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Thread: Types and their pathologies

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    Default Types and their pathologies

    According to Socionics each type perceives the reality and processes information in a unique manner. The meaning and value given to different kinds of infomation would also vary, partly depending on the type. While people of every type may and indeed do behave in most diverse ways, due to the innate nature of their Information Metabolism System, they would nonetheless be inclined to develop psychopathologies or personality disorders characteristic of their personality type.

    I originally came across these colorful chraracters while looking for evidence of how the hidden agenda might manifest in people's behaviour but it seems that these examples do also generally corroborate the Oldham's personality theory as well. In my opinion people may, depending on their subtype and life histories, develop personality disorders not characteristic of their true personality type. In other words using the Oldham's personality theory to recognize Socionics types is fraught with difficulties and often unreliable.

    One should also keep in mind that these are all rather extreme examples and by no means intented to illustrate normal behaviour of any type. I am, however, inclined to believe that if Socionics is ever to become more popular in the west people need to see many practical demonstrations on how Socionics can help them understand people's behaviour and relationships. I may post more case studies in the future, should I manage to find relevant stories to copy and paste. :roll: Feel free to comment or add your own examples.

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    Default ENTJ Alois Hitler (father of the dictator)




    Description of Alois Hitler's personality from the OSS report: Psychoanalysis of Adolf Hitler:

    Very little is known about Alois Hitler's character. It seems that he was very proud of his achievements in the Civil Service and yet he retired from this service at the astonishing age of fifty-six, four years after Adolph was born. In very rapid succession the family moved into several different villages and the father tried his hand at farming. It is said, however, that he always wore his customs official's uniform and insisted on being addressed as Herr Oberoffizial Hitler. According to reports, he liked to lord it over his neighbors whom he may have looked down upon as "mere" peasants. In any event, it seems quite certain that he enjoyed sitting in the tavern and relating his adventures as a customs official and also in discussing political topics.

    He died on his way to the tavern in Leonding from a stroke of apoplexy in 1903.

    He is generally described as a very domineering individual who was a veritable tyrant in his home. William Patrick Hitler says that he has heard from his father, Adolph's elder [Page 99] half-brother, that he used to best the children unmercifully. On one occasion it is alleged he beat the older son into a state of unconsciousness and on another occasion beat Adolph so severely that he left him for dead. It is also alleged that he was somewhat of a drunkard and that frequently the children would have to bring him home from the taverns. When he reached home a grand scene would take place during which he would beat wife, children and dog rather indiscriminately. This story is generally accepted and yet there is little real evidence in favor of it except what Hitler himself tells us in MEIN KAMPF.

    http://www.google.fi/search?q=cache:...hl=fi&ie=UTF-8

    Unfortunately the Nizkor server seems to be down but at least the cached Google version was available.


    Here is another account of his personality. This one is from a somewhat dubious book promotion site.



    Alois Schickelgruber, unlike his mother and her relatives, or others living in their small village of Spital, in the hilly and wooded wilds of lower Austria, took after his presumed Jewish father. Alois was bright and ambitious and yearned to be something more than a fashioner of shoes--his trade as a young man. He soon left home to make a better life for himself.

    Still in his teens, Alois moved to Vienna and soon obtained a well paying post as a Austrian customs inspector --a position worthy of some status and respect as well as power and authority over underlings. Alois was well suited to this line of work and relished his authoritarian status. He wore his uniform with arrogance and pride and demanded that his lowly "peasant" neighbors address him as "Herr Oberoffizial Hitler."

    And yet, it was not all work and no play, for the arrogant young Alois had developed a taste for alcohol. He not only spent a lot of time chasing women but had a lot of luck catching them too. Alois Schickelgruber was an arrogant, self-confident, brutal man with an enormous sexual appetite.

    For years the self-centered and autocratic Alois lived a highly sexual and immoral life. Over the course of his many years, Alois apparently dallied and carried on affairs with several different maidens and at least one 9 year old fraulein, his cousin, Klara.

    Nevertheless, although Alois became ever more intimate with alcohol and was a chaser of skirts, he was and remained exceedingly intelligent and shrewed and ever open to the possibility of increasing his financial status.

    At age 36, he married a wealthy widow, Anna Glassl-Horer, who was 14 years his senior. Alois helped himself to her money, but did not feel bound by his marriage vows, for he soon took up and began living with a teenage waitress, Franziska Matzelsberger.

