Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 121 to 142 of 142

Thread: Alpha Philosophy & Religion

  1. #121

    Default Alpha and anti-capitalism

    Would any of you say anti-capitalist views are associated with alpha? If so, is this a rightful association? Also, is it that alpha values are against many of the ideals that capitalism stand for, or is it that alphas are just generally discontent assholes who will rebel against whatever institutions and systems happen to be in place at the moment?

  2. #122
    JRiddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indian Territory
    TIM
    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by borromean-ring View Post
    Would any of you say anti-capitalist views are associated with alpha? If so, is this a rightful association? Also, is it that alpha values are against many of the ideals that capitalism stand for, or is it that alphas are just generally discontent assholes who will rebel against whatever institutions and systems happen to be in place at the moment?
    Haha, I don't think that alphas are anti-capitalist in particular. In fact, Adam Smith is usually typed as an LII or ILE. Alphas, insofar as they care about politics, take a variety of stances. And "rebellion" is more of a Beta thing. Given the choice, I think most Alphas would rather not have to worry about that kind of stuff.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  3. #123
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by borromean-ring View Post
    Would any of you say anti-capitalist views are associated with alpha? If so, is this a rightful association? Also, is it that alpha values are against many of the ideals that capitalism stand for, or is it that alphas are just generally discontent assholes who will rebel against whatever institutions and systems happen to be in place at the moment?
    I'll take the answer seriously.

    I think that to the extent that this makes any sense at all, it is actually Gamma the quadra that would have obviously pro-capitalist views. Alpha, Beta and Delta would all have (different) reasons for opposing it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  4. #124
    Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    9,168
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I think that to the extent that this makes any sense at all, it is actually Gamma the quadra that would have obviously pro-capitalist views. Alpha, Beta and Delta would all have (different) reasons for opposing it.
    There are still definitely a fair few Alphas, Betas and Deltas who are capitalistic - and who support it (Greenspan, Clinton, Rachmaninoff, Jobs, Roosevelt, Cheney, Trump, me, Edison, Bush, Snr., Schwarzenegger, Orwell) - and some Gammas who have a problem with it (Chávez, Gorbachez, Krupskaya).

  5. #125

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by borromean-ring View Post
    Would any of you say anti-capitalist views are associated with alpha? If so, is this a rightful association?
    Yes, and yes.

    Also, is it that alpha values are against many of the ideals that capitalism stand for, or is it that alphas are just generally discontent assholes who will rebel against whatever institutions and systems happen to be in place at the moment?
    The first option. Alpha values are contrary to those that capitalism stands for. There is a sort of altruistic streak in Alpha mentality, and especially in the LII profiles with can see direct associations with a collectivist mindset. And if you look at reality, if you look at how the Alpha types among your friends reason and react to clearly accentuated capitalist ideas and behaviours, then I think you will see a clear pattern. The general pattern is extremely clear in almost all of the Alphas I have met in real life.

  6. #126

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I'll take the answer seriously.

    I think that to the extent that this makes any sense at all, it is actually Gamma the quadra that would have obviously pro-capitalist views.
    Definitely so, yes. (Sometimes Expat is totally right in what he says. Quite often actually.)

  7. #127
    machintruc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,252
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm Alpha, and I'm capitalist.

  8. #128

    Default

    I wasn't trying to say anything along the lines of "all capitalists are gamma" or "all anti-capitalists are alpha" or "all alphas are anti-capitalists". I'm concerned with integral types (quadras in this case) -- the overall ideology of a large institution of people. Obviously, you will come across people of all types within any organization. However, in some organizations, a general trend is clear.

    I agree with everyone who said that capitalism comes from a mainly gamma perspective, and that is the point of my post. I think it's pretty obvious that capitalism was born out of gamma values. Valued and are clear, as well as devalued and . Since the valued elements of alpha are the opposite of those of gamma, it is natural to suppose that the strongest opposition of capitalism would come from the alpha quadra as a whole. I think the second most likely quadra to oppose would be delta, since they are the other quadra that has devalued , which seems to be the main driving force of capitalism.

    Once again, I'm speaking in generalizations here and looking at overall trends. Also, I've only really experienced capitalism in one part of the world and am interested in hearing if there is an emphasis placed on different elements in the commercial world of other places.

  9. #129
    JRiddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indian Territory
    TIM
    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by borromean-ring View Post
    I wasn't trying to say anything along the lines of "all capitalists are gamma" or "all anti-capitalists are alpha" or "all alphas are anti-capitalists". I'm concerned with integral types (quadras in this case) -- the overall ideology of a large institution of people. Obviously, you will come across people of all types within any organization. However, in some organizations, a general trend is clear.

    I agree with everyone who said that capitalism comes from a mainly gamma perspective, and that is the point of my post. I think it's pretty obvious that capitalism was born out of gamma values. Valued and are clear, as well as devalued and . Since the valued elements of alpha are the opposite of those of gamma, it is natural to suppose that the strongest opposition of capitalism would come from the alpha quadra as a whole. I think the second most likely quadra to oppose would be delta, since they are the other quadra that has devalued , which seems to be the main driving force of capitalism.

    Once again, I'm speaking in generalizations here and looking at overall trends. Also, I've only really experienced capitalism in one part of the world and am interested in hearing if there is an emphasis placed on different elements in the commercial world of other places.
    I can see the "capitalism comes from gamma values" perspective, and you make a good case for it. But that emphasis on and is only from the point of view of the capitalist himself. From the point of view of a government, it is about relinquishing to let the market reach its own potential (). That's why I'm hesitant to describe any economic system as being based on a quadra values: it depends on the perspective of the economic actor.

    Views of capitalism
    • Alpha
      • Positive: Freedom to pursue one's own potential, competition drives need for constant innovation
      • Negative: Emphasis is often on amassing power and wealth instead; innovations exploited by others
    • Beta
      • Positive: Opportunities to take power and expand influence
      • Negative: Market competition makes this difficult to sustain long-term
    • Gamma
      • Positive: System makes enterprise easy, numerous opportunities for personal gain
      • Negative: Remaining profitable requires constant innovation, difficult to predict competitors actions
    • Delta
      • Positive: Allows people to pursue inner dreams, free markets -> free society (if individual believes that)
      • Negative: Limited ability to direct change; requires significant amounts of mobilization
    It also comes down to what the individual believes will bring about his or her goals. If you believe capitalism is effective at promoting freedom, you won't worry about the as much. If you believe capitalism is primarily used to concentrate power in the hands of a few, then alpha values probably go against it.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  10. #130
    JRiddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indian Territory
    TIM
    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Also, now that I've read your post more clearly, I would agree that the integral type of the capitalist or entrepreneur or enterpriser or whatever you call it is Gamma. I still don't think there is an integral type of "capitalism", though, as not everyone in favor of capitalism is a businessman. As a philosophy of government and the economy, capitalism is often distorted by gammas, as businesses often work to get gov't subsidies and pay lobbyists to try to push legislation in their favor. That is actually going against capitalism.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  11. #131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    I can see the "capitalism comes from gamma values" perspective, and you make a good case for it. But that emphasis on and is only from the point of view of the capitalist himself. From the point of view of a government, it is about relinquishing to let the market reach its own potential ().
    That's an interesting point; I didn't think of considering the point of view of the government. But now that I have, here's my response.
    While I see what you're saying about relinquishing , I think it's incorrect to connect this to a devaluation of . The reason for this is that the relinquishing is just a means to an end. I think it's reasonable to say that the government's actions are based on the realization a bigger goal: promoting a society-wide mentality and economic system. From this standpoint, it would make sense for the government to exercise less of its own internally (I'm not sure how much that made sense), in order to create an economic system where flourishes. Therefore, I don't think the contradiction you stated here really exists, because the end result (what the government wants to acheive) still coincides with the same gamma values.

    Views of capitalism
    • Alpha
      • Positive: Freedom to pursue one's own potential, competition drives need for constant innovation
      • Negative: Emphasis is often on amassing power and wealth instead; innovations exploited by others
    • Beta
      • Positive: Opportunities to take power and expand influence
      • Negative: Market competition makes this difficult to sustain long-term
    • Gamma
      • Positive: System makes enterprise easy, numerous opportunities for personal gain
      • Negative: Remaining profitable requires constant innovation, difficult to predict competitors actions
    • Delta
      • Positive: Allows people to pursue inner dreams, free markets -> free society (if individual believes that)
      • Negative: Limited ability to direct change; requires significant amounts of mobilization
    It also comes down to what the individual believes will bring about his or her goals. If you believe capitalism is effective at promoting freedom, you won't worry about the as much. If you believe capitalism is primarily used to concentrate power in the hands of a few, then alpha values probably go against it.
    I agree that there's a lot of potential for personal bias here. Looking at your +/- points of each quadra, it looks a little skewed to me. The beta points, especially, seem rather ambivalent. The alpha points seem to be the most "ideologically charged". As for "Remaining profitable requires constant innovation, difficult to predict competitors actions", I think we'll agree that the first part corresponds to . However, "difficult to predict competitors actions" sounds a lot like dynamic intuition () and therefore is rather pro-gamma.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Also, now that I've read your post more clearly, I would agree that the integral type of the capitalist or entrepreneur or enterpriser or whatever you call it is Gamma. I still don't think there is an integral type of "capitalism", though, as not everyone in favor of capitalism is a businessman.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. Could you explain more?

    As a philosophy of government and the economy, capitalism is often distorted by gammas, as businesses often work to get gov't subsidies and pay lobbyists to try to push legislation in their favor. That is actually going against capitalism.
    Another good point. I think the distinction should be made between the ideal of capitalism and the real-world implementation of it. However, I think we differ on what does and does not fit into the ideal concept of capitalism. If we consider a spectrum where on one end we have "pure capitalism", and "pure socialism" on the other, then I would consider a totally laissez-faire free market to be on the pure capitalism, and government interventions of this ideal would be steps toward socialism, with complete government control equating to pure socialism. (Socialism probably isn't the best word to use here, because of its association to previous attempts at socialist states, which tend to be heavily totalitarian.)

    While there is definitely a strong gamma influence in shaping the way capitalism is today, I'm not sure whether this is a distortion of pure capitalism itself. I think that laissez-faire capitalism would have no problems with, and in fact would encourage, phenomena such as lobbying and financial control of government. Perhaps this wouldn't happen if the government was completely cut off from the economy, but then we run into a problem of coming up with a way of actually making this work in real life.

    One more thing I want to bring up is barriers to entry. In an ideal free market, everyone is allowed to enter and leave the market freely at no cost (suggesting ). However, in the real world, there exist barriers to entry, which may be huge depending on the specific trade. This inevitably leads to monopolization, which can only be "fixed" by government intervention (that is, the government limits , which corresponds to anti-capitalism). So we see that although capitalism is supposedly intended to allow free , in reality it becomes suppressed, and we are left with a market of only a few serious competitors (), watching how they play out over time ().

  12. #132
    JRiddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Indian Territory
    TIM
    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
    Posts
    838
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm not pretending to have all the answers here. You make good points, and I can see the Gamma values. The real thing that confused me about all this talk of capitalism being gamma was that I tend to think of government in general as anti-alpha (or at least anti-). Any kind of reduction in the power of government, to my way of thinking is pro-alpha. But this is just my point of view.

    This is specifically why I have trouble pinning down particular political and economic types to socionic types. Each type is typically necessary in any society, so any form of government that spans so many different cultures and countries is gonna be hard to type. I would agree that capitalism, as it appears here in the US, is predominantly gamma. But other countries with very free markets, say Switzerland and Singapore, strike me as more Delta.

    Also I think part of the difference on our perspectives here may be due to a different emphasis on and . I see these things through the lens of , and evaluate these systems based on their ideals. You probably use more, and evaluate these systems based on their structure. I dunno. It is an interesting discussion though.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  13. #133
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,087
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Um, Alphas are typically capitalists. It doesn't really make sense for the quadra that is known for radical individualism to support a collectivist system. Collectivism is stereotypical logic. Alphas usually want pure freedom. Alphas usually disregard morality in politics. They believe that people should be able to live their lives as the want to, and shouldn't be controlled by group play.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  14. #134
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,087
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    I'm not pretending to have all the answers here. You make good points, and I can see the Gamma values. The real thing that confused me about all this talk of capitalism being gamma was that I tend to think of government in general as anti-alpha (or at least anti-). Any kind of reduction in the power of government, to my way of thinking is pro-alpha. But this is just my point of view.

    This is specifically why I have trouble pinning down particular political and economic types to socionic types. Each type is typically necessary in any society, so any form of government that spans so many different cultures and countries is gonna be hard to type. I would agree that capitalism, as it appears here in the US, is predominantly gamma. But other countries with very free markets, say Switzerland and Singapore, strike me as more Delta.

