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Thread: On metaphorical perceptions of quadra realities

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    Default On metaphorical perceptions of quadra realities

    I know an INFj male - ISFj female couple of 6 years who are now having some problems; basically she gets dismayed that he's still very involved with his family, and he can't understand it. Especially since in many respects they are so similar and for some time we thought they were of t he same type.

    He's interested in socionics, so I used the following images:

    "As a Gamma, she sees reality as if she was on a boat on a river; life is a river in which she sees herself slowly progressing. Her boat has place for herself and for her chosen partner - or generally for the people she wants to get on the boat with her. But those people, especially her partner, must want to get on the boat with her. If they don't, she prefers to be on the boat alone. She wants you to get on the boat with her. But what she sees is all the time waving to your family on the margin of the river. She gets the impression that you either want your family to join you two on the boat, or that you'll never really join her on the boat definitely. That's what disturbs her.

    As a Delta, you see reality as if you were in a sort of big room, with people you like, supporting each other and doing good, productive things. Most of those other people are your family. To you, she's someone whom you want very much to join you in that room, and she's the most important person there for you -- but she's still one more in the same room as the others, the two of you aren't really alone and you don't want you to be.

    The problem is that she wants you alone with her on the boat, and you see her in the same big room with your family."
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    For Alphas, the big room is like a kindergarten, or a crazy lab where they can experiment whatever they want, invent whatever they want, and play whatever they want. Anyone can join the room; the important thing is to join the fun. But of course they will also have people there who are particularly fun to play with.

    Betas are also moving, but not on a boat -- Betas are on top of a huge powerful locomotive. They don't care so much about where the locomotive is going as about its speed and power. They look more at what they've covered so far than where they are going to go. Betas are the people on top of the locomotive, yelling "Yes! Our locomotive is the most poweful! The others are suckers! Yeah!" and high-fiving each other. Some of them will be more dominant on the locomotive, others will gladly accept that as long as they belong to that most powerful locomotive. But those guys on top of the locomotive will be as quick to kick someone out who doesn't "play along" or "belong there" as they will be to jump to another, more powerful locomotive: "so long losers, you may stay on that piece of junk; I'm on the big one now!" Each locomotive will have several people who will see themselves as the ones "doing their own thing" and everyone else as "hitchiking on my locomotive". The group interaction is more obvious to outsiders.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hmmm I identify more with the boat than the room.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Edit: Well one of the points of the boat image is that of Ni. And "family" of course is valid for that guy, but not for all Deltas, it may be other kind of group.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Hmmm I identify more with the boat than the room.
    Also with the solitude implicit in that image? The possibility of being on the boat on your own is very high.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Hmmm...

    I see life as a journey. I view it in two ways. The first is as if I'm looking at a map, plotting my course. The second is an image of movement, and my concerns are what I'm moving towards and the person/people accompanying me.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    I like the Gamma one. I see life as a journey in that same sense, but it's less like I'm "plotting the journey" and more like the journey is simply the sequence of events resulting from my actions.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I am an ENTp

    I can see myself metaphorically as a force that completes projects or some kind of challenge. Such as a fine-tuned engine that is ahead of the competition. Or something else like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For Alphas, the big room is like a kindergarten, or a crazy lab where they can experiment whatever they want, invent whatever they want, and play whatever they want. Anyone can join the room; the important thing is to join the fun. But of course they will also have people there who are particularly fun to play with.

    Betas are also moving, but not on a boat -- Betas are on top of a huge powerful locomotive. They don't care so much about where the locomotive is going as about its speed and power. They look more at what they've covered so far than where they are going to go. Betas are the people on top of the locomotive, yelling "Yes! Our locomotive is the most poweful! The others are suckers! Yeah!" and high-fiving each other. Some of them will be more dominant on the locomotive, others will gladly accept that as long as they belong to that most powerful locomotive. But those guys on top of the locomotive will be as quick to kick someone out who doesn't "play along" or "belong there" as they will be to jump to another, more powerful locomotive: "so long losers, you may stay on that piece of junk; I'm on the big one now!" Each locomotive will have several people who will see themselves as the ones "doing their own thing" and everyone else as "hitchiking on my locomotive". The group interaction is more obvious to outsiders.
    Kindergarten was great. And that makes sense for Alpha, since that is more of a non-exclusion policy. And for the INTj, if the ESFj is happy and in her element around other people, the INTj should theoretically be happy too. Then wouldn't the INTj prefer the ESFj behaving like an ESFj and surrounded by people in a fun and inviting atmosphere? I suppose the Alpha metaphor does sound quite childish and idealistic, but I honestly do not see how anyone could realistically keep people in or out of their lives.

    I understand the feeling of the ISFj in the boat metaphor, but it still seems rather selfish to expect that someone should completely cut ties to get on her boat. Why isn't she willing to go into the room? It is great that she has accepted him as someone she trusts to be on her love boat, but that does not mean that he should be happy that he has to leave behind the people that he would have had or at least invited on his boat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I understand the feeling of the ISFj in the boat metaphor, but it still seems rather selfish to expect that someone should completely cut ties to get on her boat. Why isn't she willing to go into the room? It is great that she has accepted him as someone she trusts to be on her love boat, but that does not mean that he should be happy that he has to leave behind the people that he would have had or at least invited on his boat.
    Because that is not Gamma. And it's not about "completely cutting the ties"; it's to show that, in the end, he's with her on the boat, and wanting to be there.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    i wanna be in a big dance hall with shiny disco balls every where and then close hold a girl like there is nobody else there and suddenly the music restarts and everybody is back there
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I understand the feeling of the ISFj in the boat metaphor, but it still seems rather selfish to expect that someone should completely cut ties to get on her boat. Why isn't she willing to go into the room? It is great that she has accepted him as someone she trusts to be on her love boat, but that does not mean that he should be happy that he has to leave behind the people that he would have had or at least invited on his boat.
    Because that is not Gamma. And it's not about "completely cutting the ties"; it's to show that, in the end, he's with her on the boat, and wanting to be there.
    Fine, he obviously wants to be with her on the boat, but why should she expect that he leaves the people he would want to join him on the boat on the shore instead? Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but you seem to be telling him, "The problem is that you are not getting on her boat," when it is also the converse problem that she is not willing to dock the ship and go ashore to the Delta room.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    i wanna be in a big dance hall with shiny disco balls every where and then close hold a girl like there is nobody else there and suddenly the music restarts and everybody is back there
    You want your life to be like an '80s teen movie?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Fine, he obviously wants to be with her on the boat, but why should she expect that he leaves the people he would want to join him on the boat on the shore instead? Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but you seem to be telling him, "The problem is that you are not getting on her boat," when it is also the converse problem that she is not willing to dock the ship and go ashore to the Delta room.
    Of course. I explained that to him from the Gamma viewpoint; it's not objectively more "correct" than the Delta one.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Fine, he obviously wants to be with her on the boat, but why should she expect that he leaves the people he would want to join him on the boat on the shore instead? Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but you seem to be telling him, "The problem is that you are not getting on her boat," when it is also the converse problem that she is not willing to dock the ship and go ashore to the Delta room.
    Of course. I explained that to him from the Gamma viewpoint; it's not objectively more "correct" than the Delta one.
    Of course not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    You want your life to be like an '80s teen movie?
    Omg, I didn't say my whole life...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Hmmm I identify more with the boat than the room.
    Also with the solitude implicit in that image? The possibility of being on the boat on your own is very high.
    No, I wouldn't want to be alone. I think the issue is that I don't get along with my parents all that well and I don't consider my husband and myself to have joined my family of origin. I'd always have to have some circle of friends or something though.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Hmmm I identify more with the boat than the room.
    Also with the solitude implicit in that image? The possibility of being on the boat on your own is very high.
    No, I wouldn't want to be alone. I think the issue is that I don't get along with my parents all that well and I don't consider my husband and myself to have joined my family of origin. I'd always have to have some circle of friends or something though.
    Then to my criteria, you fit the room more -- the fact that for that guy his family was the group in the room is just a coincidence, secondary.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    for me life is like a path through the wilderness, always something unexpected around the corner, somewhat dangerous, but exciting. the people on my path or on a path parallel with me are special, indeed.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    for me life is like a path through the wilderness, always something unexpected around the corner, somewhat dangerous, but exciting. the people on my path or on a path parallel with me are special, indeed.
    At face value, that sounds like Ni - Se to me.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Not everyone can just join in on research as far as I'm concerned. Ti has it's own ways of choosing who it does and does not mix in with, just like Fi does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    for me life is like a path through the wilderness, always something unexpected around the corner, somewhat dangerous, but exciting. the people on my path or on a path parallel with me are special, indeed.
    I was just going to write something along those lines.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    Not everyone can just join in on research as far as I'm concerned. Ti has it's own ways of choosing who it does and does not mix in with, just like Fi does.
    Which is probably why a kindgergarten or playground was the better analogy, though I suppose that Ti would be used to determine the rules of play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    for me life is like a path through the wilderness, always something unexpected around the corner, somewhat dangerous, but exciting. the people on my path or on a path parallel with me are special, indeed.
    I was just going to write something along those lines.
    Hmmm, ok. Perhaps it's connected to EP temperament. Or perhaps I'm seeing too much into these metaphors.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    for me life is like a path through the wilderness, always something unexpected around the corner, somewhat dangerous, but exciting. the people on my path or on a path parallel with me are special, indeed.
    I was just going to write something along those lines.
    Hmmm, ok. Perhaps it's connected to EP temperament. Or perhaps I'm seeing too much into these metaphors.
    A greater identification with imagery than with the idea behind it.
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    What's the difference between the Alpha and Delta rooms? The Alpha one does seem pretty shallow, honestly, so I can kind of see why Gilly thinks that we're being misrepresented. It's nice to see it from the Ni/Se POV, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    What's the difference between the Alpha and Delta rooms? The Alpha one does seem pretty shallow, honestly, so I can kind of see why Gilly thinks that we're being misrepresented. It's nice to see it from the Ni/Se POV, though.
    I think that the Delta room was supposed to represent something of a country club (Aristocrat), while Alpha's kindergarten room was supposed to be open to all, while they all had fun (Democrat). I think it seemed quite shallow since we were the only Quadra's whose adult relationship involved diminishing the ages of the adults to kids, and where it was less like a relationship and more like a birthday party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I think it seemed quite shallow since we were the only Quadra's whose adult relationship involved diminishing the ages of the adults to kids, and where it was less like a relationship and more like a birthday party.
    okay then, make the Delta room a retirement home, the Beta railroad a fraternity on probation. you can even the score with Gamma by infesting their river environment with malaria. (Si POLR right?) in fact this does not necessarily detract from the metaphor's Gamma-ness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
    In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation.
    No that is reverse of what I am suggesting. I am not saying that the other quadras should reflect their respective life stage, but that Alphas should not be diminished to children in their metaphor, but kept as adults.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I think that the Delta room was supposed to represent something of a country club (Aristocrat), while Alpha's kindergarten room was supposed to be open to all, while they all had fun (Democrat).
    More or less, the Delta aristocracy is inclusive. The difference is that Delta sees the group as a group (altough joining it is fairly easy), while Alpha doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I think it seemed quite shallow since we were the only Quadra's whose adult relationship involved diminishing the ages of the adults to kids, and where it was less like a relationship and more like a birthday party.
    That was a reference to the quadra ages: childhood --> adolescence ---> adulthood ---> old age.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    You want your life to be like an '80s teen movie?
    Omg, I didn't say my whole life...
    rofl.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    for me life is like a path through the wilderness, always something unexpected around the corner, somewhat dangerous, but exciting. the people on my path or on a path parallel with me are special, indeed.
    At face value, that sounds like Ni - Se to me.
    i see what you mean. now you have me thinking about beta. say some more...

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Betas are also moving, but not on a boat -- Betas are on top of a huge powerful locomotive. They don't care so much about where the locomotive is going as about its speed and power. They look more at what they've covered so far than where they are going to go. Betas are the people on top of the locomotive, yelling "Yes! Our locomotive is the most poweful! The others are suckers! Yeah!" and high-fiving each other. Some of them will be more dominant on the locomotive, others will gladly accept that as long as they belong to that most powerful locomotive. But those guys on top of the locomotive will be as quick to kick someone out who doesn't "play along" or "belong there" as they will be to jump to another, more powerful locomotive: "so long losers, you may stay on that piece of junk; I'm on the big one now!" Each locomotive will have several people who will see themselves as the ones "doing their own thing" and everyone else as "hitchiking on my locomotive". The group interaction is more obvious to outsiders.
    Okay, so if I get this correctly:

    The locomotive = the passage of time/journey of life, and the movement on a locomotive as opposed to a boat would be felt more viscerally

    The journey is more important that the destination = Ni + Se

    Dominant people on the boat = people of influence who help determine how big of a rush we get on this ride

    "I'm on the big one now!" = ... I kind of don't really get this one, actually. My best guess is people are flocking to a a different train for a more vivid experience on this ride?

    "doing their own thing" vs. "hitch-hiking" = ... guessing, here: the journey is a personal experience for the permanent rider, where other people just come and go?
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi
    Baby,

    I like your interpretation. I was thinking more along the lines of:

    "Exactly. Now go fuck yourself."

    And

    "This bullshit ends now."
    LOL
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  33. #33
    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
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  34. #34
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    I didn't read this thread, but the ISFj in Expats story, her attitude is disturbing

    It sounds selfish to ask a man to give up his family for you, just so you are getting full attention on you're little boat.

    My boat has acommedations for all my family, AND all my partners family (assuming they want on it, they are an odd bunch)!!!

    I take people with me....I only relate to to her when I think of how I am at my reclusive worst, which is depression.
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

  35. #35
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    I didn't read this thread, but the ISFj in Expats story, her attitude is disturbing

    It sounds selfish to ask a man to give up his family for you, just so you are getting full attention on you're little boat.

    My boat has acommedations for all my family, AND all my partners family (assuming they want on it, they are an odd bunch)!!!

    I take people with me....I only relate to to her when I think of how I am at my reclusive worst, which is depression.
    It's just a matter of choice - for example if your future husband had to move to another city because of his career progression, how could you bring your family etc etc?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  36. #36
    Khamelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    I didn't read this thread, but the ISFj in Expats story, her attitude is disturbing

    It sounds selfish to ask a man to give up his family for you, just so you are getting full attention on you're little boat.

    My boat has acommedations for all my family, AND all my partners family (assuming they want on it, they are an odd bunch)!!!

    I take people with me....I only relate to to her when I think of how I am at my reclusive worst, which is depression.
    It's just a matter of choice - for example if your future husband had to move to another city because of his career progression, how could you bring your family etc etc?

    Well I'm actually pretty much in that situation. I don't know if that is the same issue though?
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    I didn't read this thread, but the ISFj in Expats story, her attitude is disturbing

    It sounds selfish to ask a man to give up his family for you, just so you are getting full attention on you're little boat.

    My boat has acommedations for all my family, AND all my partners family (assuming they want on it, they are an odd bunch)!!!

    I take people with me....I only relate to to her when I think of how I am at my reclusive worst, which is depression.
    The thing is, she didn't think it was correct either. She never made an ultimatum, "either your family or me". She just started to feel insecure and depressed whenever she realized his need to call his family even when they were travelling together alone. She realized it disturbed her at a deep level. It wasn't about "asking him to give up his family" -- it was about him not wanting to.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Okay, so if I get this correctly:

    The locomotive = the passage of time/journey of life, and the movement on a locomotive as opposed to a boat would be felt more viscerally
    Yes, but also because the locomotive allows for more people. It's the Fe+Ti rather than Fi-Te preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    The journey is more important that the destination = Ni + Se
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Dominant people on the boat = people of influence who help determine how big of a rush we get on this ride
    Yes, but it's more specific. I've noticed that ESTps in particular don't like much, or relate to, the concept of "group" which is nevertheless visible to outsiders. ESTps, I think, see themselves rather as loners, who happen to have people tagging along.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    "I'm on the big one now!" = ... I kind of don't really get this one, actually. My best guess is people are flocking to a a different train for a more vivid experience on this ride?
    They are flocking to where the sensation of power is greater.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    "doing their own thing" vs. "hitch-hiking" = ... guessing, here: the journey is a personal experience for the permanent rider, where other people just come and go?
    Actually each of them would see themselves as the "permanent rider", with everyone else as "come and go".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For Alphas, the big room is like a kindergarten, or a crazy lab where they can experiment whatever they want, invent whatever they want, and play whatever they want. Anyone can join the room; the important thing is to join the fun. But of course they will also have people there who are particularly fun to play with.
    I can see how that could be seen as shallow - I tried to find a simple image to convey the Alpha democracy, preference, and .

    Obviously, I choose "rooms" for , and a river or a train for .

    As the Democratic , Gamma is the most solitary of all quadras, hence the small-boat image.

    Instead of a kindergarten, what about a long dinner table, where people are enjoying their food and drink, moving about as they please, and exchanging ideas and stories?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  40. #40
    Khamelion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    I didn't read this thread, but the ISFj in Expats story, her attitude is disturbing

    It sounds selfish to ask a man to give up his family for you, just so you are getting full attention on you're little boat.

    My boat has acommedations for all my family, AND all my partners family (assuming they want on it, they are an odd bunch)!!!

    I take people with me....I only relate to to her when I think of how I am at my reclusive worst, which is depression.
    The thing is, she didn't think it was correct either. She never made an ultimatum, "either your family or me". She just started to feel insecure and depressed whenever she realized his need to call his family even when they were travelling together alone. She realized it disturbed her at a deep level. It wasn't about "asking him to give up his family" -- it was about him not wanting to.
    I was starting to understand up to the last sentance, makes more sense now all together but, why would he ever WANT to give them up?
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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