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Thread: ESTj and ENTj descriptions favor ENTjs?

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    Default ESTj and ENTj descriptions favor ENTjs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ESTjs work hard, play hard. They spend a lot of time working, and they usually work with their hands. Professional (as opposed to skilled worker or laborer) ESTjs are more likely to be surgeons, etc. than do something that isn't directly related to the present, physical world. Thomas Edison, a brilliant ESTj, worked with his hands inventing things. ESTjs tend to be classic workaholics, taking over time and side jobs. Once they're done working though, they either relax or play. They don't feel like they should be working when they're done for the day. They know they work a lot, and work hard. Their recreational time is spent partying, playing some sort of sport, attending sports games, hiking, or just genuinely relaxing.

    ENTjs work hard, crash hard. They spend a lot of time working. They may or may not work with their hands, it depends on what their long term goals are. When they try to relax, they often feel restless. Their pet project is on their mind, or the things that they know need to get done haunt them. It difficult for them to just totally unwind and enjoy relaxation. Because of this restlessness, it is common for them to push themselves until they burn out. Once they recover, they go right back to working towards their goals.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs are very much into their "toys", often things like jet skis, motorcycles, ATVs, campers, tools, classic cars, etc.

    ENTjs are very much into their gadgets, often things like computers, GPSs, etc.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs think, "Why pay someone to do it when you can do it yourself, and you can do it better?" ESTjs are prone to change their own oil, and possibly even do their own auto repairs. They'll roof their own houses (often with friends, and they help their friends roof their houses, too), paint their houses, etc. They often do these things for others as well, sometimes as a favor, sometimes as a side job. An ESTj who can easily afford to have others do this type of thing for them sometimes still do it themselves, because they are perfectionists and rather enjoy that type of thing anyways.

    ENTjs think, "Why do it yourself when you can pay someone else to do it, and they can do it better?" While an ENTj may know how to change their oil and do their own home improvements and repairs, if they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them, they will. If not, they'll do it themselves, but they may put it off as long as they know they can get away with it. ENTjs place a high value on their time, and they often see learning how to do something properly and then actually doing it as not being worth the time and effort when they could just pay a someone who does that for a living to take care of it.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs believe that with financial security comes freedom. ESTjs are more likely to be interested in investments that they perceive as being safe. They are comfortable investing in their education, whole life insurance policies, their homes, CDs, savings accounts, mutual funds, or loyalty to a company (which earns them a pension or other retirement benefits). The important thing is to make sure that their families will always live comfortably. An ESTj entrepreneur will work his ass off to make sure that his company succeeds and that if business slows down his family will still be comfortable.

    ENTjs believe that with financial freedom comes security. ENTjs are more likely to be interested in investments that many would see as risky. ENTjs find risk somewhat exciting and perhaps even enjoyable, but it's because they are wise when it comes to managing risk. They manage risk through doing their homework and well thought out long term planning. They do not mind maintaining a lower standard of living for the sake of reaching their goals, and they do not worry too much about how their standard of living may be affected if (or when) something goes wrong. They know that ups and downs are inevitable when you're building businesses and putting money into high risk, high reward investments. They plan for market cycles in their businesses and investments, and see "don't lose money" as an unwise investment strategy.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs want to take care of their partners. They want to take care of things for their partners, whether it's small like carrying something for them or getting them something to drink, or a large project.

    ENTjs want to challenge their partners. And even more so, they want their partners to challenge them. While they want to make sure that their partners are taken care of, they're more likely to do it by planning for their long term financial success than actually physically doing stuff for them.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs focus on working hard day to day, knowing that doing so will make them prosperous in the long term. Most financially successful ESTjs generally got where they are through long term diligence. They worked hard day to day.

    ENTjs focus on long term prosperity, and they spend their days working hard to accomplish their long term goals. ENTjs aren't happy unless they have long term goals to work towards, and have difficulty working hard day to day if they don't have a vision of the future to keep them going.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs make regular purchases related to Si. They budget clothes, high quality food, going out, an attractive home/car, vacations, and other things related to Si into their spending.

