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Thread: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship (Part 2)

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    Default On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship (Part 2)

    Part 1 is here. This is my interpretation (from the Aggressor's point of view):

    The Aggressor is constantly watchful for someone who will excite his inner machine - who will electrify his fighting spirit and actuate his inner fortitude. He remains nonchalant and uncommitted until he recieves the correct signal from his partner. Then only does the game begin. He expects of a worthy opponent someone who will neither condescend nor overlook his inner strength and force of will. He desires his partner to be fully cognizant of his victories. Only a Victim who is conscious of the challenge she presents to her Aggressor can fully appreciate the Aggressor's role and appropriately reciprocate. Each challenge presents a further opportunity to taste victory. The Aggressor enjoys the thrill of his own power; enjoys seeing his Victim's defenses dwindle down, piece by piece, until finally, she surrenders. He forges ahead as she softens such that true intimacy can be experienced.

    Then all cools, etc. etc. You know the drill.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Not appealing.

    - however, that does not mean it is not a good post, actually, I think it indicated the opposite.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Why do I find that oddly erotic...?? Like a socionics bodice-ripper...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    meh.... too much work.. hug me.
    I should have kept my original response!


    I expressed a dissatisfaction with the entire V/A concept. "I don't want a damn challenge, I want peace and tenderness". And, something about hugs - that is what I want to give, not some challenge. What too much tension, emotional stress, blah.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Why do I find that oddly erotic...?? Like a socionics bodice-ripper...
    :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    meh.... too much work.. hug me.
    I should have kept my original response!


    I expressed a dissatisfaction with the entire V/A concept. "I don't want a damn challenge, I want peace and tenderness". And, something about hugs - that is what I want to give, not some challenge. What too much tension, emotional stress, blah.
    Perhaps I should have noted a distinction between modes of unadulterated affection (show of romantic feeling), and these blurbs... which merely describe a courtship of purely erotic choreography. Immediate shows of affection - hugs, embraces, kissing, petting, carressing, etc. - are certainly possible within the context of these relationships and outside the context of this sexual interplay.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    "Aggressor" and "victim" are such a bad sounding words.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    @ Baby - your clarification in the second post does not matter (edit: as in, it does not matter, personally, to me). I just do not like that erotic flavor. Yeah, I like being dominant in a relationship, but there is an element that I find stressful in V/A type relations, and I see in real life how an ISTj approaches something like that - it just does not float my boat.


    And, no one so far is a V/A, aside from that one INFp. Everyone seemed to enjoy your first thread about V/A.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    mmmmhmm

    there's still some sort of push pull there operating?

    i don't feel anymore like i want challenges in a relationship. i've already lost one year of my life, thank you. everybody seems to be talking about "challenges" in A/V relationships...like I have the patience to play all those games, eh.

    NOW if we are ONLY talking about bedroom behaviour, that can be exciting
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    I find that appealing I guess. As long as the power play wouldn't mess up my life too much. However I'm not sure which role suits me better. As a rule I am not as active or determined as an aggressor is painted out to be but at the same time I find it practically impossible to really "surrender" to someone. So I could be a lazy aggressor or a VERY hard to get victim or something. Umm. Interesting descriptions anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    mmmmhmm

    there's still some sort of push pull there operating?

    i don't feel anymore like i want challenges in a relationship. i've already lost one year of my life, thank you. everybody seems to be talking about "challenges" in A/V relationships...like I have the patience to play all those games, eh.

    NOW if we are ONLY talking about bedroom behaviour, that can be exciting
    Aggressor-victim is all about push pull in and out of bed.