    Alois was likely engaging in several affairs, including, perhaps having sex on a regular basis with his 9 year old cousin, Klara Poelzl, the mother of Adolf Hitler. Alois was so sexually enamored with Klara, that he adopted her, and became her legal guardian. He moved her into Anna's home, where he then probably commenced to sexually assault her on a regular basis--a not uncommon fate for young girls of that period; nine years being the age of consent in many countries at that time, including England.

    http://www.brain-mind.com/Hitler2.html

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    Default INTP Ludwig Wittgenstein




    I have found Ludwig Wittgenstein often a highly obscure philosopher but nonetheless a fascinating character with many original insights to the nature of human condition. This quintessential INTP seems to also illustrate how INFPs and INTPs can wrestle with similar issues and appear deceptively similar. I am, however, confident he was INTP, if only because Wittgenstein found it much easier to demonstrate his knowledge and erudition rather than to show up his love and affection. The Socionics type is - after all - not primarly about our deeply held values, but about the structure of our minds - and how it affects our behaviour.

    All these excerpts come from the book: Wittgenstein the Duty of Genius, quoted in his website by Rychard Bouwens who comments:
    They particularly resonate with me because from our views on life to our effect on others to the details of our emotional states, we're almost exactly the same.



    There is no doubt that, though he regarded ethics as a realm in which nothing was sayable, Wittgenstein did indeed think and say a great deal about moral problems. In fact, his life might be said to have been dominated by a moral struggle -- the struggle to be anstaendig (decent), which for him meant, above all, overcoming the temptations presented by his pride and vanity to be dishonest.

    It is not true, as some of his friends have insisted, that Wittgenstein was so honest that he was incapable of telling a lie. Nor is it true that he had no trace of the vanity of which he was always accusing himself. Of course, to say this is not to claim that he was, by ordinary standards, either dishonest or vain. He most certainly was not. But there were, equally certainly, occasions on which his concern to impress people overcame his concern to speak the strict truth. In his diary, he says of himself:

    What others think of me always occupies me to an extraordinary extent. I am often concerned to make a good impression, i.e. I very frequently think about the impression I make on others and it is pleasant if I think that is good and unpleasant if not.

    And though, in stating this, he is only remarking on something that is platitudinously true of all of us, yet he is also drawing attention to what he felt to be the biggest barrier between himself and anstaendigkeit (decency) -- namely, his vanity.



    His family were dismayed by the changes they saw in him. They could not understand why he wanted to train to become a teacher in elementary schools. Hadn't Bertrand Russell himself acknowledged his philosophical genius, and stated that the next big step in philosophy would come from him? Why did he now want to waste that genius on the uneducated poor? It was, his sister Hermine remarked, like somebody wanting to use a precision instrument to open crates. To this, Wittgenstein replied:

    You remind me of somebody who is looking out through a closed window and cannot explain to himself the strange movements of a passer-by. He cannot tell what sort of storm is raging out there and that this person might only be managing to stay on his feet.



    Wittgenstein's ideal of primordial life, wild life striving to erupt into the open' -- even though he rarely felt himself to live up to it -- is a key to understanding both the purpose of his work and the direction of his life. In so far as he felt himself to be too theoretical, 'too wise,' he felt deadened. The need for passion, for religion, was not just something he saw in the world around him; it was something he felt in himself. He felt himself to share exactly the faults characteristic of our age, and to need the same remedy: faith and love. And just as our age finds belief in God impossible, so too found that he could not pray: 'it's as though my knees were stiff. I am afraid of dissolution, should I become soft.'

    In love, too, though he felt a deep need for it, he often felt himself incapable, frightened. And, of course, frightened of its being taken away from him, all too conscious of its possible impermanence and of its uncertainty. In 1946 -- and it probably came as some relief to find that he was, after all, still capable of loving someone.

    http://www.ucolick.org/~bouwens/pers...tgenstein.html

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    I believe that the hidden agenda contributes a great deal to one's potential pathologies, and it is for this reason why I believe that those who share the same hidden agenda will therefore have similiar psychological disturbances. However, despite the strong correlation between type and and their psychological disturbances, one cannot say from an scientifically sound standpoint that each type can be corresponded simply one personality disorder, as it is a common phenomenon to possess more than one.

