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Thread: Ti and Fi, then about Ne and Si

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    Default Ti and Fi, then about Ne and Si

    I was just out driving having a clove listening to some techno and I had a cool vision regarding Fi and Ti...

    Fi cannot accept that the subjective self has no purpose and is just a machine, things wich feel cannot be just machines.

    Ti cannot accept that it has less or more value than another human, human being defined as an object that thinks.

    After having realized this then intuiting about it I also realized that when I intuite heavily I touch my face and hair, and then realized that this might be Si coming out as a result of Ne. This part is just hypothesis for now because I have only myself to confirm this with.
    -Slava


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    After having realized this then intuiting about it I also realized that when I intuite heavily I touch my face and hair
    In the last season of Big Brother there was a hidden family couple amongst the players. When ENFps, ENFjs and INFps tried to guess which players are together in family not only they started touching they faces a lot but they leaned against the walls and their eyes screw up. When I intuit heavely I'm almost exactly the same.. I feel I can't find my place and sometimes I walk from one room to another...
    http://forum.socionix.com

    I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.

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    Maybe that sensational self stimulation is a way to keep ourselves grounded when we step so far to the edge of one percetion.
    -Slava


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    The subjective self you describe isn't a machine. It is a mask :wink: .

    The truth is out there...
    Beware! Nerd genes on the prowl.

    INFj - The Holy CPU Saint
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord
    The subjective self you describe isn't a machine. It is a mask :wink: .

    The truth is out there...

    I don't think you interpretted what I meant to say correctly, and I don't think I wrote it well enough... Let me rephrase... Fi people don't like to think of themselves as being simple organic machines. They like to think that everything that has feelings has a soul and is devine, and should not be thought of as an object.

    Ti people don't like to think of themselves as having more or less to offer to the group. They like to think of anything that can think as equal and try to ignore when power differences appear. (ie. they might ignore their friends humiliating defeat, and will ignore associated feelings)

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    So certain are you...

    Really, can you be sure you're right? Could it be that both sides have a grain of truth? Or maybe we just have to admit that the human species is more complex than we have come to believe through science?
    I, for one, know that humanity is far beyond the stage that could appropriately be called a "machine". Some reasons why:
    -We can ignore impulses
    -Input doesn't always equal output
    -Self-programming
    -Incomplete self awareness
    -Sentience
    -Subconscious self-repair
    I have myself contemplated the possibility that we are just over-evolved sentient biological machines. I have come to see that we are past the stage where the term "machine" can be used accurately. Granted, that may very well be how we started out. Now, that is no longer the truth.

    also, I have a smart-sounding scientific-ish explanation for the possibility of a soul, if you want to hear it. It would probably bore you right out of your collective minds.

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    Sorry, the cat played P-ka-boo with my computer .
    Beware! Nerd genes on the prowl.

    INFj - The Holy CPU Saint
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    Fi cannot accept that the subjective self has no purpose and is just a machine, things wich feel cannot be just machines.

    Ti cannot accept that it has less or more value than another human, human being defined as an object that thinks.
    I used to relate heavily with the Fi view, and I still relate heavily with the Ti view.

    edit:

    After having realized this then intuiting about it I also realized that when I intuite heavily I touch my face and hair, and then realized that this might be Si coming out as a result of Ne. This part is just hypothesis for now because I have only myself to confirm this with.
    And you move your hands around alot when you speak, increasing the movement when you must process more information at one time, right? It happens to me too.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    So certain are you...

    Really, can you be sure you're right? Could it be that both sides have a grain of truth?
    the moment you typed "truth" you failed. there is no truth in subjectivity, and the struggles and rationalizations between Ti/Fi being discussed here are definitely subjective. as for the rest of your post, yes, interesting, but you have to realize the human mind can never fully understand itself, because, like all systems, it can only prove what it knows about itself using only the knowledge it knows about itself. this, for example, is the gargantuan (and even philosophic.. what makes a human human, etc) hurdle for Artificial Intelligence. however, these are all just a bunch of cold Ti musings. and who needs Ti anyways, it can't even understand itself, right? well, i guess that's where Fi comes in, i just wish i had more of it..

    p.s. i'd enjoy hearing your soul theory
    lol

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    Even trying to define "truth" is a massive excercise in pointlessness, and thinking we know it the very peak of arrogance. My point was that we can't be sure what is true.

    As for my soul theory, realize that it is all pseudo-scientific garbage:
    I think the neural activity in the brain spark a process on the quantum level, setting in motion an indefinite process that continues on its own even after the brain itself has been destroyed. Further, I think that this process is the source of all sentience.

    Of course, it is all Fi BS, made in order to illusionize myself into thinking life has a meaning... Right?
    Or could it be that objectivity can also fail?
    Beware! Nerd genes on the prowl.

    INFj - The Holy CPU Saint
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    I was originally just pointing out correlations in common belief differences that I noticed between Ti and Fi, but if you would like to hear my view of the soul, here it is...

    There is no reason in evolution that a soul must be eternal. It is innefficient and therefore would not be favored by natural selection.
    The belief in a soul however does serve a purpose for ethical calculations which cannot be performed if a life form is thought of as an object.
    We tend to consider, things, life forms when they display qualities that aproach our own. We find common ground with the entity, and can then coexist and have good feelings for them. The soul, as I a Ti type, see it is a concept which has to do with a feeling (all mechanical) that one gets when observing another life form.

    Of course there is a possibility that souls can exist in another dimension where they can intersect with the physical world by means of a brain, but why would brain damage in specific areas change the soul then?

    If you go with the model that humans have evolved from particles which are constantly anealed by chaos then by chance (with infinite time) fell into a pattern of evolution, and evolution of evolution itself, then everything works. I can write a computer program that upon detecting other programs prints out a string, "I detect a soul of another like myself" (if detect(soul) then feeling = warmth), but what does that mean? Absolutely nothing. All of our opinions are based on a perception, logic even is a judgement perception, a lense, however logic can also take into account everyone elses subjective values and come to a conclusion based on the difference in values and patterns, and these patterns filter out reality, from what humans need to believe to live happily. I'm totally for the truth, to the extreme where I will look for truths that can break down my common beliefs that let me function in society, but to me it's what I was born to do.

    Edit: And by the way, when I said... "Fi cannot accept that the subjective self has no purpose and is just a machine, things wich feel cannot be just machines." I didn't say the being machine thing is true, I just said that Fi people cannot accept this even if it were true.
    -Slava


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    As for my personal opinions about humans, I think they are most likely machines through my logic, and I will present my arguments...

    Really, can you be sure you're right? Could it be that both sides have a grain of truth? Or maybe we just have to admit that the human species is more complex than we have come to believe through science?

    --- It is very complex indeed.

    I, for one, know that humanity is far beyond the stage that could appropriately be called a "machine".

    --- Lets see why...

    Some reasons why:
    -We can ignore impulses

    --- So can a dog, that ballances the impulse with possibility of death. There are just more internal layers of processing in humans more analog weighing systems.

    -Input doesn't always equal output

    --- Because like I said there are many more layers to the processing. For example a letter arrives at a house, that doesn't mean a letter will be sent out in reply. Maybe its junk mail and is ignored, maybe its just a thank you card, or maybe its a bill and must then be replied to.

    -Self-programming

    --- What makes self programming devices to human? My car's ECU computer system learns and tweaks data tables based on the environmental changes, in fact it can even rev the engine all on its own in order to sweep every RPM so that it can learn all the engine values at all possible angular speeds. So what?

    -Incomplete self awareness

    --- What is self awareness? Is that like when a robot sees itself in the mirror and logically comes to the conclusion that its a machine?

    -Sentience

    --- Same response as above

    -Subconscious self-repair

    --- My car has a check engine light, and I'm pretty sure another computer could fix my car after retrieving the error codes and doing diagnostics.

    I have myself contemplated the possibility that we are just over-evolved sentient biological machines. I have come to see that we are past the stage where the term "machine" can be used accurately. Granted, that may very well be how we started out. Now, that is no longer the truth.

    --- So what suddenly happened to make us so different from other animals? Why are we so special? If we are better through evolution then can you accept that humans can be compared to one another in ability and overall rank?

    also, I have a smart-sounding scientific-ish explanation for the possibility of a soul, if you want to hear it. It would probably bore you right out of your collective minds.

    --- Sure
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    I quite deliberately left out other animals, as I'm neither a dog nor a parrot, and hence can make no judgments on their soul or lack of one. I'll leave it up to their possible respective deities, further evolutionary processes and/or possible mental processes to determine this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    So can a dog, that ballances the impulse with possibility of death. There are just more internal layers of processing in humans more analog weighing systems.
    Yes, but a dog can't commit suicide deliberately. I could go right now and stab myself in the heart, if that proves anything. (Ok, I'd probably not stab myself. That is just a horrible thought. But, say, shoot myself, instead) I wouldn't have any great motivation or reason. Whereas a dog with opposable thumbs that had magically gotten a loaded gun, the understanding of what it does and the mental capacity to use it against itself would never be able to. We have the same mental blocks as the "lesser" (Not really lesser, just a figure of speech) animals. However, we can override them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Because like I said there are many more layers to the processing. For example a letter arrives at a house, that doesn't mean a letter will be sent out in reply. Maybe its junk mail and is ignored, maybe its just a thank you card, or maybe its a bill and must then be replied to.
    Yes. But we can choose to react to stimulation or not to, to a certain degree. I can watch a movie that makes me sad. I choose for myself whether I cry or not (Usually not), whereas a regular I=O machine would look at the variables and make the same decision again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    What makes self programming devices to human? My car's ECU computer system learns and tweaks data tables based on the environmental changes, in fact it can even rev the engine all on its own in order to sweep every RPM so that it can learn all the engine values at all possible angular speeds. So what?
    Yes, but it doesn't ponder the meaning of RPMs and make up its own hokey theories. And it can't choose not to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    What is self awareness? Is that like when a robot sees itself in the mirror and logically comes to the conclusion that its a machine?
    Self awareness is when you can say "I" and mean it. Self awareness is when the robot can look in the mirror and, by any means, come to the conclusion that what it sees is itself. Of course, if it is preprogrammed to see anything that has certain aspects with it as "reflection=me", then this test wouldn't work. It would have to have been derived from other lines of programming by itself.
    Sentience is when it can look into the mirror, see itself, and truly understand the implications: "Holy baloney, that little silvery guy over there, that's me!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    My car has a check engine light, and I'm pretty sure another computer could fix my car after retrieving the error codes and doing diagnostics.
    Good luck having that process run constantly with the only input being disintegrated goo form a hole in the roof, though. Also, that computer would have to be a separate entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by slava
    So what suddenly happened to make us so different from other animals? Why are we so special? If we are better through evolution then can you accept that humans can be compared to one another in ability and overall rank?
    Nothing. Random evolutionary patterns. bits and pieces of info stored over the ages. Very unusual conditions. We aren't better than the other animals, we are just different. Although i must admit that I (Wahoo, I'm sentient!) personally am very glad that I'm human.
    As for being equal, whoopdeedoo ! Cause that's not exactly the same thing I've been going around saying to anybody who would listen for years. Hitler was no less a good person being than Gandhi was, and Martin Luther King, Jr., no better than Count Vlad Tepes. It is all about mental dysfunction and disproportionate portrayal.

    As for the soul, who said it was eternal? I just said it continued existing after death.
    Beware! Nerd genes on the prowl.

    INFj - The Holy CPU Saint
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    I quite deliberately left out other animals, as I'm neither a dog nor a parrot, and hence can make no judgments on their soul or lack of one. I'll leave it up to their possible respective deities, further evolutionary processes and/or possible mental processes to determine this.

    ------ If you cannot externally see if an animal has a soul, how can you be sure other humans do? What is a soul anyways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    So can a dog, that ballances the impulse with possibility of death. There are just more internal layers of processing in humans more analog weighing systems.
    Yes, but a dog can't commit suicide deliberately. I could go right now and stab myself in the heart, if that proves anything. (Ok, I'd probably not stab myself. That is just a horrible thought. But, say, shoot myself, instead) I wouldn't have any great motivation or reason. Whereas a dog with opposable thumbs that had magically gotten a loaded gun, the understanding of what it does and the mental capacity to use it against itself would never be able to. We have the same mental blocks as the "lesser" (Not really lesser, just a figure of speech) animals. However, we can override them.

    ------ Why can't dogs commit suicide? Foxes are known to chew off their own legs to get out of traps, thats even more impulse control than most people have. And you cannot commit suicde either for no reason. You can say you would but you won't and you haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Because like I said there are many more layers to the processing. For example a letter arrives at a house, that doesn't mean a letter will be sent out in reply. Maybe its junk mail and is ignored, maybe its just a thank you card, or maybe its a bill and must then be replied to.
    Yes. But we can choose to react to stimulation or not to, to a certain degree. I can watch a movie that makes me sad. I choose for myself whether I cry or not (Usually not), whereas a regular I=O machine would look at the variables and make the same decision again.

