Rinoa Heartily as ESFj (FFVIII)

[tcaudilllg]

Take note: unless you've played Final Fantasy VIII all the way through, this won't make much sense.

http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/The..._tcaudilllg%29

Not yet finished, but looking for critique.

[UDP]

I was thinking the other day about that actually being true. dominant.

[UDP]

Her shows itself in her role as a sorceress - she transmits power between figures, one time allowing herself to be a spritual conduit for time compressions. This very act, indeed, is demonstrative of the flow between role into point of least resistance: the exchange of energy leads to a sequential progression, in this case a change in time. The specific change in time demonstrates the nature of PoLR: there is no perception of sequence, no flow of time. From this static state emerges the impetus to construct a new reality: the dual-seeking function of gives order to the timelessness chaos and creates the possibility of a new progression of events. Her heart congeals herself as an field static in the now-reanimated field of time-compressed space, allowing her the will to experience reality anew. Rinoa emerges from the darkness of the unconscious to defeat Ultimecia in combat.

That part is just sort of ..... stuff you made up that seems to fit. It is conjecturing, and has no real value. The course of the game has nothing to do with her type. It makes it sound like -- if she were not ESFj, the whole story would have never happened. What is "Si combat" ?

Rinoa Heartily exhibits traits common to ESFjs. She is very outgoing, ethical, enthusiastic, and warm-hearted. Her poor shows itself in her poor planning, which leads to a failed attempt to capture Galbadian President Deling.

...

Like most ESFjs, Rinoa pays close attention to what people around her are experiencing, although it could be argued that what she experiences most are her own feelings. She is adept at shifting people's moods by shifting their experiences of reality; a little enthusiasm goes a long way.

That sounds somewhat decent, almost.

You could probably draw a lot from her badly failed attempt on the train switch. It was executed, but it was not very well thought out -- she ate up the information that the president would be on the train hook line and sinker. So she does seem to be Ti seeking, and I would almost say Se seeking as well. She could easily be an ENFj....

but I doubt an ENFj would be so assertive in terms of getting Squall to come on the dance floor. That may be a key difference - S>N.

One point for ENFj would be that she sucked at making that train for the model, which perhaps shows weak Si. Whenever it was brought up, she seemed to not take criticism of it well. So that begs the question - would an ENFj be able to entice squall into dancing like that? Or would an ESFj just not like being criticized for a poor job done.



We also should consider her encounter with Edea, or at least, what she tried to do. And her relationship with her father. And her relationship with Squall. And her relationship with Seifer.

[ScarlettLux]

I am very curious to know what type Squall is. Anyone?

[Gilly]

I always thought ILI. He seems like Cloud (obviously SLI if you ask me), only more distant. Rinoa Heartily seemed more IEE to me I could see a possible case for LII and ESE, though.

[UDP]

Originally I said ISTj, and then retracted it because I thought an ISTj could not be so open minded. Tcau thinks INTj - ISTj (right?).

Yet others see INTp / ISTp, and FDG even said INFp.
Personally, I do not see an INTp or ISTp "Thriving on structure", as it says in the game's instruction manual... Since I am going to replay the game anyways, might as well get it out now.....



What the Instruction Manual says about Squall:

• Back of the box: "A member of an elite military team, Squall is forced into a conflict beyond imagination. To survive, he must contend with a desperate rival, a powerful sorceress, and his own mysterious dreams.
• Prologue, p6: At the forefront of a rising tide of violence brought on by Galbardia's war declaration is a SeeD cadet named Squall Leonhart. Serious to a fault, Squall has earned himself the reputation of bing a lone wolf. A chance encounter with the free spirited Rinoa Heartilly, however, turns his universe upside down. Having thrived on discipline, Squall finds Rinoa's carefree attitude fascinating. Yet there is no time to ponder these thoughts, for the job of dealing with the sorceress behind Galbadia's irrational hostility has fallen to SeeD and Squall...
  
• Main Characters, p7:
  Squall Leonhart
  The tacturn and reluctant hero
  A cadet in SeeD, the special combat unit of Balamb Garden Military Academy. His aloof and anti-social behavior makes him appear selfish and lacking a sense of team unity. Squall dislikes having others invoved in his affairs, and is best described as a lone wolf.
  
• Seifer Almasy, p8
  Squalls rival who causes havoc within the Garden
  A candidate for SeeD. Although Seifer is a naturally gifted soldier, his inability take orders and control his temper has earned him the label of "problematic". Although recognizing and praising Squall's Abilities, Seifer regards him as his ultimate rival.
  
• Rinoa Heartilly
  A beautiful, spirited young woman
  A lively individual with the ability to touch people's hearts. Open and honest in her feelings, she speaks her mind without reservation. Driven by her ambitions, she can can be difficult at times.

Consider how all of these characters are designed to draw out Squall's character.

[Gilly]

You've convinced me. LII-ESE it is.

What about Cloud though? I could see a possible case for Alpha NT, but something still makes me lean SLI.

[Gilly]

Oh, and I think Se-SLE is the obvious choice for Seifer, is it not? Pe-EP without a doubt.

[UDP]

You've convinced me. LII-ESE it is.

What about Cloud though? I could see a possible case for Alpha NT, but something still makes me lean SLI.

Cloud and Squall are not the same type. I am not sure if Squall is LII or not, but his type and my own are closely related, that is for sure.

Cloud seems SLI more so, or just, more messed up. Squall seems more like an IJ, IMO, more rational.

[UDP]

Oh, and I think Se-SLE is the obvious choice for Seifer, is it not? Pe-EP without a doubt.

Yes. So would it make more sense for them to be LSI - SLE? Or not?

[FDG]

I am very curious to know what type Squall is. Anyone?

Some Beta NF in my opinion.

He's friggin emo.

I completely agree on Seifer.

[Gilly]

You've convinced me. LII-ESE it is.

What about Cloud though? I could see a possible case for Alpha NT, but something still makes me lean SLI.

Cloud and Squall are not the same type. I am not sure if Squall is LII or not, but his type and my own are closely related, that is for sure.

Cloud seems SLI more so, or just, more messed up. Squall seems more like an IJ, IMO, more rational.

Yeah, I think Cloud has to be irrational. His "I don't give a fuck" attitude does remind me of Manny Ramirez, a player on the Boston Red Sox who is a good example of an ILE. But SLIs are famous for this as well, are they not?

I'm not sure about Squall. IJ temperment is clear. However, his "lone wolf" attitude would make me lean Alpha>Beta (Democracy>Aristocracy). But I could see LSI as well. Why Se>Ne?

[ScarlettLux]

I am very curious to know what type Squall is. Anyone?

Some Beta NF in my opinion.

He's friggin emo.

I completely agree on Seifer.

He could very well be your Dual!

But nah, I think Squall is ISTj

[UDP]

Why Se>Ne?

Discipline. Dedication as a student. Easily earned the trust of everyone as most competent for being the group leader, although he did not want it.


Now, things that point towards INTj - He was "reluctant" about accepting the role of leadership. And also, Rinoa's approaching of him --- would an ENFj be able to do that and drag him out on the dance floor? Or is that more ESFj?

Not sure what to make of that.

[Gilly]

I don't think she has to be his dual. And I dont think an LSI would have to be dragged onto the dance floor, really. But I get what you mean with the discipline; it's definitely founded in Ti, but it takes Se to practice it and "stay strong," to avoid "modifying" the system, as an LII might be inclined to do.

[UDP]

I will have to play the game again (later today after I finish more important things), I want to end this. Squall reminds me of myself so much

Squall seems like an MBTI INTJ - agreed? What about his enneagram - 5 ?

[UDP]

I don't think she has to be his dual. And I dont think an LSI would have to be dragged onto the dance floor, really. But I get what you mean with the discipline; it's definitely founded in Ti, but it takes Se to practice it and "stay strong," to avoid "modifying" the system, as an LII might be inclined to do.

And that is the difficulty for me, because I do both - modify and stay strong to it. I had to create it first, but now I am striving to live it.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I would prolly say ENFp (though not for any particular reason) for Rinoa and INTj for Squall - I would say that over ISTj because he tries to avoid unpleasant memories - he trains so as to divert his energies, and yet he doesn't seek leadership (at least to begin with).

[UDP]

Would you say he uses , which evolved into training, to develop into - something that would prevent future unpleasant experiences?

[Not A Communist Shill]

I would say he uses to avoid wherever possible - he is a reluctant 'hero' - he only shows that he cares for people when it is vital to their survival - he doesn't help people who don't need to be helped or can help themselves - I think this is partly why he admires Seifer. He fears helping people because he fears he is weak - it would cost him too much energy to help, and he might become too attached. I think he resents weakness in others because he sees it in himself - to help with other peoples' weaknesses would expose his own weaknesses and leave him vulnerable. I think he avoids people not because he doesn't care, but because he feels he can't save himself (as well as his perceived failure to protect Ellone), let alone everybody else.

[UDP]

That description makes him sound like a loser.

Why does he say "I can't just run away", in regard to Seifer's challenges? Wouldn't it be easier to run away - if he was so concerned with Si > Se ?

[UDP]

he only shows that he cares for people when it is vital to their survival - he doesn't help people who don't need to be helped or can help themselves - I think this is partly why he admires Seifer

I don't get why he you say he admires Seifer.

I think he resents weakness in others because he sees it in himself - to help with other peoples' weaknesses would expose his own weaknesses and leave him vulnerable. I think he avoids people not because he doesn't care, but because he feels he can't save himself (as well as his perceived failure to protect Ellone), let alone everybody else.

Ugh.... that is somewhat revolting way to look at his character.

What about the pride of doing everything on your own, because you have had no one else before? He is not looking for anyone else "I have come this far on my own". He has problems accepting that he needs other people, or enjoys relationships, but I do not think that is because he views himself as helpless. I cannot buy into that at all, or relate to that - when I say I relate to the character of Squall. It was all about being independent and prideful, not because "I cannot save myself, so I am going to cry in the corner, booo - hooo".

"Acetic. He toughens himself training for the cold, starvation, losses, and disapproval from others.", etc.

[Not A Communist Shill]

O.K. - he wants to avoid people in order to be independent and strong.

The gunblade battle at the beginning is there because the game designer-person wanted someone to fill in the back story on how Squall got his scar (which was a necessary feature, apparently ) - the fight itself was part of S + S's training, what with them being the only gunblade specialists at the school. I don't think Squall is one to pick unnecessary fights.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Some quotes of his right at the bottom:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squall_Leonhart

Squall: (I wonder what everyone's doing...?) (They're probably laughing at me. Or maybe they're angry...?) What do you think? To tell you the truth... I worry too much about what others think of me. I hate that side of me... That's why I didn't want anyone to get to know me. I wanted to hide that side of myself. I hate it. Squall is an unfriendly, introverted guy. It made it easy for me when people perceived me that way. That's a secret between you and me. Got that?

Headmaster Cid: Squall, we're under your command from now on. This is your fate. It is your destiny to lead the way in defeating the sorceress. /Squall: Don't talk about this like it's been decided since by birth! (I don't mind fighting the sorceress. It's unavoidable as long as I'm a SeeD member.) (What? AS long as I'm a SeeD member?) (What if I quit?) (Quit... Then what? What do I have left?) (Don't even want to think about it. Just stop thinking...)

Squall: (I liked him... wasn't really a bad guy... He was one of us...) (Seifer... You've just become just a memory.) (Will they... Will they talk about me this way if I die, too?) (Squall was this and that. Using past tense, saying whatever they want?) (So this is what death is all about...) (...Not for me.) (I won't have it!!!)

Rinoa: Don't you ever worry about or even think about the well-being of your comrades!? / Squall: (I don't believe in relying on others.) / Rinoa: Don't you understand!? / Squall:(...Whatever.)

More quotes:
[web:d24760f4b0]http://coco.raceme.org/videogames/finalfantasy8/quotes/squall.php[/web:d24760f4b0]

[UDP]

Perhaps it is worthy to look at the direction Squall went in. He showed a lot of change and growth during the game. Where do you think he would be right now?

[tcaudilllg]

Doesn't this sound like PoLR?

Am I that untrusting...? Maybe I'm this way because I'm scared. Nothing lasts in this world. It feels great to have friends who believe in you, and adults you can rely on. That's why it's so dangerous, especially if you become used to it. Someday you're bound to lose everything. Everybody around you will be gone. Then what are you left with? Nothing. Nobody... It's so miserable. And it's inevitable. It's so hard to recover from something like that. I never ever want to deal with that again. I can't. Even if it means being alone...)

(But the past is the past... it's over, done with.) "Despite what truth we find, it's not going to change the present."

Or do you think that's PoLR?

[UDP]

Good call Tcau.

That does seem more Ne polr to me

[UDP]

Eh,I may not play FF8 as I originally said I would. There are other things to be doing. Perhaps if I really have some spare time, and the weather is bad, and I have to stay inside, etc.... but, it is not a priority item, and will be treated as such.

(in case anyone was waiting on my analysis)

[HitmanISTP]

x

[Gilly]

No man; Cloud is SLI as far as I can tell, but Squall is as Ti-IJ as they come, and I think there's a lot of evidence for Se>Ne values, as well as Democracy.

[UDP]

No man; Cloud is SLI as far as I can tell, but Squall is as Ti-IJ as they come, and I think there's a lot of evidence for Se>Ne values, as well as Democracy.

Did you mean Aristocracy?

[Exodus]

Unfortunately for you INTJs, ESFJs seem to be attracted to masculine big guys (like xSTJs) which INTJs lack physically. I can totally see an INTJ/ESFJ couple working out quite well once they hit their 30s. It's too bad a lot of ESFJ women who don't know Socionics are unaware of this and continue dating ESTJ/ISTJ types. They're generally very attractive and act like perpetual cheerleader types even when they hit their 60s. While they're attractive I cannot see myself dating them (I've had an ESFJ boss for 3 years, and an coworker...very drama queen..perfect for the boring INTJ if the INTJ can keep up with her)

You are absolutely wrong about this. A young ESFj might be more likely to pass over an INTj, but that's all.

Would you say he uses , which evolved into training, to develop into - something that would prevent future unpleasant experiences?

It's arguments like this that should make you go , just as a general rule.

[Gilly]

No man; Cloud is SLI as far as I can tell, but Squall is as Ti-IJ as they come, and I think there's a lot of evidence for Se>Ne values, as well as Democracy.

Did you mean Aristocracy?

I meant Ne>Se values, actually. Hesitance to lead, doesn't want to be seen as part of the group...I can comfortably pin the dedication and discipline on Ti, but no way can I see an LSI being that reluctant to take a position of leadership or power (both, at some point or another, in Squall's case).

[FDG]

Unfortunately for you INTJs, ESFJs seem to be attracted to masculine big guys (like xSTJs) which INTJs lack physically. I can totally see an INTJ/ESFJ couple working out quite well once they hit their 30s. It's too bad a lot of ESFJ women who don't know Socionics are unaware of this and continue dating ESTJ/ISTJ types. They're generally very attractive and act like perpetual cheerleader types even when they hit their 60s. While they're attractive I cannot see myself dating them (I've had an ESFJ boss for 3 years, and an coworker...very drama queen..perfect for the boring INTJ if the INTJ can keep up with her)

You are absolutely wrong about this. A young ESFj might be more likely to pass over an INTj, but that's all.

I agree. Whenever I go to the public library to study, I see many INTj-ESFj (Ne-Si subtypes) couples. Yes, the ESFj is usually hotter than the INTj, but I think this is something the ESFj actually likes - somebody that doesn't really care much about his physical appearance etc etc

I don't see many ESFj-Fe INTj-Ti couples, though. It might also be because I don't get along well with INTjs-Ti

[UDP]

In regard to myself:
Hmm - that may explain things. Generally speaking I do take care of my appearance well, and I most certainly despise looking helpless like most INTj-Ne do. I also have no problems about leadership roles, and am starting to actively seek them out because others suck so badly at them - I am not saying I am "better" or that I think such is easy, but I care, and that seems to be a huge factor.


Also, I could not tolerate being in a relationship with someone who looked as though I was helpless, and needed her help to get by. I could not accept that sort of pity. That seems to be the main motivation for ESFj - INTj Ne, and it does not sit well with me at all.

I do not know many Ti-Fe couples myself.

The only form of "pity" I could really accept from someone is socially, because I am not skilled at relating to people or helping them with emotions - I work to cut emotional distress out, and also, I focus more on the professional aspects of relationships, rather than "personal relationships".

[FDG]

Most of the INTj Ne guys are also friendly and great wits and lots of fun and very strange people. If I were a girl, I'm sure I'd find them hotter than the macho idiots.

[tcaudilllg]

Squall is in no INTJ more likely ISTP, Rinoa could be ESFJ. In fiction movies there are rarely any INTJ heroes or anti-hero lead characters...more like evil villains.

Unfortunately for you INTJs, ESFJs seem to be attracted to masculine big guys (like xSTJs) which INTJs lack physically. I can totally see an INTJ/ESFJ couple working out quite well once they hit their 30s. It's too bad a lot of ESFJ women who don't know Socionics are unaware of this and continue dating ESTJ/ISTJ types. They're generally very attractive and act like perpetual cheerleader types even when they hit their 60s. While they're attractive I cannot see myself dating them (I've had an ESFJ boss for 3 years, and an coworker...very drama queen..perfect for the boring INTJ if the INTJ can keep up with her)

Actually they're more drawn to the ESTps, their benefactors. (this is true for most types) Still, dominants have something akin to a "built-in" socionics in them: they play the relations game very, very well.

I highly suspect that the depth of my interest in socionics is at least somewhat related to my dual-seeking . Certainly socionics grants me all the suggestions I could ever want, and with structure to boot.

You realize that most INTjs are using enneagram for this purpose, right?

[tcaudilllg]

I updated the Rinoa ESFj claim.

[tcaudilllg]

I've finished the Rinoa ESFj claim. Its structure leaves something to be desired but I'm not interested in reorganizing it now. The arguments are clear enough, and it's the information that matters.

Critique at your leisure.

http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/The..._tcaudilllg%29