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Thread: Questions about enneagram types and wings

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    Default Questions about enneagram types and wings

    If you're deciding between a couple types, are you most likely to be whichever type's wings are more favorable than the other?
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    Also, do Enneagram "professionals" believe that wings can change?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    If you're deciding between a couple types, are you most likely to be whichever type's wings are more favorable than the other?
    Qualify "favorable" for me?

    Generally, it's helpful to consider the associated I-E aspects of type when between two different ones -- Like 5 vs 8. Fives are on the whole, an Introverted group. Eights are strongly Extroverted. Don't confuse "introverting" and "extroverting" with the fundamental orientation, though. All types can do either at different/appropriate times.

    Another way is peripheral -- 5s tend to be P, 8s tend to be J. 5s dislike giving direction, so assume that loading you up with information will suffice. 8s cut to the chase and say "Do this". 8s are good directors/supervisors, etc. They're at home with being an active authority ("chief") and giving direction to others. 5s are more comfortable being passive authority (the knowledge base or "shaman").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Also, do Enneagram "professionals" believe that wings can change?
    Generally, no. (And I personally don't either).

    But there's certainly a subset of people who claim both wings, switch off, loudly announce when their using A wing or B wing, etc. Noodling around with the concept, a bunch of us came up with the concept of "shadow" wing, akin to Jung's idea of 4th function. It does seem plausible that issues of your "non-active" wing come into play unconsciously -- as do those of your "last" instinct (ie: sp/sx/so -- so is the neglected instinct).

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    If you're deciding between a couple types, are you most likely to be whichever type's wings are more favorable than the other?
    Qualify "favorable" for me?

    Generally, it's helpful to consider the associated I-E aspects of type when between two different ones -- Like 5 vs 8. Fives are on the whole, an Introverted group. Eights are strongly Extroverted. Don't confuse "introverting" and "extroverting" with the fundamental orientation, though. All types can do either at different/appropriate times.

    Another way is peripheral -- 5s tend to be P, 8s tend to be J. 5s dislike giving direction, so assume that loading you up with information will suffice. 8s cut to the chase and say "Do this". 8s are good directors/supervisors, etc. They're at home with being an active authority ("chief") and giving direction to others. 5s are more comfortable being passive authority (the knowledge base or "shaman").

    Along the same lines, an 8w7 would be much louder and visible, where as an 8w9 would seem less so, and possibly more introverted.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default ates.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Along the same lines, an 8w7 would be much louder and visible, where as an 8w9 would seem less so, and possibly more introverted.
    8w7s would be much more outrageous, yes. And more openly flouting of existing hierarchies. I knew an 8w9 pretty well, and it was more a matter of "velvet glove" authority. He was never really "loud" per se, but there was never any doubt that he would walk into a room and exert alpha-control. Everyone saw him as a center of gravity.

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    Joy, I really cannot see you as an 8w7. That's the most openly forceful, commanding Enneagram type there is; I could only ever imagine an ESxx as this type. Trust me, my mother is one; you are not.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Joy, I really cannot see you as an 8w7. That's the most openly forceful, commanding Enneagram type there is; I could only ever imagine an ESxx as this type.
    I know a 8w7 ENFJ at work. She's a former Rabbi. Left the "official" ministry because she couldn't stand the bureacracy (sp?)/endless red tape of the traditional religious hierarchy. Too much accommodation and indirectness for her tolerance. Very intense; always talks a bit too loud too...! Passionate, yet idealistic.

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    Regardless of what types are possible 8w7s, I can't see Joy as one.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Think what you'd like.

    aka-kitsune, when I'm at my best I'm more extroverted than most people are. I do tend to take a less direct way of getting what I want or telling others what to do, but my 7 scores are always higher than my 9 scores, and I generally don't respect people who hide from their problems for fear of confronting people. I'm never afraid to confront anyone... I just prefer to do so in a way that is most likely to incite cooperation.
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    Being a 9 wing doesn't mean you have to fear confrontation. My grandfather was an 8w9, and he certainly didn't. Not that I think you're 8w9, either...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Think what you'd like.

    aka-kitsune, when I'm at my best I'm more extroverted than most people are. I do tend to take a less direct way of getting what I want or telling others what to do, but my 7 scores are always higher than my 9 scores, and I generally don't respect people who hide from their problems for fear of confronting people. I'm never afraid to confront anyone... I just prefer to do so in a way that is most likely to incite cooperation.
    btw, that doesn't apply to situations involving people I'm close to, only professional situations
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    Why did you just quote the post I responded to? It doesn't have any response relevant to my post, unless you just meant the first line...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I wasn't responding to you, I was adding to what I had said. I already told you to think what you want.
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    Righto.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    and I generally don't respect people who hide from their problems for fear of confronting people. I'm never afraid to confront anyone... I just prefer to do so in a way that is most likely to incite cooperation.

    relate x 10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Think what you'd like.

    aka-kitsune, when I'm at my best I'm more extroverted than most people are. I do tend to take a less direct way of getting what I want or telling others what to do, but my 7 scores are always higher than my 9 scores, and I generally don't respect people who hide from their problems for fear of confronting people. I'm never afraid to confront anyone... I just prefer to do so in a way that is most likely to incite cooperation.
    btw, that doesn't apply to situations involving people I'm close to, only professional situations
    That may be consistent with 8 actually -- I should add that I'm no longer well acquainted with my 8w9 friend. He was VERY avoidant of confrontation in personal relationships. Just passive-aggressive. Never told me if he had a problem with me, just let the friendship die from attrition on his part.

    But in his work, he was always direct in confronting problems. It was "feeling" issues he had difficulty being direct with. (He is a diehard ENTj)

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Think what you'd like.

    aka-kitsune, when I'm at my best I'm more extroverted than most people are. I do tend to take a less direct way of getting what I want or telling others what to do, but my 7 scores are always higher than my 9 scores, and I generally don't respect people who hide from their problems for fear of confronting people. I'm never afraid to confront anyone... I just prefer to do so in a way that is most likely to incite cooperation.
    btw, that doesn't apply to situations involving people I'm close to, only professional situations
    That may be consistent with 8 actually -- I should add that I'm no longer well acquainted with my 8w9 friend. He was VERY avoidant of confrontation in personal relationships. Just passive-aggressive. Never told me if he had a problem with me, just let the friendship die from attrition on his part.

    But in his work, he was always direct in confronting problems. It was "feeling" issues he had difficulty being direct with. (He is a diehard ENTj)
    Victim erotic type?
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    Joy, an 8w7 is the most entrepreneurial of all the types and possesses nearly absurd amounts of energy in pursuing whatever endeavor it wishes to follow. This seems to be quite the opposite of your apparent lack of energy and vivacity, noting the fact that you often complain about your motivation to do things and a confusion between what one should be motivated to do and what one shouldn't be---knowing how to get motivated, primarily. An 8w9, on the otherhand, if you really feel you are as aggressive and authoritative as the description, can make complete sense, due the fact that the 9 presents a sort of lethargic apathy for things and a very family oriented perspective(which I think you have?)Though, personally, 9 sounds to be the most accurate type for you(as you often put motivation as a central problem in your life, a problem many 9s face---and the Enneagram is exactly about what your "central problem" is.)
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Joy, an 8w7 is the most entrepreneurial of all the types and possesses nearly absurd amounts of energy in pursuing whatever endeavor it wishes to follow. This seems to be quite the opposite of your apparent lack of energy and vivacity, noting the fact that you often complain about your motivation to do things and a confusion between what one should be motivated to do and what one shouldn't be---knowing how to get motivated, primarily. An 8w9, on the otherhand, if you really feel you are as aggressive and authoritative as the description, can make complete sense, due the fact that the 9 presents a sort of lethargic apathy for things and a very family oriented perspective(which I think you have?)Though, personally, 9 sounds to be the most accurate type for you(as you often put motivation as a central problem in your life, a problem many 9s face---and the Enneagram is exactly about what your "central problem" is.)
    I think she's a 3 at 9.
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    That sounds possible, FDG, but she seems to ALWAYS be like that(always complaining about those sorts of things.) Maybe.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Joy, an 8w7 is the most entrepreneurial of all the types and possesses nearly absurd amounts of energy in pursuing whatever endeavor it wishes to follow. This seems to be quite the opposite of your apparent lack of energy and vivacity, noting the fact that you often complain about your motivation to do things and a confusion between what one should be motivated to do and what one shouldn't be---knowing how to get motivated, primarily. An 8w9, on the otherhand, if you really feel you are as aggressive and authoritative as the description, can make complete sense, due the fact that the 9 presents a sort of lethargic apathy for things and a very family oriented perspective(which I think you have?)Though, personally, 9 sounds to be the most accurate type for you(as you often put motivation as a central problem in your life, a problem many 9s face---and the Enneagram is exactly about what your "central problem" is.)
    Motivation to complete my goals is never a problem for me, and never has been. The only things I have a difficult time finding the motivation to do are chores and errands, for the most part. Also, you and I haven't talked much since I was at my worst.

    And btw, levels of energy aren't always related to one's type.

    2, 3, and 9 are the types least like me (especially 2 and 9)... but I'm not going to debate my type. Like I said to Gilligan, people can think what they'd like.

