstanding 'morality' that ESTjs look for and need, as they are psychologically orientated to INFjs.



    @Mea - yeah, INFjs can idealize people like that. But actually, this is very important for STJs, because.... they need someone to constantly challenge them in that way - be a moral light, the one always demonstrating or leading them in being ethical. Being idealized by an INFj has an interesting effect on the ESTjs conscience (if they are healthy), because it (can) make them more humble. If the ESTj (or anyone else) is healthy and mature, being praised for you good qualities or actions you took should only further your awareness of them and make you try even harder to become better - it is sort of a positive reminder that you still/always have room for improvement.


    It may be related to a positivist/negativist aspect of duality. When the INFjs praises (in their own way) seeing the ESTj demonstrate ethically appropriate qualities, the ESTj's negativism see it as "Yeah, maybe that was ok, but look at all of these situations where I could have done better, where this could have been improved" and so on.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Eunice, I never said that religion had anything to do with type. I just said that his religious babbling was annoying to me.

    Also, if he truly is an LSE, well, that would explain quite a bit of my annoyance over his entries. Yes, they do seem too serious but in all truth, he doesn't seem a bad guy and I understand why EIIs would do very well with such a person. Just not my style, of course and although they seem very stable, secure and comforting, it would be much too serious for me. That's just it -- being serious. It's agh... stifling. I've had conversations with UDP and I've just felt that he was the most serious guy I had ever talked to, lol. Not saying that I fully take his word on being LSE, but yeah


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    I've had conversations with UDP and I've just felt that he was the most serious guy I had ever talked to, lol. Not saying that I fully take his word on being LSE, but yeah
    That might have to go in my sig
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    I've had conversations with UDP and I've just felt that he was the most serious guy I had ever talked to, lol. Not saying that I fully take his word on being LSE, but yeah
    That might have to go in my sig
    LOL, go for it

    One more thing though, if you're LSE and I'm IEI, we'd be conflictors. I had never felt that way about you, remember how I even thought you might've been my Dual if I were EIE? Well, after more talk, we both realized that was basically impossible. Still though, it doesn't seem like we would conflict. Not that all conflictors must hate eachother or anything but on principle, values, etc. I still tend to see what you are saying most of the time.


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    talking to someone over the internet and sharing values and thoughts is a lot different then interacting with a person in person-- which would really be indicative of your relationship. much thought and time to consider someone else is added with internet communcation. in person you have to immediately respond to someone with owrds and body language, and for the most part you can tell your conflictor and opposite quadra people by these elements. Not to say it's impossible, but i think there is a physical element to type that is easier to understand/correlate than an individual's cohesive thoughts.
    asd

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    talking to someone over the internet and sharing values and thoughts is a lot different then interacting with a person in person-- which would really be indicative of your relationship. much thought and time to consider someone else is added with internet communcation. in person you have to immediately respond to someone with owrds and body language, and for the most part you can tell your conflictor and opposite quadra people by these elements. Not to say it's impossible, but i think there is a physical element to type that is easier to understand/correlate than an individual's cohesive thoughts.
    That makes sense. What would you say would be some of these physical elements, examples?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    I've had conversations with UDP and I've just felt that he was the most serious guy I had ever talked to, lol. Not saying that I fully take his word on being LSE, but yeah
    That might have to go in my sig
    LOL, go for it

    One more thing though, if you're LSE and I'm IEI, we'd be conflictors. I had never felt that way about you, remember how I even thought you might've been my Dual if I were EIE? Well, after more talk, we both realized that was basically impossible. Still though, it doesn't seem like we would conflict. Not that all conflictors must hate eachother or anything but on principle, values, etc. I still tend to see what you are saying most of the time.
    I respect you as a person, but you do not seem like someone I would be most psychologically compatible with - and that is fine, because it would be best for both of us if we were with our duals.

    Being conflictor does not mean hating each other, it just means that if we had to spend a lot of time together it would be irritating and cause the expenditure
    of a lot of psychological energy.

    It is extremely clear that you are Merry - favoring, and I am Serious - favoring.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    talking to someone over the internet and sharing values and thoughts is a lot different then interacting with a person in person-- which would really be indicative of your relationship. much thought and time to consider someone else is added with internet communcation. in person you have to immediately respond to someone with owrds and body language, and for the most part you can tell your conflictor and opposite quadra people by these elements. Not to say it's impossible, but i think there is a physical element to type that is easier to understand/correlate than an individual's cohesive thoughts.
    That makes sense. What would you say would be some of these physical elements, examples?
    I agree.


    It has to do with instinctual inclinations. That is what I have always felt with INFjs - a sort of protection orientated feeling, and always like they were welcoming it from me. This includes older INFjs, INFjs from both genders, etc - not just "sexual attraction".

    Generally speaking it has to do with energies or something like that. Auras perhaps. IME, it has to do with a drawing that promotes closeness, although at first it is hard to see. Once you "feel" it or become aware of it, the drawing seems harder to avoid.

    Perhaps - odd analogy alert - it is like birds flying through the air, and one is breaking the impact of the wind for the others behind it. Perhaps dual types are like that, but, processing information - and that of course has ramifications with the other aspects of reality. What do you think?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    talking to someone over the internet and sharing values and thoughts is a lot different then interacting with a person in person-- which would really be indicative of your relationship. much thought and time to consider someone else is added with internet communcation. in person you have to immediately respond to someone with owrds and body language, and for the most part you can tell your conflictor and opposite quadra people by these elements. Not to say it's impossible, but i think there is a physical element to type that is easier to understand/correlate than an individual's cohesive thoughts.
    That makes sense. What would you say would be some of these physical elements, examples?
    Yeah that makes a butt load of sense.

    Communication breakdown:

    What you say 7%
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    It has to do with instinctual inclinations. That is what I have always felt with INFjs - a sort of protection orientated feeling, and always like they were welcoming it from me. This includes older INFjs, INFjs from both genders, etc - not just "sexual attraction".
    I have no idea if I'm an INFj but I absolutely love people that genuinely protect me. It's such a noble quality you know, somebody looking out for another person. I suspect in other people it would seem condescending but not to me. Usually if the person really likes you, they won't be afraid to criticize you either.

    I am saddened by so many couples that don't seem to live up to this protect-y ideal that I have. Like my own mother and father said to me before that they are very happy with each other, but they don't really go out of their way to stand up for each other. It seemed like it would be horrible and unhappy for me, but for them it works, because I guess they just don't see it as important.

    Heath's physical attraction thing makes so much sense. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE NEED TO MAKE MORE VIDEOS ;P. Still not quite the same but I believe it helps.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    I like that protect-y thing too, as you put it BulletsandDoves. I would love for an SLE or LSI, or whomever to watch out for me, especially showing their off, heh, I quite enjoy the feeling of knowing that I have someone to kick butt if I'm ever in danger, you know.

    UDP, I respect you too, I am not saying that we are psychologically compatible, I totally agree that we aren't. I'm just saying if this is what conflicting really is, it's not really bad, lol. Check out Gilly and Diana,

    Body language is something that you feel, it's just too real to be concealed..
    Body language is something that you learn and you just can't get caught.. *lala sings the song*


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    I like that protect-y thing too, as you put it BulletsandDoves. I would love for an SLE or LSI, or whomever to watch out for me, especially showing their off, heh, I quite enjoy the feeling of knowing that I have someone to kick butt if I'm ever in danger, you know.
    One day this massive red head year 12 decided he was going to pour his orange juice on me when we were in year 10. He tried but my ISTp friend intervened. He was twice as big as us but the two of us took him down. Ahh love
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    I like that protect-y thing too, as you put it BulletsandDoves. I would love for an SLE or LSI, or whomever to watch out for me, especially showing their off, heh, I quite enjoy the feeling of knowing that I have someone to kick butt if I'm ever in danger, you know.

