Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 78

Thread: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship

  1. #1
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship

    nt
    Last edited by Animal; 06-23-2010 at 06:34 PM.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Florida
    TIM
    ILE 8w9
    Posts
    3,249
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is true for ENFjs. It sounds right with a relationship between me and an ENFj I once had.

  3. #3
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ah great. Good to know. What type are you Jimbean, btw?
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  4. #4
    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    TIM
    Beta sx 3w4;7w8
    Posts
    3,401
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Auvi, could you maybe give a Real Life example of this occurring between a Victim and Aggressor? That first post was great, nicely written, but I still can't quite see how it would work... I mean, I am definitely a Victim.. I think I "challenge" the Aggressor by being really stand-offish because of my anxiety/paranoia about the state of the relationship and keep pushing it and being annoying, really wanting them to just say everything is fine in a willful way and kiss me.

    I want them to want me, basically, and I want them to show me that through their aggression, there is no room for doubts. I am constantly worried, doubting. I need reassurance... but I play and "act" as if I don't care, but inside there is a lot of turmoil. I will grow cold, not be affectionate, see if that bothers them but secretly want them to just take me in their arms..


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
    Johari
    Nohari

  5. #5
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sure thing. Basically, the Victim wants to have a sense of control of the emotional tonus of the relationship. If the Aggressor comes on too strong and tries to force that power away from you, you'll probably end up rejecting them. You need someone who will accept your role as the person who sets the pace for the relationship, but will confirm for you that they really, really want you.

    For example (and this is a slightly over-the-top example, but it's happened), at a party a guy might come up to you and demand that you get down an dirty with him right then and there. You might be attracted to his confidence, but will probably be turned off by the fleeting and superficial nature of his advances. What's more, it's premature. There's no romance. It's just crude sex that you'll most probably regret later. You might act cold. Possibly trying to stir up something - willfully ruffling up his emotions and trying to get a feel for his reactions. If the guy gets frustrated that you're being so hard-to-get, you know he probably doesn't have any feelings for you other than just wanting to have sex with you. If he doesn't - if he plays along and puts up with your game - you naturally feel more connected with him and are more willing to accept his advances.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  6. #6
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship...

    Do you think there is any difference between rational and irrational V/A interactoins?



    My reaction:

    [spoil:807df5a1bb]
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    This is my interpretation (though, from the Victim's point of view):

    The Victim will at first put up a fight. He will build simultaneously a feeling of tension and comfort between himself and his partner. The Aggressor must undertake these challenges with grace under fire. She must never show anger. Must never show weakness of will or affection. Most importantly, she must not break under the strain of the tension her partner is building. In fact, must be comfortable and at home with the suspense - excited by it, even. This tension will build to an almost sadistic and animalistic apex. When the suspense becomes suddenly unbearable, the Victim will at once soften to his partner's advances. Will say by word or by gesture: "I am yours." And will submit himself to his partner's appetite and allow himself to be entirely vulnerable, such that the purest form of intimacy can be achieved. The Victim's greatest pleasure is to see how happy he is making his Aggressor. The intimacy will build until climax.

    Then all cools for a while. Warm, affectionate feelings remain, but the gauntlet is thrown down once again to be scaled once more.
    No fucking way - not in my house.


    That description is completely unappealing - all sorts of wasted energy and time.

    . In fact, must be comfortable and at home with the suspense - excited by it, even.
    No way. I am way too domineering to put up with any of that. None of that is intriguing or peaceful to me.


    There will be peace in our relationship or there will not be one. Deal with it.[/spoil:807df5a1bb]
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  7. #7
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Sure thing. Basically, the Victim wants to have a sense of control of the emotional tonus of the relationship. If the Aggressor comes on too strong and tries to force that power away from you, you'll probably end up rejecting them. You need someone who will accept your role as the person who sets the pace for the relationship, but will confirm for you that they really, really want you.
    That seems totally beta though. Is gamma that way too?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  8. #8
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Gamma probably works somewhat differently. The Victim uses Te instead of Fe to "challenge" the Aggressor. But the underlying framework remains the same, IME - Se (physical action), tempered by Ni (intuiting the future implications of that action). I'm not sure there would be too much of a difference between the rational and irrational V/A pairings.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  9. #9
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Mm-hm. Sounds about right.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  10. #10
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think when the aggressor is the introvert, the victim is more of an initiator than with ESxp/INxp relations. The victim gives the aggressor cues, and the aggressor responds decisively, taking the steps the victim is hinting they should take.