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    Default INTJ Kurt Gödel



    Gödel is best known for his proof of "Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems". In 1931 he published these results in über formal unentscheidbare Sätze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme. He proved fundamental results about axiomatic systems, showing in any axiomatic mathematical system there are propositions that cannot be proved or disproved within the axioms of the system. In particular the consistency of the axioms cannot be proved. This ended a hundred years of attempts to establish axioms which would put the whole of mathematics on an axiomatic basis. One major attempt had been by Bertrand Russell with Principia Mathematica (1910-13). Another was Hilbert's formalism which was dealt a severe blow by Gödel's results. The theorem did not destroy the fundamental idea of formalism, but it did demonstrate that any system would have to be more comprehensive than that envisaged by Hilbert. Gödel's results were a landmark in 20th-century mathematics, showing that mathematics is not a finished object, as had been believed. It also implies that a computer can never be programmed to answer all mathematical questions.


    Concerns with his health became increasingly worrying to Gödel as the years went by. Rudolf, Gödel's brother, was a medical doctor so the medical details given by him in the following will be accurate. He wrote:-

    My brother had a very individual and fixed opinion about everything and could hardly be convinced otherwise. Unfortunately he believed all his life that he was always right not only in mathematics but also in medicine, so he was a very difficult patient for doctors. After severe bleeding from a duodenal ulcer ... for the rest of his life he kept to an extremely strict (over strict?) diet which caused him slowly to lose weight.

    Adele, Gödel's wife, was a great support to him and she did much to ease the tensions which troubled him. However she herself began to suffer health problems, having two strokes and a major operation. Towards the end of his life Gödel became convinced that he was being poisoned and, refusing to eat to avoid being poisoned, essentially starved himself to death [3]:-

    A slight person and very fastidious, Gödel was generally worried about his health and did not travel or lecture widely in later years. He had no doctoral students, but through correspondence and personal contact with the constant succession of visitors to Princeton, many people benefited from his extremely quick and incisive mind. Friend to Einstein, von Neumann and Morgenstern, he particularly enjoyed philosophical discussion.

    He died [18]:-

    ... sitting in a chair in his hospital room at Princeton, in the afternoon of 14 January 1978.

    It would be fair to say that Gödel's ideas have changed the course of mathematics [3]:-

    ... it seems clear that the fruitfulness of his ideas will continue to stimulate new work. Few mathematicians are granted this kind of immortality.

    http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his...ans/Godel.html


    After many years of residence in the United States, the time came for Kurt Gödel to take on American citizenship. This required him to answer a number of simple questions about the American Constitution in order to demonstrate his general knowledge and appreciation of it. Moreover, he needed two nominees to vouch for his character and accompany him to this oral examination before a local judge. Gödel's sponsors were impressive - Albert Einstein and Oskar Morgenstern, co-inventor with John von Neumann of "game theory". Einstein tells the story about Gödel's instability and lack of common sense in the run-up to this simple citizenship interview.

    Apparently, Gödel called Morgenstern on the eve of interview to tell him that he had discovered a logical loophole in the framing of the Constitution which would enable a dictatorship to be created. Morgenstern told him that this was absurdly unlikely and under no circumstance should he even mention the possibility at his interview the following day. When the day of interview came, Einstein and Morgenstern tried to distract Gödel from thinking too much about flaw in the constitution by generating a steady stream of jokes and stories.
    At the interview itself the judge was suitably impressed by the sterling character and public persona of Gödel's witnesses, and broke with tradition by inviting them to sit in during the exam. The judge began by saying to Gödel, "Up to now you have held German citizenship." Gödel corrected this slight affront, noting that he was Austrian. Unfazed, the judge continued, "Anyhow, it was under an evil dictatorship . . . but fortunately that's not possible in America." With the magic word dictatorship out of the bag, Gödel was not to be denied. "On the contrary, I know how that can happen. And I can prove it!" By all accounts, it took efforts of not only Einstein and Morgenstern but also the judge to calm Gödel down and prevent him from going into a detailed and lenghty discourse about his "discovery."
    (J. Barrow, Pi in the Sky, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1992, p.118)

    http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his...ans/Godel.html

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    Dmitri Lytov's Avatar
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    All you wrote about Alois Hitler has little in common with the socionic type Entrepreneur (ENTj, logical-intuitive extrovert). It rather resembles Inspector (ISTj, logical-sensory introvert).

    Well, maybe in some traits this description does resemble the type ENTJ from the Myers-Briggs typology. However, the scales in this typology are somewhat displaced in relation to sicionics.
    www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    All you wrote about Alois Hitler has little in common with the socionic type Entrepreneur (ENTj, logical-intuitive extrovert). It rather resembles Inspector (ISTj, logical-sensory introvert).

