Type behaviour in different cultures

[joseph2505]

How do you think type behaviour affects across globe ?

An INTJ in Japan and U.S ,will they have lot of difference?

[Expat]

I have lived in 6 different countries, and I do think that different cultures have influence on how types behave and perceive themselves and are perceived by others.

Of course, types remain the same, but different cultures encourage different kinds of behavior.

For instance, I'd say that eg Spain generally encourages ESFp behavior. By that I mean that it's generally accepted as "normal" to decide to do things on the spur of the moment and to have a large number of casual acquaintances rather than few long-term relationships. And to be introverted is seen as a very negative thing.

The most ESFp-like woman I know is from Spain, and the concept of different types makes no sense to her -- indeed, she regards herself as being "perfectly normal" and others (like me) as being "odd". She does not regard INTjs as a legitimate type, but rather as people who need "professional help".

Of course there are INTjs in Spain, but the point is that they'll feel more strongly as "different" than in countries like Germany, and they're the ones who'll feel the pressure at work, and socially, to behave against their own type.

By contrast, German culture strongly encourages ISTj behavior - - you're supposed to be always on time, not to talk too much, to follow the rules, and to be a reliable father and husband - even if tyrannical - is seen as very positive. Of course there are German ENFps, but they're the ones who are seen as having to "improve themselves".

I even think that, at first, a German ENFp might be mistaken for an ISTj upon arrival in Spain.

I can say nothing about INTjs in Japan. I think Japan may encourage ISFj behavior.

[Topaz]

Expat, thank you for sharing that. It makes alot of sense to me and I even see smaller versions of that with companies and organizations.
I love the part about INTJ are seen as needing 'professional help' So true
No just kidding. But I have done some traveling too but Ive never been to Spain. Now I have an incentive. I heard Barcelona is sort of ENFPish with all the fanciful works of Gaudi. OK, Im putting that on my list. Germany?... we'll see... :wink:

Topaz

[Kim]

By contrast, German culture strongly encourages ISTj behavior - - you're supposed to be always on time, not to talk too much, to follow the rules, and to be a reliable father and husband - even if tyrannical - is seen as very positive. Of course there are German ENFps, but they're the ones who are seen as having to "improve themselves".

This is a terrible, terrible generalization. I don't like it.

[Expat]

This is a terrible, terrible generalization. I don't like it.

It is indeed a generalization, but anything having to do with cultures and even types is a generalization to some degree.

I do not mean that all or even most Germans are lSTjs, or even that there are more ISTjs in Germany than in Spain.
I have worked and studied in three different regions of Germany over several years. Try asking people to go out with one hour's notice. Then try the same in Madrid. See how often you are successful in each case. This is based not only on my own personal experience but on many others'.

For the record, I personally much prefer the German way from this point of view and feel much less "different" there than in other countries. So I have absolutely no axe to grind in this regard.

[Kim]

you're supposed to be always on time, not to talk too much, to follow the rules, and to be a reliable father and husband - even if tyrannical - is seen as very positive.

The first part is very similar to the US except that business situations are more formal. But tyrannical fathers are NOT considered very positive. Not in the younger generations. Reliable, yes. But that is seen positive in many cultures...

[Expat]

The first part is very similar to the US except that business situations are more formal. But tyrannical fathers are NOT considered very positive. Not in the younger generations. Reliable, yes. But that is seen positive in many cultures...

"Tyrannical" was too loaded a word. "Benevolently authoritarian" would be more adequate.

[Kim]

"Benevolently authoritarian" would be more adequate.

No, I really disagree with this.

[Expat]

"Benevolently authoritarian" would be more adequate.

No, I really disagree with this.

Ok, let me give one example of what I mean.
Go to any number of restaurants in, say, Italy. Then go to the same number of restaurants in Germany.
I assure you that there will be a far larger number of children running about and making noise in restaurants in Italy than in Germany (assuming that the same total number of children was observed). That is the sort of thing I mean.

[diamond]

The wrong question is being asked?

The question is what are the characteristics of certain cultures and how do these cultures influences personality type expression?

[Kim]

"Benevolently authoritarian" would be more adequate.

No, I really disagree with this.

Ok, let me give one example of what I mean.
Go to any number of restaurants in, say, Italy. Then go to the same number of restaurants in Germany.
I assure you that there will be a far larger number of children running about and making noise in restaurants in Italy than in Germany (assuming that the same total number of children was observed). That is the sort of thing I mean.

Agreed, but that is not necessarily related to authoritarian or tyrannical fathers.

[Expat]

Agreed, but that is not necessarily related to authoritarian or tyrannical fathers.

But it is related to children being less or more disciplined by their parents, or at least taught to be behave more quietly, isn't it?

Perhaps I was careless in my choice of words.

[Kim]

Agreed, but that is not necessarily related to authoritarian or tyrannical fathers.

But it is related to children being less or more disciplined by their parents, or at least taught to be behave more quietly, isn't it?

Perhaps I was careless in my choice of words.

I think we would have to go into a whole spiel (pun totally intended) of mentality, etc. That's ok. I just know a bunch of absolutely non-tyrannical German fathers and wanted to defend their honor. Germans are very difficult to compare to other cultures because of a very distinct collective inferiority complex.

But now we are going off topic :wink:

PS: And, ehm, we could always ask an Italian teenage girl with a conservative catholic father about being taught discipline. :wink:

[Expat]

I just know a bunch of absolutely non-tyrannical German fathers and wanted to defend their honor.

I had this impression - - that is the problem with generalizations. I also know some let's-go-to-a-party-right-now Germans.

[Scrummy]

Although I'm sure that cultural milieu does have some impact on behavior, I think most types will find a way to express their "typeness" in spite of the cultural bias. You're more likely to find variations in behavior due to the following factors:
- age cohort
- gender
- socio-economic background

[Kim]

I just know a bunch of absolutely non-tyrannical German fathers and wanted to defend their honor.

I had this impression - - that is the problem with generalizations. I also know some let's-go-to-a-party-right-now Germans.

I would still say your generalization does not hold true, though. Not just based on who I know. I think there exist great misconceptions about cultures that influence our way of looking at things.

And you know, Germans are party animals!

One more thing: In Germany, there is a really big generation gap when it comes to stereotypical German behavior.

[Expat]

And you know, Germans are party animals!

Yes indeed, but most of them prefer to schedule them weeks in advance rather than throw them spontaneously. That is the difference.

[Kim]

And you know, Germans are party animals!

Yes indeed, but most of them prefer to schedule them weeks in advance rather than throw them spontaneously. That is the difference.

No, they go out and party every weekend anyway, so there is no need for scheduling.

[schrödinger's cat]

By contrast, German culture strongly encourages ISTj behavior - - you're supposed to be always on time, not to talk too much, to follow the rules, and to be a reliable father and husband - even if tyrannical - is seen as very positive. Of course there are German ENFps, but they're the ones who are seen as having to "improve themselves".

I even think that, at first, a German ENFp might be mistaken for an ISTj upon arrival in Spain.

True.

[schrödinger's cat]

Interesting thread. I'm from Germany. There is certainly a big generation gap, and it's wider than in other countries I've been to. As to the discipline, the interesting thing is this: it's really a bit complicated. Yes, we're quieter, more organized and less demonstrative, and on the face of it you might get the impression that we're more disciplined as children. BUT:

