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Thread: My issues with the common Judeo-Christian view of God:

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    Default My issues with the common Judeo-Christian view of God:

    Omnipotence and Omnibenevolence: The non-cartesian version of this aspect of God brings about the problem of Theodicy(the problem of evil.)

    If God is all loving(in the anthropomorphic sense), then he would desire this world to be the best of all possible worlds, correct? Thus, why is it that, despite his omnipotency, he has yet to produce such a world?

    I would assert that the best possible world is the world with the least suffering and maximal happiness.

    Omnipresence: If God is _as_ present as he could possibly be, then how is it possible to make himself "more" present by showing himself in any manner whatsoever? How could one derive knowledge of him if the knowledge is already fully presented?

    Omniscience and free-will: how is it possible for God to know all that is and for free-will to be preserved, with God being a linearly temporal being as depicted by the Bible?

    I now request for all Christian theologians, amateur or not, or religious enthusiasts to answer said issues.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    read mere christianity, the abolition of man, reformed theology, augustine, and the book of romans

    /edit

    and possibly kirkegaard as well

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    It's not possible. God can't control, judge or even watch over everyone, and dictate everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky, a long long time ago,
    This is proved on about page three of the Bible. I'm talking about when Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. Adam realizes he is naked and hides from God. God has to ask, "Where are you?" and there were only two people on the entire planet! God also didn't even know Adam ate the fruit until Adam TOLD God he ate it.... how am I suppossed to belive that God can watch over the 7 BILLION people on this planet?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I chose the wording of my topic's title with a particular intent: to investigate the "common Judeo-Christian view of God." As such, I assume the notions of Omnipotency and Omniscience to be actual properties of the Christian god.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Default Re: My issues with the common Judeo-Christian view of God:

    Yeah, your best bet would be to read some Lewis, but I will try to answer as best I can.

    Omnipotence and Omnibenevolence: The non-cartesian version of this aspect of God brings about the problem of Theodicy(the problem of evil.)

    If God is all loving(in the anthropomorphic sense), then he would desire this world to be the best of all possible worlds, correct? Thus, why is it that, despite his omnipotency, he has yet to produce such a world?
    Two answers to this.

    1. Don't tell God how to run the Universe. lol

    2. A "perfect" world without suffering would be pointless. In my view the entire point of human existence is to suffer so that we can see what Good really is. In this "perfect world" there would be no suffering or evil, and nothing Good either. You may say that in a perfect world we could learn about suffering without ourselves having to suffer, but I do not think this is true. I believe we essentially ARE learning about good and evil now, and that when we are done we go to the perfect world.

    I would assert that the best possible world is the world with the least suffering and maximal happiness.
    And you'd be correct. The problem is that for us to have free will we need to learn about goodness and evilness ourselves; We need to suffer first to get there.

    Omnipresence: If God is _as_ present as he could possibly be, then how is it possible to make himself "more" present by showing himself in any manner whatsoever? How could one derive knowledge of him if the knowledge is already fully presented?
    Assuming he IS omnipresent, you must already know all there is to know. Or maybe his "presence everywhere simultaneously" needs interpretation in a different way. His "being everywhere" can mean many things. Does it mean everything there is to know about him is in every point in space? That doesn't make any sense. It probably means that he is aware of everything, and in complete control of everything. That infinite perception of all is probably the best way to think of God's omnipresence.

    Omniscience and free-will: how is it possible for God to know all that is and for free-will to be preserved, with God being a linearly temporal being as depicted by the Bible?
    Simple. He sees all time as one thing. He does not travel through it linearly, as you put it. (unless he wants to, I guess) Instead he is aware of all time as one event. He knows what you will do because he saw you make the decision with your own free will. That in no way irradicates free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    It's not possible. God can't control, judge or even watch over everyone, and dictate everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky, a long long time ago,
    This is proved on about page three of the Bible. I'm talking about when Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. Adam realizes he is naked and hides from God. God has to ask, "Where are you?" and there were only two people on the entire planet! God also didn't even know Adam ate the fruit until Adam TOLD God he ate it.... how am I suppossed to belive that God can watch over the 7 BILLION people on this planet?
    Terrible argument. First, common sense will tell you that the Old Testament has to be taken with a grain of salt. It was written so long ago that many alterations may have been made. Secondly, perhaps God wanted to ask? When a child does something wrong, it is an extremely unpleasant experience to have to tell an adult what he did. It is shameful, and God wanted to show Adam the meaning of shame. It is obvious. You were using this argument as a rationalization in order to diminish Christianity, and not take it seriously. Textbook case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    You were using this argument as a rationalization in order to diminish Christianity, and not take it seriously. Textbook case.
    I just meant that the Bible contradicts itself in some places.