    Well, maybe in some traits this description does resemble the type ENTJ from the Myers-Briggs typology. However, the scales in this typology are somewhat displaced in relation to sicionics.
    Well there are similarities to both types and as there are no 100% reliable ways to check the correctness of typing - we may be well have to agree to disagree. I would though say that extroverted thinkers may well appear to be introverts - as Gulenko has written. I think we have to look at the structure of the mind. Extroverts are often no more socially skilled than introverts but they are much more dependent on how the outside world perceives them. If Alois had been ISTJ could you try to explain to me what was the psychological payoff he got from his constant insistence on respect. In my experience ISTJs are numeorus among the most devotedly religious people I know whereas ENTJs often display a sense of humour with clearly sadistic undertones.

    I think there is a great danger in every personality type theory to attribute vile and socially unacceptable behaviour to only some types when in fact it can often be observed in people of all types.

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    Sorry, I forgot to log in, the previous post (reply to Dmitri Lytov) was also by me.

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    Sorry, I forgot to log in, the previous post (reply to Dmitri Lytov) was also by me.

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    Dmitri Lytov's Avatar
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    I know whereas ENTJs often display a sense of humour with clearly sadistic undertones.
    Again, what kind of ENTJs do you know - according to socionics or according to David Keirsey? These two are DIFFERENT TYPES.

    Well, maybe I need to start a topic about the difference between these two typologies. It is much deeper than in the J/P dimension - it is in certain fundamental stereotypes.
    www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.

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    Default On typing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    [Again, what kind of ENTJs do you know - according to socionics or according to David Keirsey? These two are DIFFERENT TYPES.

    Well, maybe I need to start a topic about the difference between these two typologies. It is much deeper than in the J/P dimension - it is in certain fundamental stereotypes.
    I do know about the different stereotypes but often I think the disagreement between MBTI and Socionics is not as great as it seems since the different stereotypes often seem to relate to different subtypes and/or healthy vs. pathological cases. But fundamentally the question comes down to how the types can be determined and what methods are available to verify the results. I know you do not always agree with Socionics.com but nonetheless going through this list of different methods may help to clarify our thinking. I would appreciate if you were to add your comments after mine:

    http://www.socionics.com/advan/methods.htm

    Methods of psychological type identification

    Needless to say, the right identification of psychological type is very important as all further analysis of personality and/or forecasts of relations will be based on this. There are many different methods that can be utilised. Below you can find a quick overview of some of them. In order to obtain highly accurate results, a combination of different methods is advisable.

    Identification by tests

    This is a very popular method. The personality tests are usually based on four scales of preferences: Introversion vs. Extroversion, Thinking vs. Feeling, Intuition vs. Sensing and Judging vs. Perceiving. The person is given a list of questions and a choice of answers. In the end the answers are tallied showing the person's preference in each of the four scales. These four preferences will identify their psychological type.


    Advantages of the method: usually no experience is required; can easily be converted to use internationally.

    Disadvantages of the method: has medium to low reliability; requires willingness and some time from the participant in order to complete the test.


    Of course when trying to type celebrities tests are not available but I think there are fundamental problems with tests in any case. First and most obvious is the question of reliability. Studies on MBTI have produced mixed results:

    Several studies have shown that when retested, even after intervals as short as five weeks, as many as 50 percent will be classified into a different type.

    http://skepdic.com/myersb.html

    Some conclusions about the reliability of the MBTI® instrument that would be helpful to know . . .

    Reliabilities (when scores are treated as continuous scores, as in most other psychological instruments) are as good or better than other personality instruments.

    On retest, people come out with three to four type preferences the same 75-90% of the time.
    When people change their type on retest, it is usually on one scale, and in scales where the preference clarity was low.

    The reliabilities are quite good across age and ethnic groups, although reliabilities on some scales with some groups may be somewhat lower. The T-F scale tends to have the lowest reliability of the four scales.

    There are some groups for whom reliabilities are especially low, and caution needs to be exercised in thinking about using the MBTI® instrument with these groups. (For example, children)
    .

    http://www.capt.org/The_MBTI_Instrum...d_Validity.cfm


    I suppose the reliability would depend on the type of tests used but even a fairly high degree of reliability leaves many people confused and possibly wrongly typed - and in Socionics the type must be completely right for the intertype relations theory to work.
    Another fundamental problem is how can we be certain that people's perception of their own personality corresponds to their "true type". The Socionics.com talks about masktypes - people adapting the behaviour patterns of another type in order to cope with the demands of life and protect the weaker aspects of their personality. I think this would be quite common. I quoted Gulenko who wrote that extroverted thinking types may often think that they are introverts but there seems to be even other sources of error, descriped for example in this highly interesting article: Thank You