    Also I think part of the difference on our perspectives here may be due to a different emphasis on and . I see these things through the lens of , and evaluate these systems based on their ideals. You probably use more, and evaluate these systems based on their structure. I dunno. It is an interesting discussion though.
    And socialism requires more government power.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  15. #135
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,477
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Um, Alphas are typically capitalists. It doesn't really make sense for the quadra that is known for radical individualism to support a collectivist system. Collectivism is stereotypical logic. Alphas usually want pure freedom. Alphas usually disregard morality in politics. They believe that people should be able to live their lives as the want to, and shouldn't be controlled by group play.
    This may be partly true, but my father is an INTj as you are. He was born in Iran, and he saw what western capitalism does to a country who is firmly controlled by the west. He lived in poverty for most of his childhood. For that period, his lunch usually consisted of a piece of bread with the mold scraped off and some water. There was oil under his feet, but the Shah of Iran and his American supporters did not spread the oil wealth to the people who deserved that oil. It was their country too, but capitalism didn't permit the wealth to be distributed, so he went hungry for many years.

    Now, he is 56 years old, and he intensely dislikes free market consumerism for what it did to his early childhood. Religion and events in your life in your can have a profound effect.

    Just wanted to get that out there.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  16. #136
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,087
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    This world hasn't seen anything resembling a free market since the 1800s, and even then it only resembled a free market. We live in a world full of corporatism.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  17. #137
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,477
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Call it what you wish, but if America is a "free market"/capitalistic ecomony, it was capitalism that screwed many oil-rich countries over in the 50's and 60's.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  18. #138
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,087
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    Call it what you wish, but if America is a "free market"/capitalistic ecomony, it was capitalism that screwed many oil-rich countries over in the 50's and 60's.
    If you think that the US is a free market, then you don't know what a free market is.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  19. #139
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wisconsin
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    4,477
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    If you think that the US is a free market, then you don't know what a free market is.
    I go by what they call themselves. America was definitely a free market originally , if not, how else could the corporations become so deep-rooted?

    Anyway, whether or not if the US is a free market is besides the point. I was merely stating that not all Alphas necessarily enjoy capitalism, especially if they were screwed over in their youth.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  20. #140

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I've known plenty of Alpha anti-capitalists... I've also known anti-capitalists from other quadras. It's wrong to say that Alpha = capitalism or Alpha = anti-capitalism. Your political beliefs have way more to do with your background than your type.

    Um, Alphas are typically capitalists. It doesn't really make sense for the quadra that is known for radical individualism to support a collectivist system. Collectivism is stereotypical logic. Alphas usually want pure freedom. Alphas usually disregard morality in politics. They believe that people should be able to live their lives as the want to, and shouldn't be controlled by group play.
    Um, I think you're just projecting your own values onto the Alpha quadra. Everyone wants freedom, and different people have different ideas of what political/economic system is the best -- regardless of their quadras.

    (And anyone with brains knows that capitalism sucks. ;P )
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

  21. #141
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,087
    Mentioned
    200 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo View Post
    I've known plenty of Alpha anti-capitalists... I've also known anti-capitalists from other quadras. It's wrong to say that Alpha = capitalism or Alpha = anti-capitalism. Your political beliefs have way more to do with your background than your type.


    Um, I think you're just projecting your own values onto the Alpha quadra. Everyone wants freedom, and different people have different ideas of what political/economic system is the best -- regardless of their quadras.

    (And anyone with brains knows that capitalism sucks. ;P )
    No, anyone with brains would realize that socialism is a form of control. In socialism you are being told what to do. You are basically the groups bitch.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  22. #142

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    75
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    No, anyone with brains would realize that socialism is a form of control. In socialism you are being told what to do. You are basically the groups bitch.
    Hmm... so is beta the quadra of evil collectivist socialists who eat babies? And what does that leave for Gamma and Delta? How about fascism for Gamma? I'm out of ideas for Delta..

    It does complicate things that Karl Marx is usually typed as Alpha NT.. grr, how can we explain that? I guess he must be the collectivist subtype -- I mean, we totally need a way to explain this with socionics theory!

    Anyway, try getting an everyday job or running low on money, then come back and preach about how capitalism is the pinnacle of individual freedom.
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •