Extraverted sensing Se hidden agenda of LIEs-ENTjs

[Joy]

This thread is intended to 1.) be a brainstorming session for ENTjs or people who know ENTjs well, and 2.) clear up certain misconceptions that some people seem to have about how a Se Hidden Agenda manifests itself.

Here's what I have so far:

- Desire to be independent or financially free.
- Tendency to be too confident or overly optimistic at times, thinking they will be able to put more effort into a project than they actually can, or underestimating the amount of effort that it will require to complete an objective.
- Needing a push to complete smaller tasks, or things they see as being tedious. ENTjs are great strategists, but need help with managing day to day tasks which they don't have the patience for or interest in. ENTjs are very certain that things will work out as they want them to in the long term, but sometimes need to be reminded that they have to take care of the smaller steps in order to get there, and that they should hurry up in doing so.
- Sometimes ENTjs can use the momentum of their initial enthusiasm to carry them through to reaching their goals, but without a Se creative type there to help them be realistic about the amount of energy they should be putting into a project, they push themselves too hard and then end up crashing afterwards. (Se creative types are good at "budgeting" energy expenditure.)
- Respecting people who are strong and capable of taking decisive action (provided they don't violate Fi), and being energized by such people. Having admiration for people who make difficult things look easy.

[Joy]

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

[aka-kitsune]

All of what you have listed applies to my personal experiences with an ENTj friend.

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

I found my friend to be an amazing listener who never judged me for my flaws. I don't know if he ever truly *sympathized* though. And I did get the impression he thought that my tendency to ruminate over things, trying to endlessly analyze what it all meant was just getting in the way of actually doing something. Impatient with my impracticality.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

I think they have a tendency to think that people should help themselves - 'I am my own responsibility' etc. .

[Joy]

All of what you have listed applies to my personal experiences with an ENTj friend.

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

I found my friend to be an amazing listener who never judged me for my flaws.

Yeah, I think it's typical for them to be like that, but after hearing about it and making suggestions (or trying to ask questions that will lead to resolution) for a while they tend to lose their patience.

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

I think they have a tendency to think that people should help themselves - 'I am my own responsibility' etc. .

Yeah. Life is what you make it and whatnot. I just don't know if it's related to their Se hidden agenda, quadra values in general, or something else.

[Slacker]

I have no idea what of my mom is her Se hidden agenda. She tells me she thinks my husband is too controlling, which I find HILARIOUS because I always found her and my dad to be a bit controlling. She just doesn't like him and looks for things to complain about.

Hmm. She likes to be in charge of things and make decisions. Like a family matriarch.

She always said that her greatest goal for us growing up was that we become independent. And I am not particularly independent. That probably drives her crazy.

She always worked when we were kids. She says she had to be financially independent.

She did give me one of the best pieces of advice I've ever had. I was in my early to mid 20s and working two jobs that paid squat. I was working constantly and couldn't even afford groceries, so I'd get sick, and I didn't have health insurance, so I'd end up having doctor's bills. It was bad. Then my mom said, "You need to quit those two jobs and find one job that has health insurance and pays better." I said I didn't think I'd be able to but she told me I would and started clipping help wanted ads. Guess what? I found a job that paid a TON more than I'd been making in the two jobs combined and had pretty darn good insurance. So she was right, and my life really started turning around based on that. So I think she gives me way too much unsolicited advice, and I hate that, but I have to give credit where it's due and say sometimes she's right on the money.

[Ezra]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

[Expat]

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

They can appear to others as undisciplined in short-term things, when they are actually disciplined in long-term things.

[Joy]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

Undisciplined when it comes to keeping up with physical routines, like a consistent exercise regiment, diet, or chores. It's not uncommon for ENTjs to wear the same clothes for more than one day, too. That sort of thing.

[Gilly]

On that last bit, you once said something else about Se types making things "look easy." I don't get it.

[Joy]

Se types see things as done or not done. If they think something needs to be done and it's not, they just do it. They don't think about it too much or build it up in their heads. Stratiyevskaya's description of ESFps mentions that they often wonder why people make stuff out to be difficult when they're actually easy. They recognize that others make things harder than they have to be. Whether Se types realize it or not, the reason why it's easy for them to do things is because regardless of how much effort or time it will require to accomplish something, it can only be as difficult as they believe it to be.

Ni types see processes. They think about each step involved in doing the task, from trying to decide if they should do it to walking about from it when it's completed. They also have a good sense of when it needs to be started in order to finish it at the optimum time, so they often put things off until they actually need to be done. Although it comes naturally to them to juggle many approaching tasks and events in their minds, the thought processes involved in doing so makes them sort of build stuff up in their minds until it seems like a large, complex project. Seeing all of the steps play out at the same time in their minds makes them focus on the amount of effort that will be required, which makes it seem like more effort than it would to a Se type, who understands that there are different actions required to complete a project but just takes it one step at a time.

[FDG]

On that last bit, you once said something else about Se types making things "look easy." I don't get it.

Me neither, really.

[Ezra]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

Undisciplined when it comes to keeping up with physical routines, like a consistent exercise regiment, diet, or chores. It's not uncommon for ENTjs to wear the same clothes for more than one day, too. That sort of thing.

Do you reckon you could apply the same to an INTj - they too are crap at that kind of stuff?

[Joy]

they're better at it than ENTjs, but most intuitive types aren't going to be great when it comes to that sort of thing

[aka-kitsune]

they're better at it than ENTjs, but most intuitive types aren't going to be great when it comes to that sort of thing

When you say "most intuitive types", are you including all N types in the socion in this?

[Ezra]

See, I have a friend who I've talked about before, and he's either LSI or LII; I can't tell. He's actually very good at keeping up a work out and running routine daily. He's also a healthy eater and is a teetotaller. At the same time, he doesn't really have the forcefulness of the Se in the LSI, and is very open-minded and objective like an LII. In fact, the16types LII description looks like it was written for him. He does relate to LSI, but SO much more to LII description-wise. He also chose followed by as his functions.

[Joy]

Yes, most people who are xNxx. Obviously there are exceptions to this though.

[Joy]

See, I have a friend who I've talked about before, and he's either LSI or LII; I can't tell. He's actually very good at keeping up a work out and running routine daily. He's also a healthy eater and is a teetotaller. At the same time, he doesn't really have the forcefulness of the Se in the LSI, and is very open-minded and objective like an LII. In fact, the16types LII description looks like it was written for him. He does relate to LSI, but SO much more to LII description-wise. He also chose followed by as his functions.

He's probably INTj. INTjs can be pretty good about that kind of thing.

[aka-kitsune]

Yes, most people who are xNxx. Obviously there are exceptions to this though.

I do agree, actually. Although I kinda pride myself on not wearing the same clothes I wore yesterday.

[Khamelion]

Do you think ENTjs tend to expect others to be tough and have trouble sympathizing with those they see as being able to get out of a bad situation if they'd only use a bit of Se?

[FDG]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

Undisciplined when it comes to keeping up with physical routines, like a consistent exercise regiment, diet, or chores. It's not uncommon for ENTjs to wear the same clothes for more than one day, too. That sort of thing.

Agree on the second, strongly disagree on the first in regard to most ENTjs I've known IRL. There seems to be a split, either they are very disciplined about it, or can't care less.

P.s. ENTj don't tend to see weak people as inferior. Remember that Fi is their dual-seeking function, and the nature of Fi makes it so that a certain degree of weakness is implied. If you care about the impact of your actions on relationships, naturally you have to be careful in taking action. That's also the reason why Fi's are said not to like "intellectual initiative" in the sense of arguments that are not closely tied to ethics.

[Joy]

the nature of Fi makes it so that a certain degree of weakness is implied.

I strongly urge you to consider what this statement may suggest about your quadra values.

[FDG]

the nature of Fi makes it so that a certain degree of weakness is implied.

I strongly urge you to consider what this statement may suggest about your quadra values.

Urgh. You don't understand what I'm talking about. That weakness is NOT a bad thing.

Ever seen an INFj not being able to asser herself?
Ever seen an ISFj crumbling because she's taking on too many things?
Ever seen an INFj beating herself up over not having reached absolutely perfect standards?
Ever seen an ISFj beating herself up over not being able to patch a relationship?
Ever read anything about smilingeyes where he accurately describes Te-Fi duality as being: Te gives protection and public face, Fi gives the content and the motivation?
Maybe you should acquire more knowledge before making baseless statements?