  11. #11
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Makes sense.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  12. #12
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default Re: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    This is my interpretation (though, from the Victim's point of view):

    The Victim will at first put up a fight. He will build simultaneously a feeling of tension and comfort between himself and his partner. The Aggressor must undertake these challenges with grace under fire. She must never show anger. Must never show weakness of will or affection. Most importantly, she must not break under the strain of the tension her partner is building. In fact, must be comfortable and at home with the suspense - excited by it, even. This tension will build to an almost sadistic and animalistic apex. When the suspense becomes suddenly unbearable, the Victim will at once soften to his partner's advances. Will say by word or by gesture: "I am yours." And will submit himself to his partner's appetite and allow himself to be entirely vulnerable, such that the purest form of intimacy can be achieved. The Victim's greatest pleasure is to see how happy he is making his Aggressor. The intimacy will build until climax.

    Then all cools for a while. Warm, affectionate feelings remain, but the gauntlet is thrown down once again to be scaled once more.
    Heh, that definitely sounds familiar to me, almost eerily so. What's funny is that all the good relationships/flings I've had in the past involved this type of interaction to a noticeable degree. And guess what?! The ones that sucked had none of this. Certainly not just a coincidence.

    The Aggressor must undertake these challenges with grace under fire. She must never show anger. Must never show weakness of will or affection. Most importantly, she must not break under the strain of the tension her partner is building.
    I certainly do follow this IRL. If I'm ever bitching on here about some dominant person I know, it's because I'm not doing it IRL, and I have to channel all the shit elsewhere.

    In fact, must be comfortable and at home with the suspense - excited by it, even.
    The suspense is what makes the chase extremely fun, IMO.


    Anyways, great description, Auvi. I'll make one from the Aggressor point of view sometime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    No fucking way - not in my house.


    That description is completely unappealing - all sorts of wasted energy and time.
    Is that why you never get laid?
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  13. #13
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship...

    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    No fucking way - not in my house.


    That description is completely unappealing - all sorts of wasted energy and time.
    Is that why you never get laid?
    What, do you want a podium to brag about how many people you let get inside of you?
    Go ahead.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  14. #14
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default



    (imo, the fewer people someone has slept with the more attractive they are)

  15. #15
    reyn_til_runa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    new jersey
    Posts
    1,009
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Gamma probably works somewhat differently. The Victim uses Te instead of Fe to "challenge" the Aggressor. But the underlying framework remains the same, IME - Se (physical action), tempered by Ni (intuiting the future implications of that action). I'm not sure there would be too much of a difference between the rational and irrational V/A pairings.
    well said.

    yes, sex is a predictable course along a long line of miniscule (not-even-a-bleep-on- the-stimulation radar) events.

    that is why when i cannot intuit the future implications of an action, i turn cold. an example is my ESFp ex at a few points successfully recording our sessions without my knowledge. even though my general attitude probably gave him the idea that "anything goes, even when anything is out of sequence" it is really more like "anything goes as long as i am not surprised and not taken advantage of."

    not being surprised is not necessarily boring, keep in mind.

    ever be able to predict exactly what will happen yet still feel the power of orchestrating the events? this is how i feel when sex is at it's best. ideally, i let most anything be done to me and do most anything to the other person, yet must know the parameters intuitively. as a victim type, it's crucial for there to be no overt control outside the bedroom. this may be why i do not like being blindfolded despite liking far more damaging things during sex -- because i need to be able to see from outside myself.
    whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.

    Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee

  16. #16
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default Re: On the Victim + Aggressor Relationship...

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    No fucking way - not in my house.


    That description is completely unappealing - all sorts of wasted energy and time.
    Is that why you never get laid?
    What, do you want a podium to brag about how many people you let get inside of you?
    Go ahead.
    Hahaha, someone sure is bitter!
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  17. #17
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Herzy, you're a virgin.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  18. #18
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't relate to this stuff.
    I'm a male, and a strong extravert. So this means I just take all the fucking initiative in all the relationships I've had. Yeah yeah if I had to wait out to "give clues" I'd still be a fucking virgin because, maybe again we're just too horny here, because in 2 weeks you have your girl stolen if you don't take the initiative.

    in my experience with isfj, infp, istj (the onyl types ive dated) it goes like this

    FDG to girl "HEY WANNA GO OUT"
    girl to FDG: (inside her head: omg he wants just to fuck me leave me prego and then fly to another country): NO nononononono
    FDG: FINE BYE

    after 2 weeks

    FDG to girl: HEY WANNA GO OUT
    girl to FDG: (insider her head: ok im getting bored here at home doing nothing, ill just bring some anti rape spray with me): maybe one time if you ask me once more and insist a bit
    FDG to girl: HEY WANNA GO OUT
    girl to FDG: okay
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  19. #19
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    yeah, gender roles suck ass

  20. #20
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Anyways, great description, Auvi. I'll make one from the Aggressor point of view sometime soon.
    I look forward to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
    yes, sex is a predictable course along a long line of miniscule (not-even-a-bleep-on- the-stimulation radar) events.

    that is why when i cannot intuit the future implications of an action, i turn cold. an example is my ESFp ex at a few points successfully recording our sessions without my knowledge. even though my general attitude probably gave him the idea that "anything goes, even when anything is out of sequence" it is really more like "anything goes as long as i am not surprised and not taken advantage of."

    not being surprised is not necessarily boring, keep in mind.

    ever be able to predict exactly what will happen yet still feel the power of orchestrating the events? this is how i feel when sex is at it's best. ideally, i let most anything be done to me and do most anything to the other person, yet must know the parameters intuitively. as a victim type, it's crucial for there to be no overt control outside the bedroom. this may be why i do not like being blindfolded despite liking far more damaging things during sex -- because i need to be able to see from outside myself.
    Most definitely. The best experiences are strangely familiar while still being vivid. And I need that sense of familiarity - that I'm playing out something archetypal function that will come to an inevitable climax. Otherwise, it feels alien and empty.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I don't relate to this stuff.
    I'm a male, and a strong extravert. So this means I just take all the fucking initiative in all the relationships I've had. Yeah yeah if I had to wait out to "give clues" I'd still be a fucking virgin because, maybe again we're just too horny here, because in 2 weeks you have your girl stolen if you don't take the initiative.

    in my experience with isfj, infp, istj (the onyl types ive dated) it goes like this

    FDG to girl "HEY WANNA GO OUT"
    girl to FDG: (inside her head: omg he wants just to fuck me leave me prego and then fly to another country): NO nononononono
    FDG: FINE BYE

    after 2 weeks

    FDG to girl: HEY WANNA GO OUT
    girl to FDG: (insider her head: ok im getting bored here at home doing nothing, ill just bring some anti rape spray with me): maybe one time if you ask me once more and insist a bit
    FDG to girl: HEY WANNA GO OUT
    girl to FDG: okay
    Well this is actually pretty much in line with what I was saying. Only it's the Se, action-oriented, aspect of the equation. (As per being a dude in an excessively horny society, I have no clue. I don't do the bar/club dating scene in my city. There you mostly only meet the sort of people that drive me more than slightly homicidal - yuppies, guidos, Lincoln Park trixies (they're not just in Chicago anymore), poseurs, plastic surgeons, you know the like. God I hate them all.)
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  21. #21
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    yeah, gender roles suck ass
    I'm generally attracted to slightly femminine girls (at least in the relationship roles sense) so it's usually not a problem. There's some unspoken rule of attraction in my opinion, that makes two similar poles repel.

    Baby: I don't know, why then all the Se-creative girls I've dated behaved that way? Shouldn't have they hunt my cock down with a knife?
    In any case yes the bar scene is where that problem reaches its apex but it's actually pretty widespread.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  22. #22
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    yeah, gender roles suck ass
    I'm generally attracted to slightly femminine girls (at least in the relationship roles sense) so it's usually not a problem. There's some unspoken rule of attraction in my opinion, that makes two similar poles repel.
    I've always had a more stereotypical "male" role in my relationships, even to the extent of wanting a stay at home spouse. Guys have complained that I'm not "romantic", too.

  23. #23
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    yeah, gender roles suck ass
    I'm generally attracted to slightly femminine girls (at least in the relationship roles sense) so it's usually not a problem. There's some unspoken rule of attraction in my opinion, that makes two similar poles repel.
    I've always had a more stereotypical "male" role in my relationships, even to the extent of wanting a stay at home spouse. Guys have complained that I'm not "romantic", too.
    eheh, i dont think a guy can complain about that in a girlfriend. if you have chosen it, you can't complain! anyway, I think I don't have a very strong male role, but at least clearly defined, yes.

    i don't believe in gender roles anyway. i think each person has a preference, not strictly dependant on his/her sex.

    Anyway, why do you people think what I posted is Se? Wouldnt a Se person be less straighforward and more concerned about keeping the upper hand?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  24. #24
    Quirk Satellite Div.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Out of range. Please call your service provider.
    Posts
    424
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Anyway, why do you people think what I posted is Se? Wouldnt a Se person be less straighforward and more concerned about keeping the upper hand?
    You are correct, that type of conversation doesn't point to a typical dominants style of attack. However, the way the conversation is conveyed points to a style of summarizing(essentially leaving out the subtlety and wit) that ESTp's use to show how they were able to get the ball moving.


    And unfortunately, I cannot give any personal contributions to this thread.
    PoLR
    Suggestive Function

    Regular Double-shot Espresso Subtype

    Just because I'm a thinking type doesn't mean I'm not an idiot.

  25. #25
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Baby: I don't know, why then all the Se-creative girls I've dated behaved that way? Shouldn't have they hunt my cock down with a knife?
    In any case yes the bar scene is where that problem reaches its apex but it's actually pretty widespread.
    Wait... do you mean that every relationship you've ever been in has progressed in exactly the same way? You're sure that you just aren't picking up the sort of things that make each time different?

    I haven't really heard the other side of the equation in my relationships with Se-women. I do know that when my ESTp guy friends talk about relationships, it tends to sound like this:
    - "Damn that bitch got a fine ass"
    - "Did you see the way she looked at me?"
    - "I told that doll off and called her a slut in front of her friends."
    - "Man I was so drunk." (<- This has more to do with ESTp relationships that one would guess.)
    - "I want to fuck fat bitches. Fat. Black. Bitches."
    - "What do I do, man? I swear she's fucking trying to kill me."

    Good people.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  26. #26
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    i don't believe in gender roles anyway. i think each person has a preference, not strictly dependant on his/her sex.
    same here

  27. #27
    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    TIM
    Beta sx 3w4;7w8
    Posts
    3,401
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Baby: I don't know, why then all the Se-creative girls I've dated behaved that way? Shouldn't have they hunt my cock down with a knife?
    In any case yes the bar scene is where that problem reaches its apex but it's actually pretty widespread.
    Wait... do you mean that every relationship you've ever been in has progressed in exactly the same way? You're sure that you just aren't picking up the sort of things that make each time different?

    I haven't really heard the other side of the equation in my relationships with Se-women. I do know that when my ESTp guy friends talk about relationships, it tends to sound like this:
    - "Damn that bitch got a fine ass"
    - "Did you see the way she looked at me?"
    - "I told that doll off and called her a slut in front of her friends."
    - "Man I was so drunk." (<- This has more to do with ESTp relationships that one would guess.)
    - "I want to fuck fat bitches. Fat. Black. Bitches."
    - "What do I do, man? I swear she's fucking trying to kill me."

    Good people.
    Which is why I hate these kinds of ESTps. How can INFps be their Duals?


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
    Johari
    Nohari

  28. #28
    heath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,722
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    lots of dumb helpless infps.
    asd

  29. #29
    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    TIM
    It sneaks up on you
    Posts
    3,051
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^ Heath speaks truth.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  30. #30
    aka-kitsune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    966
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    lots of dumb helpless infps.
    Unnecessary roughness: 2-minute penalty.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    233
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    So will victims generally try to test their aggressor and try to act coy as a means to sustain interest? Is this due to some insecurity on their part? They need to be reassured?

  32. #32
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,481
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    massive bump my love.

    For your question, I cannot answer, sorry.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  33. #33
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,169
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    This is my interpretation (though, from the Victim's point of view):

    The Victim will at first put up a fight. He will build simultaneously a feeling of tension and comfort between himself and his partner. The Aggressor must undertake these challenges with grace under fire. She must never show anger. Must never show weakness of will or affection. Most importantly, she must not break under the strain of the tension her partner is building. In fact, must be comfortable and at home with the suspense - excited by it, even. This tension will build to an almost sadistic and animalistic apex. When the suspense becomes suddenly unbearable, the Victim will at once soften to his partner's advances. Will say by word or by gesture: "I am yours." And will submit himself to his partner's appetite and allow himself to be entirely vulnerable, such that the purest form of intimacy can be achieved. The Victim's greatest pleasure is to see how happy he is making his Aggressor. The intimacy will build until climax.

    Then all cools for a while. Warm, affectionate feelings remain, but the gauntlet is thrown down once again to be scaled once more.
    Yeah, I can flow with that. Sounds like the Eight's love of fighting and sex mingled.

  34. #34
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    So will victims generally try to test their aggressor and try to act coy as a means to sustain interest? Is this due to some insecurity on their part? They need to be reassured?
    They/we do act coy. I think it's because we want to be sure we're really wanted and not just being toyed with or chosen as the woman du jour.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    233
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Gamma probably works somewhat differently. The Victim uses Te instead of Fe to "challenge" the Aggressor. But the underlying framework remains the same, IME - Se (physical action), tempered by Ni (intuiting the future implications of that action). I'm not sure there would be too much of a difference between the rational and irrational V/A pairings.
    Does anyone have examples of Te and Fe cues?

    Thanks for the reply, redbaron. I wish I were an SLE so IEIs were my duals <3

  36. #36
    idolatrie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    413
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    Does anyone have examples of Te and Fe cues?
    Hmm, I'm totally guessing here, but I would think that Te cues would be more about your ability to do stuff, and Fe cues would be more on you as a person.

    So like, a Te jibe would be 'you fail' or 'why can't you do that', and a Fe one would be 'you suck' or 'what's wrong with you'.

    I don't know...that doesn't seem quite right though. Um...thoughts, someone else?
    allez cuisine!

  37. #37
    unefille's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    841
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    So will victims generally try to test their aggressor and try to act coy as a means to sustain interest? Is this due to some insecurity on their part? They need to be reassured?
    I wrote this about Beta courtship styles yesterday:

    In a sense, we're looking at the world as a combat and you want your partner to be the strongest person there alongside you. So it's like you're always testing people - and if they're not right, then you keep them at arms length because you want to shield them from yourself, as well as shield yourself from them because trusting someone who isn't strong enough to handle you is like going into battle badly armed.
    I don't know if I'm coy so much as I am deliberately playing with people sometimes. It can be a bit perverse, I guess, but I will go hot-and-cold; I will want to see someone and then I suddenly won't; I'll say something nice and then withdraw again. It's like a dance - moving closer, moving away, light touches followed by pulling away again. If I had to pin it down, I would say that I'm testing their decisiveness. I want someone who isn't easily confused, who is certain in their pursuit, who is decisive. Who is steady and patient in getting what they set out to achieve. And all the coy behaviour, the tests, the game-playing of it all is just to test their mettle. It's a way of preventing me from ending up with someone who doesn't have the qualities I'm looking look, I'd say.
    ()
    3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp

  38. #38
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't relate at all to this style of romance, even if I am a victim (nothing against you idolatrie, I'm just trying to show that grouping all the victim-aggressor relationships in a single category doesn't work).
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  39. #39
    idolatrie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    413
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't relate at all to this style of romance, even if I am a victim (nothing against you idolatrie, I'm just trying to show that grouping all the victim-aggressor relationships in a single category doesn't work).
    Yeah, no, I thought I was pretty way off base. And honestly, I'm not sure I even know what style of romance works for me since I can't say I've ever been in an emotionally satisfying relationship with a guy. *shrugs*

    How would you describe a style of romance that works for you? Maybe it would be easier for you to contrast Gamma with Beta victim/aggressor rather than just having Beta speculating on it.
    allez cuisine!

  40. #40
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well I offer:

    - Initiative-taking behavior
    - A reasonable capacity for gathering information and producing new ideas
    - A decent sense of humor
    - A lot of energy to get tasks done

    What I need (I don't purposefully look for these qualities but that's what I have noticed):

    - Prompt responses to my initiative-taking behavior: I am not slow-and-steady-win-the-race; so I wouldn't stand a "victim" trying to "test" me: I would just drop it because I'd think they didn't like me. In this sense, I need no ambiguity in what the other person is feeling.
    - A person that isn't too strong or emotionally hardy: the more somebody is hardy towards me, the more I become hardy towards them. Instead, if somebody is gentle and easy-going, I become more gentle and easy-going.
    - Somebody that does for me some things that I always forget about doing; usually it's some paperwork that is absolutely necessary for the bureucratic part of something. I can do many things and work a lot, but I don't necessarily like to revise everything I do multiple times. Somebody that is naturally attuned to taking care of these details would be nice.

    Now I am of the opinion that much of what is said about the rational pairs of resolute quadras has a lot to do with their base function. For example, how an ENFj seeks for somebody which is strong: that's not Se-seeking, that's Ti-seeking. In this sense, you will not find any commonality between this part of mate-seeking behavior of a Beta NF and the mate-seeking behavior of, say, an ENTj - the latter will be inclined to look for Fi because at the end of the day their base function is still extraverted thinking.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •