Function Seeking?

[Logos]

What do the individual functions gain or achieve in a pairing with their "dual" function? Why does even care about ? I would like to know this for all functions and not necessarily just and .

[tcaudilllg]

One thing I've been thinking about recently: draws out by unearthing the potentials within objects. Think of the fruits of negotiation between countries, even if no potential is seemingly evident for a resolution. Once you have diplomacy, peace becomes easier.

creates a social context for 's relevance. restrains from getting "caught up in itself."

[Ms. Kensington]

I think in real life duals feel as if they are useful with each other because they are receptive to each other's talents. And in the area of the dual's expertise, the person with their program function in their dual seeking function would be receiving helpful advice.

What follows is a description of what i've seen in real life and not necessarily why it happens..

Te dominants enjoy when their advice is accepted. They feel useful when it affects someone they care about, helps them. My father recently helped me with some car problems that he had researched and gave me a bunch of info that I actually used. I thanked him and he was very satisfied. Te/Fi live in worlds that evolve and in which such information will be pertinent. Edit: I just remembered my INFj friend used to say "don't explain, just change your behavior". I see that as seeing speech about information as more valuable than that of emotion.

I am a Ti dominant. I feel more comfortable if other people tell me how they are feeling. I enjoy expressive people who will tell me how they are feeling. I enjoy people who can tell be about social norms, because my thinking processes about social matters pertain to collectives and not to individuals; i live in a world that is ultimately logical EDIT2: live in a world that I make logical. I don't know if Fe dominants need people to Ti for them, but talking to an ENFj for many hours I noticed that he did seem to seek Ti.. always saying,, "what is my point" and "what was I talking about?" and he would appreciate it when I restated it or indicated I knew what he was talking about. In this real life experience I don't know if I needed his Fe but I can just say it felt damn good. Honestly it was so much Fe i was just overwhelmed; I don't think it was because I was like "dude look at all this Fe info I can Ti" it just felt good even though I wasnt doing anything with it. In a way I see dual seeking functions simply allowing a place for it to flow into and be received; I see this in the Se/Ni and Si/Ne pairs most.

[Exodus]

S brings N down to earth, N helps S get in touch with the universe, F creates personal meaning for T, and T (as tc pointed out) brings clarity to F.

[ataronchronon]

I just started working with an ESE (she's nice to have around) and she always laughs when I give her a really concise answer, like she'll ask if I want to get lunch, and I'll simply say "yea" and she thinks it's the funniest thing in the world for some reason, that I would give such a short answer (I'm still a little confused, I don't know why she thinks that). I'll also see her struggling to communicate a work related idea and I know what she is trying to say, so I would have the ability to say concisely, if I wasn't across the hall at the time.

[Logos]

S brings N down to earth, N helps S get in touch with the universe, F creates personal meaning for T, and T (as tc pointed out) brings clarity to F.

While tcaudilllg already touched upon it, I would have preferred something a little more specific as to why with and to , etc.

[Kristiina]

This is a very good question and I've asked myself that quite many times.

is a way of collecting impressions into a systematic world-view. It's not only a ENFj thing. I've noticed an ESFj sometimes basing her entire opinion on the impression she had got from a previous vague experience with a similar topic. But somehow the underlying knowledge is that only the system makes it work. Just having an opinion about things would be pointless and one would have no use of it for future knowledge if there was no system. This is why clicks particularly well with - it is a system based on factual data. Fe needs an occasional reality check to keep it from drifting too deeply into the subjective world. (You've all seen some Fe dominant, who has ignored Ti for some reason and has strong but immensely stupid personal opinions). It is very useful for me to talk to dominants because they give me generalizations that I can learn from. would just say, "it is true in this particular case" and I can only use the knowledge this one time, and I will have to collect raw data to make my own rule. "would it also be true in that case? what about a third case? how about if...". And does not help because it doesn't generalize things and it doesn't even give the kind of factual data that I need.

I do not know why needs .

I barely care about why needs and vice versa, but I do believe they deserve each other. (no offence to my dear husband who fortunately is more than )

needs because it is a way of seeing the "could be" world. Drifting too far into the "could be" will hinder activity, because the amount of choices starts growing. So many options, all are good. Can not choose. I can seriously spend minutes and minutes picking out regular cheese. Everything becomes hypothetical in the eyes of and nothing matters anymore. It takes a long time for the reality to start pressuring the undecided person into motion. Usually it requires some imminent disaster to motivate. But really it takes a lot of energy to live like that. person would feel pressured much sooner and therefore would pressure the person into activity long before any real disaster. would not help because tries to get the person to stop pondering about the future all the time. This way the person helps prolong the procrastination and increases the resulting stress. doesn't help because he keeps feeding other alternatives and keeps reassuring that there are many options and that the Ni person doesn't need to concentrate on one thing. This also prolongs procrastination because advice weakens the resolve to do what's necessary.

needs because (as I remember from somewhere) they want a goal to direct their energy to. They do have a lot of energy, but they need to be sure that their everyday efforts are not in vain and it will all lead to somewhere good. would just say, "relax, stop trying so hard", but that would almost sound like a bad omen that there is nothing better in the future, making it all seem pointless. says, "You don't have to do what you're doing right now, you could do something else in stead", which also gives the feeling that he's spending his energy for no good reason.

I don't know the reasons of and dual compatibility.

(If you go this far in reading my long and somewhat scattered post, I salute you)

[Jarno]

I always thought that because of the weak development of the uncouscious function, you would gladly get help in that area.

That's why they call it seeking... seeking for help.

I don't think that other functions gain anything from it, just your uncounscious undeveloped function gets help.

[Logos]

I always thought that because of the weak development of the uncouscious function, you would gladly get help in that area.

That's why they call it seeking... seeking for help.

I don't think that other functions gain anything from it, just your uncounscious undeveloped function gets help.

Well that is the technical answer at least, but not a very satisfactory answer.

[Blaze]

good post kriistina. that explains things pretty well.

could i possibly be estp?

[Ms. Kensington]

I do feel that Ti and Fe fit together and Te and Fi fit together but in a way that can be explained in the real world, since you need to interact with people in the real world. But it is hard to explain theoretically why they need each other.

But as I said Ti sees the world as being entirely governed by rules. It makes sense that he would find valuable information that is common to society rather than what is useful to one person. Kind of how you were saying, kristiina, that Fe dominants can not be as satisfied with Te info because it seems to be useful in one case only. Info about societal norms fit with his view of universal rules. Ti and Fe see the world the same way.

[Ms. Kensington]

also logos, i do think that a Ti dominant can seem not to care about Fe but that they gain some ease of working real world situations out if they have someone who is giving Fe info. It's like, I am internalizing an alphabet, and i ask an Fe dominant to pronounce the letters. (is that a good example)?

[tcaudilllg]

I do feel that Ti and Fe fit together and Te and Fi fit together but in a way that can be explained in the real world, since you need to interact with people in the real world. But it is hard to explain theoretically why they need each other.

But as I said Ti sees the world as being entirely governed by rules. It makes sense that he would find valuable information that is common to society rather than what is useful to one person. Kind of how you were saying, kristiina, that Fe dominants can not be as satisfied with Te info because it seems to be useful in one case only. Info about societal norms fit with his view of universal rules. Ti and Fe see the world the same way.

One way is to create diagrams. I'm working on diagrams of the IM-IE element pairings for this reason.

Sometimes one's dual function may seem like what is needed, but unless it actually assists as regards cooperation of energies it may not be of practical utility. It's a question of whether your dual is giving you the information you need to survive, or giving you the information and effort both.

(struggling with the words as to what I'm trying to say.)

[Logos]

I do feel that Ti and Fe fit together and Te and Fi fit together but in a way that can be explained in the real world, since you need to interact with people in the real world. But it is hard to explain theoretically why they need each other.

But as I said Ti sees the world as being entirely governed by rules. It makes sense that he would find valuable information that is common to society rather than what is useful to one person. Kind of how you were saying, kristiina, that Fe dominants can not be as satisfied with Te info because it seems to be useful in one case only. Info about societal norms fit with his view of universal rules. Ti and Fe see the world the same way.

One way is to create diagrams. I'm working on diagrams of the IM-IE element pairings for this reason.

Sometimes one's dual function may seem like what is needed, but unless it actually assists as regards cooperation of energies it may not be of practical utility. It's a question of whether your dual is giving you the information you need to survive, or giving you the information and effort both.

(struggling with the words as to what I'm trying to say.)

I am looking forward to seeing these diagrams then.

Perhaps it is that Ti operates in the context of normalcy defined by what is Fe?

[Luke]

Perhaps it is that Ti operates in the context of normalcy defined by what is Fe?

That's an interesting thought. Perhaps a function sees it's dual as a sort of normalized context within which it can productively operate.

[Expat]

is a way of collecting impressions into a systematic world-view. It's not only a ENFj thing. I've noticed an ESFj sometimes basing her entire opinion on the impression she had got from a previous vague experience with a similar topic. But somehow the underlying knowledge is that only the system makes it work. Just having an opinion about things would be pointless and one would have no use of it for future knowledge if there was no system. This is why clicks particularly well with - it is a system based on factual data. Fe needs an occasional reality check to keep it from drifting too deeply into the subjective world. (You've all seen some Fe dominant, who has ignored Ti for some reason and has strong but immensely stupid personal opinions). It is very useful for me to talk to dominants because they give me generalizations that I can learn from. would just say, "it is true in this particular case" and I can only use the knowledge this one time, and I will have to collect raw data to make my own rule. "would it also be true in that case? what about a third case? how about if...". And does not help because it doesn't generalize things and it doesn't even give the kind of factual data that I need.

I do not know why needs .

is attuned to the dynamic changes that are not well-defined ie they are not as defined as those that sees; is not well-defined because nothing connected to themes - social roles, emotional atmospheres, moods - can be really well-defined, in the end it remains a matter of personal evaluation. And personal evaluation is what is about. So and work together, both fine-tuning personal evaluations of fitting into a structure. The difference is that types are more adept at putting a structure together than connecting it to the outside world of emotions and roles; types are more adept at evaluating the outside world of emotions rather than making them (or anything else) fit into a structure.

I barely care about why needs and vice versa, but I do believe they deserve each other. (no offence to my dear husband who fortunately is more than

Like and , and is about two sides of the same coin in terms of static structure and dynamic changes.

In terms of types, types lack confidence on their evaluation of , so they need someone to help them with that. That someone has to relay information to without any distortion as to the external reality. is the structure that allows the type to know who is going to do that - in plain words, who they can trust to pass correct information without interference from their own or .

The - axis only works in the context of a greater social environment, otherwise it makes no sense. And the axis only works in the context of one-to-one interactions.

[Expat]

Ok, that was a bit confusing.

Very simplistically:

- Fe-Ti: two people helping each other to interact properly in a bigger social group and maintain consistency in that.
- Te-Fi: two people helping each other to use impersonal information of the external world. Bigger social groups play no role.

[Logos]

is attuned to the dynamic changes that are not well-defined ie they are not as defined as those that sees; is not well-defined because nothing connected to matters - social roles, emotional atmospheres, moods - can be really well-defined, in the end it remains a matter of personal evaluation. And personal evaluation is what is about. So and work together, both fine-tuning personal evaluations of fitting into a structure. The difference is that types are more adept at putting a structure together than connecting it to the outside world of emotions and roles; types are more adept at evaluating the outside world of emotions rather than making them (or anything else) fit into a structure.

Apart from this bit in bold, that was an excellent post.

[Expat]

Why? Maybe you misunderstood me; perhaps if I replace "matters" with "themes"?

[Logos]

Why? Maybe you misunderstood me; perhaps if I replace "matters" with "themes"?

Sorry, I was reading "matters" as "worth or value" and not as "affairs or concerns."

[Expat]

Still on this --

A Fe EJ and a Ti IJ are both looking at the same kind of information, primarily: the external Fe input, structured by Ti.
The ESFj and the INTj (for example) both have the same aims, but can only provide half of the skills. So the ESFj reads the Fe input accurately, and the INTj makes sense out of it. That is the essence of the ESFj narrating in detail the events of the day to the INTj: "here's the raw Fe data, now make some sense out of it".

The same goes for the Te EJ and the Fi IJ. They are both looking at the external Te input, given structure, or meaning, by Fi. The ENTj reads the Te input accurately, and the ISFj makes sense of it according to Fi. That is the essence of the ENTj bouncing off facts and evaluating efficiency of actions with the ISFj, which then reaches conclusions (for the ISFj or the ENTj, or both) according to what is best according to Fi.

[Kristiina]

Still on this --

A Fe EJ and a Ti IJ are both looking at the same kind of information, primarily: the external Fe input, structured by Ti.
The ESFj and the INTj (for example) both have the same aims, but can only provide half of the skills. So the ESFj reads the Fe input accurately, and the INTj makes sense out of it. That is the essence of the ESFj narrating in detail the events of the day to the INTj: "here's the raw Fe data, now make some sense out of it".

The same goes for the Te EJ and the Fi IJ. They are both looking at the external Te input, given structure, or meaning, by Fi. The ENTj reads the Te input accurately, and the ISFj makes sense of it according to Fi. That is the essence of the ENTj bouncing off facts and evaluating efficiency of actions with the ISFj, which then reaches conclusions (for the ISFj or the ENTj, or both) according to what is best according to Fi.

yeah, that makes sense. Not only in theory but also in real life. Now thinking back on it, I sometimes hear my ISFp mother describing events of the day to my ESTj father and he tries to be extra supportive and says things like, "yes, that was a good (beneficial/productive) idea!" and it doesn't seem to give my mother what she needs.