    Thus the deviation does not exceed 20%, that coincides with deviation for diads of all socion. It is connected in our opinion with sharply expressed extraverted, expansionary behavioural stance, cultivated in the American culture, which influences a person from childhood. Therefore some types, like intuitive introverts, "mimic" their duals – extravert sensorics, because this helps their adaptation in the American society. Certainly, it does not mean, that their type of the person change: "mimicry" is rather superficial and manifests in extraverted social behaviour (including the answers to the tests). However true type is determined not by the answers to the tests, but by internal psychological structure, which can be detected not by the test, but by individual experts' work with the people.
    EGO

    SuperID

    So, MBTI (and, however, other tests) does not give correct definition of a type, at least, for a half of socion. Therefore some results obtained by it, require revising and correct check. The allocation in a-2, b-2, c-1 and d-1 diad means, that intuitive introverts answer questions of the MBTI like their duals. From the side of socionics, it means, that the answers follow not the introvert EGO block, but the extravert SuperID block, which is appropriate to dual type of tested person. What is the cause of this phenomenon? The phenomenon of the answering not by the EGO block, but also by all other blocks - SuperEGO, SuperID, ID - is well known in socionics. Sometimes it is determined by ethno-cultural stance, for example, frequently men of an ethic type answer like logics. And logic women answer like ethic, emotional types. In our case the situation is similar.
    Apparently, the statistics of the intertype family relations also requires similar correction.


    (I sincerely hope you are not offended since I have learnt so much from you and would very much like to continue discussing Socionics with you but I think it is quite possible this might apply to you)

    http://www.socionics.ibc.com.ua/et/asimbieng.html#top


    Analytical method

    The concept of this method is very similar to type identification by tests and is based on a good knowledge and understanding of the four scales of preferences mentioned above. The elimination of one half of a scale immediately halves the number of possible combinations: from sixteen to eight, then from eight to four, from four to two and finally from two to one.

    Advantages of the method: flexible; can be used during conversation.

    Disadvantages of the method: requires some analytical abilities; reliability of results is directly proportional to experience.


    This appears fairly straight forward but in my opinion this is easily highly misleading method. Among other things because the fourth and sixth functions are often perceived as more troubling and thus more important than the second function, and therefore may be much more easily observable. Just try typing me based on this post. :wink:

    Visual identification

    This method is based on the principal that people of the same psychological type have similar body structures, facial expressions, facial structures and eyes. Socionics experts use the visual method of personality identification as a main method (wherever possible) and all other methods for assistance. We will focus more on this method later on in the section of Advanced Socionics.

    Advantages of the method: instant identification; the quickest and most reliable of all known methods; no need for personal involvement; allows remote identification and identification by photographs;

    Disadvantages of the method: practical application requires a great deal of experience and training; the identification process can be complicated by racial differences.


    This seems to be the most controversial method and despite of the author's claim not generally accepted. In my opinion this method does seem to work surprisingly well so I would not like to dismiss it out of hand. But neither do I have any evidence of its reliability. It all seems to be in the eye of the beholder and therefore I would use it only as one supporting method.

    Behaviour analysis

    This method works especially well with familiar people such as friends, family members, classmates, co-workers, etc. This method is based on long term observations of a person's behaviour in different situations. Results can then be compared with type profiles for a possible match. Someone who has memorised the type profiles will easily be able to notice prominent aspects in other's behaviour that will help them to relate people to one of the sixteen types. People's reactions, especially in unusual and extraordinary situations, make this method quite reliable.

    Advantages of the method: quite reliable; suitable for beginners.

    Disadvantages of the method: good knowledge of the subject to be identified is required.


    This method requires that the descriptions are highly reliable. Do people of the same type always behave in sufficiently similar fashion to make identification based on type descriptions possible? In my opinion not. Having said that often this method does work fairly well, as I wrote earlier I think the Gulenko's descriptions seem to correspond surprisingly well to the behaviour of people in real life. Some people still seem to be much easier to type than others. There are cultural differences, gender roles, different life histories, sometimes very different subtypes and personality disorders, all of which can cause people of the same type to behave in such different ways that typing people correctly can be very difficult indeed. And how do you reach an agreement if people disagree - as they often tend to do?

    Relative method

    This method is based on the recognition of the type of relations between a person whose type has been identified and a person whose type is unknown. Using the formula: TYPE1 + TYPE2 = RELATIONS we can calculate the identity of the unknown type if one type is known and the relationship between the two has also been recognised.

    Advantages of the method: very useful for checking the accuracy of type identification results.

    Disadvantages of the method: requires experience; not very practical.


