Raise your hand

[Logos]

He put up examples but didn't explain how they show Ti at ALL. I don't see it, Ms. K doesn't see it, but he says, "I assumed it was self-evident." No, things aren't self-evident. I still don't see this Ti>Te preference.

How explicit does he have to be? I've seen even -to-the-letter-Expat get away with less here and there.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[implied]

lol i hate the "it's obvious!" thing. i swear this is why people wind up hating these INTj math professors and such.


at any rate, i have also wondered if heath could be a -valuing type. yet he oddly reminds me of an ENFj friend of mine. ): i don't have any objections against ISTp though as he seems to obviously have somewhere handy (hoo hoo.)

[Logos]

lol i hate the "it's obvious!" thing. i swear this is why people wind up hating these INTj math professors and such.


at any rate, i have also wondered if heath could be a -valuing type. yet he oddly reminds me of an ENFj friend of mine. ):

Of course the "it's obvious" thing of INTj math professors is offset by the creative- which teaches the general idea and communications the points quite well. And I have known just as many hated INTp math professors as well, so the type of professor who is hated is incredibly subjective and not necessarily something which you assume to be set in stone as true.

[implied]

lol i hate the "it's obvious!" thing. i swear this is why people wind up hating these INTj math professors and such.


at any rate, i have also wondered if heath could be a -valuing type. yet he oddly reminds me of an ENFj friend of mine. ):

Of course the "it's obvious" thing of INTj math professors is offset by the creative- which teaches the general idea and communications the points quite well. And I have known just as many hated INTp math professors as well, so the type of professor who is hated is incredibly subjective and not necessarily something which you assume to be set in stone as true.

yes, there are many types of hated professors, but i feel like the "it's obvious!" form of teaching does jack shit for the student. if it were that obvious, i wouldn't be taking the class in the first place and would have exempt those classes. i just feel like telling these guys to learn to actually teach.

[Ms. Kensington]

It is that Ti tone that pisses me off so much. And which, by the way, I've never gotten from Heath's posts. "It's obvious - can't you see it?" ARGH. NO it is NOT obvious - it is JUST IN YOUR HEAD. And you can imagine anything you want but that doesn't make it so, and it doesn't make it obvious.

This is interesting, because I didn't get that tone from Gilly's post at all. I thought it sounded apologetic, (but the one below it actually apologizing if he assumed too much did have a tone to it because he was giving Fe by using caps )

[Logos]

yes, there are many types of hated professors, but i feel like the "it's obvious!" form of teaching does jack shit for the student. if it were that obvious, i wouldn't be taking the class in the first place and would have exempt those classes. i just feel like telling these guys to learn to actually teach.

But the "it's obvious" thing is actually not that common, but instead INTj professors generally will teach the system of the subject and provide you with the means to fill in the facts at your own leisure as opposed to the INTp professor who gives you the facts and then expects you to either learn the system on your own or drown trying.

[Exodus]

I agree that INTj teachers generally should be careful about neglecting Fe by saying things like that.

[Ms. Kensington]

yes, there are many types of hated professors, but i feel like the "it's obvious!" form of teaching does jack shit for the student. if it were that obvious, i wouldn't be taking the class in the first place and would have exempt those classes. i just feel like telling these guys to learn to actually teach.

But the "it's obvious" thing is actually not that common, but instead INTj professors generally will teach the system of the subject and provide you with the means to fill in the facts at your own leisure as opposed to the INTp professor who gives you the facts and then expects you to either learn the system on your own or drown trying.

interesting as well

I also feel like the INTp teacher will be implying wordlessly that it's obvious when I am drowning.. cool.

[Khamelion]

Dumbledore is not Ti>Te.....

[Logos]

Dumbledore is not Ti>Te.....

Dumbledore can be whatever type Dumbledore wants to be. Simple as that.

[olduser]

enfp would be my typing. but i don't know. he's complex, and i don't want to get his professional role and role in the plot mixed up with his character.

[meatburger]

Then they piss and jack off on each other while grunting about how manly they are or whatever they do. I really don't know. I can see the appeal of that type of man, but it's not somebody that would speak to my 'soul' I don't think, even if I do want to be wildly throat fucked by them.

You made me spray my breakfast weetbix with this lol

I dunno about heath haha. He recons he INTj? I very much doubt it. I thought ESTj but who knows

[Gilly]

I don't get it! Why does everything I say seem to naturally piss people off? This never happens in real life. What is it about KNOWING that you should naturally have some beef with me that makes you feel the need to CREATE conflict? I mean, clearly, you're trying to blame this whole misunderstand on my being a Ti type, and are for some reason feeling entitled to use the fact that you don't like some of my specific behavior as a reason to not consider heath as having something in common with me. Whatever, Nicky.

That right there is one answer to your question. Assumptions. Making assumptions about people and their motivations. Of course people are going to get pissed off when you do that.

Anyway, none of your examples shows Ti obviously, and reading the definition of Ti a hundred times, and understanding it's every detail isn't going to make heath's statements automatically seem Ti to everyone.

Explain, elaborate, lay out the definition of Ti, how you see it, show explicity how what heath says demonstrates that. Just pointing and saying "It's obvious, it's obvious!" doesn't help at all.

Alright, you want me to REALLY lay it out for you? For all you seem to assume that you know about Socionics, I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you this stuff.

Ti is the External Statics of Fields.

External means that it has observable impact on the material world as we perceive it.

Statics means that it implies a property that does not NECESSARILY change in relation to the passage of time.

Fields means that it references direct relationships between two or more objects.

Example 1 is, as I've said, simply a small indicator of Super-Ego Fi.

Example 2: Heath is implying a constant relationship (static field) between displaying a wide variety of preferred beers, and being a heavy drinker (two external factors; ie, physical actions).

Example 3: Heath is implying that monster attacks only occur at the dinner table (static relationship between external concepts: the dinner table and monster attacks

Example 4: Heath implies that there is not a static relationship between the physical (ie external) actions of playing music in the womb and hearing music in one's head.

Example 5: Heath says that "Jessica is only this aggressive because she's completely smashed," implying that there is an exclusive static relationship between the external occurances of jessica being aggressive and Jessica being smashed.

Example 6 is, again, a potential example of Id Fe.

[Khamelion]

Dumbledore is ENTj, read the last book it so obvious!!! You learn about the real Dumbledore, not just the Head Master of Hogwards Dumbledore. Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore!

Also, if any of you are trying to type Dumbledore based only on his character in the movie, I don't want to hear it.

[Khamelion]

Dumbledore is not Ti>Te.....

Dumbledore can be whatever type Dumbledore wants to be. Simple as that.

Nu uh...

[Logos]

Dumbledore is not Ti>Te.....

Dumbledore can be whatever type Dumbledore wants to be. Simple as that.

Nu uh...

What, are you going to go tell Dumbledore that he is not whatever type he wants to be? Go ahead.

[olduser]

psst. he's not entj.

[Khamelion]

psst. he's not entj.

Can't you see how he grasps at Harry for Fi?!?! THE AMOUNTS OF TE, CAN'T YOU SEEEEE? How he dominates Beta aka Voldemort!

What, are you going to go tell Dumbledore that he is not whatever type he wants to be? Go ahead.

Well if I had the option of talking with him about it, I suppose I'd discuss it with him first.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Logos]

Gilligan, don't be a arrogant jerk. I don't care what you have to say about Ti. I was trying to tell you how to communicate so that you explain your points where people might want to listen to them, rather than strutting about saying how right you are, and how obvious it is, without giving anyone even the slightest of reasons.

You said you don't get why everything you say pisses people off, I think you can figure it out if you think about it. Nothing I said was trying to stir anything up with you.

And I disagree. If heath is Ti, those are poor examples to show it. You're stretching things beyond any kind of meaning. If you pick apart his sentences you can apply similar reasonings for other functions. This minute studying of language, while an example of Ti itself, - and a favorite of another Ti - tcaudilllg, doesn't to me show anything of substance. It shows me that YOU have a preference for Ti. But not a lot about heath's.

Not that I necessarily agree with Gilly's assessment, but I am curious, what sort of "facts of substance" would Gilly have to show? How would he have to present his case?

ETA: Also be aware that you too are being a bit unreasonable with Gilly with all this dismissal of his points as "You and your Ti." I imagine that you would not want to be dismissed or accused of being an "arrogant jerk" just because you use Fi.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[olduser]

This thread has experienced a serious thematic shift and i have little desire to recover the original. Figght fight fight!!

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Logos]

ETA: Also be aware that you too are being a bit unreasonable with Gilly with all this dismissal of his points as "You and your Ti." I imagine that you would not want to be dismissed or accused of being an "arrogant jerk" just because you use Fi.

I called him an arrogant jerk because of this: "Alright, you want me to REALLY lay it out for you? For all you seem to assume that you know about Socionics, I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you this stuff."

Yeah, I knew that much, but there does seem to be an incredible amount of "gimme and cut the " that is being said in a way that is obviously not getting what you want from him. And if you are aware that this is how Ti-folk naturally operate, then his belief in the self-evidence of these "truths" probably are not because he is an "arrogant jerk" but just how he operates status mundi. And instead of saying, "where's the Te?" you should say, "Here is the Te and Ti (if you are willing to flex it) of our own in regards to heath's type."

especially since I wasn't even asking him to lay it out for me. I was telling him that it'd be better to explain his point of view clearly than to tell everyone that it was obvious and they should see it.

Well if you were telling him, you probably should have asked him instead. :wink:

And Gilly, since by this point it is obviously not obvious for some people in regards to your original point, just give the reader what it wants.

This thread has experienced a serious thematic shift and i have little desire to recover the original. Figght fight fight!!

*looks around wondering where the fight is*

I'm kind of wondering that too.

[olduser]

i concede. it isn't a fight but it's a welcome distraction.

[Gilly]

Alright, Diana. I get it. I can't win with you. I'm really not sure what you want me to say or do, because even when I DO explain my reasoning, you say that I'm full of shit and am still being arrogant. Every time. I just don't know what to say anymore; what answer can I give you that won't piss you off?

I don't mind if you don't like my approach, but don't attack me for typing by information elements. Not like I INSISTED that I'm right about his type or anything...I'm just giving people something to think about.

[Gilly]

FWIW, I think the argument for heath being LSE is merely based on the fact that he seems like a responsible, reasonable guy who takes care of himself. I don't see anything really Te coming out of him; he has Ti humor and Ti communication, as far as I can see. I also see no basic similarities to the Te dominants I know. He's much more cutting, and seems a little more go with the flow; the LSEs I know tend to stand out in some way, whether they try to or not, and generally make a more benevolent impression than I get from heath. When LSEs make potentially controversial remarks for humor, and they know that they're being a little "over the edge," they laugh afterwards so people KNOW they're not trying to be mean or insulting; stuff like that. Heath strikes me as the kind of guy who would say something ridiculous with a straight face, and only let the cat out of the bag once someone has reacted.

Just my impression; NOT trying to force it on anyone or be a know-it-all or offend people or act like I have all the answers.

...Christ, is this REALLY the kind of place that I should have to write a disclaimer like that? I hope/wish not...

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Gilly]

Well, that's what it feels like. You hound my posts, then ask me to explain myself, and after I go to the effort of making everything explicit (which I see as entirely unnecessary, given all you claim to know, which is apparently at least enough to feel justified in calling me out), you just sit there and fluff your tail feathers and say that I'm full of shit. If you don't like the way I think, then why bother asking me to explain myself? Don't waste any more of my time, or yours. We clearly have nothing to gain from this crap; if this keeps up, we're going to end up ignoring each other, and there's nothing productive about that.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Blaze]

huh.

FWIW diana you sounded upset to me too.

Ne can be annoying to some....thing is, it just has to come out, all vague and unsubstantiated. it bounces around asking for refinement and feedback....nothing is absolute and a variety of conclusions can be reached.

the best thing to do is ask it questions and make it explain itself. Ne that is. :wink: "how did you get there?" "what leads you to draw that conclusion?" "in what ways are these things related?"

but don't take it personally. ever!

[Joy]

I don't see Te specifically. I see rational negativist Si.

[Gilly]

Excuse me for assuming that people who CLAIM to know the definitions of functions don't really need complete explanations that, with their understanding of functions, they should be able to deduce on their own. If people will least admit that they need help in understanding, and ask for my help without ACCUSING me, I am MORE than happy to oblige, and there's no need for you to come in here and assume that you have to call me out to provoke an explanation. But if I get treated like a fraudulent know-it-all, well, I'm not exactly going to be inclined to help people, now am I? Christ, and you people say that I lack tact...give me a fuggin break, here...

[Gilly]

I don't see Te specifically. I see rational negativist Si.

So are you at least willing to consider LII? HA can appear strong, at least superficially, remember?

[Joy]

Excuse me for assuming that people who CLAIM to know the definitions of functions don't really need complete explanations that, with their understanding of functions, they should be able to deduce on their own.

Knowing definitions of functions and understanding how someone is applying them to a situation are two entirely different things. It's the application that

If people will least admit that they need help in understanding, and ask for my help without ACCUSING me, I am MORE than happy to oblige, and there's no need for you to come in here and assume that you have to call me out to provoke an explanation. But if I get treated like a fraudulent know-it-all, well, I'm not exactly going to be inclined to help people, now am I? Christ, and you people say that I lack tact...give me a fuggin break, here...

You know they make a pill for that?

[Gilly]

Not, but I'm not surprised that you do.

[Joy]

I don't see Te specifically. I see rational negativist Si.

So are you at least willing to consider LII? HA can appear strong, at least superficially, remember?

I dunno, INTjs have never been able to criticize me and get the same response that heath does. INTjs aren't at all threatening or upsetting... at their worst, they're just boring. (At their best they're delightfully interesting and quite amusing.)

I don't have a strong opinion on heath's type, but everything I've ever read has pointed me in the Delta ST direction, even when he wasn't talking to or about me or anything that has do to with me (which he usually isn't, of course). Slacker Mom said a while back that it seems like the Delta's appreciate his humor the most. I wouldn't know, but his humor does seem more "earthy" than what I'd typically expect from an INTj.

But hey, if I can be INFj, then he can be INTj.

[Gilly]

Nice :wink: