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Thread: "Pretentious"

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    Default "Pretentious"

    Which types are more likely to be pretentious, and which types are more likely to hate pretentiousness?
    LSI

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    ack

    We just talked about this a bit in Baby's type thread. My opinion is that one type will see a different type as pretentious based on them valuing different things. So any type can be seen as pretentious depending on who is seeing it. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Very sorry about that... the one time I don't search...

    I'm not sure I can buy pretentiousness being that subjective... I'm pretty sure there are people around that would seem pretentious to any type, but I noticed somebody has no problem with it, and somebody just can't stand it. Would you say this tolerance is somewhat type dependant?
    LSI

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    seems like everybody is pretentious about something...like i'm pretentious about not being pretentious lol.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
    Very sorry about that... the one time I don't search...

    I'm not sure I can buy pretentiousness being that subjective... I'm pretty sure there are people around that would seem pretentious to any type, but I noticed somebody has no problem with it, and somebody just can't stand it. Would you say this tolerance is somewhat type dependant?
    One pattern I have noticed is that supervisees might see supervisors as pretentious.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I have been called pretentious by people who don't like me.
    EII

    I'll tell you what
    there is plenty wrong with me
    but I fixed up a few old buildings
    and I've planted a few trees.

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    I was going to post a detailed reply, but then I decided that the thread wasn't really worthy of my time.
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    EIEs will be most pretentious. I know of one, although he could well be ESE. They are most likely to put an act on. They correlate best to 3s and 2s in the Enneagram (especially 3w2s and 2w3s), which makes a lot of sense, since they are most liable to pretense. Fe provides the emotional manipulation skills, Ni and Si respectively work well with this function in second seat.

    SLEs and LSEs dislike it the most in my opinion. Probably LSEs more so, as they are said to be less diplomatic than SLEs (although I ripped the SLE diplomacy from Ganin, so trust it if you dare). There's something about Te and Ti that are very much more open. I also suspect that LSIs and SLIs are averse to pretense.

    - these functions don't like it (unless coupled with Fe).

    - do.

    - aren't that concerned.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Default Re: "Pretentious"

    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
    Which types are more likely to be pretentious, and which types are more likely to hate pretentiousness?
    EIE, SLI.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I was going to post a detailed reply, but then I decided that the thread wasn't really worthy of my time.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Default Re: "Pretentious"

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
    Which types are more likely to be pretentious, and which types are more likely to hate pretentiousness?
    EIE, SLI.
    Why EIE? They are the type most likely to be pretentious.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Winterpark is SLI. To an SLI, EIEs are pretentious. Of course they aren't to you.

    My ENTj mom finds my ISTp husband to be pretentious, but of course I don't.

    It's all in relationships, not types!
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Winterpark is SLI. To an SLI, EIEs are pretentious. Of course they aren't to you.

    My ENTj mom finds my ISTp husband to be pretentious, but of course I don't.

    It's all in relationships, not types!
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    You people need to learn to read people's replies thoroughly before you respond to them

    Obviously this is entirely unrelated to type, unless we are to speculate that the things people are likely to be pretentious about or the way in which they go about being pretentious are discretely related to functional placement/preference.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You don't really have to showboat to be "pretentious"; you can be equally pretentious by being self-centered and stubborn.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
    Very sorry about that... the one time I don't search...

    I'm not sure I can buy pretentiousness being that subjective... I'm pretty sure there are people around that would seem pretentious to any type, but I noticed somebody has no problem with it, and somebody just can't stand it. Would you say this tolerance is somewhat type dependant?
    One pattern I have noticed is that supervisees might see supervisors as pretentious.
    True for me, at least. I wouldn't say I see all ENFjs as pretentious, but..

    I wonder if ESTjs consider me pretentious. I don't know any ESTjs well enough to find out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Why EIE? They are the type most likely to be pretentious.
    That's what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    My ENTj mom finds my ISTp husband to be pretentious, but of course I don't.
    Hehe, my ENTj sister finds me pretensious as well. She thinks both me and our EIE mom are very similar in the way we can be very pretensious sometimes. And I can not for the sake of god understand what it is that she sees as "similar" (actually she says we're the "same" ). Go figure.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    i don't find gammas pretentious generally or alphas. but sometimes betas and deltas. could be the aristocracy vs democracy thing.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Winterpark is SLI. To an SLI, EIEs are pretentious. Of course they aren't to you.
    No, no, no, there was a misunderstanding. I thought he said EIEs AREN'T pretentious, when they're pretty much the epitome of it.

    My ENTj mom finds my ISTp husband to be pretentious, but of course I don't.
    How does she? I'm very curious, because I want to know what an ISTp is like. Can you give me a few quotes or something that an ISTp would most likely say?

    Also, do me a favour, someone, and tell me what types the kinds of people that kind of say "I'm not this, I'm not that" in an unpindownable way and "I just go with the flow and have fun when I can" and "I don't try to butt in at all, I simply wait until I can speak, and then do so" - the kind of people that big themselves up apparently very subtly, even though it's SO obvious and blatent; they make themselves out to be super cool role-models.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    You don't really have to showboat to be "pretentious"; you can be equally pretentious by being self-centered and stubborn.
    I disagree completely. Being stubborn and self-centred isn't the same as pretending to be something you're not. You can be entirely genuine. I hate truth-hiders and people who big themselves up, but I'm pretty stubborn and quite self-centred. I never big myself up, I just like attention and I like to talk about myself. That's not pretentious, and there's no way it can ever be perceived as being so.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    You can be a showboat and be entirely unpretentious. Likewise, you can be stubborn and self-centered and be incredibly pretentious. You can "be pretentious" about nearly anything; all it means is pretending to be something you're not.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I never big myself up
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I'm loud, dominating and often very aggressive.

    I like parties, but only once I'm at them - then the party begins.

    I can be quite the orator, and with a bit of practice, a good rhetorician.

    I rarely think I'm wrong.
    *giggles*
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I never big myself up
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I'm loud, dominating and often very aggressive.

    I like parties, but only once I'm at them - then the party begins.

    I can be quite the orator, and with a bit of practice, a good rhetorician.

    I rarely think I'm wrong.
    *giggles*
    Hahaha. Fuck, you got me there. Right, to be honest, I don't think calling myself loud, dominating or aggressive is bigging myself up. It's stating a fact. It's what I am. But the party bit, hahaha, you win. I don't know if that's entirely true, but it just so happens that if I walk into a room where I don't know anyone but a few people kind of deiify me, I love it. If I go to a party however where I don't really want to speak to anyone, I am very withdrawn. Rarely thinking I'm wrong is also not bigging myself up. Again, it's stating fact. I've recognised that I too often assume my own infallibility. It's a bad thing. But I also trust my instinct. As for the oratory and rhetoric, I was just thinking about how good it will be when I become a lawyer arguing my case. Nonetheless, I retract that statement. I'm a confident speaker, but I'm not formal like an orator, so that's bullshit.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Someone appears to be pretentious if they value something without base that you do not value.

    A Ti person seems pretentious to all those whom do not value Ti when they Ti-valuing individual values Ti just for the (apparent) sake of valuing it . Same for Se, Fi, and all the other functions.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    That's quite interesting, because with FDG, I remember that he said he thought a lot of what I wrote was pretense when I first came to the forum. That was based on my initial description.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    That is interesting. I can easily see how two different people of the same type can value different things, though, especially if it concerns the unconscious functions(Fe and Ni in both your and FDG's case.) It makes me wonder how else pretentiousness can manifest itself.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I've always thought of someone as pretentious when they spout all kinds of "knowledgeable-sounding" bullshit about something they know extremely little about in actuality. Like they're making it up as they go along. Or else they're extremely deficient in the ability to present something without the implication that others who don't agree are somehow "lesser beings'.

    Ostentation and pretension are usually found together, I find.
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    I consider someone pretentious if they spout out a bunch of facts and vocabulary to an audience that doesn't care or have the remotest chance of understanding what they're talking about. For instance somebody trying to give a lecture on socionics to a bunch of bums and crackheads in a back alley is pretentious. Also somebody who thinks that using lots of facts and big words somehow proves their intelligence and those who don't understand them's low intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    ...now if the specialist, having realized the confusion, refuses to clarify him or herself and help the nonspecialists out so they can actually learn something, maybe that is pretentious.
    that's moreso what I'm talking about. Or (obviously) if the person actually can't explain/clarify the jargon/conecpts to an ordinary person using regular day-to-day language that IMO shows a general lack of understanding on their part and therefor pretention (they were using those words and concepts just to appear as though they understood something and knew what they were talking about)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    i completely agree with the goat. although i hope you'll give someone a few "edits and additions" to explain themselves before writing them off as that sort of pretension. yeah, so this struck a personal chord of mine. i know i can get wordy sometimes..most of the time. but i do think eventually i try to get to the bottom of things in terms that make everyday sense or so i try.

    ..
    oh totally... I'll give a person all kinds of chances to explain (I know I usually can't explain shit right of the bat even when I totally understand the concepts (weed )) There comes a point though where you just know the person is making it up or fucking around because they have no idea what they were talking about in the first place.

    Then just not even taking the effort to explain, even if a person understands, because they assume the concepts are "above" the person asking for an explanation.. that's just as bad IMO

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    Am I a weird person for saying that pretension doesn't bother me? I mean I knew a looooot of pretentious guys in college that's for sure but they would really annoy everybody else but me I didn't even seem to mind them at all.

    I guess pretension does bother me somewhat if the person does have actual power over people (real power as in they can give out grades, or they're a cop, or whatever) But if it's just some random person (not that cops and teachers are higher than us but you know what I mean...) being pretentious I don't really care that much. It just doesn't seem to get me all upset like it does other people.

    To me what's worse is if you really know what you're talking about, but you still use it to be an asshole. I find pretentious people too flake-y to be of any threat even if they're trying to be mean. I hope I'm making sense here lol... it's been a long day.

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    see pretention as I described it bugs me... I stay as far away from people like that as I can once I've identified them. If I have to deal with them I make it a point to take them down.

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    I don't know if pretentiousness is type related, but maybe one's reaction to perceived pertentiousness is.

    I often hate it if I feel people are making assumptions about me, about what I mean, or what I have done or am doing. I dislike it even more if I feel people are making assumptions about what I'm making assumptions about. Sometimes I feel there should be these rules about assumption-making... assumptions are okay when we know they're assumptions. This happens mostly to me in work settings and I think it does arise out of the relationships in the heirarchical work structure--and that it's more a function of the heirarchy in that the heirarchy ends up fixing the relationships in certain ways, and fixing the modes of interaction.

    That said, I really don't want to have a problem with it. And I've been trying to figure it out. I don't need to feel this way about it. So I've been trying to find another way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I don't know if pretentiousness is type related, but maybe one's reaction to perceived pertentiousness is.

    I often hate it if I feel people are making assumptions about me, about what I mean, or what I have done or am doing. I dislike it even more if I feel people are making assumptions about what I'm making assumptions about. Sometimes I feel there should be these rules about assumption-making... assumptions are okay when we know they're assumptions. This happens mostly to me in work settings and I think it does arise out of the relationships in the heirarchical work structure--and that it's more a function of the heirarchy in that the heirarchy ends up fixing the relationships in certain ways, and fixing the modes of interaction.

    That said, I really don't want to have a problem with it. And I've been trying to figure it out. I don't need to feel this way about it. So I've been trying to find another way.
    May I ask what kind of assumptions? Maybe you just ignore certain assumptions?
    I mostly mean the imposing sort of assumptions where someone makes assumptions about what I know or don't know, what I believe or don't believe, how I feel or don't feel, what I think or don't think... without asking me. Like if someone interrupts me when I'm talking to fill in for me because they think they know what I mean or how I feel or what I want... I feel this invades my space and person. There's one co-worker I've been having this issue with in particular. It used to be worse with her, but has been gradually getting a little better. The other thing she does is yell at me from "afar" when she sees me getting up or heading to the door or something because she has some assumption in her head about what I'm doing (that usually isn't true), and this bugs me even more because I can anticipate what she'll be assuming before she even says anything. So I've been trying to manipulate that in my favor... but then I feel I'm manipulating and that I really should be more assertive about this. So then I feel guilty. And then can't decide on how I'll handle this.

    My naturally tendency is to just be very cold around her when she does things like interrupt me or try to invade and make assumptions about my feelings, etc... but that doesn't help because then she does it even more and tries to pry into my feelings even more... so I've been trying to not do that even though it's most natural for me. In the end it won't help anything, so I try to change my behavior. Part of it is her assumptions, but maybe underneath it it's more about how I feel she is trying to pry into my inner world and I didn't give her an invitation, so I don't feel she has a right to do that. I also don't feel I should have to be more expressive just to please her. And she doesn't seem to notice the distant cold-as-ice thing--it doesn't deter her, which is what it's *supposed* to do. It maybe goes back to my feelings and how I don't want to share them, so if someone tries to invade me to find them, or says things or implies things about how I feel that aren't true, then I don't feel safe and I become cold. It's not just with me... she seems to miss the subtle little clues with most people in terms of what they mean and want. But anyway.

    Other than that I've often noticed that people higher up on heirarchies often seem to make these assumptions about what work people "beneath" them have or haven't done, or what their plans are (assuming they have plans), what they know or are aware of, etc. without actually taking the time to talk to them or observe them... I mean... This happened a lot years ago when I worked in a grocery store. It had this multi-layered heirarchy of incompetence and inefficiency where it seemed like the people in charge just made all these assumptions. In my case I think it was because I didn't talk to them much or didn't express much to them. So I eventually resolved my issue by telling them everything I was doing all of the time, so then they would always know, and wouldn't be able to make assumptions about what I was or wasn't doing (when they didn't ask or watch me). They seemed happier after I started talking to them incessantly about what I was doing... but I felt that was kind of a control also because I shouldn't have needed to do that... like why couldn't I just be the way I am... why do I need to behave in a certain way just because they seem to think it's how everyone should behave. Meh. Granted, with that job I would have failed the little personality test I took in the application process had I actually been telling the truth on it. But I needed money, so I decided to lie. My personality wasn't really what they wanted. Oh well.

    The other thing that happens occassionally is I'll just be trying to present multiple perspectives that one could have about something in a non-personal way... or I might say some of the possibilities I see... and then someone will assume I've either picked one of the possibilities, or hold one of the points of view, when I haven't/don't. Then I just offer clarification until it gets cleared up. But I usually throw in some indicators in the way I communicate to emphasize these things... and some people pick these up, but others don't. Because it's what I naturally do, it's automatic, so I find the same patterns play out repeatedly unless I try to change something.

    I think of all of this as the intollerant part of me.

  35. #35
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I don't really understand what you said... but I got Fe-PoLR out of it, not sure if I'm right or wrong.
    Sorry, I think I made it rather vague on purpose. I'm don't think I'm willing to be less vague on this topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I consider someone pretentious if they spout out a bunch of facts and vocabulary to an audience that doesn't care or have the remotest chance of understanding what they're talking about. For instance somebody trying to give a lecture on socionics to a bunch of bums and crackheads in a back alley is pretentious. Also somebody who thinks that using lots of facts and big words somehow proves their intelligence and those who don't understand them's low intelligence.
    Yeah. I find someone showing off of one's intelligence for that sake and not for the sake of discussion pretentious. Not only it's pretentious, but it's also very shallow.

    I find claiming to have knowledge or abilities one does not possess pretentious.

    I'm probably projecting... lol.

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