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    No way I can stand push pull out of bed, messes up my life very badly. I can't study, can barely work, etc

    it's okay if it's done at the start of the relationship, normal i'd say. but once the knot is tied, it's better to do new things toghether to liven things up, more than fighting over stuff
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    No way I can stand push pull out of bed, messes up my life very badly. I can't study, can barely work, etc
    But in bed you want to do push pull all night long, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    No way I can stand push pull out of bed, messes up my life very badly. I can't study, can barely work, etc
    But in bed you want to do push pull all night long, eh?
    yeah that doesn't really mess up anything
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    "Aggressor" and "victim" are such a bad sounding words.
    I don't think "infantile" is a very nice word either
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    mmmmhmm

    there's still some sort of push pull there operating?
    I guess I tend to think there should always be *some* modicum of tension between two people in any intimate relationship. That keeps it vital. Obviously, it shouldn't all be dramarama, glass-breaking maddening frustration, but rather like a delicate balance that incorporates the spectrum of feeling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    mmmmhmm

    there's still some sort of push pull there operating?
    I guess I tend to think there should always be *some* modicum of tension between two people in any intimate relationship. That keeps it vital. Obviously, it shouldn't all be dramarama, glass-breaking maddening frustration, but rather like a delicate balance that incorporates the spectrum of feeling.
    That's because you're a feeling type and you know your shit about it. Logical types are the ones that don't like drama because they are quite helpless at dealing with it (except by getting angry). You're probably correct that some tension is necessary but i'd rather place it in more innocous places.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    "Aggressor" and "Victim" should be changed to "Rapist" and "Hentai Slave".

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    You all are kind of taking these things a bit too seriously. I thought maybe the over-the-top, ridiculously overblown language I used would be enough to tip people off to take these things with a grain of salt. These are essentially burlesque little curio pieces that overstate and dramatize some much less dramatic real-life phenomena.

    As noted, the terms that Gulenko used to describe these phenomena ("Victim","Aggressor/Rapist", "Infantile", "Careful/Sugar Daddy" etc.) are more than a little ludicrous. I took these already outrageous connotations and ran with it. Does anyone ever actually see themselves as a "Victim" or an "Aggressor" to the one they love?! Maybe in isolated kinky instances, but asside from that, the case is overstated. As with any parody, there is a grain of truth somewhere, but take all this talk of "battle" and "fighting spirit" and "unbearable suspense" and "sadistic and animalistic apex" (<- my personal favorite, lol) and "climax" for what it's worth.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Damn, why are the Superlatives postponed?! I was QUITE looking forward to that.

    Anyhow.. I've been thinking lately that I don't really enjoy the idea of an Aggressor either as much as I believed I used to. There is something too tense about it all, not ever stable enough or calming enough.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Damn, why are the Superlatives postponed?! I was QUITE looking forward to that.
    I'm still tweaking the list a bit. I should have them up sometime soon, but I dont know when exactly, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Anyhow.. I've been thinking lately that I don't really enjoy the idea of an Aggressor either as much as I believed I used to. There is something too tense about it all, not ever stable enough or calming enough.
    I don't think anyone relishes the idea of being "Victim" or having to play an "Aggressor." I remember when I first read them, I absolutely hated them. I still hate them, and think they are overstated. I've since been able to see the tiny vibes that Gulenko must have picked up on when he formulated his erotic types, but the terminology still overstates the role that these dynamics play for two people.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Default Re: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship (Part 2)

    That description sounds more dysfunctional than anything else. I do not think that this one is as good as the last one you posted.

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    You think this one was dysfunctional, but the other one wasn't?
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    There are power plays yes, but like FDG, I would not say that there is any drama.

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    Yes, I think the natural homeostasis (in the Beta dual pairs at least) seems to be an equal balance of power. Any "games" that occur are, IME, merely a means of evening out this balance when things become one-sided. Nothing really dramatic. Just cutting your partner down to size.

    My intention was to make them both seem equally disturbing. I was actually expecting more responses in the vein of DiscoJoe's, as opposed to UDP/FDG's. Ah well. Try harder next time, I will.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    I've since been able to see the tiny vibes that Gulenko must have picked up on when he formulated his erotic types, but the terminology still overstates the role that these dynamics play for two people.
    Bingo.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    .

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    B-9

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    Well, now that you mention it...

    *sets up chairs and tables*

    First to correctly interpret 3 Reinin dichotomies in a row gets a prize!
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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