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Thread: On ENTjs and SLEs

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I think I said you are an ESTj like a year ago! I don't remember what made me come to that conclusion. Sadly I didn't stick with that long enough to convince you (or myself ).
    I'm sure you said that same about me a few months ago.

    For the record, I am certainly not ESTj, regardless of what Ganin's Type Assistant might purport.
    I think it was the other way around Ezra My most voiced out guesses were ENTp, ESTp, ENFj and you insisted on being ENTj or ESTj for quite a while.
    It's funny, because I think I know everything there is to know about tying, even if I've only just been introduced to a theory, and then when Expat says something like 'trust us - you don't know, we do' I take offence. How pathetic of me.

    I know I'm not ESTj by nature (Ganin's TA is basically a rehash of MBTI, typing by dichotomies). Nor am I ENFj. Although I've expressed sentiments and played out actions tied with both. But fundamentally, my function ordering is nothing like them. I can also cross off all the IJ and IP temperaments just by looking at the behaviour and observing cert IP and IJ friends of mine. I don't think I'm part of the EJ temperament. Their focus on non-divergence from and strict attachment to the plan is simply too immoderate for me. I can diverge very easily. However, there are many things I do relate to, like their relationships with other temperaments, as well as some of their behaviour. Nonetheless, I don't think my psychological patterns really correspond with EJ. They're much more akin to EP.

    The problem I have from here onwards is deciding my functional ordering. Can an SLE truly be an ENTJ in MBTI? Can one be intuitive and sensing, judging and perceiving? Also, how imaginative can SLEs be? I'd have no problem calling myself an ILE were it not for my refusal to avoid conflict, regardless of the kind of atmosphere it may create.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Something else to consider --

    Rightly or wrongly, LSE is a type socionists often pick for Thomas Edison. Would you think of Thomas Edison when reading that ESTJ Keirsey description? I think not. It's this kind of thing that leads to results such as that one in Lytov's study.


    But, back to UDP's question:

    UDP, on your question between ISFj and ESTj, let me ask you this.

    Do you find yourself with some regularity regretting actions and decisions you took impulsively? Like, you could see a problem looming, you felt you had to do something before it got too late, then took action that turned out to be impulsive and not the correct one at that moment, with you often wishing you had had someone to discuss such decisions with before taking action?

    I'm asking if that's a fairly frequent problem, or if you'd never think of that is a major problem with you.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Something else to consider --

    Rightly or wrongly, LSE is a type socionists often pick for Thomas Edison. Would you think of Thomas Edison when reading that ESTJ Keirsey description? I think not. It's this kind of thing that leads to results such as that one in Lytov's study.
    Hmm, I don't know. Why wouldn't Edison fit Keirsey's ESTJ?

    Actually, I was checking him out on Wikipedia, and found this:

    "In school, the young Edison's mind often wandered..." That's DEFINITELY not MBTI ESTJ, hahaha. But look:

    "This began Edisons long streak of entrepreneurial ventures as he discovered his talents as a businessman..." Are you sure he's not ENTj, Expat?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    It's funny, because I think I know everything there is to know about tying, even if I've only just been introduced to a theory, and then when Expat says something like 'trust us - you don't know, we do' I take offence. How pathetic of me.
    What you just said now is what's pathetic. Did I refuse to back up what I said with explanations? No. Perhaps later, when you seemed to be ignoring what I was saying, so it became a waste of time on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    The problem I have from here onwards is deciding my functional ordering. Can an SLE truly be an ENTJ in MBTI? Can one be intuitive and sensing, judging and perceiving? Also, how imaginative can SLEs be? I'd have no problem calling myself an ILE were it not for my refusal to avoid conflict, regardless of the kind of atmosphere it may create.
    The problem with this question - and I know some people will disagree - is that it depends on what you're talking about when you refer to being "ENTJ".

    As for SLEs being imaginative, two SLE examples are Peter the Great and Lenin. I guess you could call them "imaginative" to a high extent.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Hmm, I don't know. Why wouldn't Edison fit Keirsey's ESTJ?
    Because that particular description suggests someone who frowns on speculation and experimentation, which of course is not what Edison was about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    "This began Edisons long streak of entrepreneurial ventures as he discovered his talents as a businessman..." Are you sure he's not ENTj, Expat?
    I'm not sure of it. ENTj is plausible from what I know of him. The reason why people think of ESTj is that he took what could be called a very approach to experiments and inventions.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    What you just said now is what's pathetic. Did I refuse to back up what I said with explanations? No. Perhaps later, when you seemed to be ignoring what I was saying, so it became a waste of time on my part.
    Ahh, but did it? Expat, what you and others said - regardless of what you all thought or still think about me - led me to question a lot about the theory and myself. Yes, I have an awful habit of rejecting claims that are contrary to my own held beliefs at that time, and yes, it looks as if I will never entertain concepts that are foreign to me, but no, I am not as stubborn or ignorant as you think. Your arguments led to something. Definitely.

    The problem with this question - and I know some people will disagree - is that it depends on what you're talking about when you refer to being "ENTJ".
    Look at this, Expat, from Wikipedia's ENTJ entry. Look how different it is to LIE (the bold especially). This characterises me:

    "ENTJs have a natural tendency to marshall and direct. This may be expressed with the charm and finesse of a world leader or with the insensitivity of a cult leader. The ENTJ requires little encouragement to make a plan. One ENTJ put it this way... "I make these little plans that really don't have any importance to anyone else, and then feel compelled to carry them out." While "compelled" may not describe ENTJs as a group, nevertheless the bent to plan creatively and to make those plans reality is a common theme for NJ types."

    Some of it rings true with LIE. But much of it is completely contrary to it. To me, the ENTJ is like a mixture of the SLE's soldier-like way of being and the LIE's mind of prospects and plans in business and life in general, and the follow-through of those plans. It sounds arrogant, but is the ultimate mix. They are also represented by a very small minority of the world's population.

    As for SLEs being imaginative, two SLE examples are Peter the Great and Lenin. I guess you could call them "imaginative" to a high extent.
    Imaginative or simply observant of the status quo? Lenin did a characteristically SLE thing - he saw what was needed Russia, and acted decisively and quickly. It didn't take much imagination. He also didn't really - IMO - think like Che Guevara, with a hugely idealistic goal in mind about communising the whole world. He saw what was already there. In fact, if he was SLE, would he have said or thought 'Russia WILL BECOME this or that'? No. He said 'Russia IS this. It needs changing'.

    Reading about Peter, he seems most like ENTJ (MBTI). I find interesting the idea that it's likely that you can correlate ENTJ and SLE very easily.

    Expat, just out of curiosity, did you ever take any MBTI tests and if so, what type fitted you?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Good idea. It was straying off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Hmm, I don't know. Why wouldn't Edison fit Keirsey's ESTJ?
    Because that particular description suggests someone who frowns on speculation and experimentation, which of course is not what Edison was about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    "This began Edisons long streak of entrepreneurial ventures as he discovered his talents as a businessman..." Are you sure he's not ENTj, Expat?
    I'm not sure of it. ENTj is plausible from what I know of him. The reason why people think of ESTj is that he took what could be called a very approach to experiments and inventions.
    See, because of this, I'd assume that he was LIE and not LSE. I don't think ESTJ and LSE are particularly far from each other. And I was under the impression that LSEs also frown on speculation and experimentation, which is why it would be strange to associate Edison with the type.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    The problem with this question - and I know some people will disagree - is that it depends on what you're talking about when you refer to being "ENTJ".
    Look at this, Expat, from Wikipedia's ENTJ entry. Look how different it is to LIE (the bold especially). This characterises me:

    "ENTJs have a natural tendency to marshall and direct. This may be expressed with the charm and finesse of a world leader or with the insensitivity of a cult leader. The ENTJ requires little encouragement to make a plan. One ENTJ put it this way... "I make these little plans that really don't have any importance to anyone else, and then feel compelled to carry them out." While "compelled" may not describe ENTJs as a group, nevertheless the bent to plan creatively and to make those plans reality is a common theme for NJ types."
    But that's my point. If you think that "ENTJs" are a group of people who share those characteristics, then the same person could be ENTJ according to those, and SLE or even EIE in socionics rather than LIE.

    To get one point straight -- I do not support the thesis that MBTI types correspond necessarily to socionics types. I think it's a pointless discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Imaginative or simply observant of the status quo? Lenin did a characteristically SLE thing - he saw what was needed Russia, and acted decisively and quickly. It didn't take much imagination. He also didn't really - IMO - think like Che Guevara, with a hugely idealistic goal in mind about communising the whole world. He saw what was already there. In fact, if he was SLE, would he have said or thought 'Russia WILL BECOME this or that'? No. He said 'Russia IS this. It needs changing'.
    I think you need to read more on Lenin then.

    What you said is accurate if you are thinking only of his tactics to take over power. But as for his not having imagination and not having Guevara's goal of communising the whole world, you're simply mistaken.

    Lenin was more opportunistic and realistic than Guevara in his actions; he thought that his focus had to be on Russia. That doesn't mean that, theoretically, he did not share the view of the whole world becoming communist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Expat, just out of curiosity, did you ever take any MBTI tests and if so, what type fitted you?
    In the available pop-MBTI like tests available online, I always come as an NT type, most often INTJ, with the others on occasion. I tend to fit INTJ because those tests tend to equal "extraversion" with "disliking solitude" and being "socially outgoing".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    And I was under the impression that LSEs also frown on speculation and experimentation, which is why it would be strange to associate Edison with the type.
    LSEs frown on the kind of "speculation" if you stray too far away from present reality. But they greatly value the kind of speculation which is based on improvements and alternatives to present reality.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Thomas Edison quotes:

    Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. (ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease. (Si > Ni.... though in all fairness to his Ni, I don't know how many people alive back then could have predicted that the health care system would end up being run by insurance and pharmaceutical companies)

    There is no expedient to which a man will not go to avoid the labor of thinking. (Intelligence, but I also think what he had in mind here has to do with the ESTj work ethic)

    We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. (Ne, I guess... maybe Te)

    If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward. (ESTj work ethic with a strong Positivist Ne influence)

    Anything that won't sell, I don't want to invent. Its sale is proof of utility, and utility is success. (Te)

    Be courageous. I have seen many depressions in business. Always America has emerged from these stronger and more prosperous. Be brave as your fathers before you. Have faith! Go forward! (Not all that sure what to attribute this to... this seems like the opposite something an ESFj would say, so it's not just about a Ne hidden agenda)

    Being busy does not always mean real work. The object of all work is production or accomplishment and to either of these ends there must be forethought, system, planning, intelligence, and honest purpose, as well as perspiration. Seeming to do is not doing. (Te, intelligence, Delta quadra values in general)

    Discontent is the first necessity of progress. (Ne)

    Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. (weak Ni, weak Fi, sensing, Te)

    Everything comes to him who hustles while he waits. (weak Ni, EJ)

    Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration. (ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    Great ideas originate in the muscles. (ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. (Ne, Te > Ti, but I don't know the context in which this was said)

    I am proud of the fact that I never invented weapons to kill. (Fi, unvalued Se)

    I find my greatest pleasure, and so my reward, in the work that precedes what the world calls success. (Si > Se, EJ, ESTj work ethic)

    I have friends in overalls whose friendship I would not swap for the favor of the kings of the world. (Fi > Fe, though obviously any type can have this attitude)

    I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. (I see EJ in this, as well as dynamicism, and perhaps Ne?)