    ENTjs make sporadic purchases related to Si. They generally don't think much about Si stuff, but if a Si urge hits them, they aren't good denying themselves, even if it means disregarding their budget. Although ENTjs are good at long term or large scope financial planning and business management, they aren't always the best at micromanaging their spending.

    [hr:6535cc4fa5]

    ESTjs generally talk about what's going on right now. As in, today or this week, maybe this month. They get sort of impatient with people who talk mostly about the long term future or far out goals.

    ENTjs love talking about the future and their future plans. They get sort of bored with people who only want to talk about what's going on in the present.
    From a Delta perspective, does it sound like what's written here is slanted towards making the ENTj descriptions sound more favorable than the ESTj descriptions? I've heard input from two people on this matter, and I'm looking to find out what the rest of Delta thinks.
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    Default Re: Does this description seems to favor ENTjs?

    IMO, this was a rather excellent post.

    I also believe it is unusually impartial in representation.

    However, given the obvious fact that I am a human being with my own subjective preferences, I just so happen to find the alleged ESTj qualities described to be more appealing. However, the ENTjs I've known can also be endearing, too, for many of the characteristics given above.

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    Thank you. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Thank you. :-)
    You're welcome!

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    btw, Deltas should theoretically find the ESTj description more appealing (assuming it's written impartially)
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    There were a couple of spots where I felt like maybe there was a slight preference for ENTj, but it was very slight, and it's long and I can't seem to bring myself to read through it carefully again. LOL. I will keep trying.

    Overall I think it was a very good description regardless of any possible slight preference.
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    I think it's an excellent description.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    OK I found one spot. I don't think ENTjs are always very wise at managing risk. Some are. Some, on the other hand, seem to flit from one "get-rick quick" scheme to another without every actually getting anywhere. From the outside I can't help but think if they'd settled and actually worked all that time they'd be pretty comfortable. My brother has a good friend who is like this. He gets these investment ideas and they never work out and he never gets anywhere. But he isn't very bright. So maybe an intelligent ENTj is wise at managing risk but not all are.

    I think the other part was that it sounds like you obviously like the idea of one partner challenging another as being better than the caretaker/infantile thing. And really in our relationship we take care of each other to some extent - it isn't quite as one-sided as the label suggests. Also, caretakers are concerned about planning for the long-term comfort of their partners, and that includes long-term financial planning. My husband makes investments (very safe ones) that ensure that we'll always be comfortable and he has things set up so that if something happens to him I'll be ok. He's ISTp rather than ESTj but I think that is relevant to both ESTjs and ISTps.
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    Thanks. :-) Surprisingly, it was less difficult to write this description than the post about the differences between ESTjs and ISFjs. I guess it's because there's more common ground between ESTjs and ENTjs, so it's easier to isolate differences, and also partially because it's easier to know what to attribute those differences to.
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    Overall, it was pretty objective.
    INTp
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    Default Re: Does this description seems to favor ENTjs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ESTjs think, "Why pay someone to do it when you can do it yourself, and you can do it better?" ESTjs are prone to change their own oil, and possibly even do their own auto repairs. They'll roof their own houses (often with friends, and they help their friends roof their houses, too), paint their houses, etc. They often do these things for others as well, sometimes as a favor, sometimes as a side job. An ESTj who can easily afford to have others do this type of thing for them sometimes still do it themselves, because they are perfectionists and rather enjoy that type of thing anyways.
    This also applies perfectly to ESFjs, IMO (and to many ISXps as well, I think)



    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ENTjs think, "Why do it yourself when you can pay someone else to do it, and they can do it better?" While an ENTj may know how to change their oil and do their own home improvements and repairs, if they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them, they will. If not, they'll do it themselves, but they may put it off as long as they know they can get away with it. ENTjs place a high value on their time, and they often see learning how to do something properly and then actually doing it as not being worth the time and effort when they could just pay a someone who does that for a living to take care of it.