    And I conscidered the whole "let the child admit it" thing, but it doesn't work in context.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    You were using this argument as a rationalization in order to diminish Christianity, and not take it seriously. Textbook case.
    I just meant that the Bible contradicts itself in some places.

    And I conscidered the whole "let the child admit it" thing, but it doesn't work in context.
    ???

    It works perfectly. Adam and Eve had many childlike aspects. They were the children and God was their father.

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    "A "perfect" world without suffering would be pointless. In my view the entire point of human existence is to suffer so that we can see what Good really is. In this "perfect world" there would be no suffering or evil, and nothing Good either. You may say that in a perfect world we could learn about suffering without ourselves having to suffer, but I do not think this is true. I believe we essentially ARE learning about good and evil now, and that when we are done we go to the perfect world. "

    Why would it be pointless? Are yous imply assuming our purpose or is that the "common Judeo-Christian view" of our existence in relation to our supposed meaningfulness?

    "And you'd be correct. The problem is that for us to have free will we need to learn about goodness and evilness ourselves; We need to suffer first to get there. "

    Why is free-will a neccessity?

    "Assuming he IS omnipresent, you must already know all there is to know. Or maybe his "presence everywhere simultaneously" needs interpretation in a different way. His "being everywhere" can mean many things. Does it mean everything there is to know about him is in every point in space? That doesn't make any sense. It probably means that he is aware of everything, and in complete control of everything. That infinite perception of all is probably the best way to think of God's omnipresence. "

    So you're equating perception with presence, now? I think omnipresence means what it says; he is present everywhere. Then again, I guess that could be interpreted as "being in complete control of everything", as that would mean his influence, and hence presence, pervades all of reality.

    "Simple. He sees all time as one thing. He does not travel through it linearly, as you put it. (unless he wants to, I guess) Instead he is aware of all time as one event. He knows what you will do because he saw you make the decision with your own free will. That in no way irradicates free will."

    But God is depicted linearly, so how can you call him atemporal without asserting a non-Biblical notion? Am I unaware of a certain passage? Perhaps this is merely rooted in the Newtonian, mechanistic perspective of the world, that to have knowledge of something means that it is predetermined.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    You were using this argument as a rationalization in order to diminish Christianity, and not take it seriously. Textbook case.
    I just meant that the Bible contradicts itself in some places.

    And I conscidered the whole "let the child admit it" thing, but it doesn't work in context.
    ???

    It works perfectly. Adam and Eve had many childlike aspects. They were the children and God was their father.
    Even if you believe that, how can you expect God to know everything about everyone, when there are ~7 Billion people on Earth? Pure Faith?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "Even if you believe that, how can you expect God to know everything about everyone, when there are ~7 Billion people on Earth? Pure Faith?"

    "He's not called God for nothing."

    In other words, don't put natural contraints upon a supernatural entity.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    You were using this argument as a rationalization in order to diminish Christianity, and not take it seriously. Textbook case.
    I just meant that the Bible contradicts itself in some places.

    And I conscidered the whole "let the child admit it" thing, but it doesn't work in context.
    ???

    It works perfectly. Adam and Eve had many childlike aspects. They were the children and God was their father.
    Even if you believe that, how can you expect God to know everything about everyone, when there are ~7 Billion people on Earth? Pure Faith?
    I'm sorry, but it seems perfectly plausible for me to think that God can handle whatever logistics he chooses. The whole idea of God is that he created everything, so I'm not going to doubt his ability to monitor those creations. lmao

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    just so you know i disagree with almost everything discojoe is saying...

    in terms of Arminianism and so forth at least.

    there are some pretty damned good arguements out there. read as much as you can about it. theology has been uber developed in Christianity. you might want to read john calvin, jonathan edwards, luther, aquinas, and that british guy... what was his name? crap i will remember later and edit this out

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    fgdfg

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    Why would it be pointless? Are you simply assuming our purpose or is that the "common Judeo-Christian view" of our existence in relation to our supposed meaningfulness?
    If we can't suffer, we cannot know goodness. With evil there is no goodness. Without free will there is no evil. The point of our life is to try follow goodness as much as possible, so that we may become as much like God as we can, but without direct communication or help from God. He wants us to walk on our own two feet, which is why he will not help us directly, but only through our own faith.

    Why is free-will a neccessity?
    Because if we are not free then we are not free, which is bad, because freedom lets us make our own decisions.

    So you're equating perception with presence, now? I think omnipresence means what it says; he is present everywhere. Then again, I guess that could be interpreted as "being in complete control of everything", as that would mean his influence, and hence presence, pervades all of reality.
    Okay, let's use this idea: He is present but we can't see him.

    But God is depicted linearly, so how can you call him atemporal without asserting a non-Biblical notion? Am I unaware of a certain passage? Perhaps this is merely rooted in the Newtonian, mechanistic perspective of the world, that to have knowledge of something means that it is predetermined.
    The Bible is vague about the nature of God's existence. It's mostly up to us to ponder. My idea makes the most sense. Also, if he is omnipotent, he can be temporal and atemporal simultaneously. It's simple.

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    After reading up a bit on Augustine and Calvin on wikipedia, is it safe to assume that you believe in Pre-destination, Pedro?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I only know vaguely what Arminianism is, so I am rescinding that last comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    John Bunyan?
    no but this thread reminds me that i have to read bunyan, darby, and moody.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    After reading up a bit on Augustine and Calvin on wikipedia, is it safe to assume that you believe in Pre-destination, Pedro?
    kind of...

    /edit

    i remember now... Charles Spurgeon

    here is a great resource for online versions of their books too http://ccel.org/index/classics.html

    also you might want to add kant to the list

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    MysticSonic, the modern-day Thomas Paine.

    Exactly what are you trying to prove, MysticSonic? It seems as though by criticizing the theory of Christianity, you are looking to replace it with a better theory that still contains a God?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    i think he is just trying to understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    i think he is just trying to understand
    Ditto.

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    In that case, does he want to believe in the Christian God?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    "Exactly what are you trying to prove, MysticSonic? It seems as though by criticizing the theory of Christianity, you are looking to replace it with a better theory that still contains a God?"

    I'm simply trying to critque the "common Judeo-Christian view of God." How many times do I have to say that?

    In all honesty, I'm an atheistic agnostic who follows a few buddhist tenets, so no, I don't think I'm a "modern Thomas Paine."

    "i think he is just trying to understand"

    That would be the end result, yes.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    "In that case, does he want to believe in the Christian God?"

    Quite honestly, I don't know what I "want" from this, I simply feel compelled to do it.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    "i think he is just trying to understand"

    That would be the end result, yes.
    So why is that still difficult for me to grasp?

    /edit

    "In that case, does he want to believe in the Christian God?"

    Quite honestly, I don't know what I "want" from this, I simply feel compelled to do it.
    Oh, ok, I get it now.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    I was born blind. Explain to me the color purple.




    The Bible: Written by divine inspiration over the course of many years and intended for the eyes of different people. There are pasages which forbid women to wear their hair up or wear make up. Why? Because in the society it was written for, whores allowed their necks to be seen and wore make up. The passage was not saying, "Never ever under any circumstances should a woman wear her hair up, cut her hair, or wear make up." It's saying don't be a whore. THE KEY IS TO TAKE "THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW" RATHER THAN "THE LETTER OF THE LAW". If the entire Bible was meant to be taken literally word for word, why would we have been given Ten specific Commandments?

    Good and Evil: No such thing. There is only complete and incomplete.

    The nature of God: so.... have you figured out how to explain the color purple to someone who would have nothing to associate it with? I believe that God exists in another dimension. God describes God as "I AM". God is complete existence. We are merely what we percieve on some level and how we interpret it. I AM exists in a plane which no person has seen. Descriptions of God and Heaven are merely attempts at describing purple to a blind person. Things like "he" and "streets of gold" are not literal. There is a language barrier, if you will.

    Why did I AM create humanity: Apparently I AM wanted to be loved. If you wanted to be loved, would it make more sense to build a robot who is programmed to say, "I love you" or to find a person who will love you? With a person you risk that they won't love you, or that they will let you down. That is because that person is free to do as he/she pleases. A robot "loving" you means nothing. A person loving you, however...

    Newton's Third Law states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I believe that this is the definition of the universe... Everything that exists must do so in opposition to something equal. That is why there cannot be happiness without misery.

    We all remember The Matrix movies, right? In the third one (I believe) explains the existence of Smith, the "unplugged" program... It exists to balance Neo's existence. It's all about balance... The universe is like an equation. Everything must always balance out. The problem is that it is in a constant state of motion.

    Time: Time is merely physical motion, or in some cases the perception of physical motion. It is irrelevent in the realm of the eternal, which is existence, aka- I AM. Without a physical dimension, time does not exist.

    ummmmmmmmm I have a whole bunch more to say but I don't feel like it right now.
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    oh yeah, and "Heaven" is a joining of consciousnesses with I AM, the complete existence of the universe...
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    no offense but you have no idea what you are talking about

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    enlighten me
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    i can't really because you are not familiar enough with the material. i will just say that you are trying to apply the precepts of your culture to something completely foreign. it's like that episode of King of the Hill where Peggy accuses Minh of not having to worry about her child being lost because buddhists are calm and because Connie will just reincarnate into a cricket or a dragonfly if she dies anyway heh. for one thing the view that God created us as love objects is very very very recent and in that situation we are the objects of His love. the reverse happens because that is how man finds his own contentment. blargh i better not get sucked into this... just read all the stuff i listed earlier.

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    THE KEY IS TO TAKE "THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW" RATHER THAN "THE LETTER OF THE LAW"
    In that case, why even have religion? Throw out your bibles, because all we need is common sense.

    I believe that God exists in another dimension.
    So if he's not here in this dimension, then do we really need a God? Why must we define what we cannot know? Why must we try to explain why the universe is so complex? Is it really that complex that we must conclude that a "divine architect" created it? Or is it that we just don't understand it?

    for one thing the view that God created us as love objects...
    Heh heh, "love objects".

    Sorry, Beta moment. :wink:
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    ::Go to listen to the Pain of Salvation Album BE::
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    fdsfgdsa

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    You guys don't have what it takes to argue with me.

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    discojoe, I can think of three main reasons to believe in something: faith, fear, or tangible proof.

    Since I'm not going to go by pure faith here in believing something (I'm not even 100% sure that the Earth is round), and I'm not afraid of what will happen to me if I don't comply with common Judeo-christianity beliefs, then I'm looking for something tangible here. Something I can sink my teath in. Can you do that for me? Give me any reasons... or proofs... or anything to believe in what you believe in?

    I'm talking about the R word, discojoe... reason. Can you say it with me... "reason". I'm sure you can find something.

    If you can't bring anything to the table besides faith and fear, then I can't continue here. If you can give some interesting examples, or any reason why the Judeo-christian God is "watching over all of us", then I'd be glad to listen.


    On a side note, I've always liked this quote, Mystic,

    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    Where is it from?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Islam teaches that God is All-Knowing.

    As the Qur'an is a Book of God, and is true, then this is enough to show that God is All Knowing since the Qur'an states that God is All Knowing.

    But you may question the validity of the Qur'an. If you do, then you will find answers as to it's validity from knowing the Qur'an.

    Have a look at this, which provides proof of the validity of the Qur'an:

    http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php

    If you have fast internet then you can see the videos here:

    http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_de...hp?api_id=1267

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    Since I'm not going to go by pure faith here in believing something (I'm not even 100% sure that the Earth is round), and I'm not afraid of what will happen to me if I don't comply with common Judeo-christianity beliefs, then I'm looking for something tangible here. Something I can sink my teath in. Can you do that for me? Give me any reasons... or proofs... or anything to believe in what you believe in?
    It's good that you're not afraid of what will happen to you. God forgives everyone. Even Hitler. People who think you have to "reach out" and accept forgiveness are ignorant. Jesus died on the cross to shame us, so that we know he already forgives us for the horrible things we do. People in the Amazon who don't know about Christianity don't have the privilege of "accepting Jesus," but that doesn't mean they are doomed. No, God forgives us all, and it's our own shame once we become aware of what we've done that is our punishment, because it's a pure, intense shame.

    If you want proof, I can't give it to you. The nature of Christianity rejects proof as a form of backing. Faith is the whole point. One thing I will say, is that people who arrogantly demand some form of emprical evidence to back the claims of Christianity are only doing so out of pride, (at not wanting to feel stupid over believing something out of a "touchy feely" sense of truth) or fear. (of not being in control of their lives. These people view Christianity as a means of subjugation)

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    "Where is it from?"

    The track "Anime Partus I" on Pain of Salvation's album BE.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I don't know if the billions will survive, but I'll believe in God when one and one are five.
    Wait. Do you believe in God or not, Discojoe?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    If you want proof, I can't give it to you. The nature of Christianity rejects proof as a form of backing. Faith is the whole point.
    Just like all those other mythologies that noone believes anymore?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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