    This method does obviously have its limitations but I think it could and even should be used much more than currently seems to be the case. Sometimes for example when meeting a new circle of friends it feels almost as if people are a bunch of random pieces in a puzzle. First you can not recognize any types but then suddenly you see the big picture emerging and the various types and relationships seem to fall into their places. Crosschecking the types and relationships can then provide a reasonably accurate method of verification - usually lacking even in Socionics.

    Vocabulary method

    This method is not used widely yet. The idea of the method is to recognise different types of people by their use of different vocabularies, phrases and speech. For the practical utilisation of this method, it is necessary to be able to participate and observe simultaneously during conversation.

    Advantages of the method: quite accurate and relatively quick; allows remote identification (by telephone, Internet IRC, etc.)

    Disadvantages of the method: requires a lot of training; difficult to apply in a multilingual environment.


    Jimmy Cartrette seems to be working on this method. I think it definetily has potential but it does seem very difficult to perfect.

    Other methods

    A number of other methods for psychological type identification can be created. For example, someone who understands and can recognise Quadrable spirits in people's intentions and actions can use this as a method of identifying the Quadrable to which the person belongs. This will leave only four type choices, dramatically simplifying type identification. To conclude, studying and observing any feature that varies from type to type can become a useful instrument in the psychological type identification process.


    Sometimes the "Quadrable spirits" do seem quite real but unfortunately this method generally seems too difficult for me.
    Personally I think that analyzing the way people use different functions could be a surprisingly effective method but there does not seem to be a generally accepted and sufficiently reliable theory of functions to rely on. Do you think one could be developed? Do you think it is realistic to expect a method of typing which would rely on brain scans or other objective non-human methods?
    What other methods can be used?

    I know I come across as awfully pedantic but the types seem to manifest themselves in so many ways that I am quite confident they must be based on some fundamental physiological differences between humans. Yet as things currently stand there does not seem to be a way to verify the correctness of typing in a properly scientifical manner and it is all too easy to dismiss Socionics as yet another crackpot theory.[/i]

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    MysticSonic's Avatar
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    Based on one of your posts earlier, I can say you're an INFP. :roll:

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Based on one of your posts earlier, I can say you're an INFP. :roll:
    and based on google research, you're an intj :wink:

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    I am, am I? Would you mind pointing out to me how your "google research" helped you come to such a conclusion?

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    Why, yes, yes it is. Do you perhaps have a slight case of dyslexia?

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    I assumed that was INTP MBTI, and intj socionics...if thats what you're talking about

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    Are you making this inference from the type that is actually listed, or my Oldham style?

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    Default Lytov

    You do not listen to Dimitriy Lytov, russian socionika people knows he bullshit!

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    Ignore that post, dear god.

    I was aware that, although the descriptions differ between the discription of introverted types, the methods by which one comes to the conculsion of one's "preference" scale using MBTI questionarres is a valid method to use to determine one's MBTI type.

    Edit-Wait a minute, I know I have the right link around here somewhere.

    http://www.socionics.com/advan/mbti.htm

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    from the listed intp and the oldham style, because mbti intp is socionics intj type, with introverted thinking. am I right or wrong?

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    Well, I scored INTP on both questionarres so I guess basically "assumed" that they were both scalling the same preferences, and I "thought" I had read what obviously isn't there, so.....yeah.

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    Ah! Here it is! It's from the Q&A section of www.socionics.com.

    "'I don't understand the difference between introverted J/P types in socionics and MBTI. My MBTI type is INFJ, so you're saying that my socionics type is INFp? '

    Not necessarily. If your type is obtained via either MBTI or Keirsey Temperament Sorter or any other type test (assuming that psychometric testing is 100% accurate), it should fully correspond with Socionics type. The "manufactured" MBTI type, which is not obtained via questionnaire but via so called "type dynamics" modelling, differs from Socionics type. How and why it is different you can find here."

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    well here's the deal on that(i had the same problem). the intp in mbti as defined as introverted thinking, extraverted intuition. the intj in socionics is defined as introverted thinking, extraverted intuition. the problem is the tests, the j/p preference is really rediculous. It's such a difficult question, I know my type and still don't know what to put(I use both, judging for more internal planning and perception for response to external events). It's really confusing, as people come out with the j/p reversed a lot of the time.
    this is really a problem, because introverted thinking/extraverted intuition type is alot different from introverted intuition/extraverted thinking. they really should have adapting tests so once they look for certain functions (like introverted thinking) instead of determining the i/e s/n t/f and then doing a stupid j/p question, which nobody answers right.

    I just kinda assumed that you looked at the intp descriptions for mbti out there and found it fit better than the intj descriptions out there. a big questions: do you feel confident in yourself alot(if not, intj socionics, intp mbti, if so, intj mbti intp socionics).

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    Confident in what? I don't remember reading any Socionic description of the INTp that said it's self-confident.

    Edit-You also have to remember the fact that the last two functions in MBTI DO directly correspond with Socionics, thus making a "half way type", so to speak.

    Example: Functional Analysis of the MBTI INTP: Ti,Ne,Si,Fe; Socionic INTp: Ni,Te,Si,Fe....unconscious functions....

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Confident in what? I don't remember reading any Socionic description of the INTp that said it's self-confident.

    Edit-You also have to remember the fact that the last two functions in MBTI DO directly correspond with Socionics, thus making a "half way type", so to speak.

    Example: Functional Analysis of the MBTI INTP: Ti,Ne,Si,Fe; Socionic INTp: Ni,Te,Si,Fe....unconscious functions....
    I think the problem here is the MBTI's functions describe the ego functions and then the superid fuctions...these are the four functions of their system. this is how jung described the functions he found.
    Each of us is predisposed to develop
    one or the other of each of these pairs
    of opposites and posit them in our
    personality, while the opposite functions,
    which are rejected, are relegated
    to shadow status as inferior functions.
    These, then, add to the potential of
    the undeveloped self along with the
    inferior attitude in the shadow.

    the shadow in jungian psychology is in the unconscious.
    so in mbti, function 1,2 = function 1,2 in model a, function 3,4 = functions 5,6 in model a. so intj in socionics is Ti,Ne,Si,Fe, just like INTP in mbti.
    So they really are the same functions and the same type. Just reversed on the J/P axis in the name.
    maybe you're getting the function analysis from socionics.com? I don't know why he decided to use the first four functions of model a, maybe to show conscious strengths and problems, not unconscious ones. I think that is just that site tho. I meant intj socionics have less confidence, especially in social situations. I've read that intj socionics has the least confidence of all types and intp socionics has the most...

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    I've faced the same problem when I've been determining my type.
    A lot of tests I've passed, mostly in Russian, told me I'm an INTP.
    That was because the questions on judging/perceiving (or rationality/irrationality as we prefer to call it in Russia) are really hard to formulate. At first I was confident in my inclination to P, but it was until I got familiar with model A and started analysing different manifestations of functions. The two types are really different.
    Actually (from my intj-Analyst point of view) it's better to forget about MBTI when determining socionics type. The two systems are different and the P/J problem is one of those differencies. The is no strict conversion INTP MBTi -> INTj socionics).
    Also, the conscious functions are much more important than unconscious, because they are better controlled and much more important for an individual, they form the basis for personality development. Unconscious functions are much easier to ignore, they are working in "background" mostly. The weak unconscious functions is where individual waits the information from outside, from other people.
    For INTp we have
    strong conscious functions: base Ni (perception of time), creative Te (profit, rationality)
    weak conscious functions: role Si (comfortable surrounding, food, clothes)
    and the hidden agenda Fe (emotions).
    INTp's emotions and mood can be their point of doubt an trouble, because they find it difficult to express. They don't like to talk about mood issues, when they are troubled by strong emotions expressed by others their face becomes still and they are in some kind of "trance" (bad one, because they don't know how to react adequately). Being calm is one of their values.
    For INTj
    strong conscious: base Ti (systems, structures), creative Ne (possibilities, improvements)
    weak conscious: role Fi (relationships), hidden agenda Se (power, strength, leadership).
    The point of problems here is the inability to adequately fight for your rights. The street fights, bullying and so on are really hard to handle. The money issues can be difficult too. INTj may have problems asking other people for something and forcing them to return debts, for example. Still there is some hidden need for leadership sometimes. The most comfortable situstion for INTj is when nothing ithreatens him and he doesn't have to act harshly and to influence people. That is "calmness" of other kind.
    On the other hand, emotions doesn't bother INTj - he will not express a lot of them himself, but will appreciate the expression of strong emotions by others - it gives him some kind of "energy".
    Ok, thats all for now ).

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    I was aware that it was the sixth function that's the type's hidden agenda, not the fourth.

