ESI-LSE Semi-Duality Relations (ISFj and ESTj)

[mr_maguoo]

My mum (ISFj) and new step-dad (ESTj) seem to clash where their secondary function is concerned ( and respectively).

How does this manifest? And how can the ISFj deal with the ESTj's and how can the ESTj deal with the ISFj's ?

[Gilly]

Holy shit, I feel so bad for you.

[mr_maguoo]

Well she likes to boss him around with he does not like this, but puts up with it because he doesn't like confronting people And she gets annoyed that he always has to tell the truth to strangers and has a problem lying, sometimes being brutually honest. I find it better to be dishonest in small ways so as not to hurt other people's feelings. There's a certain meaness in the ESTj's behaviour. Lack of

[Expat]

Why not ISTj for her?

[Slacker]

I have seen an ESTj/ISFj marriage. The ESTj likes to have fun and do things like drink and gamble a bit. Not to excess, but to the ISFj it is excessive. She doesn't like to see him feed his Si like that and considers it to be a moral weakness. I don't know them all that well so that's as far into it as I can go.

[mr_maguoo]

Why not ISTj for her?

She's not exactly like me. She's not particularly logical and she spends too much money. She'll make decisions based on shallow evidence. I prefer to ask questions to discover ALL of the relevant facts before making a definitive decision. She's very judgemental of people she finds unethical and manipulative it really upsets her (especially the sister of her new husband - don't know what type the sister is). Unethical people bother me too but not to that extent. And if she were an ISTj she'd find him a lot grumpier as I do.

[mr_maguoo]

No Deltas are replying to this thread because they are too self-centred.

[FDG]

Nobody really likes to be bossed around, and healthy ISFjs don't really do that except in crisis situations.

The situation is similar for what Slacker Mom says. There are plenty of ISFjs that like to drink, but just as many that consider it harmful.

[meatburger]

No Deltas are replying to this thread because they are too self-centred.

Hey i would like to help you out with this one dude as you seem like a good guy. I dont have any experience with this relation at all. I tend to get all my knowledge from experience, not overly good at hypothesizing what would help. Semi dual is a pretty good relation though i think.

[silke]

The relations between Driss and Philippe in the movie The Intouchables is a fictional example of what the better aspects of ESI-LSE semi-dual relations would be like, with Driss as ESI and Philippe as LSE. Several scenes in this movie also show democratic-artistocratic clash of values between them put in a comedic form.






Edit: Some posts about LSE-ESI semi-dual relations translated from Russian socionics forums

Wikisocion : Semi-Duality Observations

Oksana (ESI): I have met in my life both duals and semi-duals. LSE pressures too much for my taste. It is said that semi-duality is sufficiently comfortable, but the cutting off any initiatives that comes from Shtirlits is difficult. My mother is my semi-dual. I was working at a business that she owned and ran. She gathered us around and told us: "You will all work from 9 to 5." I stood there looking at her and thinking to myself "for what? why do this?" If the weather is bad, if there are no customers, if there is no trade, it's her private business and she doesn't owe it to anyone to keep it open, then why do we have to go out and work exactly 9 to 5? But if we don't work in this regime, it kills her, because "you have to", because this is how it should be.

When I finished my certification, I went to work as a nurse, and worked happily for 20 years until I got a LSE boss who started telling me how I should work. I quit that job. It was impossible. When someone stands above me and starts to impose their rules, their order, for example: "Why are there syringes located here? This is inconvenient." I said, "We put them there because it's comfortable for us to have them there." "No, this is uncomfortable. This is where it's most convenient to have them." She would move them 30 times of she had to. And all the dirt, all the blood, all the heavy equipment we had to move weren't as unpleasant to me as was this treatment that started to affect my work.

Olga (ESI): I've worked in an office with an LSE woman who lived in the same neighborhood and would give me rides. I work intensively and at a quick pace from 10 to 4 and get everything done that I need to do. The workday is until 5 but I can never leave at 5, I need to leave at 4 because I have already finished all my assignments. So we're together in a room, it's already 4:45, and if it was up to me I would have left already, while she tells me: "No, we still have 15 minutes to go. We need to sit here." This is so strange, it throws me off. And those who don't sit until 5, those people are seen as idlers and slackers. If the LIE understands that once you have finished your work, and you've finished it first ahead of everyone else, that you're the best, then the LSE cannot be persuaded. The LSE unlike the LIE doesn't understand that a person can manage their time themselves, there is no sense of personal time for them. This is the difference in valued intuition of time: once you've done your assignment, there is no sense to only remain at work.

Also LSEs sometimes tell frightening stories of the kind: "Imagine that this scary/negative thing could potentially happen." They just walk by and incidentally drop it by you without any unfriendly intent. For example: "What if they don't ask the questions you've prepared for on the exam?" The LSE starts to pump the ESI up this way. And the ESI on his/her own weak intuition listens to this and starts to believe it, think about it, he's already not sleeping nights and so on. For the ESI such communication is a true test of his or her nerves! The LSE drops such questions in "by the way" manner while I start considering them for real and I'm realdy thinking "what should i do?" Such communication isn't very uplifting and cheerful; the ESI starts feeling like she needs to dig up a trench and hide herself in it.

Another thing I don't like about LSEs is that they do a lot, but they want to be praised for it. My EII grandmother is very good at giving out praises, adoring others, being adulating and rewarding by her words, telling someone that she appreciates what they have done. I will say "thank you", but I'm not going to spend half an hour complimenting their work. While the LSE is waiting for it and takes offense otherwise. I say: "Then don't do it. If it's not needed, why even do this? Don't exert yourself to do something just to be praised." This is their suggestive Fi seeking, this searching for a constant source of gratefulness, positive emotion and ethical appraisal of their actions. For ESIs this works differently: I give as much as I can give without any expectations of being praised.

Galla (ESI): In interaction with an LSE there are a couple of very sharp underwater rocks. In general, these can be characterized as follows: for everyone around he will be great (which is what you will see initially, from a distance) and only you will experience the outbreaks of his anger and negativity (if you decide to become his other half)*. Sooner or later the LSE will try to make you live by his order and do what he sees as most rational. He has a very long inventory of "rules" with very little room to make appeals even if you ty to argue with him. Take a look at LSE's duals - are you prepared to break yourself and play such role? Initially you may see in him a kindred spirit, feel as if you have known each other an entire lifetime, but unfortunately the moment will come when you will realize how differently you see each other; the rift that separates you will become very apparent.
[*Notes: This is likely due to incompatibility on Process/Result trait of these types. The ESI is a Result type, while the LSE is a Process type. From an article: "Manifestations of negative personality traits at large distances and positive traits at short distances are characteristic in communication of Result types, while the reverse is true of Process types. Result types are thus more accommodating in close-range communication, while process types are more accommodating at larger distances." Initially the LSE will make a more positive impression on the ESI, which will change with the closing of the interpersonal distance (e.g. if they get married or cohabit extensively) and the LSE will start manifesting some of the more negative and harsh aspects of his or her personality.]

Poline (IEI): Thank you Galla for your post. I will sign to everything as you have stated it - either you will break as a person, or become a Cinderella. I very much respect EIIs, but even for them their own dual may be too much to handle. In the eyes of other people, the LSE often makes a positive impression - a handsome man, an ideal husband, and a caring father. And thus nobody will understand why his idiot of a wife is so unhappy with him. I know this by my own experience, and I've seen this in other families, and I looked at them with understanding. "Do you remember Peter? Such a great fellow! But he wasn't treated well by his wife who was simply too foolish and ungrateful to understand what a great husband she has."

Oskirych (LSE): The problems in LSE-ESI pair may arise over 1) differences of tastes 2) the stubbornness of both in keeping their "order" 3) and some other intimate details which I won't describe in detail. ESIs seem attractive and pleasant, but sometimes completely incomprehensible to the LSE, which brings up a sense of panic. I like that they don't ask too many questions about everything, unlike our duals EIIs. At the same time I can't live without all those questions, and after some time I even become offended if I'm not asked anything. Also, I never know how I should adjust myself to be more accommodating of ESIs, due to this there is a persistent sense of heaviness.

Niyazz (ESI): It's not necessary to readjust to us. The main thing is to not take our ethical shakedowns and "attacks" seriously, but do what LIEs do and respond with humor and personal warmth. LSEs seem to be constantly under strain and pressure, and thus they respond to our emotional escapades very aggressively, and too directly, instead of taking everything and converting it into a joke or diversion, as LIEs would do it.

glo (ESI): I have lived with an LSE for a year and it seems our relationship has reached a dead end. I try not introduce any negatives into our relations. However, my "sharp edges" i.e. my actions which he all of a sudden started calling "edgy" evoke the sort of categorical, uncompromising, and offensive to me reaction from him that I get the impression that I'm the only one who needs good relations. He can't just say: "It's unpleasant when you do this. Don't do it." He behaves in the manner: "Ah! You did this to me - so I'll do this to you!" And none of my words, pleas, explanations that I never wished him any harm, that it can still be fixed, can overturn his verdict. When I feel offended, I withdraw into myself and distance, but my LSE partner simply copies my behavior. Any apologies coming from me is my way of showing that I am ready for a dialogue, ready for compromises and concessions, and I expect something like this in return, but it never occurs. Right now the most painful problem for us is his excessive criticisms in my address. I get the impression that he takes note all my flaws and mistakes, which then makes me withdraw. While he says that he is simply expressing his honest opinion. But of this brings me down emotionally. I feel like I'm trying to adjust and find a common language but not seeing reciprocal steps from him.

Shinigani (ESI): ESI generally finds it difficult to explain anything extensively and thoroughly, explicitly with bullet points, i.e. in form most needed by LSEs and EIIs. ESI's approach is that everything should be understood from a couple brief comments and a telling look. When offended, an ESI often retreats into herself, keeps silent, distances and closes off. An offense shows that the other person is in the wrong to such an extent in ESI's eyes that it's difficult for the ESI to explain verbally. ESI's dual, the LIE, would have long ago lightened things up with humor, while LSE's dual, the EII, would have come up with a way to intuitively talk around and circumvent the problem; but when two negativist, tactical, sensing types such as ESI and LSE argue and clash, their stalemate can last for a long time.

Thus the time after an argument is best spent not on waiting for his next move, but on thinking over what exactly was offensive and how it can be mended. ESIs excel at clearly pointing out the main problems and rifts in relations. So perhaps write him a letter stating what you feel has gone wrong. It will be easier for you to formulate your thoughts in written form. I used to write to my LSE when I was angry with him. Later I felt ashamed and awkward, but he said he was taken in by reading these letters and always found something interesting in them for himself. A telling look and few phrases, which is characteristic of ESI explanations, won't be enough for an LSE. Once he goes on the defensive, this stand-off between you may last forever.

In some situations it's better to imagine yourself in role of his EII dual and simply say "yes, dear, you are right". Because he is right. Then repeat and press on your own opinion - because he is right, and you are also right. Imagine for yourself the "right" or "appropriate" way to behave and to speak around him, but later do as you wish. This is how an EII behaves herself, but for an ESI it is often inconceivable to be this way. Imagine that your LSE partner is oriented at constant, stable and assertive pressure being exerted on his suggestive Fi (from his declarative stubborn dual). He won't respond well to the "splashes" and "pour-outs" of Fi as it happens with ESIs when their exasperation passes all permissible levels.

ESIs often feel hurt by seemingly never-ending barrage of criticisms coming from an LSE on topic of "what isn't a good way to be" and what is "inexpedient" or "irrational" way to act. Think for a second - why was this criticism so hurtful? Because you didn't have enough know-how and strength yourself to see what was the right thing to do? Right? This means that you should ask for advice and help instead of distancing and closing yourself off to advice. Try to abstract away from the form and see the meaning behind these criticisms. It is for this meaning that EIIs are grateful to their duals and tell them "you are right, of course".

Osky (LSI): When EIIs come into conflict, they are given to self-analysis, examination and correction of their attitudes. At a first glance, ESIs seem to lack in such introspective ability. But this isn't really so. ESIs do analyze themselves but they don't bring up the results of this self-digging to the public view and speak of it as openly of as do EIIs. ESIs, as aggressors, view talking of their personal issues as a weakness, a chip in their armor. Therefore ESIs often create an inapproachable image for themselves, while EIIs who put their personal journeys trials and tribulations for public discourse seem more personable and accessible in how they present themselves.

JorgeSand (LSE): ESIs speak in too few words for me to understand what is their attitude towards something, what are they actually feeling and thinking. Thus I have to constantly prod them, engage them somehow, to get more of a response from them, a longer reply, though I think they enjoy this kind of attention. LSEs to them seem too restless, especially in comparison to their activators ILIs.
Someone wrote about LSEs having "strict set of rules", but which this I don't agree. There is a set of tried and tested methodologies that show what can be done and the most effective and efficient way to do it. Then there are methodologies that are in the phase of development, which the LSE will gladly put at ESI's disposal.