    This also applies perfectly to ENFjs, IMO



    So, this part = Si EGO vs. Ni EGO ("in general"), I guess.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    btw, Deltas should theoretically find the ESTj description more appealing (assuming it's written impartially)
    FWIW, I do.

    -Playing hard is better than crashing hard.

    -Gadgets are toys - no preference.

    -I agree with the ESTj position - seems more realistic and responsible. If I know how to do something, why pay someone to do a job I can't be fully confident about? I'll probably end up having to fix it myself anyway.

    -No preference, but I agree with the ESTj assessment. I don't see the logic behind risky investments leading to security - that's why they are risky.

    -I would rather take care of someone than challenge them.

    -No preference on prosperity. Sounds like two ways of describing the same thing.

    -Si purchases - no preference.

    -Present vs long term topics - no preference. Both have their place.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    FWIW, I do.
    Yeah i do aswell so i think Joy did an excellent job.

    -No preference, but I agree with the ESTj assessment. I don't see the logic behind risky investments leading to security - that's why they are risky.
    Mate i dont either. In fact a lot of risky people here in Australia and America according to my dad are going to feel the pinch right now. Our stockmarket has been taking a beating lately apparently to do partially with the sub prime markets over there in America. Im thankful that whatever shares my dad has are blue-chip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    -I agree with the ESTj position - seems more realistic and responsible. If I know how to do something, why pay someone to do a job I can't be fully confident about? I'll probably end up having to fix it myself anyway.
    Honestly I think everybody should be like this? Given that you have enough free time to fix it, of course (you make a little calculatioN: if the wage of the time you spend working is higher than how much you spend to make somebody else fix the object, you let the other fix it, otherwise, you fix it).

    I've learnt to fix my bike all by myself because on the long run (Ni!!!) the costs of not being able to would have been high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    FWIW, I do.
    Yeah i do aswell so i think Joy did an excellent job.
    Thanks. :-)

    Force my hand, Delta ST makes sense for you, imo. You're obviously logical, and I can't see you in Gamma or Alpha. If you relate to Delta quadra values better than Beta, then you're probably a Delta ST. (Which one depends on temperament, restless/proactive vs. relaxed/go with the flow.)

    -No preference, but I agree with the ESTj assessment. I don't see the logic behind risky investments leading to security - that's why they are risky.
    Mate i dont either. In fact a lot of risky people here in Australia and America according to my dad are going to feel the pinch right now. Our stockmarket has been taking a beating lately apparently to do partially with the sub prime markets over there in America. Im thankful that whatever shares my dad has are blue-chip.
    I personally see the stock market as gambling. Except the corporations are the house. If I'm going to be involved with the stock market, it will be with IPOs or more likely, I'll be creating the stocks. I'm more interested in real estate though.
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    Default Re: Does this description seems to favor ENTjs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ESTjs think, "Why pay someone to do it when you can do it yourself, and you can do it better?" ESTjs are prone to change their own oil, and possibly even do their own auto repairs. They'll roof their own houses (often with friends, and they help their friends roof their houses, too), paint their houses, etc. They often do these things for others as well, sometimes as a favor, sometimes as a side job. An ESTj who can easily afford to have others do this type of thing for them sometimes still do it themselves, because they are perfectionists and rather enjoy that type of thing anyways.
    This also applies perfectly to ESFjs, IMO (and to many ISXps as well, I think)



    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ENTjs think, "Why do it yourself when you can pay someone else to do it, and they can do it better?" While an ENTj may know how to change their oil and do their own home improvements and repairs, if they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them, they will. If not, they'll do it themselves, but they may put it off as long as they know they can get away with it. ENTjs place a high value on their time, and they often see learning how to do something properly and then actually doing it as not being worth the time and effort when they could just pay a someone who does that for a living to take care of it.

