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Thread: What is Se in YOUR OPINION?

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    Se example:

    My friend bumps into an ESTp guy of poor demeanor at an outdoor drinking venue. Friend turns around and apologizes. ESTp puffs out chest and says, "Don't be sorry, just be more careful." The 'or else' is implied.

    Come on. Se is incredibly obvious.

    In my opinion: It's people who use force to get what they want, or get what is proclaimed by rules, etc.
    asd

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    Agreed.

    Se: quick temper, ability to subdue others, impatience
    Ne: random humor, physical awkwardness, irreverence

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    nonono, Se doesn't necessarily has quick temper or impatience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    nonono, Se doesn't necessarily has quick temper or impatience.
    IME, they are the most common negative manifestations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Agreed.

    Se: quick temper, ability to subdue others, impatience
    Ne: random humor, physical awkwardness, irreverence
    Physical awkwardness, as in clumsiness? running into things? Is that what you mean?
    Clumsiness is part of it, but just movement in general. For example, I often don't know what to do with my hands, or have trouble finding a comfortable posture. Weak Si, mostly.

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    I'm clumsy and have awkward movements as well. "Goofy" even, some have said.

    In this case I agree with Mr. Hotel Ambush. Or "The", as he's graciously allowed me to call him.

    ISFjs are very good at controlling their tempers. But the impatient part I definitely agree with.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Agreed.

    Se: quick temper, ability to subdue others, impatience
    Ne: random humor, physical awkwardness, irreverence
    Physical awkwardness, as in clumsiness? running into things? Is that what you mean?
    Clumsiness is part of it, but just movement in general. For example, I often don't know what to do with my hands, or have trouble finding a comfortable posture. Weak Si, mostly.
    Is that when around others or when alone also? Because might some of that be social awkwardness? When walking by yourself do you notice that?
    It's not social awkwardness really, even though it turns into it when I'm around other people.

    It's weird, but I actually think sometimes about placing one foot in front of the other when I'm walking. It feels strange to me.

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    Here's what I think when I think of Se:
    • Pays attention to the concrete objects in the real world.
    • Focuses on details of the real world around them.
    • Utilizes senses to identify objects (I hear a sound = Se, I hear differences in tone = Si (talking about those differences in tones = Ni/ Ti))
    • In the present moment and current experience (rather than past events, future possibilities, nor musings on things such as the meaning of x)
    • Accepts the real world exactly as it appears to be.

    As for the aggressiveness that people refer to when discussing Se, I think there are a few things involved that gets missed. If person A has Se base, s/he focuses on the concrete objects in the real world, then any person who bumps into A is going to be seen as an object and thus treated like an object....initially at least. Since A is in the present moment and not concerned at the moment with the past nor the future, then they'll express the emotion/thought/whatever that is being felt at the moment. And again, since they are concerned with the present and not the past/future, then they'll not be worrying over something they did in the past...so less chance of a sorry later...nor will they be too concerned over what the future may hold in store...so less chance of a sorry/explanation later. If however, they've determined that something is important to them, that something will influence how they react to an "object" associated with that something.

    This goes hand in hand with when a person steps out of their comfort zone to utilize Se. At some point, something within has snapped, and the person (or whatever) is temporarily at least, viewed as an object, whether it be an object that can aide..or an object that can hinder. And your response to this object will be influenced by whether it's considered an aide or a hindrance. Observations show that it's far easer for people to be aggressive towards "things" than towards "people".


    Here's some of the things I think about when I think of Ne:
    • Pays attention to the abstract properties of objects (it's not a "car", but it brings to mind concepts such as movement, responsibilities, expenses, and freedom…I may call it a "car" during conversation, but my mind is including these and other concepts into the word).
    • Misses out on the details of the real world.
    • Neither in the present, nor particularly the future, but more along the lines of "alternate reality". (I can't think of the proper term here.)
    • Connects concepts together, though may not be able to say how they are connected, only that somehow, the mind has connected them.
    • De Bono has a book out called "De Bono's Thinking Course" which seems to be a course in developing Ne. The most obvious exercise for developing Ne is the PMI exercise in which you think of the pluses of a situation, the minuses of a situation, and what is or would be interesting about the situation. For Ne (accepting at least), these pop into the head virtually simultaneously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana

    Okay - now add Fi in there. You know what Fi is right - add it to Se, what do you get? In some or even many cases the two forces are working against each other. Just think about it for a second, can you see what I mean? Compare then, Se with Ti, valuing Fe - to Se with Fi, valuing Te. . . quite different right? If you don't see the difference, compare an ESFj to an ISTp. Both are Si.