That's what I'm talking about, and I find that to be very attractive, actually.

As usual, you enjoy twisting my statements *edited at request*

[Joy]

Right, I have a question.

Are LIEs generally more disciplined or undisciplined? Because I've read that they're both. What do most people agree that they are?

Undisciplined when it comes to keeping up with physical routines, like a consistent exercise regiment, diet, or chores. It's not uncommon for ENTjs to wear the same clothes for more than one day, too. That sort of thing.

Agree on the second, strongly disagree on the first in regard to most ENTjs I've known IRL. There seems to be a split, either they are very disciplined about it, or can't care less.

Yeah, when people try to address the weaknesses related to their PoLR they tend to go overboard with it. There's no middle ground. Not in the long term anyways.

P.s. ENTj don't tend to see weak people as inferior.

Inferior? No. However, they eventually become impatient or frustrated when someone just will not even try to implement an effective plan to reach a solution to their situation (Te) but keep coming back again and again whining about how shitty they feel (Fe), as if they just want to bitch about it forever and don't even want things to get better.

Kelly, the type of thing I'm talking about here is very different from your situation. I've never seen the type of behavior I'm describing here in you.

[FDG]

Inferior? No. However, they eventually become impatient or frustrated when someone just will not even try to implement an effective plan to reach a solution to their situation (Te) but keep coming back again and again whining about how shitty they feel (Fe), as if they just want to bitch about it forever and don't even want things to get better.

There's also such a thing as "Do it for the other". Actually, usually ISFjs are more impatient towards that (simply because Te is their suggestive functions). Just as much as an ENTj is impatient towards knowing his status in a relationship.

[Joy]

I don't think we're talking about the same things here. Let's not derail this thread please.

[Ezra]

P.s. ENTj don't tend to see weak people as inferior. Remember that Fi is their dual-seeking function, and the nature of Fi makes it so that a certain degree of weakness is implied. If you care about the impact of your actions on relationships, naturally you have to be careful in taking action. That's also the reason why Fi's are said not to like "intellectual initiative" in the sense of arguments that are not closely tied to ethics.

Do they see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness?

[FDG]

P.s. ENTj don't tend to see weak people as inferior. Remember that Fi is their dual-seeking function, and the nature of Fi makes it so that a certain degree of weakness is implied. If you care about the impact of your actions on relationships, naturally you have to be careful in taking action. That's also the reason why Fi's are said not to like "intellectual initiative" in the sense of arguments that are not closely tied to ethics.

Do they see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness?

I honestly think that weak people should be treated with more respect than stronger people.

[Ezra]

P.s. ENTj don't tend to see weak people as inferior. Remember that Fi is their dual-seeking function, and the nature of Fi makes it so that a certain degree of weakness is implied. If you care about the impact of your actions on relationships, naturally you have to be careful in taking action. That's also the reason why Fi's are said not to like "intellectual initiative" in the sense of arguments that are not closely tied to ethics.

Do they see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness?

I honestly think that weak people should be treated with more respect than stronger people.

That's not what I asked. I asked if LIEs see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness.

The reason is, I want to know how close to 8s they are. 8s will respect weakness only if they understand the reasons for that weakness, and see that said weak person cannot help it, or is doing everything in their power to fight against it. For example, I have immense respect for that legless, armless women who has had raised a child and has had a statue dedicated to her in London. I do not, however, have respect for Kleon, who fleed from battle in 422 and died doing so.

[uninspired]

That's not what I asked. I asked if LIEs see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness.

I think ENTjs have a problem with weakness if the so-called "weak" person is 1) unaware of their weakness, and 2) unconcerned with improving it. ENTjs, IMO, respect people who are self-aware and earnestly endeavor to make things better. Complacency, apathy, and frivolity seems to bother them the most. I think my ENTj dad has put up with me and my issues for so long because he realizes that I'm a very intense, committed person at the core, and that I'm always seeking improvement. If I were content with stagnation, he would be very troubled.

As for Joy's initial question about ENTjs and their PoLR, it can manifest itself in any number of ways. Here are a few examples of issues involving ENTjs I know:

1) My Dad: very conscientious about his exercise routine and his overall health, but only after many years of trial and error. He sees it as critical to his mental well-being and personal goals. Also, he's had to deal with the specter of severe illness (heart disease, panic attacks, and melanoma) hindering his personal progress, so I know that he, like anyone else, doesn't want his long-term goals to be sidelined by health issues. As for other issues, my goofy Dad has had several car problems - he got a ticket last month for driving the wrong way down a one-way street, lol. Also, he drove a car with a broken spedometer for the longest time and finally had to get a new one because he got two traffic tickets. Though I laugh about things like this, I really worry about my father and his driving .
As for his physical appearance, he's very fit and cleans up very nicely for his job, but doesn't seem to care what he looks like in his free time. He usually looks a bit disheveled, but in a very endearing way.

2) Close friend #1: very athletic and active, yet used drugs recreationally (nothing harder than marijuana, though) and had frequent, unprotected sex. She was quite reckless because she didn't seem to realize that she, as a human being, was inherently vulnerable and that the things she read about in health class could actually happen to her. She seemed to look only at the spiritual, existential aspects of life as opposed to the concrete, mundane aspects of it. She wasn't aware of her body until she had a health issue that MADE her aware of it, forcing her to change her lifestyle.

3) Friend #2: a 23 year-old alcoholic. Apparently he's quite slovenly as well. It's tragic, because he's an incredibly smart person with a great career. Yet because he's so smart and so self-aware, I have faith that he will address his problem and recover. I just hope he can find a good support group to do it with, because he goes to bars largely to socialize with others, and not being able to do that could leave a very big void in his life.

So yeah, I get the sense that ENTjs are just so focused on their long-term goals, internal thoughts, and tasks to be completed that they really don't give a darn about their bodies and their physical surroundings. It probably seems unimportant in their scheme of values.
Conversely, some look to substances to alleviate certain fears/neuroses (as all types do) and don't know when to stop.
I know this is somewhat tangential, but I have an ENFj friend (who's also an alcoholic, sadly) who abuses the daylights out of her body. She doesn't seem to care, though, and believes she'll that alcohol will only expedite the onset of death, which we will all face (I've tried and tried to break her out of this destructive thought pattern, but to no avail). She doesn't realize the actual physical toll it will take on her, though, in the form of dependency, liver disease, dementia, depression/anxiety, jaundice, etc. So yeah, not understanding/appreciating the actual physical effects of something and only looking at the metaphysical effects of it may be a manifestation of PoLR.

[implied]

1) My Dad: very conscientious about his exercise routine and his overall health, but only after many years of trial and error. He sees it as critical to his mental well-being and personal goals. Also, he's had to deal with the specter of severe illness (heart disease, panic attacks, and melanoma) hindering his personal progress, so I know that he, like anyone else, doesn't want his long-term goals to be sidelined by health issues. As for other Introverted Sensing issues, my goofy Dad has had several car problems - he got a ticket last month for driving the wrong way down a one-way street, lol. Also, he drove a car with a broken spedometer for the longest time and finally had to get a new one because he got two traffic tickets. Though I laugh about things like this, I really worry about my father and his driving Sad.
As for his physical appearance, he's very fit and cleans up very nicely for his job, but doesn't seem to care what he looks like in his free time. He usually looks a bit disheveled, but in a very endearing way.

jesus christ. no wonder ISFjs are nervous.

[Ezra]

So yeah, I get the sense that ENTjs are just so focused on their long-term goals, internal thoughts, and tasks to be completed that they really don't give a darn about their bodies and their physical surroundings. It probably seems unimportant in their scheme of values.

That's the flaw in the LIE. They don't realise, like your dad, that maintaining a healthy state of mind and body is important. Also, surroundings effect people. LIEs appear to be immune to this for some reason. I think I can most of the time. I've recently started working out again after two months off, mainly because I have concern for my health. As for my surroundings, I will often have blitz sessions where I just empty a room and rearrange everything, but when a room is a mess, and I haven't said to myself 'right, Ez, we're clearing this room', it remains a shithole. At these points I'm basically being a lazy bastard.

[Joy]

So yeah, I get the sense that ENTjs are just so focused on their long-term goals, internal thoughts, and tasks to be completed that they really don't give a darn about their bodies and their physical surroundings. It probably seems unimportant in their scheme of values.

That's the flaw in the LIE. They don't realise, like your dad, that maintaining a healthy state of mind and body is important. Also, surroundings effect people. LIEs appear to be immune to this for some reason.

Yep. They are happy when their surroundings are comfortable but don't really notice when they're not.

[Joy]

That's not what I asked. I asked if LIEs see weak people as inferior even if they understand the reason for the weak person's weakness.

I think ENTjs have a problem with weakness if the so-called "weak" person is 1) unaware of their weakness, and 2) unconcerned with improving it. ENTjs, IMO, respect people who are self-aware and earnestly endeavor to make things better. Complacency, apathy, and frivolity seems to bother them the most. I think my ENTj dad has put up with me and my issues for so long because he realizes that I'm a very intense, committed person at the core, and that I'm always seeking improvement. If I were content with stagnation, he would be very troubled.

As for Joy's initial question about ENTjs and their PoLR, it can manifest itself in any number of ways. Here are a few examples of issues involving ENTjs I know:

1) My Dad: very conscientious about his exercise routine and his overall health, but only after many years of trial and error. He sees it as critical to his mental well-being and personal goals. Also, he's had to deal with the specter of severe illness (heart disease, panic attacks, and melanoma) hindering his personal progress, so I know that he, like anyone else, doesn't want his long-term goals to be sidelined by health issues. As for other issues, my goofy Dad has had several car problems - he got a ticket last month for driving the wrong way down a one-way street, lol. Also, he drove a car with a broken spedometer for the longest time and finally had to get a new one because he got two traffic tickets. Though I laugh about things like this, I really worry about my father and his driving .
As for his physical appearance, he's very fit and cleans up very nicely for his job, but doesn't seem to care what he looks like in his free time. He usually looks a bit disheveled, but in a very endearing way.

2) Close friend #1: very athletic and active, yet used drugs recreationally (nothing harder than marijuana, though) and had frequent, unprotected sex. She was quite reckless because she didn't seem to realize that she, as a human being, was inherently vulnerable and that the things she read about in health class could actually happen to her. She seemed to look only at the spiritual, existential aspects of life as opposed to the concrete, mundane aspects of it. She wasn't aware of her body until she had a health issue that MADE her aware of it, forcing her to change her lifestyle.

3) Friend #2: a 23 year-old alcoholic. Apparently he's quite slovenly as well. It's tragic, because he's an incredibly smart person with a great career. Yet because he's so smart and so self-aware, I have faith that he will address his problem and recover. I just hope he can find a good support group to do it with, because he goes to bars largely to socialize with others, and not being able to do that could leave a very big void in his life.

So yeah, I get the sense that ENTjs are just so focused on their long-term goals, internal thoughts, and tasks to be completed that they really don't give a darn about their bodies and their physical surroundings. It probably seems unimportant in their scheme of values.
Conversely, some look to substances to alleviate certain fears/neuroses (as all types do) and don't know when to stop.
I know this is somewhat tangential, but I have an ENFj friend (who's also an alcoholic, sadly) who abuses the daylights out of her body. She doesn't seem to care, though, and believes she'll that alcohol will only expedite the onset of death, which we will all face (I've tried and tried to break her out of this destructive thought pattern, but to no avail). She doesn't realize the actual physical toll it will take on her, though, in the form of dependency, liver disease, dementia, depression/anxiety, jaundice, etc. So yeah, not understanding/appreciating the actual physical effects of something and only looking at the metaphysical effects of it may be a manifestation of PoLR.

You seem to understand ENTjs better than most. :-)

Do you relate to the initial post in this thread (in your experiences with your dad I mean)? This is regarding the Se Hidden Agenda in ENTjs.

This thread is intended to 1.) be a brainstorming session for ENTjs or people who know ENTjs well, and 2.) clear up certain misconceptions that some people seem to have about how a Se Hidden Agenda manifests itself.