Baileys (ESI): Living together we have no problems with distributing tasks and finishing chores, but with some things like coordinating interior design or choosing furniture we have some disagreements over what each of us thinks is tasteful (perhaps different senses of taste are inherent to different quadra). Both of us are sensing types, so each of us has a strong sense of what he or she finds as attractive, tasteful, elegant and so on. Here our sensing functions begin to extinguish one another. For example, he liked drapes with a stripped design, while I said they were wonderful but the tint of the color wouldn't match with dark blue shades. He started to grumble and sat down with the look "choose by yourself now!". Each of us has a sense of confidence in their creative function, but when it's turned down then you suddenly end up feeling unwanted and unnecessary, having nothing to contribute and nothing to do. So the fact that our areas are confidence are the same causes complications. With food, I generally gravitate towards simple preparation and fresh quality products. I am fine with very simple and monotonous food, for example I can eat porridge every day for weeks. I keep very few cooking ingredients around. My LSE partner usually wants to experiment, to cook something unusual and new, and thus he stocks up on many different things. My frugality and simplicity isn't in his style. Some days he has to limit himself in his food experiments as it would take too much time to prepare something elaborate for himself and to cook something simple for me.

Loretta (ESE): I have rented a room in the home of an LSE-ESI pair for three years. They were happily married for 15 years to that point, and I consider their relations to be some of the most strong and long-lasting. Perhaps a dual marriage would have been even better for both, but they were very devoted to each other and understood each other from half a sentence. She thought that he was the best companion in any enterprise, while he thought that she deserves only the best as his wife, friend, and lover. In was obvious to me that they both were lacking in intuition. Both of them worked hard and worked honestly, but they did not understand in which direction they should move. They were afraid of the future, afraid to take risks. Both of them wanted to open their own business, but would stumble upon worries on the type "what if all of a sudden ..." and "who know what will come out of this ...". There was also a noticeable excess in sensing. Both the ESI and the LSE are quite materialistic and practical. On the bright side, their home was always overflowing with abundance. They both liked and knew how to receive guests. Both of of them were also very presentable. They paid extra attention to their appearance, their shoes, their clothing, their style, their cars, their furniture, and so on. However, this excess in sensorics wasn't the best for their son. While they worked hard and provided for him to have the best things in the world, they tried to steer himself towards "highest ranked" college rather than considering his own potential, talents, and preferences.

artina (IEI): My parents are LSE and ESI. They do well together, but they don't see their own mistakes in communication. The LSE tolerates all the acting out of ESI until a certain point when he begins to harshly point out all the mistakes and failings in ESI's actions in order to tame the ESI and bring her down. Here, the ESI needs to forgive more often and be more tolerant and positive towards the LSE.

[Beautiful sky]

They can't. They're not right for each other. ISFj are brutal and this doesn't fit the otherwise gentle loving ESTj.

[serenity]

They can't. They're not right for each other. ISFj are brutal and this doesn't fit the otherwise gentle loving ESTj.

Hum, "brutal", it's a bit harsh. I understand what you mean, but!...

By the way, I have an ESTj design graphic teacher (she's around 50 years old) and she's a fucking asshole. No gentleness or else in sight. She's so stiff and controlling. Everybody feel the same way toward her. She had numerous complaints against her. She thinks she's perfect and that she can teach everything in her domain. That's isn't true! And she has a fake way to express her supposed feelings of sadness due to the complains. Hopefully she will not teach next semester.

Maybe the ESTjs are more gentle with INFjs. Hopefully.

[blackburry]

This is an old thread with not much to offer.

[Beautiful sky]

Hum, "brutal", it's a bit harsh. I understand what you mean, but!...

By the way, I have an ESTj design graphic teacher (she's around 50 years old) and she's a fucking asshole. No gentleness or else in sight. She's so stiff and controlling. Everybody feel the same way toward her. She had numerous complaints against her. She thinks she's perfect and that she can teach everything in her domain. That's isn't true! And she has a fake way to express her supposed feelings of sadness due to the complains. Hopefully she will not teach next semester.

Maybe the ESTjs are more gentle with INFjs. Hopefully.

yeah, sorry about my comment. I really meant to say that ISFj are resolute and steadfast, sort of unbending and unwavering. I think that LSE prefer flexibility and softness. ESTj are mean and do put on a fake emotional attraction to them, they are very cold, strict, uncompromising, unapologetic and non of them evolve. Go figure.

[serenity]

yeah, sorry about my comment. I really meant to say that ISFj are resolute and steadfast, sort of unbending and unwavering. I think that LSE prefer flexibility and softness. ESTj are mean and do put on a fake emotional attraction to them, they are very cold, strict, uncompromising, unapologetic and non of them evolve. Go figure.

Heheh, nicely put.

[Soupman]

yeah, sorry about my comment. I really meant to say that ISFj are resolute and steadfast, sort of unbending and unwavering. I think that LSE prefer flexibility and softness. ESTj are mean and do put on a fake emotional attraction to them, they are very cold, strict, uncompromising, unapologetic and non of them evolve. Go figure.

I'm having trouble with an ESTJ guy who is undualized so he is pretty much unable reason intuitively, he is often baffled by how the same arguments I present simply fly over his head, but the ENTP whose become a mediator between us easily understands.

Lately we had an argument over the EJ vs IP work rhythm which is strange to him and all hell broke loses. Since I had postponed a simple task till te absolute deadline, he decided to call me lazy and that is where the argument got heated. I'm very assertive and very aggressive and worst of all, I'm fully utilitarian so I have no issue attacking the group itself when their interest seem irrational to me; I am a very difficult thorn, the ESTJ is always wary about confronting me.

The ESTJ thought that I should be given the least amount of work but the ENTP pretty much ignored that and he understands my intelligence and bizarre working rhythm so he didn't really care that I tend to have such an odd rhythm of working, but that wouldn't be surprising considering that we are both irrationals.

As irrationals we always meet deadlines in very odd ways and what I've learned is that our advantage we focus on actually what can be done, the actual options available which we then attach to the set targets, rather than asserting targets first before looking at what is possible. The idea that irrationals don't plan is very stupid and I find it to be false, we just have a different rhythm.

[blackburry]

The relations between Driss and Philippe in the movie The Intouchables is a fictional example of what the better aspects of ESI-LSE semi-dual relations would be like, with Driss as ESI and Philippe as LSE. Several scenes in this movie also show democratic-artistocratic clash of values between them put in a comedic form.

what?!?!?! I thought they were ILI (Phillipe) & SEE-Se (Driss)

[Emmym]

I see this pairing quite a bit actually. IME they don't usually squabble about Si vs Se, but Ni vs Ne. The LSE often lets things go until the deadline has passed which annoys the ESI to death. For example, the LSE will have terrible credit because, even though he has plenty of money, he always forgets to pay his bills on time. The ESI will sometimes take the money by force and go to pay it herself on the day of the deadline. Meanwhile the LSE is insisting that "there's still time" and they don't have to rush because the payment office doesn't close for two hours yet.

[ashlesha]

I see this pairing quite a bit actually. IME they don't usually squabble about Si vs Se, but Ni vs Ne. The LSE often lets things go until the deadline has passed which annoys the ESI to death. For example, the LSE will have terrible credit because, even though he has plenty of money, he always forgets to pay his bills on time. The ESI will sometimes take the money by force and go to pay it herself on the day of the deadline. Meanwhile the LSE is insisting that "there's still time" and they don't have to rush because the payment office doesn't close for two hours yet.

this reminds me of my relationship with an SLI. i would think an LSE would be more proactive?

[Emmym]

this reminds me of my relationship with an SLI. i would think an LSE would be more proactive?

Generally the LSE has a lot on his plate but fails to prioritize the items appropriately. ESEs, again in my experience, are like this as well. The LSE thinks he's capable of getting all of them done in time and doesn't realize how unlikely that is until he's already screwed himself. One LSE I know likes to appoint other people, such as his wife and sons, to pay attention to when things are due and take care of them so he can focus exclusively on his work. It's a little ridiculous to see them running all his errands for him, but it's a system they've been using for 20+ years.

[Beautiful sky]

What do you mean, "fake emotional attraction"? Do you mean they BS their self-presentation to seem nicer than they really are? If so, how do you relate this to type - Fe role?

hm, could this old post be an example?:


Also are the best promoters necessarily process due to their ability to present the right image? SEE and EIE are advertisers, propagandists, entertainers, show agents.
Finally, is there any relation between strongly sticking to "don't judge a book by its cover" and being result, @silke?

I'm a process type and don't focus on the image. Exrraverts like image stuff. Yes I presume that other people's attitude and the way that the environment in which the LSE is in effects their vital tonus. Plus they are very sensitive.