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Thread: Duality and PoLR

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    Default Duality and PoLR

    How duals relieve their partners' issues with their PoLR?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Default Re: duality and PoLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    How duals relieve their partners' issues with their PoLR?
    this is a great question, actually. after a relationship progresses to a certain point, you become more aware of the person's polr.

    that function would be in your superid block, largely out of consciousness....so i would think one would do nothing...one would not focus on it....one would use one's strengths to protect and defend. like it's not even on the agenda or something.

    by way of contrast, i could talk about my current relationship which is not dual:

    in my relation right now which is illusionary, we have one another's polr in our superid block. but it's like we see it when one another's polr has been activated. sometimes we activate it inadvertently; kind of like stepping on one another's toes. but i think we are aware of it and kind of realize it and step back. but maybe the dual seeking function is not fulfilled all that well, so bouncing back from polr hits takes a little longer and the person needs time alone to recover.

    with duals i think things must be more of a flow. you would respond with your strong function to the person's dual seeking function thus quelling their anxieties more quickly, efficiently, and completely.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    From a purely theoretical viewpoint, both Super Ego blocks of both persons won't do them both any good.

    They don't need them, they don't want them, they'll avoid them.

    Their Super Ego blocks interfere with their Ego blocks,

    Therefor, and as I've read somewhere, duals aren't omnipotent, because they both try to avoid their SuperEgo block.

    How this will manifest itself in real life, i'm not aware of.

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    Default Re: duality and PoLR

    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    in my relation right now which is illusionary, we have one another's polr in our superid block. but it's like we see it when one another's polr has been activated. sometimes we activate it inadvertently; kind of like stepping on one another's toes. but i think we are aware of it and kind of realize it and step back. but maybe the dual seeking function is not fulfilled all that well, so bouncing back from polr hits takes a little longer and the person needs time alone to recover.
    That's a perfect summary of Illusion, imo & ime.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    There are aspects of life which simply cannot be avoided though. We all have to use all of our functions, and some things simply cannot be dealt with by having your hidden agenda fulfilled. No amount of Se, for example, will make up for the fact that one gets sick and has to take care of themselves properly in order to recover.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    There are aspects of life which simply cannot be avoided though. We all have to use all of our functions, and some things simply cannot be dealt with by having your hidden agenda fulfilled. No amount of Se, for example, will make up for the fact that one gets sick and has to take care of themselves properly in order to recover.
    did you mean Si?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Default Re: duality and PoLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    in my relation right now which is illusionary, we have one another's polr in our superid block. but it's like we see it when one another's polr has been activated. sometimes we activate it inadvertently; kind of like stepping on one another's toes. but i think we are aware of it and kind of realize it and step back. but maybe the dual seeking function is not fulfilled all that well, so bouncing back from polr hits takes a little longer and the person needs time alone to recover.
    That's a perfect summary of Illusion, imo & ime.
    thank you!

    this relationship is 7 months old...and if there is anything that is holding me back it's the idea of whether this relationship can withstand the stresses of everyday life. right now it's fine, but we don't live together, we aren't caring for children together, and we are not trying to realize money/career goals.

    but we are in love and able to be effective enough for the moment. but for how long? and how much time would be wasted if we cannot help each enough in stressful situations and learn this after several years?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I really think you just hand off those responsibilities to your partner. Like if my husband has some kind of event to go to, he *always* wants to bring me, even if most people aren't bringing spouses. He doesn't like to have to be part of group events and if it's something he can't get out of, he wants me there. Otherwise, he tells me about how painful it was afterward and I empathize with him. Around my ENFj dad, I kind of rescue my husband out of conversations - like by answering for him and changing the subject or getting the subject away from him if he gets uncomfortable.

    I'm trying to think of a Ti situation to give an example of how he rescues me but I can't think of anything off the top of my head. But I think it's roughly the same. If it's something that can wait, I wait and pass it off to him. If he's there, he handles it. If I have to deal with it myself, I bitch about it to him later and he listens to me bitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    There are aspects of life which simply cannot be avoided though. We all have to use all of our functions, and some things simply cannot be dealt with by having your hidden agenda fulfilled. No amount of Se, for example, will make up for the fact that one gets sick and has to take care of themselves properly in order to recover.
    did you mean Si?
    yeah, just as an example


    Quote Originally Posted by Quirk Satellite Div.
    When it comes to Socionics, I was initially under the impression that people don't really value self-development of their PoLR in the first place. But after examining more evidence, I see that people sometimes see it as an weak point that needs to somehow be dealt with, and not always by improving their hidden-agenda. Socionics asserts that no matter how much one improves their PoLR, in general one doesn't change type, it just always acts as an area where one consciously feels they are weak and painful with, and will always have trouble just trying to get a hold of it. Unless you are an extreme 1st function subtype, attempts to improve one's PoLR seem rather fatal and useless considering how much a PoLR opposes you.
    Last night Peter told me (of course, this is all paraphrased) that I need to stop feeling like I have to improve myself in areas related to my PoLR. I told him that I don't see how I can fix the issues that I'm having that are preventing me from being able to use my second, and far more so, my first, functions the way I used to. He said the first function will fix itself if I just start focusing and it and ignore the issues related to my PoLR. He said that the reason I'm having those issues is because I'm worrying about it, and that I'll always feel mentally exhausted if I'm trying to make my PoLR strong. The only way to fix it is to start ignoring it... which of course, totally goes against all the advice I keep getting from my supervisor and my super ego partner who seem to know what they're talking about.

    I've had very serious problems in the past that resulted from ignoring my PoLR. He said that stuff like that isn't going to happen now that he's around. On some level I know he's right... but I still feel like I can't stop struggling to improve myself in this area or things aren't going to get better. I guess I just don't see how it's possible to simply ignore this aspect of myself when I'm having serious problems related to it.

    This mental exhaustion is a HUGE problem, and Peter suggested that the very problems I think are a cause for me to try harder in areas related to my PoLR are themselves a result of this mental exhaustion which is the result of trying too hard in areas related to my PoLR. That sounds like a horrible downward spiral... and he may very well be correct about it. But I don't know how to go back to just ignoring my PoLR.
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    Peter is right.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Actually, my advice was to not worry about your PoLR, and instead focus on your strengths. I think your weaknesses will tend to take care of themselves, or at least be much more manageable, when your primary focus is on progressing in your stronger areas.

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    yeah but i've been where joy is, too. when you truly get your mind around your polr limitations it's like wham! and you see it unfold all the time. but you can't do anything about it hardly. the best you can do is to minimize it and develop some "rules of thumb" like rick says.

    but if you are in a situation where the polr function is a valued strength, you're up shits creek. you can try to change the situation or leave the situation but often this takes time and in the meantime you're pretty uncomfortable.

    my only advice is to change the situation that's provoking the polr and try to find one that invests in your strengths.

    remember: everybody has a polr, too. nobody is perfect, there are only situations that play to your strengths or play to your weaknesses.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    yeah but i've been where joy is, too. when you truly get your mind around your polr limitations it's like wham! and you see it unfold all the time. but you can't do anything about it hardly. the best you can do is to minimize it and develop some "rules of thumb" like rick says.

    but if you are in a situation where the polr function is a valued strength, you're up shits creek. you can try to change the situation or leave the situation but often this takes time and in the meantime you're pretty uncomfortable.

    my only advice is to change the situation that's provoking the polr and try to find one that invests in your strengths.

    remember: everybody has a polr, too. nobody is perfect, there are only situations that play to your strengths or play to your weaknesses.
    I totally agree.

    Someone with a Si PoLR doesn't have much of a choice though when it comes from recovering from injuries or illness or surgeries or whatever. It will take as long as it takes, and the only way to improve more quickly is to listen to the advice of doctors and physical therapists and chiropractors and whatnot (who all tell you to focus on Si stuff).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I don't like planning and choosing and ugh, but who does?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I don't know if this has anything to do with polrs or anything like that - but my mom knew exactly what I was talking about. Where I would really like some kind of help/support, I don't know what, is decisions. Not that I want someone to make decisions for me - no way! What I mean is, that I'll have ideas for stuff to do, places to go, things that would be fun or exciting, or whatever, but deciding whether something is a good idea or not is entirely on me. On my own with only me to worry about, I can afford to make all kinds of stupid decisions, but I can't afford it with kids. But I'm not good at figuring out whether something might not be a smart thing to do and I typically think that everything will turn out fine, but experience has shown me that even if things do turn out in the end, there can be a lot of crap to deal with in the meantime- so I end up not doing anything at all because I figure I'll mess up and somehow put my kids in a dangerous situation, or I do rather stupid things that do just that. I mean it'd be great to have someone to bounce ideas off of and to help me decide what is reasonable and doable and be able to do some fun stuff and know what could be done with some modifications to the plan, and what shouldn't be done at all. Now, I'm not retarded, and I do have some common sense - but ahh, I don't want to be completely and utterly boring and never do anything, nor do I want to really screw up by doing something stupid. Anyway, so deciding what, when, how to do everything is always completely on me, which in one way I like, but in another it takes a lot of energy and considering and it can be very tiring.
    The part in bold sounds like it could be related to your PoLR. The rest is more related to Ni.