Here's what I have so far:

- Desire to be independent or financially free.
- Tendency to be too confident or overly optimistic at times, thinking they will be able to put more effort into a project than they actually can, or underestimating the amount of effort that it will require to complete an objective.
- Needing a push to complete smaller tasks, or things they see as being tedious. ENTjs are great strategists, but need help with managing day to day tasks which they don't have the patience for or interest in. ENTjs are very certain that things will work out as they want them to in the long term, but sometimes need to be reminded that they have to take care of the smaller steps in order to get there, and that they should hurry up in doing so.
- Sometimes ENTjs can use the momentum of their initial enthusiasm to carry them through to reaching their goals, but without a Se creative type there to help them be realistic about the amount of energy they should be putting into a project, they push themselves too hard and then end up crashing afterwards. (Se creative types are good at "budgeting" energy expenditure.)
- Respecting people who are strong and capable of taking decisive action (provided they don't violate Fi), and being energized by such people. Having admiration for people who make difficult things look easy.

[Joy]

I think ENTjs have a problem with weakness if the so-called "weak" person is 1) unaware of their weakness, and 2) unconcerned with improving it. ENTjs, IMO, respect people who are self-aware and earnestly endeavor to make things better. Complacency, apathy, and frivolity seems to bother them the most.

Ironically, it's the victim mentality that I think ENTjs have the least patience with.

[uninspired]

-

Desire to be independent or financially free.

Yes, most certainly. It's critical to both his everyday needs and his self-identity. When my Dad's firm went bankrupt (he's a lawyer), he didn't have a permanent job for a few months, but was always working (this was several years ago and everything's fine now). He could have asked his parents for financial help, but that never even crossed his mind.
-

Tendency to be too confident or overly optimistic at times, thinking they will be able to put more effort into a project than they actually can, or underestimating the amount of effort that it will require to complete an objective.

My dad's newest motto is "learned optimism," which is changing your past negative attitudes into positive, motivational, self-confident attitudes. Good theory, but he takes it to extremes and interprets every sign of concern that I present to him as fear and pessimism. He needs some ISFj realism to balance him out.
-

Needing a push to complete smaller tasks, or things they see as being tedious. ENTjs are great strategists, but need help with managing day to day tasks which they don't have the patience for or interest in. ENTjs are very certain that things will work out as they want them to in the long term, but sometimes need to be reminded that they have to take care of the smaller steps in order to get there, and that they should hurry up in doing so.

My dad can be a bit of a procrastinator. He's usually late to non-work functions, doesn't pay his bills until the last minute (but ALWAYS pays them), and so on. But if I need something done, like straightening out an urgent billing issue, he wastes no time.
-

Sometimes ENTjs can use the momentum of their initial enthusiasm to carry them through to reaching their goals, but without a Se creative type there to help them be realistic about the amount of energy they should be putting into a project, they push themselves too hard and then end up crashing afterwards. (Se creative types are good at "budgeting" energy expenditure.)

My one ENTj friend burned out recently; single mom trying to balance work and marriage. She's okay now, but she was taking on much more than she could handle.
-

Respecting people who are strong and capable of taking decisive action (provided they don't violate Fi), and being energized by such people. Having admiration for people who make difficult things look easy.

Yes. He respects people who are positive, conscientious, thoughtful, and motivated. His hero is Mike Krzyzewski, the famous Duke basketball coach.

Ironically, it's the victim mentality that I think ENTjs have the least patience with.

Yeah, I can definitely see that. That was a major sticking point in my parents' divorce (my Mom's INFp). He wanted someone more independent and self-reliant, and she wanted someone to take care of her. I refuse to say that her behavior is typical of all INFps, though, because growing up around her and seeing how poorly she handled things has made me very conscious of how I DON'T want to be when I get older. I'm determined to work and be independent. She's a wonderful and loving lady, but she could have worked harder than she did and everybody knew it.

[Ezra]

Do you know what Etype he is, uninspired?

[FDG]

Interesting post, uninspired. I've always been health conscious since I was 13, and I haven't had much problems in immediatly identifying which exercise routine was best for my health. This definitely takes away from the possibility of me being ENTj, if we consider it to be a key trait of the type.

[Joy]

Thank you, uninspired. You have a very good understanding of ENTjs.

[implied]

Do you know what Etype he is, implied?

maybe you were directing that @ uninspired (i also have an ENTj dad.) i'm fairly certain he's the same e-type as expat, an 8w9.