    I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun. (Serious, EJ, ESTj work ethic perhaps, Ne perhaps)

    I never did anything by accident, nor did any of my inventions come by accident; they came by work. (ESTj work ethic, EJ, tactics)

    I start where the last man left off. (ESTj work ethic, tactics)

    If we did all the things we are capable of, we would literally astound ourselves. (intelligence perhaps, Ne)

    It is astonishing what an effort it seems to be for many people to put their brains definitely and systematically to work. (Intelligence)

    Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless. (Te, Ne)

    Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. (Intelligence perhaps, Ne perhaps, ESTj work ethic perhaps)

    Maturity is often more absurd than youth and very frequently is most unjust to youth. (Ne)

    Nearly every man who develops an idea works it up to the point where it looks impossible, and then he gets discouraged. That's not the place to become discouraged. (Intelligence, wisdom, EJ, Ne)

    Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages. (Fi, unvalued Se)

    One might think that the money value of an invention constitutes its reward to the man who loves his work. But... I continue to find my greatest pleasure, and so my reward, in the work that precedes what the world calls success. (I thought this one was already in here? In any case, ESTj work ethic, unvalued Se and Fe)

    Our greatest weakness lies in giving up. The most certain way to succeed is always to try just one more time. (ESTj work ethics, EJ)

    Religion is all bunk. (lmao did Edison really say that? I'd say intelligence, Te/Fi > Ti/Fe, Ne... and yes, I realize that there are plenty of athiest and agnostic Ti/Fe types in the world)

    Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress. (EJ mostly, Ne)

    Show me a thoroughly satisfied man and I will show you a failure. (omg I love Thomas Edison! This sentence speaks against the main problem I've had with Delta, especially Delta STs, in general, which leads me to believe that intelligence plays a large role in this mindset. I can see EJ restlessness in this statement though.)

    The best thinking has been done in solitude. The worst has been done in turmoil. (Si maybe? Perhaps not type related? I dunno)

    The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. (this was in here before with slightly different working... oh well, ESTj work ethic, EJ)

    The three great essentials to achieve anything worth while are: Hard work, Stick-to-itiveness, and Common sense. (I think this statement is a very large part of the very essence of ESTj)

    The value of an idea lies in the using of it. (Te, perhaps sensing to some extent)

    There is no substitute for hard work. (ESTj ESTj ESTj)

    There will one day spring from the brain of science a machine or force so fearful in its potentialities, so absolutely terrifying, that even man, the fighter, who will dare torture and death in order to inflict torture and death, will be appalled, and so abandon war forever. (ahahahahahahahahaha yeah, the threat of a nuclear holocaust didn't end war... I really don't think anything can. Humans will never be that wise or enlightened. It is in human nature to hate and to harm other humans. Anyways, this shows shitty Ni and unvalued Se)

    There's a way to do it better - find it. (Te, Ne to a lessor extent)

    They say President Wilson has blundered. Perhaps he has, but I notice he usually blunders forward. (dynamicism perhaps, Te perhaps)

    To have a great idea, have a lot of them. (Ne maybe)

    To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. (Ne)

    Waste is worse than loss. The time is coming when every person who lays claim to ability will keep the question of waste before him constantly. The scope of thrift is limitless. (Si and Te, I guess)

    We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. (Ne, maybe Te)

    What you are will show in what you do.

    When I have fully decided that a result is worth getting I go ahead of it and make trial after trial until it comes. (EJ perhaps)

    Your worth consists in what you are and not in what you have.
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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    speculation is based around a prediction not being possible, but actually true (vision). They basically like to believe they KNOW what's going to happen. So when it even looks like the prediction is never ever going to happen they still stick with it and when it turns out not to be true they then tell themselves they always knew or that next time they'll predict better.

    That's probably why edison focused more on experimenting by trial and error (didn't want to think he know what was going to happen).

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    speculation is based around a prediction not being possible, but actually true (vision). They basically like to believe they KNOW what's going to happen. So when it even looks like the prediction is never ever going to happen they still stick with it and when it turns out not to be true they then tell themselves they always knew or that next time they'll predict better.
    is not always as "fanatical" as that . It's not necessarily about "believing they know what will happen"; it's also, or more often, about being confident that one outcome is more likely than others, so it's worth it to take a risk on it rather than waste time and energy. But there isn't necessarily a certainty of the outcome.

