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Thread: How to find/recognize/identify ESTps, main traits

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    Default How to find/recognize/identify ESTps, main traits

    Keep your ears clean and keep your eyes open. You can usually hear the ESTps. They don't really disappear into the crowd. They are the first ones to try new fun-fun things and they are the last ones to chicken out. :wink:

    EDIT: ...because ESTps are everywhere. They like new activities, so they are likely to often try new things. There is always a chance of bumping into ESTps in every activity group. They like LARP, they like D&D, they like archery, but they also like travelling, sports, etc. They might not stay with the hobby for long, but if one ESTp leaves, there will be other ESTps to spend some time in the activity group. They are everywhere, you just have to spot them.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Keep your ears clean and keep your eyes open. You can usually hear the ESTps. They don't really disappear into the crowd. They are the first ones to try new fun-fun things and they are the last ones to chicken out. :wink:
    Not always true. They are actually surprisingly insecure and they disappear into the crowd way more easily than e.g. ESFps. If they are drunk though they are more likely to match that description. At least the ESTps I know tend to because really loud and rude when drunk even if they try to behave rather conservative otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Keep your ears clean and keep your eyes open. You can usually hear the ESTps. They don't really disappear into the crowd. They are the first ones to try new fun-fun things and they are the last ones to chicken out. :wink:
    Not always true. They are actually surprisingly insecure and they disappear into the crowd way more easily than e.g. ESFps. If they are drunk though they are more likely to match that description. At least the ESTps I know tend to because really loud and rude when drunk even if they try to behave rather conservative otherwise.
    I don't know even one ESTp who disappeas into the crowd. Not one. I do know 4 who are the most active in crowd. Not easy to miss them because they just stand out. I'm not sure if they are even familiar with the term socially shy. They are very open and extroverted both drunk and sober. I think you're talking about ESTjs.

    I'm not saying that ESTps are always loud and obnoxious or anything. I usually like the kind of energy they have.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    The less feminine are easy to spot: they have a low voice, bossy demeanor and talk rough. Repulsive.

    The more feminine are harder. Something I have noticed - I know it won't sound flattering, but it doesn't mean that they aren't attractive - is that they tend to have a large head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Keep your ears clean and keep your eyes open. You can usually hear the ESTps. They don't really disappear into the crowd. They are the first ones to try new fun-fun things and they are the last ones to chicken out. :wink:
    Not always true. They are actually surprisingly insecure and they disappear into the crowd way more easily than e.g. ESFps. If they are drunk though they are more likely to match that description. At least the ESTps I know tend to because really loud and rude when drunk even if they try to behave rather conservative otherwise.
    I don't know even one ESTp who disappeas into the crowd. Not one. I do know 4 who are the most active in crowd. Not easy to miss them because they just stand out. I'm not sure if they are even familiar with the term socially shy. They are very open and extroverted both drunk and sober. I think you're talking about ESTjs.

    I'm not saying that ESTps are always loud and obnoxious or anything. I usually like the kind of energy they have.
    Oh they are definately not ESTjs. I know a lot of those I didn't mean they disappear into the crowd more easily than your average person it was more like the first ones that jump into my face from the crowd are not ESTps but instead sensory EF types. ESTps might be the next after those though. I don't know. This is just my impression.

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    just do something stupid and the ESTp will be the first one to laugh or call you on it

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    esfp enfj entj stand out more
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    just do something stupid and the ESTp will be the first one to laugh or call you on it
    This is so true. I realize that ESTps frequently enjoy bringing up such episodes to joke about. I know they just want to have a good laugh, but they can get a little overboard sometimes without considering the feelings of the person they are joking about. I feel that the logical types (ESTp and ENTj) tend to be very insensitive, whereas the ethical types (ESFp and ENFj) tend to be more understanding and will stop their teasing before it gets out of hand.