    10 points to heath for answering first.

    Now imagine that friend bumping into an ESFp instead. Same Ep temperament, both Se leading - the difference is in the Fi or Ti.
    Se plus Fi = People using force to enforce their personal relations, or moral sentiments. Example: ISFj woman I know threatening a woman with calls to the department of family services when she was playing rough with her nephew. It was kind of a brash and impatient judgement of character on her part based of her overarching moral understanding of the situation(which is weak, she personally thinks violence towards children is wrong in any context when it is customary among the people who were committing the act) combined with her use of force and quick action in situations. this ISFj was a hawk when it came to what people said about other people. If she didn't like someone she would actively seek ways to revenge herself, usually masking her revenge in rules and plays to authority. This makes her a great ally, and she didn't seek revenge upon people unless they had committed an act that was unacceptable. Her terms of unacceptable were broad.

    example 2: The isfj i spoke about earlier found ways to revenge using rules. In example, at work, she would find people with med errors, and if the person was someone she liked she would go to that person herself and talk to them and try to work out the problem. If it was someone she didn't like she would report the person to authority for the other's punishment. It was not fair. Of course, it's not hard to get on her team-- be a good person, be reliable, etc. But people with low social standards found her very difficult.

    The ESFp might be cool with someone bumping into them. They may start conversation with that person. I don't know many ESFps. I knew one and she reacted very angrily to anyone getting upset for stupid/impatient reasons. People being pushy or getting upset made her internally furious. I think that's more a gamma thing. Gamma types don't mind confrontation, but they don't like bold assertions or the fire that comes with conflict. They like to solve problems quickly with economic compromise. Whereas Betas will scream, assert their own confidence, etc. Gammas will calmly suppose a rational solution in conflict. It's not necessarily about winning for personal gain with gammas. gammas tend to think, "how can we take this situation and neither of us get fucked at all?" and as for alpha/delta-- people of these quadras in power are ignorant of power struggles, and don't really enjoy playing along.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Agreed.

    Se: quick temper, ability to subdue others, impatience
    Ne: random humor, physical awkwardness, irreverence
    Physical awkwardness, as in clumsiness? running into things? Is that what you mean?
    Clumsiness is part of it, but just movement in general. For example, I often don't know what to do with my hands, or have trouble finding a comfortable posture. Weak Si, mostly.
    Yeah. At least many Alpha NTs seem to have this "condition". As in their hands and legs and fingers and head and eyes and every part of their body seems to live a life of their own. It is like when they grab a coffee cup from the table their hand doesn't follow the straight path but approaches the cup like a restless snake. Their movements are often not very controlled even when they are determined.

    How about..
    Se: A sense of awareness, calmness and certain kind of inborn confidence in your ability to manage your immediate surroundings. They rarely freak out about anything they can see or smell or touch. They take immediate things as they come and are confident they can handle them. They may freak out about something they can't see or touch. About something abstract which they have no control over and which they can't "sense". Something that seemingly lives somewhere in the "abstract world" but still can directly or indirectly affect them in the real world. Now that is scary.

    Ne: A sense of "being above" the discussion at hand. Make an impression that they see "more" than the others around them. Whenever you think you understand it all and have everything under control they say something which makes you feel like you have actually just grasped some surface understanding of the issue. However Ne types tend to easily freak out about simple practical things. Where a Se-type sees just an object that needs to be moved from place A to B and manipulated a bit a Ne type can see some mysterious obstacle which stands in their way like a huge mountain.

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    I think you're mixing Se with Si and Ne with Ni. Se types are hardly "calm" in general.

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    not from me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    So, when someone here says "I don't see Se, I see Ne" what they're really saying is "you seem physically awkward, unaware of your environment, and/or unwilling or unable to use force"

    Would that be a fair assessment?
    Of course not, those are just the negative aspects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I think you're mixing Se with Si and Ne with Ni. Se types are hardly "calm" in general.
    I think my description doesn't differentiate well. It is a different kind of "calmness" I see in Se-types. And Si-types can't be said all to be calm anyways. ISTps are calm in a very detached way but e.g. ESFjs aren't really. Se-types usually have an aura of "confidence" which I refer to. I agree that the word calm in the usual meaning is most often used with ISTps e.g. with:

    and rarely e.g. with ESFps. Perhaps my description above is more about S vs N in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    So, when someone here says "I don't see Se, I see Ne" what they're really saying is "you seem physically awkward, unaware of your environment, and/or unwilling or unable to use force"

    Would that be a fair assessment?
    If an ENFj or INFp says that then probably yes That kind of statement is about having Se>Ne as a Quadra value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    So, when someone here says "I don't see Se, I see Ne" what they're really saying is "you seem physically awkward, unaware of your environment, and/or unwilling or unable to use force"

    Would that be a fair assessment?
    I think what Gilly said is that you entertain multiple possibilities, or something like that. So I imagine that's what he meant by it.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    So, when someone here says "I don't see Se, I see Ne" what they're really saying is "you seem physically awkward, unaware of your environment, and/or unwilling or unable to use force"

    Would that be a fair assessment?
    I think what Gilly said is that you entertain multiple possibilities, or something like that. So I imagine that's what he meant by it.
    I'm purposely being a pain to get to the bottom of exactly what was meant, so that it doesn't keep cropping up after this, over and over again.
    LOL ok sorry.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Default Re: What is Se in YOUR OPINION?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I know it's been gone over and no need to beat a dead horse -- but quick question - could y'all humor me and briefly describe how you recognize Se in someone? Your own personal criteria, no information elements or quotes needed.

    Ready. Set. Go!


    As a bonus question, do the same for Ne. 10 points to whoever finishes first.
    Okay, I'll be blunt (otherwise known as pissing people off). Ne and Se are two of the information elements that I spot just from the general feel of a person much of the time.

    Ne just looks weak.

    Se is harder to describe. It seems... capable?
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    Default Re: What is Se in YOUR OPINION?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I know it's been gone over and no need to beat a dead horse -- but quick question - could y'all humor me and briefly describe how you recognize Se in someone? Your own personal criteria, no information elements or quotes needed.

    Ready. Set. Go!


    As a bonus question, do the same for Ne. 10 points to whoever finishes first.
    Okay, I'll be blunt (otherwise known as pissing people off). Ne and Se are two of the information elements that I spot just from the general feel of a person much of the time.

    Ne just looks weak.

    Se is harder to describe. It seems... capable?
    Not the way they spontaneously appear to me, but Joy has a point.

    is more flighty and less driven. Leading is More so with the added aspect of hyperactiveness. Creative is calm but still in a flighty way. More preachy than criticizing.

    seems more focused and unperturbed. Leading isn't hyper as hyper and twitchy as but there is an urge to act. Creative seem like a rock, and criticize more than preach.

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    Those weren't objective descriptions by any means... I was just describing how they appear to me.
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    If Ni is about seeing what matters to be succesful, Se is about simply going ahead and doing it with the greatest possible amount of effort.

    Se without Ni occasionally does things for the sake of doing them... The most succesful action known to the person, even if all of the known actions suck.

    Ne is about trying new things even when there is no guarantee that it will bring success; Si about perfecting/finetuning methods, but also about integrating stuff into ones personality, home, private space, etc.

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    Oh no, was it suppose to be objective...?

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    I see a lot of mixing up of functions and behavior of types with those functions.

    Both Se and Si are primarily about physical reality. Only Se is about perceiving its external aspects and a drive to change them in your favor; that is what leads to Se as the function of "volitional pressure" and "confrontation" as a consequence.

    Si is about how physical reality affects your sensations and thus well-being (since most people don't want to feel bad). So it's both about your own sense of comfort in your own body, and about how external reality affects you internally (as in whether you find a painting pretty or not).

    Types who have Se or Si in their ego functions will also be focused on the other one - so the sensing types generally.
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    Se = Objective Sensing

    The "sensing world" that everyone can "agree" upon. Not up for personal interpretation. "That rock is 45kg and 1m by 2m" kind of thing, only without the exact words. Going further, you can see how it can manifest if taken to extremes.

    "Look what I have! This is mine."
    "See how much bigger I am then you?"
    "I am here, and I am not moving."
    "I am putting myself directly in front of you."

    The pathways through which this information travels is Extroverted Sensing. The interpretation of these things is up for grabs, I would say T, F, or N? Someone gets in your face: Se information, interpreted by F. Noticing how "powerful" somebody is physically: Se interpreted by T. Social power: Se, N, and F. Getting more "stuff": Se with T.

    Si = Subjective Sensing

    Your own personal "feelings" of sensation. This comes from your body and your 5 senses. Totally up to you to decide if you like or not.

    Intuitives can forget one or the other of the S functions it seems. For instance, maybe an ENxj is making a big plan, or doing something they fell is tremendously important, and some ISxp comes along and destroys the whole operation by saying "Yeah, but when you work 15 hours a day, you won't be able to sustain physically!" (And the ENxj gets defensive and argues, does the plan anyway, and indeed cannot sustain due to Si.)

    Ne = Objective Intuition

    The "intuitive" world that is "out there" for everyone to see on their own. Intuition is a strange concept, because it is "interprative" by nature, and somewhat "connected" already, so no matter what, it is going to seem somewhat personal, and some what "J-functioney" when we talk about it, even though in reality, it is neither of these things, but just the ability to kind of "parallel process" vast amounts of raw information into a certain form which may have meaning, or no meaning.

    The output of this function, because of the "extroversion" isn't something that can be interpreted differently from person to person (like Ni would for instance.) The output is kind of "proven", but in an intuitive fashion that is correct from one point of view, but incorrect in another. Since intuition deals with a bit of everything all together, it is easy to see that things can be connected in an immeasurable amount of ways.

    This is kind of a difficult concept to explain exactly, but I think it helps to talk about Ni also.

    Ni = Subjective Intuition

    Much easier to explain. Your own personal hunches and gut feelings that you really have no exact objective reasoning for. (That is, you cannot point to something and say "THAT is why I feel this way." you can only have a vague sense based off of your personal interpretation of things.) This kind of stuff can have to do with "what things mean to you" in that nothing is really defined by the group, but only by each individual person as they percieve things. (Think about Si, how each person has their own tastes. It is the same with Ni, each person has their own "Intuition" to interpret things on the "multidimensional synthetic" plane.)
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Se = Objective Sensing

    The "sensing world" that everyone can "agree" upon. Not up for personal interpretation. "That rock is 45kg and 1m by 2m" kind of thing, only without the exact words. Going further, you can see how it can manifest if taken to extremes.

    "Look what I have! This is mine."
    "See how much bigger I am then you?"
    "I am here, and I am not moving."
    "I am putting myself directly in front of you."

    The pathways through which this information travels is Extroverted Sensing. The interpretation of these things is up for grabs, I would say T, F, or N? Someone gets in your face: Se information, interpreted by F. Noticing how "powerful" somebody is physically: Se interpreted by T. Social power: Se, N, and F. Getting more "stuff": Se with T.

    Si = Subjective Sensing

    Your own personal "feelings" of sensation. This comes from your body and your 5 senses. Totally up to you to decide if you like or not.

    Intuitives can forget one or the other of the S functions it seems. For instance, maybe an ENxj is making a big plan, or doing something they fell is tremendously important, and some ISxp comes along and destroys the whole operation by saying "Yeah, but when you work 15 hours a day, you won't be able to sustain physically!" (And the ENxj gets defensive and argues, does the plan anyway, and indeed cannot sustain due to Si.)

    Ne = Objective Intuition

    The "intuitive" world that is "out there" for everyone to see on their own. Intuition is a strange concept, because it is "interprative" by nature, and somewhat "connected" already, so no matter what, it is going to seem somewhat personal, and some what "J-functioney" when we talk about it, even though in reality, it is neither of these things, but just the ability to kind of "parallel process" vast amounts of raw information into a certain form which may have meaning, or no meaning.

    The output of this function, because of the "extroversion" isn't something that can be interpreted differently from person to person (like Ni would for instance.) The output is kind of "proven", but in an intuitive fashion that is correct from one point of view, but incorrect in another. Since intuition deals with a bit of everything all together, it is easy to see that things can be connected in an immeasurable amount of ways.

    This is kind of a difficult concept to explain exactly, but I think it helps to talk about Ni also.

    Ni = Subjective Intuition

    Much easier to explain. Your own personal hunches and gut feelings that you really have no exact objective reasoning for. (That is, you cannot point to something and say "THAT is why I feel this way." you can only have a vague sense based off of your personal interpretation of things.) This kind of stuff can have to do with "what things mean to you" in that nothing is really defined by the group, but only by each individual person as they percieve things. (Think about Si, how each person has their own tastes. It is the same with Ni, each person has their own "Intuition" to interpret things on the "multidimensional synthetic" plane.)
    i like these quite a bit!
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