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Thread: Differences between EIE-ENFj and LIE-ENTj

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    Default Differences between EIE-ENFj and LIE-ENTj

    I think an ENTj I like might be an ENFj after all.

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    that sucks... maybe you can hit him on the head with a shovel and fix that condition

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    You just have to take that little piece of - over the F and place it on the upper left part of the letter and he'd be back to ENTj
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    The best way is to watch them as they make a point, especially if something they care about and have to concentrate, as during a heated discusssion. Both will have increasingly agitated body movements, but the ENTj's emotional range will remain rather narrow. The ENFj will have a much broader emotional range, and its display will vary according to whether or not he thinks that it's having the desired effect on the audience.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I say you should start counting how often they criticize thing. I feel like all I do is Bitch and Moan, but ENTjs are supposed to be very positive people who are not so likely to suddenly use random world topics to discharge negativity which burns inside. If that person has a habit of bitching about world topics, he's probably ENFj.

    Overall, me and Expat were very different people, but we had similarities as well. We both had rather intense opinions. Our monologues sounded like rants very often. At least that's how I'd describe the EJ way of talking. I was much more shy than Peter, or at least much more calm and quiet among people. Even when we were just hanging out relaxing alone in the same room, I was just sitting reading (playing with my sleeve in a PoLR kind of "can't relax" way) and he was fussing about, checking his emails, searching for things from his bag, etc. This is probably just individual difference - he seemed more to the EJ side, I was almost leaning towards the IP side.

    When we had to be somewhere on time, I left it to him. I didn't worry about it much, because he was doing all the planning and calculating, "so if we take this train, we'll have 20 min time for walking...". If I had had the responsibility, it probably would have taken more time for planning, but otherwise it would have been very similar. Mhh... He was unsure about the destination of a train and he turned to the ticket salesman with a serious and bland expression, "Excuse me, where does...." and he asked the question, heard the answer and with the identical expression continued, "but as I was saying, the difference between those reinin dichotomies...". This would be very different for me. My set of facial expressions changes immediately when I start talking to someone else. Especially if the topic also changes. It stays the same if I talk to another person in the same group, but I was definitely not in the same conversation group as this salesperson he had never met before. That's all I can think of.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    I understand he was taking care of your hidden agenda, Kristiina
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I understand he was taking care of your hidden agenda, Kristiina
    that's why god created men
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    What a great description from Kristiina
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    What a great description from Kristiina
    Yeah.

    When I first met him, I previously thought that he appeared rather EXTj-ish-conventional, short hair, serious and stoic, always dressed casually in sports jersey and pants, knowledgeable and good at everything he does, but he was initially someone I didn't bother paying much attention to. However, as he shared more about himself and the rationale behind his actions, I begin to have a better understanding about him. He revealed himself as someone who is always trying to impress people (including been jealous of other people's achievements) and putting up a confident and brave front to the extent that he is now unsure of his own personality and character. It also resulted in him having the lack of close friends and proper and meaningful relationships, rendering him to feel loneliness despite been a sociable person. Moreover, he mentioned about struggling to be humble instead of been proud of his overwhelming achievements.

    One of the turning points in his life would probably be spending two and a half years in army (which is a compulsory national service here) and he complained about the meaningless and purposeless group cheers, songs and activities, the bad food, smelly uniforms, uncomfortable living conditions which made him realize how much he missed his family, friends and comforts of his home. In order to overcome his weaknesses, he focused on religion and obeying and serving God, fulfilling his duties and responsibilities by taking care of his family and friends. He trusted only a particular version ('cos he perceived it to be the most original version) of the Bible and always refer to it to seek advice on overcoming his problems. He even gave up an opportunity to study overseas despite the exciting prospects so as to continue serving the people in his life.

    His concerns and approach to overcoming them seem to remind me of what an ENFj would experience. Not sure if the other ENFjs would identify with it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I say you should start counting how often they criticize thing. I feel like all I do is Bitch and Moan, but ENTjs are supposed to be very positive people who are not so likely to suddenly use random world topics to discharge negativity which burns inside. If that person has a habit of bitching about world topics, he's probably ENFj.
    I think both ENTjs and ENFjs are pretty critical. At least, in my experience. I think you all could stand to relax a bit. My dad (ENFj) is more straightforward with his criticism but my mom (ENTj) will be very subtle with it. It's still there though.

    ENFjs are generally emotionally broader when they get worked up, although ENTjs can be pretty dramatic when they feel passionately about something or when they feel on display. But they're not all Fe-ish, like trying to lift your mood and get you worked up like an ENFj.

    I agree about how ENFjs change their facial expression when they talk to different people.

    ENTjs are planners and ENFjs are not.

    Both like to argue but ENFjs have more emotionally driven arguments. ENTjs try to argue you down with facts.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    What a great description from Kristiina
    Yeah.

    When I first met him, I previously thought that he appeared rather EXTj-ish-conventional, short hair, serious and stoic, always dressed casually in sports jersey and pants, knowledgeable and good at everything he does, but he was initially someone I didn't bother paying much attention to. However, as he shared more about himself and the rationale behind his actions, I begin to have a better understanding about him. He revealed himself as someone who is always trying to impress people (including been jealous of other people's achievements) and putting up a confident and brave front to the extent that he is now unsure of his own personality and character. It also resulted in him having the lack of close friends and proper and meaningful relationships, rendering him to feel loneliness despite been a sociable person. Moreover, he mentioned about struggling to be humble instead of been proud of his overwhelming achievements.
    I identify strongly with all of this. All of these things are identical or very similar to things that I feel sad about and sometimes complain about. My INFj friend used to be genuinely surprised how comfortably I share the rationale behind my actions. She tends to say, "Ha. wow. that's so honest of you." which kinda makes me feel awkward as if I wasn't supposed to talk about such things, as if I crossed some social border.

    BTW, I do have many close meaningful relationships, but whenever I feel sad, I'll start underestimating them like is expected of a negativist Ni type. (finding alternative interpretations to why those people would hang out with me.)

    PS! I love how you saw him as "good at everything that he does".
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I can relate to that description in part as well.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom

    ENTjs are planners and ENFjs are not.
    My ENFJ ex colleague was an extreme planner.

    In the description of Socionics ENFJ are also said to be strategists, meaning, planning in advance.

    ENTJ are probably somewhat less in that area.


    To get on topic: we're talking about a difference in the Primairy Function, this should be obvious noticable.

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Default Differences between LIE/EIE

    As my knowledge/understanding of socionics grows I wonder if I am indeed EIE instead of LIE (I originally typed myself as EIE). Regardless of which one I am sure I would have to be Ni-subtype.

    What are the easiest ways to tell the two apart?
    What key beliefs will one have that will be different from the other?
    I would think it would be easy to tell between my base and role function but this is something I am having trouble with for some reason, so any ideas on that would be great.

    Any and all ideas appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    As my knowledge/understanding of socionics grows I wonder if I am indeed EIE instead of LIE (I originally typed myself as EIE). Regardless of which one I am sure I would have to be Ni-subtype.

    What are the easiest ways to tell the two apart?
    What key beliefs will one have that will be different from the other?
    I would think it would be easy to tell between my base and role function but this is something I am having trouble with for some reason, so any ideas on that would be great.

    Any and all ideas appreciated.
    I cannot explain it really well, but this is about what I can say...

    I have/had a male and female LIE-ni among my friends. They both were aware of 'where the chances are', meaning opportunistic. The male was clearly very focussed on making money, having the right jobs etc. The female was less of that stereotype. You might wanna post a picture, since LIE male often have characteristic eyebrows, as do the female, though they also have a characteristic lower halve of face, sort of monkey like (sorry ;-)

    A difference between LIE and EIE in women is that the LIE although having a good heart, doesn't take shit from anyone, quick standing on their hind legs. The EIE woman, are extremely charismatic. They trie to please and support people. I've little info on EIE males.

    And ofcourse there is the simple way of choosing, do you into account, Harmony, or Justice.

    Considering the correlation of my viewpoint and yours in another thread, I would say we are Mirrors. But I leave it up to you to decide. I guess when reading all kinds of different approaches to Socionics, one has to get some doubts about their typing at some point. You are at that phase IMO.

    Oh and another common difficulty is that Extraverts can easely confuse thinking they are (Ethical) because they have a big need for people around them.

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    Considering the correlation of my viewpoint and yours in another thread, I would say we are Mirrors.
    That doesn't really mean anything.

    Oh and another common difficulty is that Extraverts can easely confuse thinking they are (Ethical) because they have a big need for people around them.
    Not really; if anything, LIEs are likely to mistake themselves for Introverts because they usually aren't excessively involved in other people's lives.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Well if you want examples of those types, I would suggest Jim Carrey as an Ni-LIE and Salvador Dali as an Ni-EIE.

    As an Ni-EIE, I personaly think this is the best description of an EIE available:

    Socioscope EIE - Wikisocion

    It's a bit exaggerated, but I think the general impression of an EIE is accurate, and much of it resonates with me

    Here are the subtype descriptions by Meged, which I think are fairly accurate:

    EIE subtypes - Wikisocion

    LIE subtypes - Wikisocion
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    That doesn't really mean anything.
    You haven't read the thread that I meant, but oke, it's not a strong argument in general I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    As my knowledge/understanding of socionics grows I wonder if I am indeed EIE instead of LIE (I originally typed myself as EIE). Regardless of which one I am sure I would have to be Ni-subtype.

    What are the easiest ways to tell the two apart?
    What key beliefs will one have that will be different from the other?
    I would think it would be easy to tell between my base and role function but this is something I am having trouble with for some reason, so any ideas on that would be great.

    Any and all ideas appreciated.
    in general to the extent that business (lookalike) partners are difficult to differentiate from each other, most of the behavior probably has to do with outwards similarity. EIEs and LIEs come in a variety of flavors, but in general they have the common themes of restless and assiduous activity and intellectual detachment.

    what basically is different about business types is -- everything; the entire world outlook. to a large extent one's program function determines the lens through which they look at any type of information, and often in cases of some ambiguity between business types i think people tend to see themselves as competent at their role functions and project this competence in lieu of their more natural way of viewing things, which is so routine it carries little conscious awareness. in general one's role function is something that you're capable at -- not good, necessarily, and maybe inclined to overthink or overprepare for or things like this, but it's not an area that is totally lost in terms of its influence over your character.


    some aspects that are often reflective and useful include quadra emphases in communication and communication styles -- EIEs might archetypally be seen as more colorful and reaction-provoking in communication, while LIEs are drier and more pragmatic. LIEs are probably also often more concerned with avoiding treading on the shoes of others or respecting others' emotional ground; EIEs tend to be more image-focused and demanding of others attention.


    more specific information about your experience would presumably be helpful, should you wish to divulge anything about yourself.

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply Jarno it was helpful. I definitely identify more with the LIE parts of ur post (and I would say I'm Justice > Harmony very clearly, which again is another point for LIE). However I've been learning socionics with the bias that I am ENTJ for a long time now so I am trying to be careful to minimize that bias. I'll probably get a picture up in the next few days and everybody can tell me what they think (and if this thread is done by then I'll just post in the members pictures thread).

    Gilly:Thanks for the links but I've already pretty much read the entire wikisocion so I'm really looking more for personal observations that might be useful between distinguishing these two types in particular. However I do agree that those are probably some of the more relevant threads I have looked at in trying to answer this question.

    One thing that I really identified with from Stratievskaya's LIE description was the whole concept of "dependents" rooted in my subconscious Ne. This for me is huge and something that instantly clicked upon reading. I was wondering if EIE feels the same way or if his demonstrative Ne manifests slightly differently.

    Edit: Niffweed: Thanks that was exactly the type of information I was looking for. What type of information are you looking for specifically? I will do my best to answer them.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Heh, I would definitely say that I am more interested in "justice" than "harmony."

    If you find the section of Strat's LIE description that you're talking about I'd be glad to give my opinion.

    So far you seem more logical than ethical to me, but of course I'm sure the same would have been said of me in my early appearances on this forum.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Heh, I would definitely say that I am more interested in "justice" than "harmony."

    If you find the section of Strat's LIE description that you're talking about I'd be glad to give my opinion.

    So far you seem more logical than ethical to me, but of course I'm sure the same would have been said of me in my early appearances on this forum.
    yeah and I would say I come across the opposite in real life, at least until people get talking about something im knowledgeable in/care about. For the most part I am pretty jokey/not serious irl, but of course only when it is appropriate.

    I'll quote the most relevant parts, this is not the whole section on Ne for the LIE.
    He subconsiously compares his own possibilities to the possibilities of others....Subconsiously the LIE feels, that this quality is given him in order to rescue someone, to help out those, who are weaker than him, who fell into the misfortune, which is explained by subconsious orientation to the weak intuition of his dual ESI......LIEs usually try not to bring any one, moreover, into the difficult minute it sees its responsibility in finding of way out from any difficult situation, not only for himself, but also for "his dependents".

    "His dependents" for the LIE - holy concept. On the request of friend it can go both into the fire and into the water: he can, for example, unselfishly return the blood for the man completely familiar to him, he can return all his savings to friends, who proved to be themselves friends in the difficult situation. For the rescuing of its dependents the LIE can accomplish the miracles of courage, resourcefulness and endurance (and nevertheless in private life he can be completely indifferent to requests and commissions of its close ones). ...
    So in short, if someone enters my "little circle" I begin to take on their problems as my own (if I actually consider it a real problem) and begin to feel it is my responsibility to show them the way out or more likely deal with it myself. Basically I think my drive to become wealthy is rooted in this, as I really don't need a lot of money to be happy but if I were to have enough money so my all my friends and family wouldn't have to work shitty jobs they don't like that would probably be my biggest dream (what I literally daydream about).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    Edit: Niffweed: Thanks that was exactly the type of information I was looking for. What type of information are you looking for specifically? I will do my best to answer them.
    well, "tell me about yourself" is a good start.

    some other prompts which you may feel free to answer or ignore:

    what do you do for a living, how did you come to be doing that, do you enjoy doing it, and why?
    what are your hobbies and interests (intellectual/academic or otherwise)? why do you enjoy them?
    what kinds of people are you friendly with and why do you think you associate with those people?
    how do you think you've changed as a person over the course of your life?
    if you could start over in life with a blank slate, what would you do?
    is this restaurant run properly?

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    yeah and I would say I come across the opposite in real life, at least until people get talking about something im knowledgeable in/care about. For the most part I am pretty jokey/not serious irl, but of course only when it is appropriate.
    Sounds like me.

    He subconsiously compares his own possibilities to the possibilities of others....Subconsiously the LIE feels, that this quality is given him in order to rescue someone, to help out those, who are weaker than him, who fell into the misfortune, which is explained by subconsious orientation to the weak intuition of his dual ESI......LIEs usually try not to bring any one, moreover, into the difficult minute it sees its responsibility in finding of way out from any difficult situation, not only for himself, but also for "his dependents".
    Heh, this does sound like me. My friends have compared me to Wilson from House, MD in the sense that I naturally take on the problems of all of my friends, and even some people who aren't really that close to me.


    "His dependents" for the LIE - holy concept. On the request of friend it can go both into the fire and into the water: he can, for example, unselfishly return the blood for the man completely familiar to him, he can return all his savings to friends, who proved to be themselves friends in the difficult situation. For the rescuing of its dependents the LIE can accomplish the miracles of courage, resourcefulness and endurance (and nevertheless in private life he can be completely indifferent to requests and commissions of its close ones).
    So in short, if someone enters my "little circle" I begin to take on their problems as my own (if I actually consider it a real problem) and begin to feel it is my responsibility to show them the way out or more likely deal with it myself. Basically I think my drive to become wealthy is rooted in this, as I really don't need a lot of money to be happy but if I were to have enough money so my all my friends and family wouldn't have to work shitty jobs they don't like that would probably be my biggest dream (what I literally daydream about).
    This is interesting. I have the same dream: of becoming rich and simply allowing my family and "inner sanctum" of friends to live off of my wealth. I imagine us all living in a giant house, overlooking the Oregon or California coast, just living the easy life and pursuing our own personal, artistic, creative, or whatever dreams. I would literally take the life of another human being if it would allow me to finance this and if I wouldn't get caught, of course, heh.

    What I really want more than anything, what would make me happiest of all, is if all of my close friends and familywere safe, well-supported, on the right track in their lives. I have friends from my home town who are having problems right now, and at least once a week I consider selling off a bunch of my stuff and flying home, renting us all an apartment, and helping them all get their lives together. But I know I'm not a savior, that I can't tell them how to live their lives, and that they have to learn their own lessons. I mean, if I tried, I know I could find a way to do it, and that would be great, but I'm sure things would degenerate eventually, or I would resent them for not appreciating my efforts, etc, and in the end I would be depriving them of the chance to become self-sufficient people.

    But, I dunno, somehow the way the description is worded seems different from how I see it. I would think of it as somewhat condescending to think of people as my "dependents." I wouldn't want anyone to be TOTALLY dependent on me, partly because I think it would be bad for their self-esteem; I'd rather just help them do what it takes to get on the right track.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  25. #25
    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    well, "tell me about yourself" is a good start.

    some other prompts which you may feel free to answer or ignore:

    what do you do for a living, how did you come to be doing that, do you enjoy doing it, and why?
    what are your hobbies and interests (intellectual/academic or otherwise)? why do you enjoy them?
    what kinds of people are you friendly with and why do you think you associate with those people?
    how do you think you've changed as a person over the course of your life?
    if you could start over in life with a blank slate, what would you do?
    is this restaurant run properly?
    The problem with me giving that type of information in an instance like this is that I'll realize as I'm typing what functions could be attributed to the information so it probably won't be framed in the most objective way, and probably be compromised by what I beleive myself to be, true or not, which is pretty much the bias I am trying to avoid when considering which of these types I am. hmmm..

    Hobbies I've always been really into strategy games/card games. It started with pokemon when I was like 8, moved on to better games as I started getting into high school. Through most of my first 3 years of high school I played tcgs semi-professionally, before I gave up because I had already accomplished most of what I wanted to do in my games of choice, and I felt that the return wasn't worth the effort invested as much fun as it was. Also was really effect my social life/schooling. I probably would have stopped playing sooner if I didn't give me oppourtunity to travel. When I was 18 poker became the next game I decided to tackle (I'm 19 now) and is now what I do semi professionally, although I am still learning and still feel I have a ways to go, it provides me with about as much money as any good full time job someone my age would get, but can be extremely stressful (much more so than other games) so I do end up doing odd jobs for money when I don't trust myself to play my best for whatever reason (burnout, stress, distracted) and I feel I need a break.

    One pattern I've noticed with my friends is everyone I consider a really close friend is
    1)kind, would not intentionally hurt someone/cause negative emotions unless they were seen as extremely deserving
    2) can offer me some sort of perspective/practical help that I don't really have by myself. In short they have to bring something to the table or it probably won't last.

    However I've also noticed I'm very bad at getting rid of people who I don't really want to get to know better, in fact I am terrible at rejection in all scenarios. This can be bad because I usually feel sorry for the person everyone seems to be ignoring/taking shots at (as long as they haven't done something deserving of said treatment) so I will make it a point to be cool to them, which can be a problem if they get too clingy.

    Any of that help?

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sounds like me.



    Heh, this does sound like me. My friends have compared me to Wilson from House, MD in the sense that I naturally take on the problems of all of my friends, and even some people who aren't really that close to me.






    This is interesting. I have the same dream: of becoming rich and simply allowing my family and "inner sanctum" of friends to live off of my wealth. I imagine us all living in a giant house, overlooking the Oregon or California coast, just living the easy life and pursuing our own personal, artistic, creative, or whatever dreams. I would literally take the life of another human being if it would allow me to finance this and if I wouldn't get caught, of course, heh.

    What I really want more than anything, what would make me happiest of all, is if all of my close friends and familywere safe, well-supported, on the right track in their lives. I have friends from my home town who are having problems right now, and at least once a week I consider selling off a bunch of my stuff and flying home, renting us all an apartment, and helping them all get their lives together. But I know I'm not a savior, that I can't tell them how to live their lives, and that they have to learn their own lessons. I mean, if I tried, I know I could find a way to do it, and that would be great, but I'm sure things would degenerate eventually, or I would resent them for not appreciating my efforts, etc, and in the end I would be depriving them of the chance to become self-sufficient people.

    But, I dunno, somehow the way the description is worded seems different from how I see it. I would think of it as somewhat condescending to think of people as my "dependents." I wouldn't want anyone to be TOTALLY dependent on me, partly because I think it would be bad for their self-esteem; I'd rather just help them do what it takes to get on the right track.
    I identify strongly with everything you have said, I agree dependents is a pretty lame term, as they aren't really depending on us at all so much as we just feel the need for w/e reason to provide for them.

    I think of it more as an internal motivation for success. It's always in the back of my head that money could cure a whole lot of suffering in the lives of the people I care about. You can't just give up and say "fuck it" because that would be turning your back on them.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    However I've also noticed I'm very bad at getting rid of people who I don't really want to get to know better, in fact I am terrible at rejection in all scenarios. This can be bad because I usually feel sorry for the person everyone seems to be ignoring/taking shots at (as long as they haven't done something deserving of said treatment) so I will make it a point to be cool to them, which can be a problem if they get too clingy.

    Any of that help?
    HAH This sounds SO much like me. I always sympathize with the underdog, kids who take a lot of flack...there is this girl at my work who everyone hates on because she is just kind of ridiculous and excessive, but I talk to her, hear her problems out, etc...I feel like it's just part of who I am to sympathize with people who are having a rough time of it, even when they deserve it. One time I got myself in a fit over the show To Catch A Predator where that guy Chris Hanson lures rapists using online chatrooms, and then publicly humiliates them on national TV; I just sort of naturally sympathize with the person getting caught, put myself in their shoes, what it's like to get caught and so brutally embarrassed. I mean, don't get me wrong; they are predators, and they should go to jail, and I think they deserve just about anything that happens to them, but god, do you have to humiliate them, too? Also I can tell that Hanson gets some kind of twisted moralistic pleasure out of berating them, and that pisses me off, too.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    I identify strongly with everything you have said, I agree dependents is a pretty lame term, as they aren't really depending on us at all so much as we just feel the need for w/e reason to provide for them.
    Yeah, like I wouldn't help them if I wasn't invested, if it didn't hurt me to see them suffer, and make me feel good to know that I am helping them. I'm doing it for them, but I'm doing it for them because it means something to me.

    I've thought about being a therapist or something like that, because I'm great at helping people think through their problems and analyzing them and getting to the bottom of things, but honestly I can't care about someone unless I see their pain and it affects me, and if I don't care about them, everything I do is going to be half-hearted and I might end up doing more damage than good.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    HAH This sounds SO much like me. I always sympathize with the underdog, kids who take a lot of flack...there is this girl at my work who everyone hates on because she is just kind of ridiculous and excessive, but I talk to her, hear her problems out, etc...I feel like it's just part of who I am to sympathize with people who are having a rough time of it, even when they deserve it. One time I got myself in a fit over the show To Catch A Predator where that guy Chris Hanson lures rapists using online chatrooms, and then publicly humiliates them on national TV; I just sort of naturally sympathize with the person getting caught, put myself in their shoes, what it's like to get caught and so brutally embarrassed. I mean, don't get me wrong; they are predators, and they should go to jail, and I think they deserve just about anything that happens to them, but god, do you have to humiliate them, too? Also I can tell that Hanson gets some kind of twisted moralistic pleasure out of berating them, and that pisses me off, too.
    Why don't you have a seat over there......

    but I agree I think there is a very clear line between stopping injustice and cruelty (yes I realize I sound like a superhero). Depending on the specific scenario the cruel person is often worse than the offender. It's like some people are just cruel by nature but can only get away with it in a few socially acceptable scenarios.

    yeah I agree it's not like my dream is to stop world poverty (which is admittedly more noble), but I simply want to stop the suffering of the people I care about (or am invested in, as you put it). I don't feel that they should be making compromises in their happiness just to survive, and that to be able to remove that problem would be the greatest gift I could give them.

    On another note I have also thought about being a therapist, but gave up that idea for similar reasons.

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    I remember you once said that all your relationships made sense when you are LIE.

    How is that nowadays... Do they make sense when you are EIE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I remember you once said that all your relationships made sense when you are LIE.

    How is that nowadays... Do they make sense when you are EIE?
    That is actually my main reason I am questioning my type. Although they all seem to make sense in the sense that I can accept them they seem to fit better for EIE. (although I have typed some people based on limited knowledge of their functions, and went with that +our intertype relations so I think there might be a few I mistyped if I indeed mistyped myself),. Also I was considering that I identify more with constructivist > Emotivist and a few other things.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterfulMischief View Post
    That is actually my main reason I am questioning my type. Although they all seem to make sense in the sense that I can accept them they seem to fit better for EIE. (although I have typed some people based on limited knowledge of their functions, and went with that +our intertype relations so I think there might be a few I mistyped if I indeed mistyped myself),. Also I was considering that I identify more with constructivist > Emotivist and a few other things.
    Don't use the wikisocion descriptions then. They try to lump too much stuff in from other dichotomies.

    Basically,

    Yielding · Strategic · Emotivist · Carefree (LIE) (Vortex)

    Obstinate · Strategic · Constructivist · Carefree (EIE) (Dialectical-algorithmic)

    What this means...

    Yielding types are cool with less detailed logic; Obstinate types demand intricate logic. This is why, in logical disputes, Obstinates find other Obstinates quite yielding, and Yieldings find us rather obstinate

    As for emotions, Obstinates don't mind feeling powerful emotions, while Yieldings want them in smaller chunks that they can chew on.

    Constructivist EIEs also can't shake their emotions. These tend to feed back without a logical environment to rein them in. Does anyone with strong Ti have this element of control/support?

    In contrast, I guess LIEs are very constant, and don't tend to make judgements based on Fe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I cannot explain it really well, but this is about what I can say...

    I have/had a male and female LIE-ni among my friends. They both were aware of 'where the chances are', meaning opportunistic. The male was clearly very focussed on making money, having the right jobs etc. The female was less of that stereotype. You might wanna post a picture, since LIE male often have characteristic eyebrows, as do the female, though they also have a characteristic lower halve of face, sort of monkey like (sorry ;-)

    A difference between LIE and EIE in women is that the LIE although having a good heart, doesn't take shit from anyone, quick standing on their hind legs. The EIE woman, are extremely charismatic. They trie to please and support people. I've little info on EIE males.

    And ofcourse there is the simple way of choosing, do you into account, Harmony, or Justice.

    Considering the correlation of my viewpoint and yours in another thread, I would say we are Mirrors. But I leave it up to you to decide. I guess when reading all kinds of different approaches to Socionics, one has to get some doubts about their typing at some point. You are at that phase IMO.

    Oh and another common difficulty is that Extraverts can easely confuse thinking they are (Ethical) because they have a big need for people around them.
    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    in general to the extent that business (lookalike) partners are difficult to differentiate from each other, most of the behavior probably has to do with outwards similarity. EIEs and LIEs come in a variety of flavors, but in general they have the common themes of restless and assiduous activity and intellectual detachment.

    what basically is different about business types is -- everything; the entire world outlook. to a large extent one's program function determines the lens through which they look at any type of information, and often in cases of some ambiguity between business types i think people tend to see themselves as competent at their role functions and project this competence in lieu of their more natural way of viewing things, which is so routine it carries little conscious awareness. in general one's role function is something that you're capable at -- not good, necessarily, and maybe inclined to overthink or overprepare for or things like this, but it's not an area that is totally lost in terms of its influence over your character.


    some aspects that are often reflective and useful include quadra emphases in communication and communication styles -- EIEs might archetypally be seen as more colorful and reaction-provoking in communication, while LIEs are drier and more pragmatic. LIEs are probably also often more concerned with avoiding treading on the shoes of others or respecting others' emotional ground; EIEs tend to be more image-focused and demanding of others attention.


    more specific information about your experience would presumably be helpful, should you wish to divulge anything about yourself.
    I can agree with most of it.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    @MasterfulMischief:
    1: Would you prefer the things which you use to have a connection between them, in the sense of uniformity, or ideal. For example to consider some things are "made for you" or, let's say you build a computer from components, do you think having all the components manufactured by the same company (eg: only one between Asus, Gigabyte, etc - from mainboard to DVD-writer) would bring you an advantage, they fit better together. Or you use what's best on the market for every component without concern of interconnection?
    2: Did it happen to identify yourself with characters, peoples or races from legends or fantasy to "find yourself"?
    3: When you have a creative idea, do you prefer to find people to work with you on it, or prefer to do it alone, "unstained" with others' involvement?
    4: What about your beliefs, spirit, gods, magic?
    5: Do you "heat" yourself when you share exciting plans with your friends?
    6: Do you think pretty everyone whom you speak to should usually understand what you mean, or there are only few who really understand what you mean?
    7: Do you think we have a role to play on this earth? What kind?
    8: Would you find easy to find yourself a life partner? Why?
    1. It doesn't really matter to me too much either way, if they fit well together and still looked aesthetically pleasing from the outside I would not care if they were all made by the same company. Although if I were actually buying a computer I probably wouldn't go through the trouble of building it myself and just shop around. If it came down to getting one or the other I would weigh just how big the differences are pick what I thought was the best deal.

    2. I don't know if I found myself through those stories/legends per se, so much as through constant effort on my part in the arena of personal development. But I will say I tend to identify very strongly with certain characters, real or fictional and can look to them for a bit of inspiration when I am trying to be my ideal. I would also say that this is something that is probably a lot stronger in me than in most other people. When I really like a story it's usually because I identify very strongly with some aspect of it, and I love seeing that part of me reflected back at me.

    3. If I am not sure on how it will work out, I will keep it to myself. But if I feel there is a good chance of success and I feel my close friends will be interested I will bring them in no questions. This also helps me not to get distracted if I feel someone else is keeping tabs on the project w/e it is.

    4. I don't believe in magic. I am agnostic when it comes to gods/spirits, although leaning more towards atheism than any particular religion. I just feel we are just beginning to understand the universe and even so we are very far from figuring everything out so it would be ridiculous to completely dismiss the idea of a higher being than ourselves. But as far as the christian bible is concerned about an almighty being looking down on us who cares what we do and wishes us to live our lives by a certain code I think is complete bullshit, as I also believe for most other religions(some others are just slight bullshit). If there was a god I think he would simply be a creator, probably not all powerful, and care very little about what we do.

    5. I guess I do but I don't like to be wrong so I often only project the ideas I have that I am confident in succeeding in. I heat up more with friends trying to figure out our various problems or having deep personal conversations.

    6. If I don't feel the person will understand what I'm saying than I usually don't say it. Consequently, I keep a lot of my thoughts to myself. But I do feel that when I do get an idea across that the person very rarely has the sufficient perspective/background to get the entireity of what I mean (which includes it's implications of which I probably have built up in my head). Because of this I usually just toss them a well rounded argument as a tip of the iceberg and see where it goes from there.

    7. I don't believe we have a divine role to play so much as a duty to ourselves/our species. I believe our role in this age is simply to successfully integrate ourselves with the recent technological boom that will continue to grow exponentionally for many many years. Spiritual fulfillment is done first through understanding our universe/our minds, so once we increase our knowledge on these we can perhaps reach some sort of spiritual enlightenment through our findings. Also I believe at least in the next 200 years or so things like Old age, most diseases and human poverty (in the form of starvation anyway) will become much less of a problem, and I believe it is out role to help bring about those changes (not just my view but the view of many experts that I happen to agree with).

    8. I would find it easy enough to find someone to become my life partner, it terms of having a girlfriend/wife or w/e, but it is very rare that I feel true compatibility, for that to happen many things have to be right, most important of which being we have similar world views/strivings.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    For the sake of comparison, as ephemeros suggested:

    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros
    @MasterfulMischief]:
    1: Would you prefer the things which you use to have a connection between them, in the sense of uniformity, or ideal. For example to consider some things are "made for you" or, let's say you build a computer from components, do you think having all the components manufactured by the same company (eg: only one between Asus, Gigabyte, etc - from mainboard to DVD-writer) would bring you an advantage, they fit better together. Or you use what's best on the market for every component without concern of interconnection?
    In the end I'd probably use what was best, but ideally I would like things to be "uniform," both for aesthetic reasons and because things generally tend to work better together if they are made to work together.

    2: Did it happen to identify yourself with characters, peoples or races from legends or fantasy to "find yourself"?
    There are a few characters from literature and film that I identify with strongly, but I don't think I have ever used them in terms of my own personal development. In general I like the idea of comparing situations with similar characteristics in order to learn from them (some people call this "history," heh), but in the end I think we can only really learn about ourselves from our own experience.

    3: When you have a creative idea, do you prefer to find people to work with you on it, or prefer to do it alone, "unstained" with others' involvement?
    Usually I don't involve other people because my creative pursuits generally only involve me, and because I don't want to hype myself up too much. However I do like sharing my work with others.

    4: What about your beliefs, spirit, gods, magic?
    Nothing. All inventions of the human mind to cope with uncertainty and a desire for something greater than the world they see every day. We don't know everything yet about how the universe works, and it's possible that we never will simply by virtue of the nature of our perception and physical limitations, but personally I am not inclined to think that things like magic or spirits or Gods exist.

    5: Do you "heat" yourself when you share exciting plans with your friends?
    Not sure what you mean by this.

    6: Do you think pretty everyone whom you speak to should usually understand what you mean, or there are only few who really understand what you mean?
    I'm a pretty lucid speaker and I don't think I have ever had someone tell me that they don't understand what I'm saying. I'm rather articulate and usually don't have any trouble getting my point across once I've decided that it's important enough to share.

    7: Do you think we have a role to play on this earth? What kind?
    Personally I think it's up to each person to decide his or her own "role." There are many things we could do to influence the well-being of future generations of humans, and I think that we are responsible on some level for not fucking the earth up too badly and for continuing technological development so that they can have things that we might only dream of, but I also believe that life would be fruitless and that we would rapidly become robots if we were to inherently prioritize technological development and "progress" for the sake of the future over our own experience and enjoyment of life. Our lives are our own and it would be disingenuous at best, suicidal at worst to give them up in service of results that we will never see.

    8: Would you find easy to find yourself a life partner? Why?
    No. I have very high standards and I'm a really strange person in general so I would actualy be pretty surprised, and completely overjoyed, if I found someone I could really live with forever. I'm not hell-bent on the idea that I will find someone perfect for me; it would be nice, really nice, but between my social anxiety and eccentricity, I'm not holding out.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    The man with the plan MasterfulMischief's Avatar
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    Thanks Gilly that was helpful.

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    It'd be easier--and quicker--to show you the difference in pictures than tell it with words.

    It'd be easiest, if you wanna type yourself, to just post a picture... I could tell you your subtype too.

    ephemeros: those questions are nuts.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeros View Post
    I mean if you become very excited about your plan, and inpatient to put it in practice, let's say, going in a place with your friends where you never went before.
    Ok, then yes. I can be insanely enthusiastic about ideas of things to do. When I feel like I have a good idea for something to do, some new experience, I will literally force people into going along with me I used to peer pressure kids into doing drugs a lot :X

    I asked you about what you mean, I'm not talking about language skills Language is not enough if you want to transmit attitudes, or artistic creative ideas. Do people act as expected, are they able to "read" between the lines, do you feel they understand? My point is that EIEs are inclined to transmit their state of mind which is not received as expected in many cases, as long as the LIEs don't care about this too much, because their thoughts resemble more like instructions about tangible things.
    I rarely feel misunderstood when trying to communicate. Even when it comes to feelings or general ideas, I'm very good at conveying just about anything.

    Take it as a gift. EIEs are original and I think that's one of the causes, they feel the urge to get out with something bombastic, or never seen/heard before.
    Yeah, I think I am pretty much doomed to be an artist

    Question: if you heard about David Lynch, do you like his movies, do you think they have something special?
    I watched most of the first season of Twin Peaks with my sister, and it's definitely good shit. Never seen his movies, though.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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