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    So aside from being ESTp and having large heads, how else do you spot an ESTp chick?
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    They'll be the averagest people you'll never notice. At least in my experience. Also they'll be the people that will pop out of nowhere when you need them most, like when you're under attack they step up to defend you. Also IME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade
    So aside from being ESTp and having large heads, how else do you spot an ESTp chick?
    '

    Go for the eyes my friend...go for the eyes... But really one thing to look for especially in female ESTps is the "fake Fe". They seem to like Fe a lot and try to show Fe themselves. They can be very playful. But it always seems a bit animated sort of. If you watch them long enough their natural gaze surfaces. It is a kind of heavy/stingy evaluating gaze which can look mysteriously sexy and kind of erotic or predatorish or intimidating depending on your likes and dislikes. They often look you from the corner of their eye sort of. They sort of don't look at you but quickly make sharp evaluating gazes when you don't look at them. Try to catch them at this point.

    This would be Feish kinda harmless face:


    Sometimes they are sort of pretending they don't notice you but they are fully aware of you at this point:


    They can suddenly switch to this kind of gaze even if they don't seem to be focusing on you initially (it usually lasts from one second to some seconds so it is not that long but it is always long enough that you can notice it)


    They can also sort of stare at you directly but it is rare and usually done to make you react some way

    This is a more playful direct stare. Your reactions are watched closely. They are playing with you at this point like a cat does with a mouse


    This is more predatorish direct stare. This is not done to get a reaction but to focus on the prey

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    Default Re: How do you...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade
    How do you... find ESTp chicks?
    You don't. They find you. And when they do, watch out. Seriously, they're everywhere and you'll bump into one sooner or later unless you live in a cave. If you find one with a non-Beta friend, you're in luck because her attention will almost always migrate towards you if you're INFp. ESTps turn into the most gushy, smiley people when you open your mouth.

    XoX's post above depicts them pretty accurately.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    you'll bump into one sooner or later unless you live in a cave
    Wow. Looks like all romantic hope for me is lost now.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade
    So aside from being ESTp and having large heads, how else do you spot an ESTp chick?
    Really? A lot of ESTp girls I know IRL have rather small heads. They VI like

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    How do you know for sure those two girls are ESTps, Eunice?

    I know Jess Alba is always mentioned as ESTp.. is she REALLY? That would be pretty amazing.


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    Jessica Alba doesn't really have that small of a head in my opinion. She also has a wide square jaw bone, but she carries it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    ESTPs are usually the center of attention. They strive to be beacause of their hidden agenda. Also I have a test for weeding them out. I issue a challenge and I'm pretty sure no ESTP would back down. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know four ESTPs, two male and two female and the things they all have in common are death glares as I like to call them which are done to make people step down. ESTP definetly wants submission. I suggest you don't attempt to stare back for very long or you could find yourself in serious trouble. Other characteristics that they share include the need to put people down by making fun of them or challenging them in a field of great skill but this also relates to the death glares i mentioned. Hope that helps you find an ESTP =]
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    Default Re: How do you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade
    How do you... find ESTp chicks?
    You don't. They find you. And when they do, watch out. Seriously, they're everywhere and you'll bump into one sooner or later unless you live in a cave. If you find one with a non-Beta friend, you're in luck because her attention will almost always migrate towards you if you're INFp. ESTps turn into the most gushy, smiley people when you open your mouth.

    XoX's post above depicts them pretty accurately.
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    Default Re: How do you...

    Quote Originally Posted by ESTP
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlueBlade
    How do you... find ESTp chicks?
    You don't. They find you. And when they do, watch out. Seriously, they're everywhere and you'll bump into one sooner or later unless you live in a cave. If you find one with a non-Beta friend, you're in luck because her attention will almost always migrate towards you if you're INFp. ESTps turn into the most gushy, smiley people when you open your mouth.

    XoX's post above depicts them pretty accurately.
    110% true
    No, 120%. :wink:
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    Default How to find/recognize/identify ESTps, main traits

    What are some key factors to note in spotting SLEs? This is from the ENFj hangout thread because it split off as I was talking to Baby about not being able to find any male SLEs. It's really quite saddening. I had a topic once about attracting SLEs, but I don't feel like bumping that all the way back up again, it's pretty old.

    Namely, I want to know some physical attributes that they display or behaviors that they might all have in common. I am extremely intimidated by SLEs (or at least I am intimidated by the image of them I have in my head, lol) and I would be scared shitless to approach them. I want to know how to make them approach me. I'd love to have more Dual interaction, as I have had very little.


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    Spotting them is easy; they give a quiet, confident, and independent appearance. They seem to either talk as if they do not care about something or someone that imposes rules on them, or they speak as if they are on the attack in some socially sanctioned manner. They also first appear either as serious and confident or somehow displaying , like smiling while talking.

    I do not know what to tell you as far as approaching one though. You could try going to parties or other social functions more often and increase your chances.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    To be extremely honest, I do go to parties quite often but I never find these fabled SLEs... nearly all the people I know are dominant... wtf? Especially males. I know quite a few SEE females but other than that.. I'm out of luck.


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    This is one of those things that you have to know what you want and know how valuable it is to you. You sound like you are afraid of approaching SLE's, in which case you are going to have to wait until an SLE just happens to notice you (which does not happen often according to dual descriptions). You are going to have to get out there and make yourself more noticeable.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Default Re: Spotting SLEs

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    What are some key factors to note in spotting SLEs?...

    Namely, I want to know some physical attributes that they display or behaviors that they might all have in common. I am extremely intimidated by SLEs (or at least I am intimidated by the image of them I have in my head, lol) and I would be scared shitless to approach them. I want to know how to make them approach me. I'd love to have more Dual interaction, as I have had very little.
    Eh... they're not hard to spot, really. Usually the center of attention in some form or another. At least when they're "on"... I've also found ESTps are very "love em'-hate em". If they're male ESTps (and this goes for ESFps also), other guys will either admire them with a fervor approaching worship, or else they will grouse about all the attention said ES_p is garnering from the female persuasion. I don't see them as particularly serious unless they're in "observer" mode, unsure and hanging back.

    They can be both lovely and awful. Acutely sensitive and heartless. Chivalrous as well as tastelessly crude. Depending...

    And it is *all* about getting their attention.
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    **********

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    To be extremely honest, I do go to parties quite often but I never find these fabled SLEs... nearly all the people I know are dominant... wtf? Especially males. I know quite a few SEE females but other than that.. I'm out of luck.
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    The biggest obstacle in duality is really... get started, lol. It's intimidating approaching anyone we're interested in, but with ESTps I always get the creeping feeling that they can always find someoone better to spend their time with and that they'll find me boring. The best way to get on their radar, though, is just in a way that's natural to the time and place. If you see one in class that you want to talk to, you might say something like: "For some reason I get the feeling I forgot something. Did we have anything due today?" and make light talk. Or if you're at a party, maybe just comment on the music, drunks, or whatever. How I met this one ESTp was asking for directions at campus orientation.

    Once you get over that, though, the ESTp always seems to just naturally light up and ease into their place in the conversation. It might be a little uncomfortable at first, but how you can tell it's duality is how comfortable it feels. You sort of feel "in the moment" and don't have to anticipate as much what the other person is going to say or how they are going to react, because you know whatever comes out of their mouth, you'll be able to cope with. (This can also work against you, strangely. Sometimes when you want to be angry at the person, you can't. The anger sort of diffuses in the moment.) Usually there's lots of laughing, and lots of moments of: "Me too!" or "Really? You do THAT? That's so awesome!"

    I can't really offer too much advice about spotting ESTps and approaching them, other than just try and relax and don't psyche yourself out and talk to people. If the person isn't your dual, you've lost nothing. If they ARE your dual, it will be comfortable.

    Also, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but: almost all the ESTps that I've become friends with, and the two that I've been involved with romantically, have actually approached ME as opposed to the other way around. I didn't realise they were ESTp until after the first encounter and had time to reflect on what just happened. They will seem like the most unassuming, normal people. "THAT was the infamous ESTp? Wow."
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Also, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but: almost all the ESTps that I've become friends with, and the two that I've been involved with romantically, have actually approached ME as opposed to the other way around. I didn't realise they were ESTp until after the first encounter and had time to reflect on what just happened. They will seem like the most unassuming, normal people. "THAT was the infamous ESTp? Wow."
    Do you think there's a gender effect here? I've often thought of how gender/orientation affects personality type. I imagine it's a pretty strong/important influence, yet there's little or no discussion about it in most personality theory. The little I've seen is here on the 16types descriptions of erotic attitudes (and so poorly translated as to make it WTF?).

    I've never been content waiting to be approached. Perhaps it's impatience or unwillingness to proceed through the various steps. Some kind of urgency grips me, like I need to see progress. I see something I want and immediately start ruminating what subtle steps to take to move the situation forward (albeit, with lots of waiting for Fate to intervene). I often push myself to be the initiator, but am never really comfortable with the role. When/if the situation settles into an actual bond -- a well-established, effortless back-and-forth contact, I'm most at ease.
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    Hahaha, awesome replies. Even you, heath - it's true, I don't do enough drugs. Perhaps I'll do some more ... anything to help with my SLE attraction factor

    So Baby, how did those relationships with SLEs go? Were you terribly upset when you broke up? I mean, I get the feeling that Duality is very difficult to get over, since it's so "great" and all.

    Well, there's still not too much for me to go on, I'll just hope for the best, especially when I get to finally go to University after this last year of high school... yay!


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    yes i agree that they'll approach you, not the other way around. think of it like this: they set their goals and if it's to get you, you can be sure they'll be talkin to ya.

    they are quieter than you would think at first. they scope situations out to analyze the power base. they don't like to draw that much attention to themselves initially. once they have completed their analysis, they'll be exceedingly outgoing.

    people either love them or hate them, but they always get a following. they're like the pied piper their followers will follow them anywhere and they can get people to do stuff.

    they tend to like sports, both playing them and watching them, and they keep up on what's going on in sports.

    i would think they'd make good salesmen, construction workers and foremen, mobsters and other criminals (unfortunately, but not all estp's by any means), you might see them in the stock market/financial world too.

    they stay pretty busy, too. the EP temperament is easy to spot. they're pretty flexible and will do almost anything.

    they are extremely physically tough usually. they can take a lot of abuse to their bodies and not show it.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Also, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but: almost all the ESTps that I've become friends with, and the two that I've been involved with romantically, have actually approached ME as opposed to the other way around. I didn't realise they were ESTp until after the first encounter and had time to reflect on what just happened. They will seem like the most unassuming, normal people. "THAT was the infamous ESTp? Wow."
    Do you think there's a gender effect here? I've often thought of how gender/orientation affects personality type. I imagine it's a pretty strong/important influence, yet there's little or no discussion about it in most personality theory. The little I've seen is here on the 16types descriptions of erotic attitudes (and so poorly translated as to make it WTF?).

    I've never been content waiting to be approached. Perhaps it's impatience or unwillingness to proceed through the various steps. Some kind of urgency grips me, like I need to see progress. I see something I want and immediately start ruminating what subtle steps to take to move the situation forward (albeit, with lots of waiting for Fate to intervene). I often push myself to be the initiator, but am never really comfortable with the role. When/if the situation settles into an actual bond -- a well-established, effortless back-and-forth contact, I'm most at ease.
    FWIW, I'm a dude. I do think gender plays a role, but any generalizations tend to dissolve on an individual-by-individual basis. I've never actually waited to be approached by anyone. That would be a serious waste of time. It just happened that some of the people at the parties/clubs/classes/theatres I was at approached me, and some of them happened to be ESTp. And it also happened that I approached some of the people in those places, and most of them turn out not to be ESTp, lol. I've never really been tied to a specific role in a relationship. There's a time for all things, so if one day I should be the leader and another the follower it's alright by me.