When I was in France on a school exchange (that was in the 80s), I was surprised to find that French teenagers actually enjoy LESS freedom than German ones. French kids weren't allowed to go to McDonalds, to smoke, to drink, to go discos etc., so when the French students came to Germany, they wanted to do all of those things as much as possible. They wanted to go completely wild. And you could see that it wasn't as if they were used to doing all those things. It was more like "alRIGHT - freedom!! Now where's McDonalds? Where's the disco? Where can I buy cigarettes?"
Then when it was our turn to go to France, we were surprised by how strict the school was. Students quietly took notes while the teacher lectured them. No one talked back to the teacher. People rarely asked questions. The school was surrounded by a high fence, and once school had started the fence was closed and any latecomers had to pass through a little gate, where their names were taken. Our group was once standing by that fence chatting, and a teacher came and shoo'd us away. We asked why, and she said: "Well, students aren't allowed to stand close to the wall after school has started, because they might help latecomers climb the fence." And school started like this: a bell run, and each class lined up in the courtyard and then marched to its room. Compared to this, our German schools looked like libertarian mayhem. We were really surprised.

I'd suggest it isn't really helpful to compare Germans to Italians. If comparisons need to be made, we should be compared to other Northern Europeans, f.expl. to the English, Dutch, Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes and Danes.

One thing I can say is: Germans of the usually "disorganized" types (ESFPs, ENFPs, ISFPs...) IMO tend to be quieter and more organized than their counterparts in some (not all) other countries. That could be why we give off the impression of "disciplining" our children rigidly. It's not done consciously; it's merely what everybody is like, and of course we teach that to our children. I'd say when it comes to conscious, intentional discipline, we're not very rigid at all, and in some aspects we're actually less rigid. (Does that make sense?)

[Expat]

Interesting about France, was it in a big or small city?

I'd suggest it isn't really helpful to compare Germans to Italians. If comparisons need to be made, we should be compared to other Northern Europeans, f.expl. to the English, Dutch, Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes and Danes.

On the contrary, if you want to observe possible influences of culture on type behavior, you have to take examples based on extremes. Otherwise the differences will be too subtle to be observed. That's precisely why I mentioned ENFps in Germany "becoming" ISTjs in Spain.

A Dutch ENFp will presumably be like a German ENFp - - so what will you conclude from that? That culture has no influence? How, if you start with similar cultures?

It's not done consciously; it's merely what everybody is like, and of course we teach that to our children. I'd say when it comes to conscious, intentional discipline, we're not very rigid at all, and in some aspects we're actually less rigid. (Does that make sense?)

But that's precisely what culture is all about! You don't notice it because "everybody" is like that. Children are disciplined or taught to be quiet to a larger extent in Germany than in Italy - - but you don't do it "consciously" because "everybody" does it, that is, because that is the predominant culture.

I think you are being over-sensitive to specific words like "discipline", which you automatically associate with negative conotations - - but children being children everywhere, if German children are quieter than Italian ones, then the former are indeed more disciplined, by their parents or by the dominant culture, whether parents see themselves as consciously rigid or not - -

[schrödinger's cat]

On the contrary, if you want to observe possible influences of culture on type behavior, you have to take examples based on extremes. Otherwise the differences will be too subtle to be observed.

True. In that case you could contrast the Swiss to the Italians. Or the people from Liechtenstein. By using the Germans you risk slipping into the popular stereotype that "Germans = Prussians = rigid, humourless, anal, OCD". You could also contrast Swiss, Germans and Icelanders to Italians, Greek and Maltese.

A Dutch ENFp will presumably be like a German ENFp - - so what will you conclude from that? That culture has no influence? How, if you start with similar cultures?

I will conclude that culture is not the same thing as nationality. What I find unhelpful is contrasting one nation that is already heavily clichéd (so to speak) in a negative way with a more popular one. You risk strengthening popular stereotypes. By comparing one group of nations to another group of nations (Scandinavia, Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein and Switzerland vs. Italy, Greece, Andorra and Malta, or whatever), you avoid this.

An example. "Oh, those Chechens are so warlike! Look at the Swiss, they haven't started a war in centuries!" Of course you could say that, but it's more enlightening to look at other local groups. It will make people realize that all Caucasians tend to be warlike to some extent.

I think you are being over-sensitive to specific words like "discipline", which you automatically associate with negative conotations.

In your posting, it was followed by the word "tyrannical". Experience has taught me that other nations tend to view us in a light that is unjustifiably negative. "Discipline" is usually one of the words associated with this. The word was also heavily (ab-)used by the Nazis, so, yes, for me it will always have some negative connotations. And yes, I do take this seriously. This IS serious.

If German children are quieter than Italian ones, then the former are indeed more disciplined, by their parents or by the dominant culture, whether parents see themselves as consciously rigid or not - -

I agree, but this distinction is an important one to make, otherwise you risk strengthening the stereotype. If you had used the word "quiet" or "more well-behaved", then things would have been different.

[Expat]

Ok, I now understand where you (and presumably Kim) are coming from.

I agree, I could have used those groups of nations rather than single out Germany specifically - - I did so because I know Germany very well, indeed, all my grandparents were Germans and Austrians.

I will conclude that culture is not the same thing as nationality

I took for granted that this was obvious -- again, I used Germany as an example I know very well, not to imply that Germany was unique in this respect.

As for the "quiet, well-behaved" vs "disciplined" distinction. If I had just said that German (or Icelandic, or whatever) children are quieter and better behaved than Italian (or Spanish or whatever) ones, without mentioning that this is due to discipline - or whichever word you want to use - what would be the implication? That one group of children is "naturally" quieter and better behaved than the other one? That is much worse in my opinion!

As an INTj (unless Hugo's new test is right and I am actually an INTp or ENTj :wink: ) I greatly value my independence, which is perhaps why I was quick to use the word "tyrannical" to mean parents who are a bit more rigid.

[schrödinger's cat]

Well, if your folks are German and Austrian, that's different then. Us Germans are allowed to complain about Germany.

The whole problem is merely that this stereotype exists. Even the most well-meaning generalisation might plug into it inadvertently.

As for the "quiet, well-behaved" vs "disciplined" distinction. If I had just said that German (or Icelandic, or whatever) children are quieter and better behaved than Italian (or Spanish or whatever) ones, without mentioning that this is due to discipline - or whichever word you want to use - what would be the implication? That one group of children is "naturally" quieter and better behaved than the other one? That is much worse in my opinion!

That's true. Finding a "neutral" way of putting it would be a bit like walking on eggshells. What might be helpful is using examples and anecdotes. The INTJ I know thinks anecdotes aren't serious enough, so I'll just state briefly what I think are their advantages (just in case)
1. they're specific,
2. and therefore, while people might dispute a generalization, they cannot dispute your experience,
3. instead, they can tell their own experiences and anecdotes, and over time a distinct image will emerge (like piecing together a jigsaw puzzle),
3. plus the whole athmosphere can be kept light-hearted, because like ENFPs usually do you can add a qualifier after every sentence ("...but perhaps that was just me, perhaps cannibals are really nice when you get to know them personally.")

So, what about this? "When I spent two weeks in Naples, whenever I was out in the street the children were just everywhere. In the restaurants they used to swing from the chandeliers, everybody was shouting at them, they were shouting at everybody... I got a definite sense of 'joie de vivre'. Now, back in Hamburg where I lived at that time, this would have been unthinkable. There, children sit quietly at table and fold their napkins to models of the benzole molecule."

[Artemis]

I've had several experiences with German tourists in this country and German tourists in China. They have no respect for culture. They are rude, loud, and totally oblivious to anyone but themselves. Maybe I just met the wrong bunch.

I am part German and I just detest that part of me. If I could cut it out I would, but perhaps that just comes from being a Jew. We tend to be prejudice against any and everyone. It's our culture. I said once to someone that no one is more prejudice than a Jew, and he said, "perhaps a black man." Totally did not understand where I was coming from. Asians tend to be quite the same in my experience as to race pride. The only other culture a Jew will consider marrying into is Chinese. We respect their purity and intelligence.

Did I open a can or worms here or what? I get tired of being nice when I am in a bitchy mood. Still pissed at my ENTj. It's his Welsh/American Indian fault!

[Creepy-]

dsfs

[Artemis]

Purity of blood is extemely inportant to a Jew. If you are mixed you are not considered part of the Jewish community. It's not just religion that unites us. This just one of those thngs you grow up with and have a hard time coming to terms with or realizing it doesn't really matter. No one is more proud of their heritage than I am. It defines who I am. Sad isn't it? I am a Jew first and foremost. Everything stems from that. You gotta get inside our heads. I didn't say it was a good thing. If a Jew does wrong it does harm to all his race. We all suffer the shame. There is no individuallity.

[Darklord]

German tourists are infamous for climbing up into the high, snowy mountain peak... wearing sandals and shorts . Every year, the Red Cross has to go up there after them again and again. More German ears litter the Norwegian mountain passes than flakes of snow.
And that sounds more like ESxp behaviour to me.

[Artemis]

When my husband was in China the German woman tourists would take their shirts off and walk around in their bras when it was hot. The Chinese were just flabbergasted! A little respect for culture would be nice. When I was in Oregen visiting my sister . . . Oregon gets a lot of German tourist for some strange reason . . . you could be waiting in a long line to get waited on say at a gift shop and the Germans would step right in front of you and put their intended purchases down on the counter. Then they would talk to each other in their own language and be totally oblivious to what anyone else had to say to them. One bad apple . . . .

[Expat]

German tourists are infamous for climbing up into the high, snowy mountain peak... wearing sandals and shorts . Every year, the Red Cross has to go up there after them again and again. More German ears litter the Norwegian mountain passes than flakes of snow.
And that sounds more like ESxp behaviour to me.

That is hardly typical of, or exclusive to, German tourists. German tourists are only more numerous.

[Creepy-]

dffsd

[Artemis]

I think the reason I am so into my heritage is because it's the one thing no one can take from me. It's a sense of belonging. You all have heard me say I was an abused child. I replaced self-esteem with racial pride. It was the only thing I had to pull myself up with. I have this horrible thought sometimes that what if I was adopted? I think I would go over the edge . . . something I am deathly afraid of happening.

I'm not really a bitch . . . just a scared silly little girl.

[Scrummy]

I am part German and I just detest that part of me. If I could cut it out I would, but perhaps that just comes from being a Jew. We tend to be prejudice against any and everyone. It's our culture. I said once to someone that no one is more prejudice than a Jew, and he said, "perhaps a black man." Totally did not understand where I was coming from. Asians tend to be quite the same in my experience as to race pride. The only other culture a Jew will consider marrying into is Chinese. We respect their purity and intelligence.

I'm afraid you are speaking for yourself, here. Most Jews that I know recognize that this sort of "purity of blood" is an archaic notion. The Jews themselves have historically never been of "pure" blood anyway. Research the history of the Jews after the Old Testament, and you will find that the Jewish community today is one of great diversity. Go back far enough on the family tree of any Jewish family today, and you will eventually come accross as least one ancestor not of "pure Jewery."

In the case of the Asians, it is even less the case <- I came from such a family, and grew up among a large Asian community. In the case of most Asian families, it is not so much an issue of race pride, but more of cultural pride. Most Asian culture hold cleanliness, sobriety, education, and austerity quite dear <- not something that jives too well with the American (youth) culture.

There is, an underlying thread, however, of racism amongst many American immigrant communities. And if that is what you are speaking of, I'm sorry.

[Artemis]

Baby said: "There is, an underlying thread, however, of racism amongst many American immigrant communities. And if that is what you are speaking of, I'm sorry."

Why are you sorry? Are you saying you are sorry for me? If so, that's okay. I can only speak from my experiences and they are very few and far between. I know I'm an uneducated ass at times. I try too hard.

And I don't separate culture and race. I do not live in a Jewish community and all my opinions and ideas have come from immediate family only. I live in a small, small world. Sometimes I feel like I've lived inside a paperbag all my life and am just now discovering that the bag was never closed.

[Kim]

When my husband was in China the German woman tourists would take their shirts off and walk around in their bras when it was hot. The Chinese were just flabbergasted! A little respect for culture would be nice. When I was in Oregen visiting my sister . . . Oregon gets a lot of German tourist for some strange reason . . . you could be waiting in a long line to get waited on say at a gift shop and the Germans would step right in front of you and put their intended purchases down on the counter. Then they would talk to each other in their own language and be totally oblivious to what anyone else had to say to them. One bad apple . . . .

This is what Europeans say about American tourists. :wink:
But we always just see a glimpse.

[Topaz]

Baby said: "There is, an underlying thread, however, of racism amongst many American immigrant communities. And if that is what you are speaking of, I'm sorry."

Why are you sorry? Are you saying you are sorry for me? If so, that's okay. I can only speak from my experiences and they are very few and far between. I know I'm an uneducated ass at times. I try too hard.

And I don't separate culture and race. I do not live in a Jewish community and all my opinions and ideas have come from immediate family only. I live in a small, small world. Sometimes I feel like I've lived inside a paperbag all my life and am just now discovering that the bag was never closed.

Just out of curiosity Artemis, was your previous husband and is your current husband Jewish?

Topaz

[Darklord]

That is hardly typical of, or exclusive to, German tourists. German tourists are only more numerous.

Agreed. I just said they were infamous for it.

[Cone]

Baby said: "There is, an underlying thread, however, of racism amongst many American immigrant communities. And if that is what you are speaking of, I'm sorry."

Why are you sorry? Are you saying you are sorry for me? If so, that's okay. I can only speak from my experiences and they are very few and far between. I know I'm an uneducated ass at times. I try too hard.

And I don't separate culture and race. I do not live in a Jewish community and all my opinions and ideas have come from immediate family only. I live in a small, small world. Sometimes I feel like I've lived inside a paperbag all my life and am just now discovering that the bag was never closed.

Just out of curiosity Artemis, was your previous husband and is your current husband Jewish?

Topaz

No, none of them were Jewish. Her Jewish pride comes from the identity crisis common to INxps. It's kind of like ENFps and the 50 million interests/religions/beliefs they go through in their lifetimes.

[Topaz]

Baby said: "There is, an underlying thread, however, of racism amongst many American immigrant communities. And if that is what you are speaking of, I'm sorry."

Why are you sorry? Are you saying you are sorry for me? If so, that's okay. I can only speak from my experiences and they are very few and far between. I know I'm an uneducated ass at times. I try too hard.

And I don't separate culture and race. I do not live in a Jewish community and all my opinions and ideas have come from immediate family only. I live in a small, small world. Sometimes I feel like I've lived inside a paperbag all my life and am just now discovering that the bag was never closed.

Just out of curiosity Artemis, was your previous husband and is your current husband Jewish?

Topaz

No, none of them were Jewish. Her Jewish pride comes from the identity crisis common to INxps. It's kind of like ENFps and the 50 million interests/religions/beliefs they go through in their lifetimes.

uh.. Thank you Artemis,
For the record, I have had only one religion during my life and my beliefs have not really changed but have been refined. As far as my interest.... ok ya got me....

Topaz

[schrödinger's cat]

Honestly, from the moment I saw the subject of this thread I knew what it would turn out to be like. It was shit waiting to hit the fan. I mean, as a topic, it's interesting and all that, but it's also a slippery slope to a particular kind of xenophobia. And hey, I've been proved right. I wish I hadn't.

Could you just start a new thread with the subject line "anti-German sentiments"? Preferably before anyone starts to talk about Iraqis, Serbians, gays, feminists, drummers and people who try to practise the french horn?