    ------ How do you know you have choice? How do you know you aren't programmed to just think you have choice so that your psych doesn't break down? What is you? Is there such a thing as choice or maybe its just a concept or word made by people to describe what they think "feels" like free will? What is will... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    What makes self programming devices to human? My car's ECU computer system learns and tweaks data tables based on the environmental changes, in fact it can even rev the engine all on its own in order to sweep every RPM so that it can learn all the engine values at all possible angular speeds. So what?
    Yes, but it doesn't ponder the meaning of RPMs and make up its own hokey theories. And it can't choose not to.

    ------ It doesn't need to ponder it, so computer scientists don;t waste time and resources making it ponder. But if you simulate an environment on the pc where things can evolve and promote survival then you will see simple organism emerge that do in fact, ponder, but not liek you and I do, so you wouldn't accept that they are alive, because your mind is just designed that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    What is self awareness? Is that like when a robot sees itself in the mirror and logically comes to the conclusion that its a machine?
    Self awareness is when you can say "I" and mean it. Self awareness is when the robot can look in the mirror and, by any means, come to the conclusion that what it sees is itself. Of course, if it is preprogrammed to see anything that has certain aspects with it as "reflection=me", then this test wouldn't work. It would have to have been derived from other lines of programming by itself.
    Sentience is when it can look into the mirror, see itself, and truly understand the implications: "Holy baloney, that little silvery guy over there, that's me!"

    ------ What do you mean by mean it? Theres no such thing as meaning something. Thats another human made word that doesnt say much. I can make a program the uses raw logic to question its own existance and it will do that, might even get stuck in a loop that would make it unable to process other things... kind alike humans...


    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    My car has a check engine light, and I'm pretty sure another computer could fix my car after retrieving the error codes and doing diagnostics.
    Good luck having that process run constantly with the only input being disintegrated goo form a hole in the roof, though. Also, that computer would have to be a separate entity.

    ------ Whats a separate entity? A device that considers itself a separate entity? Why cant the car fix itself using periferal tools or onboard cnc to replicate its own parts? It can. The entity is the part that has the concept of I and the parts replication system doesn't need that.

    Quote Originally Posted by slava
    So what suddenly happened to make us so different from other animals? Why are we so special? If we are better through evolution then can you accept that humans can be compared to one another in ability and overall rank?
    Nothing. Random evolutionary patterns. bits and pieces of info stored over the ages. Very unusual conditions. We aren't better than the other animals, we are just different. Although i must admit that I (Wahoo, I'm sentient!) personally am very glad that I'm human.

    ------ This I agree with

    As for being equal, whoopdeedoo ! Cause that's not exactly the same thing I've been going around saying to anybody who would listen for years. Hitler was no less a good person being than Gandhi was, and Martin Luther King, Jr., no better than Count Vlad Tepes. It is all about mental dysfunction and disproportionate portrayal.

    ------ Agree

    As for the soul, who said it was eternal? I just said it continued existing after death.

    ------ Ok so say its not eternal but lives after the body... same argument as before though.
    -Slava


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    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord
    Yes, but it doesn't [...] make up its own hokey theories.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord
    Sentience is when it can look into the mirror, see itself, and truly understand the implications: "Holy baloney, that little silvery guy over there, that's me!"
    Yes, but how do you know that it is really understanding and not just emulating understanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    I can make a program the uses raw logic to question its own existance and it will do that, might even get stuck in a loop that would make it unable to process other things... kind alike humans...


    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord
    Although i must admit that I (Wahoo, I'm sentient!) personally am very glad that I'm human.
    But maybe you only think you are...
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    But maybe you only think you are...
    Oh, I've asked myself that question many times believe you me. Can I be sure that this is not a computer simulation, and me the application being tested? Maybe I'm a new prototype android? Or could I be an alien in disguise who has had his memory temporarily blocked for security reasons? Maybe I'm a demon in human form? Maybe this is all an illusion and me a monkey brain on steroids in a jar?
    In the end, however, Occam's Razor gets the choice cut of meat in all these cases, and I end up with the label "human". Also, aren;t those ideas above a bit arrogant? Many of them basically say "I'm so special", or "The world really revolves around me".


    I think Slava's point has been proven. Also, it has certainly been shown off that we will never agree on this: Me, all bright and cheery, trying to pour some of the mystery back on the world, while the realistic crowd stands around saying "Lay it off, will you? It's pointless. Why should things be that way when it all works this way?"
    Beware! Nerd genes on the prowl.

    INFj - The Holy CPU Saint
    Dishonorary INFp
    Baah

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    Let's all just get drunk and party
    -Slava


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