    If you find yourself ruminating about the steps you need to take to get something... chances are you're overthinking it and will just end up psyching yourself out. At least that's what happens to me. Best thing to do if you see a person you want to talk to is "just do it" (Se. Gotta love it.) and go up to the person and start a conversation. More often then not, the pieces just fall into place naturally without any forethought.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    So Baby, how did those relationships with SLEs go? Were you terribly upset when you broke up? I mean, I get the feeling that Duality is very difficult to get over, since it's so "great" and all.
    Well, the first dual relationship was really hard to get over. It was before I knew about Socionics, and I didn't know if I'd ever find someone who was so easy to get along with again. I kind of went emo for a bit and locked myself up in my room and listened to the same sad music over and over again. I'm currently still with the second ESTp. It started out pretty tentative. More than I would have expected. We saw each other like twice in a one year period, but then got together more and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    i would think they'd make good salesmen, construction workers and foremen, mobsters and other criminals (unfortunately, but not all estp's by any means), you might see them in the stock market/financial world too
    True. Also, in high school, a lot of ESTps tend to be sort of class clowns and possibly delinquents, unfortunately. Not all... not even the majority even, but some really noticeable ones do.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    FWIW, I'm a dude.
    Yes, I've actually picked that up. I just veered into the gender concept without assuming you'd think I'd misidentified your gender. See... stereotypes already at work -- you were concerned that on the basis of you pointing out you were the approachee meant I'd think you were female. :wink:

    If you find yourself ruminating about the steps you need to take to get something... chances are you're overthinking it and will just end up psyching yourself out. At least that's what happens to me. Best thing to do if you see a person you want to talk to is "just do it" (Se. Gotta love it.) and go up to the person and start a conversation. More often then not, the pieces just fall into place naturally without any forethought.
    Yes. Wouldn't it be great if I could just *talk* to someone I am attracted to without overthinking it while feeling entirely flooded by the fear of coming off like a simpering fool...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    So Baby, how did those relationships with SLEs go? Were you terribly upset when you broke up? I mean, I get the feeling that Duality is very difficult to get over, since it's so "great" and all.
    Well, the first dual relationship was really hard to get over. It was before I knew about Socionics, and I didn't know if I'd ever find someone who was so easy to get along with again. I kind of went emo for a bit and locked myself up in my room and listened to the same sad music over and over again.
    I still think often of the last really significant ESTp I cared for -- we don't speak anymore.

    True. Also, in high school, a lot of ESTps tend to be sort of class clowns and possibly delinquents, unfortunately. Not all... not even the majority even, but some really noticeable ones do.
    I've found some were "nonentities" also -- ugly ducklings that eventually grew into their smooth-talking persona grata long after high school. Usually, they're still shaded by that early experience and never can really *trust* any attention they get now. Nor do they seem to feel they ever deserve it. Like they're driven to have so many admirers to fill a endless void.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
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    Ah. So true about that last bit regarding the ugly duckling, growing into their persona and then never trusting attention yet doing so much to garner it, almost to the point of being seen as fake. I knew one SLE exactly like that. Eh. I never talk to him anymore either, it was such a bad break-up. This is why my faith in supposed Duality has been dropping. If it is so good, why does it end? And end on such bad terms? I know it seems like a very stupid question, given that individual differences must be taken into account, not everything is perfectly ordered to cater to what Socionics says it should be...

    And yet, I still wonder.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Ah. So true about that last bit regarding the ugly duckling, growing into their persona and then never trusting attention yet doing so much to garner it, almost to the point of being seen as fake. I knew one SLE exactly like that. Eh. I never talk to him anymore either, it was such a bad break-up. This is why my faith in supposed Duality has been dropping. If it is so good, why does it end? And end on such bad terms? I know it seems like a very stupid question, given that individual differences must be taken into account, not everything is perfectly ordered to cater to what Socionics says it should be...
    I think it's a very GOOD question, damnit. And I'd like to know who's positing all these blissful, conflict-free, soulmate dual relationships!! Maybe in the Socionics laboratory petri dish, but reality? Who're ya kidding anyway? I demand a refund! If my dual doesn't fall madly and desperately in love with my copious complementary charms, what's the point!!??!



    But seriously... wha gives?
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    FWIW, I'm a dude.
    Yes, I've actually picked that up. I just veered into the gender concept without assuming you'd think I'd misidentified your gender. See... stereotypes already at work -- you were concerned that on the basis of you pointing out you were the approachee meant I'd think you were female. :wink:
    Oh Sorry. Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Yes. Wouldn't it be great if I could just *talk* to someone I am attracted to without overthinking it feeling entirely flooded by the fear of coming off like a simpering fool...?
    Yeah, you'll be nervous. And you're going to feel self-conscious and awkward and possibly beat yourself up a little. That's all to be expected. I can feel my heart racing just thinking about it. For me, it's been a case of mind over matter. I was terribly shy growing up... like debilitatingly so. What I think now is, if you act as if you aren't nervous, everything else will follow. The nerves will be there in the beginning, no matter what, and no matter how much you think about it. I try and find the right moment sometimes, but if I overthink, I tend to psyche myself out and never get anywhere. The only times where I've been able to break out and make contact have been when I just shut my mind up, act now, and worry about the consequences later, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I still think often of the last really significant ESTp I cared for -- we don't speak anymore.
    That's tough. I was friends with my first ESTp for a while after we broke up but there was just this distance between us that was disconcerting and so we went our separate ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I've found some were "nonentities" also -- ugly ducklings that eventually grew into their smooth-talking persona grata long after high schol. Usually, they're still shaded by that early experience and never can really *trust* any attention they get now. Nor do they seem to feel they ever deserve it. Like they're driven to have so many admirers to fill a endless void.
    I've noticed this void in a few ESTps, but most of them always seemed to have had that smooth-talking persona thing in high school, yet at the same time give off the "loner" vibe. They have a close group of friends, but then outside of that is everyone else who they seem to see as "customers" they need to schlep their rap with to get things done in the short-term.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Ah. So true about that last bit regarding the ugly duckling, growing into their persona and then never trusting attention yet doing so much to garner it, almost to the point of being seen as fake. I knew one SLE exactly like that. Eh. I never talk to him anymore either, it was such a bad break-up. This is why my faith in supposed Duality has been dropping. If it is so good, why does it end? And end on such bad terms? I know it seems like a very stupid question, given that individual differences must be taken into account, not everything is perfectly ordered to cater to what Socionics says it should be...

    And yet, I still wonder.
    SL, you are young. It's natural for people to break up while young. And intertype relations is not the only barometer for judging whether something will last or not. There is world view, interests, goals and many other things that come into play. Finding these things in common is very important because even if you are compatible personality wise, if the two of you are moving in different directions, then it can be very hard to stay together. Duality works because when you work together towards a "common" goal, your strengths and weaknesses complement each other.
    Yes.

    Also, sometimes people can just be assholes.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Yes. Wouldn't it be great if I could just *talk* to someone I am attracted to without overthinking it feeling entirely flooded by the fear of coming off like a simpering fool...?
    Yeah, you'll be nervous. And you're going to feel self-conscious and awkward and possibly beat yourself up a little. That's all to be expected. I can feel my heart racing just thinking about it. For me, it's been a case of mind over matter. I was terribly shy growing up... like debilitatingly so. What I think now is, if you act as if you aren't nervous, everything else will follow. The nerves will be there in the beginning, no matter what, and no matter how much you think about it. I try and find the right moment sometimes, but if I overthink, I tend to psyche myself out and never get anywhere. The only times where I've been able to break out and make contact have been when I just shut my mind up, act now, and worry about the consequences later, lol.
    Weird moment. Just as I am reading your post here, I'm listening to the Snow Patrol song "Same" and I hear the lyrics "Treat it as a test, baby, please". Kinda strange feeling there.

    What really gets me is that it never gets easier. I never habituate to that feeling of fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I've found some were "nonentities" also -- ugly ducklings that eventually grew into their smooth-talking persona grata long after high schol. Usually, they're still shaded by that early experience and never can really *trust* any attention they get now. Nor do they seem to feel they ever deserve it. Like they're driven to have so many admirers to fill a endless void.
    I've noticed this void in a few ESTps, but most of them always seemed to have had that smooth-talking persona thing in high school, yet at the same time give off the "loner" vibe. They have a close group of friends, but then outside of that is everyone else who they seem to see as "customers" they need to schlep their rap with to get things done in the short-term.
    Loner vibe, check. And the deliquent thing too. I also pick up the sense that they also may eventually lose touch with whoever they "really" are. Like you want to find out what's underneath and they panic.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Weird moment. Just as I am reading your post here, I'm listening to the Snow Patrol song "Same" and I hear the lyrics "Treat it as a test, baby, please". Kinda strange feeling there.

    What really gets me is that it never gets easier. I never habituate to that feeling of fear.
    Weird.

    I actually think it does get easier. If I compare where I was five years ago to where I am now, I've come a long way. Granted I started out not really being able to talk to anyone (much less someone I'm attracted to) so any progress is good progress. Still, I do feel a lot more comfortable just setting asside my doomsday-thoughts and putting myself out there in a way I couldn't really fathom back when I'd go hide in social situations, lol.

    And plus You're INFp. The charming type. Trust in your Ni/Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I've found some were "nonentities" also -- ugly ducklings that eventually grew into their smooth-talking persona grata long after high schol. Usually, they're still shaded by that early experience and never can really *trust* any attention they get now. Nor do they seem to feel they ever deserve it. Like they're driven to have so many admirers to fill a endless void.
    I've noticed this void in a few ESTps, but most of them always seemed to have had that smooth-talking persona thing in high school, yet at the same time give off the "loner" vibe. They have a close group of friends, but then outside of that is everyone else who they seem to see as "customers" they need to schlep their rap with to get things done in the short-term.
    Loner vibe, check. And the deliquent thing too. I also pick up the sense that they also may eventually lose touch with whoever they "really" are. Like you want to find out what's underneath and they panic.
    Fi PoLR... ILE's have this too.. but we deal with it differently.
    Yeah, I've definitely seen this front they build up. INFps are in a pretty good position to break that shell, I think. If you can get with them alone for a while, their natural self emerges and they can be pretty playful. It actually is the same way with INFps sometimes, oddly enough. I've seen a ESTp turn a depressed, bitter, existentialist INFp into a giggly, witty pile of Fe.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Ah. So true about that last bit regarding the ugly duckling, growing into their persona and then never trusting attention yet doing so much to garner it, almost to the point of being seen as fake. I knew one SLE exactly like that. Eh. I never talk to him anymore either, it was such a bad break-up. This is why my faith in supposed Duality has been dropping. If it is so good, why does it end? And end on such bad terms? I know it seems like a very stupid question, given that individual differences must be taken into account, not everything is perfectly ordered to cater to what Socionics says it should be...

    And yet, I still wonder.
    Duality is of the functions. Only in so far as the functions approach reality, does reality approach duality.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby

    And plus You're INFp. The charming type. Trust in your Ni/Fe.
    That's a really *good* point. We are pretty darn charming (when we're not moping about), aren't we...? :wink:

    Yeah, I've definitely seen this front they build up. INFps are in a pretty good position to break that shell, I think. If you can get with them alone for a while, their natural self emerges and they can be pretty playful. It actually is the same way with INFps sometimes, oddly enough. I've seen a ESTp turn a depressed, bitter, existentialist INFp into a giggly, witty pile of Fe.
    I think INFps are pretty good at seeing through superficiality, and ultimately desire to get below to the soft ticklish underbelly. I imagine that's a bit scary from the pov of types that aren't used to mucking about so much in their own psyches.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

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