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    Actually...

    http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=35:35

    Eights typically have an enormous amount of energy and frequently have powerful physical appetites.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And btw, levels of energy aren't always related to one's type.
    External factors can cause fatigue in any type. Any type can get depressed, sick, etc.

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    You're really good at being the exception, aren't you, Joy?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    My comment isn't about me directly.

    Enneagram and Socionics types are primarily about how a person's brain operates, are they not? Their actions are manifestations of their mental activity, but there is more to it than that. A paraplegic Se dominant isn't going to be as active as your typical Se dominant. While that example is extreme, it is obvious that people's types and their circumstances will determine their actions.

    What determines one's enneagram type, anyways? Isn't it their key fears and motivations? And aren't descriptions just TYPICAL manifestations of those fears and motivations?

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    In the same way that Socionics descriptions are typical behavioral manifestations of functions, yes.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You're really good at being the exception, aren't you, Joy?
    <3 ya
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    Default Re: Enneagram type/wings

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    If you're deciding between a couple types, are you most likely to be whichever type's wings are more favorable than the other?
    Try not to use wings as a way of identifying your (or, for that matter, anyone else's) type. The socionical equivalent would be something like identifying your type based on intertype relationships.

    Nonetheless, it's perhaps a good way of confirming. Which types are you considering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Also, do Enneagram "professionals" believe that wings can change?
    Wings don't change. They're actually quite important when you get to the bottom of one's type, for the sole reason that they are a tool for identifying two different kinds of people of the same type. Take a look at a 6w5 and a 6w7, for example. They can look easily like two different types. A 6w7 is what most descriptions are biased between. However, the 6w5 is more independent, and can resemble a 5 if phobic (technical, loner, expert in certain fields and conerned with knowledge), and even an 8 if counterphobic ('Don't mess with me' stance, aggression). I find that most 6w7s are very easy to identify.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Joy, an 8w7 is the most entrepreneurial of all the types and possesses nearly absurd amounts of energy in pursuing whatever endeavor it wishes to follow. This seems to be quite the opposite of your apparent lack of energy and vivacity, noting the fact that you often complain about your motivation to do things and a confusion between what one should be motivated to do and what one shouldn't be---knowing how to get motivated, primarily. An 8w9, on the otherhand, if you really feel you are as aggressive and authoritative as the description, can make complete sense, due the fact that the 9 presents a sort of lethargic apathy for things and a very family oriented perspective(which I think you have?)Though, personally, 9 sounds to be the most accurate type for you(as you often put motivation as a central problem in your life, a problem many 9s face---and the Enneagram is exactly about what your "central problem" is.)
    I disagree. I don't think Joy's a 9.

    I think there's quite a high probability of her being a 6.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Also, do Enneagram "professionals" believe that wings can change?
    Generally, no. (And I personally don't either).

    But there's certainly a subset of people who claim both wings, switch off, loudly announce when their using A wing or B wing, etc. Noodling around with the concept, a bunch of us came up with the concept of "shadow" wing, akin to Jung's idea of 4th function. It does seem plausible that issues of your "non-active" wing come into play unconsciously -- as do those of your "last" instinct (ie: sp/sx/so -- so is the neglected instinct).
    It's plausible, but to be frank, unnecessary. If an 8 has a 7 and a 9 wing, and is an 8w7, 7 is more dominant than 9, but there is no need for 9 to be dubbed a shadow wing. It obviously plays a role in one's type. Nonetheless, I agree with the theory in terms of instincts. As an so-last, I can say that it has definitely played a role beforehand; it's just that I consider it to be the least important. Sp/sx/so - first is what I need, second is what I want, third is what others want from me; that is my theory of my instinct stacking. I'm technically quite a selfish person.

    Also, if the 8w7's 'shadow' wing is 9 (if I correctly understand your theory), and this is akin to Jung's 4th function, most Enneagram students would disagree. Why? Because Jung's 4th function is vulnerable, and there is not a chance in hell that the 8w7's 9 wing is the equivalent of a PoLR in socionics. If one was an 8, it's more likely that their 'PoLR' as such would be something like type 4 on the Enneagram.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Joy, I really cannot see you as an 8w7. That's the most openly forceful, commanding Enneagram type there is; I could only ever imagine an ESxx as this type.
    I know a 8w7 ENFJ at work. She's a former Rabbi. Left the "official" ministry because she couldn't stand the bureacracy (sp?)/endless red tape of the traditional religious hierarchy. Too much accommodation and indirectness for her tolerance. Very intense; always talks a bit too loud too...! Passionate, yet idealistic.
    I hope you're talking about 'ENFJ' in terms of MBTI, not socionics. There's no way an 8 could ever be an ENFj. As I always do with everyone who thinks either EIE or LIE could be an 8, let me direct you to the ENFj's 6th function as Se (In the same way, an 8 couldn't be an ENTj - again, Se is the 6th function):

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion
    The individual actively pursues his external goals, but regularly experiences periods of doubt and hesitation where he needs prodding, a strong push, or forceful support from others to continue onward in the direction he has chosen.

    The individual likes to be involved in competitive and challenging endeavors and to see his will and personal power develop as he overcomes obstacles together with other people. However, he depends on others to provide the gusto and motivation for these endeavors.
    .

    Yes, 8s actively pursues their external goals, yes, they like to be involved in competitive and challenging endeavors and to see their will and personal power develop as they overcomes obstacles. But regular periods of doubt and hesitation are not 8 traits, I'm afraid. They are of a 6. Also in an 8's case, support of others is not a prerequisite of overcoming obstacles. It is, however, for the 6. It is also the case for many 3s. In fact, I don't think one could be any other type but a 3 or 6 if one was LIE or EIE.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  34. #34
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Think what you'd like.

    aka-kitsune, when I'm at my best I'm more extroverted than most people are. I do tend to take a less direct way of getting what I want or telling others what to do, but my 7 scores are always higher than my 9 scores, and I generally don't respect people who hide from their problems for fear of confronting people. I'm never afraid to confront anyone... I just prefer to do so in a way that is most likely to incite cooperation.
    btw, that doesn't apply to situations involving people I'm close to, only professional situations
    That may be consistent with 8 actually -- I should add that I'm no longer well acquainted with my 8w9 friend. He was VERY avoidant of confrontation in personal relationships. Just passive-aggressive. Never told me if he had a problem with me, just let the friendship die from attrition on his part.

    But in his work, he was always direct in confronting problems. It was "feeling" issues he had difficulty being direct with. (He is a diehard ENTj)
    Again, read my point above. 8s cannot be ENTjs.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And btw, levels of energy aren't always related to one's type.
    External factors can cause fatigue in any type. Any type can get depressed, sick, etc.
    Actually Joy, you'd be surprised. I've never met or known of an 8w7 who is not boundless in energy (in fact, I've never met anyone who has more energy (that is focused) than I do.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    My comment isn't about me directly.

    Enneagram and Socionics types are primarily about how a person's brain operates, are they not? Their actions are manifestations of their mental activity, but there is more to it than that. A paraplegic Se dominant isn't going to be as active as your typical Se dominant. While that example is extreme, it is obvious that people's types and their circumstances will determine their actions.

    What determines one's enneagram type, anyways? Isn't it their key fears and motivations? And aren't descriptions just TYPICAL manifestations of those fears and motivations?
    Yes, they are. But if you find yourself not being able to relate to a description of a type and yet you still believe you have the associated motivations and fears, the chances are that you're mistaken in your choice of type.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And btw, levels of energy aren't always related to one's type.
    External factors can cause fatigue in any type. Any type can get depressed, sick, etc.
    Actually Joy, you'd be surprised. I've never met or known of an 8w7 who is not boundless in energy (in fact, I've never met anyone who has more energy (that is focused) than I do.
    I'm not going to debate with you about whether or not any type can get any disease, illness, or condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    My comment isn't about me directly.

    Enneagram and Socionics types are primarily about how a person's brain operates, are they not? Their actions are manifestations of their mental activity, but there is more to it than that. A paraplegic Se dominant isn't going to be as active as your typical Se dominant. While that example is extreme, it is obvious that people's types and their circumstances will determine their actions.

    What determines one's enneagram type, anyways? Isn't it their key fears and motivations? And aren't descriptions just TYPICAL manifestations of those fears and motivations?
    Yes, they are. But if you find yourself not being able to relate to a description of a type and yet you still believe you have the associated motivations and fears, the chances are that you're mistaken in your choice of type.
    My point is that descriptions don't have to fit 100% in order for someone to be that type. If the description is good, the person should still fit the general idea being presented. The key is to look at the big picture, which revolves primarily around the key fears of motivations of a type. My other point is that if there's an outside factor that is obviously not type related, such as being paraplegic (as in my example), that should be taken into consideration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra

    Again, read my point above. 8s cannot be ENTjs.
    Why don't you INSIST a little more? Maybe I'll change my mind.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

    **********

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Twain
    Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra

    Again, read my point above. 8s cannot be ENTjs.
    Why don't you INSIST a little more? Maybe I'll change my mind.
    So what types can be 8, Ezra?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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