    UDP, I respect you too, I am not saying that we are psychologically compatible, I totally agree that we aren't. I'm just saying if this is what conflicting really is, it's not really bad, lol. Check out Gilly and Diana,
    If an LSE is worth his salt, he will not extend arguments with people longer than necessary...

    "Rage is a mighty god of the strong". He tends to take other people out of the condition of complacency. He does not speak much about what is good, considers it self-evident. With his grumbling emotions he strives to extinguish emotions of others. He believes that redundant emotions tire people, and this is absolutely true if applied to his dual (The Humanist). During a conversation he pressures his interlocutor, even tries to intimidate him, but if people do not fear him, he becomes courteous and polite. Fury is his line of defense in a situation of emergency in which he feels otherwise helpless. The aim of his fury is to mobilize his partner, and when this is achieved, he calms down.
    http://the16types.info/types.php?typename=ESTJ

    The one time in my life that I did, I hated it, and it was a real eye opener. Generally, that paragraph applies to me very much.


    I think, IRL, you would just find me extremely boring for your likes. I would be able to adjust myself because I would want to "give care" and improve our relations, but I would be chasing your wants, instead of forcing you to conform to my . We would both get frustrated because being our natural selves would not work out. If you really are an ENFj, it could work better, because I am extremely rational, especially in my relationships. But if INFp, and you are definitely irrational, spending time together in real life would soon get tiring for us both, unless (in my mind) we had something productive to work on (and in your mind you saw it as fun, or whatever. Creative or emotionally appealing, whatever it is you enjoy, etc).
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves
    It has to do with instinctual inclinations. That is what I have always felt with INFjs - a sort of protection orientated feeling, and always like they were welcoming it from me. This includes older INFjs, INFjs from both genders, etc - not just "sexual attraction".
    I have no idea if I'm an INFj but I absolutely love people that genuinely protect me. It's such a noble quality you know, somebody looking out for another person. I suspect in other people it would seem condescending but not to me. Usually if the person really likes you, they won't be afraid to criticize you either.

    I am saddened by so many couples that don't seem to live up to this protect-y ideal that I have. Like my own mother and father said to me before that they are very happy with each other, but they don't really go out of their way to stand up for each other. It seemed like it would be horrible and unhappy for me, but for them it works, because I guess they just don't see it as important.

    Heath's physical attraction thing makes so much sense. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE NEED TO MAKE MORE VIDEOS ;P. Still not quite the same but I believe it helps.
    Yeah, I really should make a video... hmm........

    As for that protection ideal - I always thought it was just an insecurity on my part, (and it can be I suppose). But now I realize I enjoy it a lot. And apparently INFjs do too - they want me to be that way. I have not had extensive experience with them, but I have always been drawn to them. They are easily the most huggable type, and it seems extremely natural. Maybe it is just because I am a guy, and IMO INFjs are extremely feminine, so that chemistry works too. But, it just works for me. I like their delicacy and idealism, and it sort of makes protecting them more rewarding. The more I think about it the more I realize Gilly's insights are spot on:

    Paranoid Se: "Sometimes it feels like the world is working against me; I never have everything I need to accomplish my goals. I just want one person who will always help me, even when it feels like everyone else is working against me."
    Basic desire: To be supported

    Paranoid Ni: "I feel like I don't have any purpose in the world; I wander through life without really being sure of what I'm going to do with myself. I just want one person to need me so I know that, if all else fails, I have something to live for."
    Basic desire: To be needed
    I enjoy that sense of being needed very much, and for INFjs, their loyalty is extremely appealing. It is like... I know I am investing in something that will last, and that is a great feeling. I want to be that one person they need so much - and them wanting/needing me is sort of the ultimate reward.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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