    About telling "themselves they always knew it" - no, again, it's not necessarily as fanatical as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    That's probably why edison focused more on experimenting by trial and error (didn't want to think he know what was going to happen).
    I fully agree with this.

    It is interesting to note that Nikola Tesla, who worked for Edison and observed him closely for a time, found Edison's methods wasteful in the end. He thought that Edison worked so much because he couldn't be bothered to think.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    speculation is based around a prediction not being possible, but actually true (vision). They basically like to believe they KNOW what's going to happen. So when it even looks like the prediction is never ever going to happen they still stick with it and when it turns out not to be true they then tell themselves they always knew or that next time they'll predict better.
    This sounds more like "wanna be" Ni + an introverted rational function. (And it sounds rather Static, if I'm reading what you mean the right way.)

    What Expat said is exactly right, it's only about seeing the most likely course of events. I have a really hard time seeing a Ni type being so stubborn about a "prediction".
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Lenin was more opportunistic and realistic than Guevara in his actions; he thought that his focus had to be on Russia. That doesn't mean that, theoretically, he did not share the view of the whole world becoming communist.
    But it's likely that he didn't to the same extent that Guevara did. Che was a man of vision from the start - he didn't see the need for change in the same way Lenin did. Technically there was no problem - Che saw injustice and thought 'the world is like this, and it can change, so I will it to', whereas with Lenin, Russia was ripe for change. Everyone saw it - not like Che and Latin America where only he and a few others did - there was shit happening right in front of their eyes. All they needed was a strong leader, and they got it in the form of Lenin. Che is a strategist, Lenin is a tactician.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    In the available pop-MBTI like tests available online, I always come as an NT type, most often INTJ, with the others on occasion. I tend to fit INTJ because those tests tend to equal "extraversion" with "disliking solitude" and being "socially outgoing".
    Haha, I love the way you totally downplay MBTI in every imaginable way.

    That's interesting. I could see you as an INTJ. You're certainly not Extraverted. But I think the tests you take must be shit. Because with the ones I take, they make it very clear that extraversion DOESN'T equate to a dislike of solitude, nor does it mean one is socially adept. No, extraversion means you are interested not with the world within but the world without.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    And I was under the impression that LSEs also frown on speculation and experimentation, which is why it would be strange to associate Edison with the type.
    LSEs frown on the kind of "speculation" if you stray too far away from present reality. But they greatly value the kind of speculation which is based on improvements and alternatives to present reality.
    I see. So LSEs approve of ILEs' and IEEs' way of thinking, but not the way IEIs or ILIs do?

    Taking into account Intertype Relationships, ILEs are their request partners, and IEEs their activation partners, while IEIs are conflictors and ILIs are their supervisors.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I was in a course that had an ENTj trainer/teacher and I had the opportunity to watch him and his interactions with people for several days.

    ENTj is above all a very positive person. They give the impression of someone who is a bit spaced out and always in a good mood and telling funny stuff and not dangerous in the least. They have some problems with details and often give the impression that they are kind of careless in everything they do and say. They talk a lot and quite spontaneously. Their brain works quickly but sometimes the details of what they say are a bit out of place. If someone points this out they really don't pay much attention but focus more on the "bottom line".

    When challenged ENTj will quickly turn into a bulldozer though. They never back down on a challenge and their positive and upbeat character suddenly turns into a powerful, crushing juggernaut. However this quickly fades away and they go back into their spaced out and positive form.

    Sometimes they initiate this "bulldozer mode" themselves if they think other people deserve it. They will challenge people for their words often in front of an audience. Their meaning is rarely if ever to "offend" someone on purpose but often other people (especially Fe-types) get offended for being "ridiculed" and not "respected" in front of other people.

    So most often you will see a somewhat bubbly, chatty, very positive, careless, spaced out ENTj with a "you can do it!" attitude. Occasionally you will see a bulldozer but in case of a healthy ENTj it is quite rare.

    ESTps are less bubbly, more serious, more negative, more "concentrated" or "focused". ESTps also have way more insecurities regarding other people and are more concerned about how one "should behave" in a social situations.

    Ok this is based on a small amount of material but...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Lenin was more opportunistic and realistic than Guevara in his actions; he thought that his focus had to be on Russia. That doesn't mean that, theoretically, he did not share the view of the whole world becoming communist.
    But it's likely that he didn't to the same extent that Guevara did. Che was a man of vision from the start - he didn't see the need for change in the same way Lenin did. Technically there was no problem - Che saw injustice and thought 'the world is like this, and it can change, so I will it to', whereas with Lenin, Russia was ripe for change. Everyone saw it - not like Che and Latin America where only he and a few others did - there was shit happening right in front of their eyes. All they needed was a strong leader, and they got it in the form of Lenin. Che is a strategist, Lenin is a tactician.
    Again, read a biography on Lenin, or maybe some of his own writings.

    In one thing you come close to the truth: Lenin was a brilliant tactician, and Guevara was a lousy one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    In the available pop-MBTI like tests available online, I always come as an NT type, most often INTJ, with the others on occasion. I tend to fit INTJ because those tests tend to equal "extraversion" with "disliking solitude" and being "socially outgoing".
    Haha, I love the way you totally downplay MBTI in every imaginable way.

    That's interesting. I could see you as an INTJ. You're certainly not Extraverted. But I think the tests you take must be shit. Because with the ones I take, they make it very clear that extraversion DOESN'T equate to a dislike of solitude, nor does it mean one is socially adept. No, extraversion means you are interested not with the world within but the world without.
    And based on what information do you claim that I'm not "interested in the world without?"
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I was in a course that had an ENTj trainer/teacher and I had the opportunity to watch him and his interactions with people for several days.

    ENTj is above all a very positive person. They give the impression of someone who is a bit spaced out and always in a good mood and telling funny stuff and not dangerous in the least. They have some problems with details and often give the impression that they are kind of careless in everything they do and say. They talk a lot and quite spontaneously. Their brain works quickly but sometimes the details of what they say are a bit out of place. If someone points this out they really don't pay much attention but focus more on the "bottom line".

    When challenged ENTj will quickly turn into a bulldozer though. They never back down on a challenge and their positive and upbeat character suddenly turns into a powerful, crushing juggernaut. However this quickly fades away and they go back into their spaced out and positive form.

    Sometimes they initiate this "bulldozer mode" themselves if they think other people deserve it. They will challenge people for their words often in front of an audience. Their meaning is rarely if ever to "offend" someone on purpose but often other people (especially Fe-types) get offended for being "ridiculed" and not "respected" in front of other people.

    So most often you will see a somewhat bubbly, chatty, very positive, careless, spaced out ENTj with a "you can do it!" attitude. Occasionally you will see a bulldozer but in case of a healthy ENTj it is quite rare.

    ESTps are less bubbly, more serious, more negative, more "concentrated" or "focused". ESTps also have way more insecurities regarding other people and are more concerned about how one "should behave" in a social situations.

    Ok this is based on a small amount of material but...
    That does sound like one ENTj I know. Could anyone compare that to an ESTj?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  19. #19
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ESTps are less bubbly, more serious, more negative, more "concentrated" or "focused". ESTps also have way more insecurities regarding other people and are more concerned about how one "should behave" in a social situations.
    I agree with most of it, but not the fact that they're negative (I'm not pessimistic, I'm realistic) and that they have more insecurities. SLEs are confident by nature. LIEs may not be insecure by nature, but they have aesthetic insecurities, SLEs don't. SLEs also don't have any others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    In one thing you come close to the truth: Lenin was a brilliant tactician, and Guevara was a lousy one.
    He was poor. A lot of the guerillas' earlier losses were due to poor tactics. And in Africa, basically everything fucked everything up - and he was in command.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    And based on what information do you claim that I'm not "interested in the world without?"
    Actually, I don't. In fact, so far, you seem either inept in or unwilling to talk about introspection. Or you don't see much worth in it and thus don't put any emphasis on it. The latter is more likely.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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