    I don't like planning and choosing and ugh, but who does?
    ENTjs (as long as you're not talking about what they see as menial stuff). ENTjs excel at making big decisions, particular where large purchases, business, or investing is concerned. And they pretty much can't stop themselves from making long term plans. It's part of the essence of what they are. Their problem is keeping up with the day to day stuff that's necessary in order to accomplish what they're planning. That stuff wears them down pretty quickly, and if (read: when) they neglect those day to day things and no one else is handling them, shit piles up and when the ENTj is finally forced to deal with it, it can seem an overwhelming task. They also tend to go too long without rest and push themselves too hard while they're working towards their goals and plans, then run out of steam and crash. When they do finally have to take time out to recharge, they may be resting, but they're not relaxing. Their mind is restless and they resent being unable to continue full speed towards their goals. Being with someone who has more even levels of energy and who doesn't mind staying on top of those day to day things makes their lives infinitely easier and far less stressful, and it maximizes their ability and efficiency in accomplishing large, long term goals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I don't like planning and choosing and ugh, but who does?
    my sentiments exactly

    As I was attempting to describe in my last post, planning and decision making are the easy (not to mention enjoyable) part.
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    I think ENTjs, ESTjs, ISTps, and INTps all like to make decisions and choose. At least to some extent. I hate to do that too. I can whittle a list down to a few choices but I'm helpless to decide between the last few. I have a hard time with comparative evaluations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I think ENTjs, ESTjs, ISTps, and INTps all like to make decisions and choose. At least to some extent. I hate to do that too. I can whittle a list down to a few choices but I'm helpless to decide between the last few. I have a hard time with comparative evaluations.
    I think different types are good at different kinds of choices.
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    I guess what I'm saying is that when it comes to my PoLR, I feel like no matter how much effort I put into it, it will never be enough. It would be a full time job, and a stressful one at that... and theoretically, if I'm unable to relax, I'm not really using it properly anyways.

    I know that "not worrying about it" is what I need to do, but I can't not worry about it unless I ignore it. The PoLR, by definition, is something that we don't know how to regulate properly (such as knowing how to determine which information is important, which isn't, and what to do about it).
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    The part about taking energy and being tiring...that sounds more like Id functions. Si is what I relate most to in this sense. PoLR causes anxiety, stress, and frustration; it gives you that feeling that makes you want to throw things and break shit. Dual-Seeking is just a pain in the ass that takes a lot of energy and you'd rather let someone else take care of.

    I'd put it like this:

    Dual-Seeking - "Uugh...this again?"
    PoLR - "WHAT THE FUCK OQJIFhrg[irewjgohWRHTKWGTEWJWH I'M GOING TO KILL SOMEONE"
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I think it depends on which information element it is.
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    For the record, LSEs like planning and choosing just as much, Joy The fact that something is happening in the future does not mean you need Ni to deal with it; that's total crockery. Anyone can sit down and THINK about what will happen; Ni types are just better at gauging immediate consequences of things going on around them.

    This is definitely a Te thing: getting all the details worked out, making sure all the odds and ends are tied up, thinking stuff like "What do we need to pack?"...this is all stuff that Te dominants do well.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think it depends on which information element it is.
    Nope.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Think about it this way. Theoretically, your unconscious functions are less accessible, so naturally, they take more energy to use. Your conscious functions are easily accessible, no matter the strength; the problem comes in actually knowing what to do with them.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I don't like planning and choosing and ugh, but who does?
    I do....maybe not choosing but I like coordinating so long as I have full control, if not I get frustrated and yell at people >_>








    Patrick's polr sticks out like a sore thumb to me Makes it easier to soothe. Only bad part is, he doesn't know mine or how to conciously soothe it. *shrug* (Not duals I don't think btw)
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    I can take decisions for everybody, everyday, everywhere! In fact, I would really enjoy starting up a business where people come and ask me to decide every-day things for them!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I think ENTjs, ESTjs, ISTps, and INTps all like to make decisions and choose. At least to some extent. I hate to do that too. I can whittle a list down to a few choices but I'm helpless to decide between the last few. I have a hard time with comparative evaluations.
    Ah, so a Te-seeking thing!
    INFjs enjoy letting other people decide things, that is clear.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Too much Ne, not enough Te.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying, UDP. I don't enjoy letting other people decide things -- I just get tired of having full responsibility for every single decision with no input from anywhere else at all. I would much like having someone to bounce ideas off of and to help with choosing which would be the best way to go on something, not someone who would decide for me - yuck. Don't decide for me - I don't want that - just argh, I'm not explaining very well apparently. Helping someone with something doesn't mean you do it for them. It's like if I could lay out my choices and what my plans were, and get some kind of input as to whether one idea was better than the other, and why they thought so -- it doesn't mean I'd even go along with what they thought was better, but I'd have that input and help, and it wouldn't just be me trying to weigh the choices against each other.
    An ENTj (at least a healthy one) will not try to make decisions for you. They'll explain the options and what they think should be done and the two of you will make a decision together.
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    -_-;

    No type needs decisions made for them about anything, necessarily, and no type in particular is going to just make decisions for its dual. You're being incredibly subjective, Joy, in addition to demonstrating your lack of knowledge rather openly.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Oh?

    How do ENTj/ISFj couples make decisions? Enlighten us.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Oh?

    How do ENTj/ISFj couples make decisions? Enlighten us.
    God you're dumb.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    So I'm wrong and healthy ENTjs do try to make decisions for ISFjs?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Sigh. Could someone just answer how that's "too much Ne"? Thanks.
    You're seeing too many possibilities, and you can't get in touch with reality enough to decide which one is the best one given your circumstances.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  35. #35
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    I think you have an unhealthy tendency to use the words "healthy" and "unhealthy" Joy.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    You ruined my game.

    Implying that such specific and varying behaviors as methods used in making joint decisions have anything to do with Socionics is just plain foolish.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  37. #37
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Sigh. Could someone just answer how that's "too much Ne"? Thanks.
    You're seeing too many possibilities, and you can't get in touch with reality enough to decide which one is the best one given your circumstances.
    Wrong. That's not it at all. It's not about possibilities -- it's about ugh, just read my example.
    I read each of the instances in which you describe your behavior multiple times. That's exactly what it is: you know perfectly well what you'd like to do, and you can see different possible ways of going about it, but you're not in-touch with reality enough to know which is really the right decision to make. Classic NF dilemma.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Sigh. Could someone just answer how that's "too much Ne"? Thanks.
    You're seeing too many possibilities, and you can't get in touch with reality enough to decide which one is the best one given your circumstances.
    Wrong. That's not it at all. It's not about possibilities -- it's about ugh, just read my example.
    In your example it sounds like you just didn't have enough information when you made your original decision. It doesn't really sound like an example of posts you've made earlier in the thread, except the part about now needing to figure out what the best thing to do instead might be. If you're having trouble stopping considering your options, then you're stuck in Ne mode. You need Ni to offer input on what would be a good idea and what would be a bad idea (using Te information).
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    How do you know she needs Ni? Where does she imply that?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Sigh. Could someone just answer how that's "too much Ne"? Thanks.
    You're seeing too many possibilities, and you can't get in touch with reality enough to decide which one is the best one given your circumstances.
    Wrong. That's not it at all. It's not about possibilities -- it's about ugh, just read my example.
    I read each of the instances in which you describe your behavior multiple times. That's exactly what it is: you know perfectly well what you'd like to do, and you can see different possible ways of going about it, but you're not in-touch with reality enough to know which is really the right decision to make. Classic NF dilemma.
    That's not what it sounded like to me... at all. She doesn't know what she wants because she doesn't have the information she needs and doesn't know what would be a good idea and what would be a bad idea.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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