Minimalist description of a historical person

[Expat]

I'm interested in how description by non-socionists can convey the type.

This is a description of a famous historical figure (don't bother trying to guess who he was).

Can you see any type?

“

What's his name is 5 feet 4 inches in height, his visage is long, his cheeks hollow, his complexion livid brown: his eyes are of a middle size, and sunk deep in his head, which is covered thinly with hair. His mustaches give him a dark and wild aspect, particularly when he is in a passion. His whole body is thin and meagre. He has the appearance of a man 65 years old. In walking, his arms are in continual motion. He cannot walk long, but becomes soon fatigued. He likes his hammock, where he sits or lolls. He gives way to sudden gusts of resentment, and becomes in a moment a madman, throws himself into his hammock, and utters curses and imprecations upon all around him. He likes to indulge in sarcasms upon absent persons, reads only light French literature, is a bold rider, and passionately fond of waltzing. He is fond of hearing himself talk and giving toasts. In adversity, and destitute of aid from without, he is perfectly free from passion and violence of temper. He then becomes mild, patient, docile, and even submissive. In a great measure he conceals his faults under the politeness of a man educated in the so-called beau monde, possesses an almost Asiatic talent for dissimulation, and understands mankind better than the mass of his countrymen

.”

[Sorc]

ENFj

[Elro]

ENFj

Yeah, that's my impression too.

[Gilly]

That, or ILE.

[Expat]

Yes, definitely a Fe quadra type.

ENFj makes sense. The person being described is Simon Bolivar.

[Sorc]

well most famous ENFjs in history having fame of being "spiritual leaders" and "national heroes" - i dont remember all and i dont sympasize to all but is matter of ideology and background i was/they were grown in. ******, Osama Bin Laden (i dont like those) Che Guevara , Jeanne D'Arc etc..... so Bolivar fits to this group pretty well

[Expat]

well most famous ENFjs in history having fame of being "spiritual leaders" and "national heroes" - i dont remember all and i dont sympasize to all but is matter of ideology and background i was/they were grown in. ******, Osama Bin Laden (i dont like those) Che Guevara , Jeanne D'Arc etc..... so Bolivar fits to this group pretty well

I agree only partly. I think it makes perfect sense that leaders that have to mobilize the masses at ground level, personally, will very often be ENFjs, but this is characteristic of the Beta quadra generally. Lenin was ESTp for instance, and of your list I think Guevara was ISTj rather than ENFj. He wasn't very successful in mobilizing people directly; Castro did that. D'Arc was a likely ENFj, I agree.

I don't know that much about Bolivar to be certain but I think ENFj fits him, too.

[Exodus]

well most famous ENFjs in history having fame of being "spiritual leaders" and "national heroes" - i dont remember all and i dont sympasize to all but is matter of ideology and background i was/they were grown in. ******, Osama Bin Laden (i dont like those) Che Guevara , Jeanne D'Arc etc..... so Bolivar fits to this group pretty well

I agree only partly. I think it makes perfect sense that leaders that have to mobilize the masses at ground level, personally, will very often be ENFjs, but this is characteristic of the Beta quadra generally. Lenin was ESTp for instance, and of your list I think Guevara was ISTj rather than ENFj. He wasn't very successful in mobilizing people directly; Castro did that. D'Arc was a likely ENFj, I agree.

It seems crazy to me that so many famous world leaders have been Beta (or Gamma, even). What do you think?

[Expat]

I think it makes sense that a higher proportion of quadra types would be found among leaders, and Betas in particular, especially leaders where "ideological", "revolutionary" or "charismatic" leadership is required, as in mobilizing the masses.

[Exodus]

I think it makes sense that a higher proportion of quadra types would be found among leaders, and Betas in particular, especially leaders where "ideological", "revolutionary" or "charismatic" leadership is required, as in mobilizing the masses.

Yeah, it makes sense, but from what I've seen the proportion is extreme. What counter-examples do you know of (specifically Alpha types - aside from Robespierre, of course)?

[olduser]

I can think of few. If it's any consolation-- alphas are authorities in many academic studies! But leadership is not a trait associated with the alpha quadra. Here comes UDP.

edit: A lot of alphas I know advocate a moral-political philosophy that promotes individualism and completely falls apart when anyone considers reality and how many people need food more than a national identity.

[Sorc]

i think politics is just not Alpha - But Alot of scientist and stuff here, literature etc etc

[Expat]

Yeah, it makes sense, but from what I've seen the proportion is extreme. What counter-examples do you know of (specifically Alpha types - aside from Robespierre, of course)?

Angela Merkel, the chancellor of Germany, and Thabo Mbeki, the president of South Africa, both INTj imo; but they are not the same kind of "mobilizing" leaders.

[FDG]

I think it makes sense that a higher proportion of quadra types would be found among leaders, and Betas in particular, especially leaders where "ideological", "revolutionary" or "charismatic" leadership is required, as in mobilizing the masses.

Yeah, it makes sense, but from what I've seen the proportion is extreme.

This is because ENFjs are the only Fe Se extraverted type. They are not going to make sense and thus take more risks than every other type, and they do not care about their comfort and thus are more likely to risk their lives. This is to say that probably ENFj is also the type that has died the most trying to revolutionize, and thus its relative percentage of successes is likely the same as other types'.

[Expat]

This is because ENFjs are the only Fe Se extraverted type. They are not going to make sense and thus take more risks than every other type, and they do not care about their comfort and thus are more likely to risk their lives. This is to say that probably ENFj is also the type that has died the most trying to revolutionize, and thus its relative percentage of successes is likely the same as other types'.

I agree with a lot of this.

Another aspect is that ENFjs will often achieve a lot until their risk-taking does them in; perhaps Jeanne d'Arc is a typical example. In Reinin, Ni EJ is the only point where you have a peak of Carefree, Resolute, and Strategic - with EJ temperament to boot. A recipe for figures like d'Arc or England's Henry V. If backed up by high intelligence and a bit of common sense (perhaps not a common trait in extreme Ni subtypes, heh), it can result in astounding achievement - until they overstep themselves, culminating in self-destruction, or at least in ultimate failure - although sometimes they die of natural causes before the failure becoming clear, so they are regarded as sort of supermen by posterity - two examples are the Emperor Trajan and King Henry V. Perhaps even Garibaldi, in a way. Or even FDR, in the sense that he refused to accept his own mortality.

[Sorc]

Also there is a thing that ENFjs are very controversary and Opportunistic, and Idealistic.
If they believe idea and they see its going (now Fate thingie comes to action) they continuing till end. End well , they know there will be end, they waiting for it and at some point they creating/meeting it. Theose who really achieving their point submissing themselves to end by this marking point of culmination and end of sturggle , well and by this - their victory ( it can be loss at ****** and similar cases but he did alot so "victory" is allegoric).
Also it always caused by deviding society for "Bads" and "goods" and ENFj supporting goods, so they have enemies - they have ones who hate them badly and want their death/lose. Its struggle, and its not soft politics/diplomacy , thats why Alpha and Delta guys taking other politics niche.