    This also applies perfectly to ENFjs, IMO



    So, this part = Si EGO vs. Ni EGO ("in general"), I guess.
    Well, I was focusing on the differences between two similar types, one Si creative and one Ni creative, so it makes sense that some of it would apply to ENFjs and ESFjs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    if the wage of the time you spend working is higher than how much you spend to make somebody else fix the object, you let the other fix it, otherwise, you fix it).
    That's exactly how I look at it. Of course, if I don't have the money and it needs to be done, I'll be the one doing it... and I also consider some of that stuff to be "training" because it's relevant to my job, so I'm more likely to do home repairs/renovations myself even if I'm not sure that it would cost less to do it myself (which is figured time, tool, and material wise), depending on how valuable I think it is for me to have that experience.

    Another thing that may be related... If Deltas want to comment that would be cool...

    ESTjs are likely to ask friends for help when doing big projects. They can do this (and feel comfortable doing it) because they do or would help their friends with stuff like that, too. It's just give and take.

    ENTjs feel a bit uncomfortable accepting that kind of favor and are more likely to be irritated if asked for that kind of favor. If they can afford to hire someone else to do it, they'd generally rather do that than ask a friend who knows how to do it (depending on their relationship with that friend, of course). If they don't really know how to do it, have a friend who does, and can't afford to hire someone, they're more likely to do it themselves and then call their friend with questions if they run into any (depending on the task, of course.) If they have two friends that would do it, and one would accept payment and the other wouldn't, their natural reaction would be to call up the one who will take money. They'd rather do a business transaction than accept a big favor (one requiring a lot of effort). They would rather buy a service than simply get taken care of. And they don't want to feel obligated to do stuff in return down the road, and would consider this even if they know that their friend won't ask for anything in return.
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    I think it is the norm for Deltas to help each other with big projects.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Default Re: Does this description seems to favor ENTjs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    From a Delta perspective, does it sound like what's written here is slanted towards making the ENTj descriptions sound more favorable than the ESTj descriptions? I've heard input from two people on this matter, and I'm looking to find out what the rest of Delta thinks.
    Actually, I feel that you wrote the ESTjs more favorably than the ENTjs. The qualities you have associated with ESTjs are exactly what I look for in a partner. I have never thought that they are type-related because I assume that these are what everyone wants to look for in a man. I'm pleasantly surprised that such a perfect person actually exists, so I guess I seldom meet ESTjs here.

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    Default Re: Does this description seems to favor ENTjs?

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    From a Delta perspective, does it sound like what's written here is slanted towards making the ENTj descriptions sound more favorable than the ESTj descriptions? I've heard input from two people on this matter, and I'm looking to find out what the rest of Delta thinks.
    Actually, I feel that you wrote the ESTjs more favorably than the ENTjs. The qualities you have associated with ESTjs are exactly what I look for in a partner. I have never thought that they are type-related because I assume that these are what everyone wants to look for in a man. I'm pleasantly surprised that such a perfect person actually exists, so I guess I seldom meet ESTjs here.
    I was married to an ESTj once. Suffices to say I don't share you sentiments.
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    Default Re: Does this description seems to favor ENTjs?

    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    I have never thought that they are type-related because I assume that these are what everyone wants to look for in a man.
    That's the strongest confirmation of your type so far -- the "isn't everyone like that" thing.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Another thing that may be related... If Deltas want to comment that would be cool...
    In this case I would operate more on the hypothetical ENTj method; however, I think this is a result of the poor quality of my social network than any personality trait I may exhibit. I know many useful people in my acquaintance, but many of them I don't actively like, nor would I ever want to become indebted to them. Sometimes the sanitary nature of a business transaction is a true relief!

    (I suppose with a real friend I wouldn't hesitate to try to recruit if I thought they might not mind.)
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    All I know is that I would personally like to meet more ESTjs. The generic type descriptions make them sound so boring. Based on what you posted they sound like the type of person I want to meet...

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