    "'Some explanation regarding the 4th function, the inferior one, is needed. According to your model, for myself - an ENTP - it is Fi, introverted feeling. Which was really straight to the weakest point - my hidden agenda, so true, is to be loved. (Infact, it helped me decide, accurately, that i have ENTP and not ENFP type). Yet, the "classic" function preference is totally different! It puts ENTP as Ne Ti Fe Si, i.e the inferior one is introverted sensing. So, why is Socionics different in this critical point? Why is the third/fourth function switched in your model? Isn't it one of the basics of function preference - 3rd function is the opposite of the 2nd?'

    For the last time - Socionics is not MBTI! Here is the Socionics modelling for the Intuitive-Logical Extratim a.k.a. ILE a.k.a. ENTP using symbols: ; not using symbols: NeTi; graphical representations:




    Also, ENTP's hidden agenda is Fe not Fi."

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    Sorry, I messed up the terms.
    I was analyzing the conscious functions, and forgot name for the fourth - weak mental function - inferior as you called it. I called it the hidden agenda. In russian it is called the "the point of least resistance" or the "painful" function.
    Person understands the need for actions with the 4-th function, but they are very hard to perform and usually not adequate in the situation. The inability to act with the 4-th function causes unpleasant feeling that you are inferior to other people who can do it.
    Actually, "to be loved" is usually mentioned with the Fi aspect.
    ENTP needs to be loved, but he doesn't know any effective methods to make people love him. For example, he can make a lot of friends, but he is always very unsure of how all of them think of him, do they like him or not. Only people very close to him can hear him talking about his doubts and uncertainty in relationships, the person usually tries to minimize actions on their 4-th function.

    As for the model, I'll tell you how it is commonly in Russia. With corrseponding ENTP functions.
    conscious functions (or mental functions)
    1 - strong mental acceptive - base - Ne
    2 - strong mental productive - creative - Ti
    3 - weak mental acceptive - role - Se
    4 - weak mental productive - inferior or the point of least resistance - Fi
    subconscious functions (or vital functions)
    5 - weak vital acceptive - dual-seeking or suggestable function - Si
    6 - weak vital productiv - hidden agenda, activation or estimating function - Fe
    7 - strong vital acceptive - bounding function - Ni
    8 - strong vital productive - background function - Te

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    The purpose of theory is to predict the future.
    Theory is validated by how well it explains the past.
    The predictive nature of theory is dependent upon how well the future reflects the past data selected for validation. The more the future differs from the past, the greater uncertainty surrounds the prediction.


    A theory has only the alternative of
    being right or wrong. A model has a
    third possibility - it
    may be right but irrelevant.
    •Manfred Eigen

    http://www.quotemeonit.com/theory.html

    Why is typing people so very difficult even with these wonderful theories?

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    Society, social norms, and pressures, are what make typing a person so difficult.

    On a side note-The only thing I've really ever been confident in are my beliefs.

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    The last two functions of introverted types in MBTI cannot correspond with the superid functions for the simple reason that, seeing as how extraverted types directly correspond with their Socionic counter parts, and the last third and fourth functions are conscious, then the last two introverted functions of the MBTI type must be conscious otherwise, the type analysis of the MBTI system would contain a kind of on-off, conscious-unconscious third and fourth functions within the system.

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    Forgot to log in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    The last two functions of introverted types in MBTI cannot correspond with the superid functions for the simple reason that, seeing as how extraverted types directly correspond with their Socionic counter parts, and the last third and fourth functions are conscious, then the last two introverted functions of the MBTI type must be conscious otherwise, the type analysis of the MBTI system would contain a kind of on-off, conscious-unconscious third and fourth functions within the system.
    I'm sorry I still can't grasp everything you are saying... As I understood it, both Socionics and MBTI's model are describing the same actual 'types' themselves, the types do not differ. They just test and describe them differently, and have a bit different nomenclature. Can you reference where you're getting the MBTI's extravert third and fourth functions are conscious?

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    It's as simple as this, extraverted MBTI types have a so called "direct correlation" to their Socionic counterpart, thus one must assume the order of the functions to be the same between them, thus one must also assume that the last two functions in the MBTI type of any type must be conscious, albeit part of the super-ego.

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    Gah! I appologize, I'm not at my home computer, and ignorantly assume I'm logged in at this computer.

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    I don't think the super-ego or id functions are defined in MBTI(or by Jung), only the ego and superid. These are 1,2 and 5,6 functions in socionics...remember, both MBTI and Socionics describe the same exact Jungian types, just differently. Do you have links for the third and fourth functions in mbti being conscious?

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    Look, let me put it this way.

    ENTP's functions: Ne, Ti, Se, Fi

    Now, this is true with both systems, and, obviously, since there is a direct correlation between the two types, the last two functions must be the super ego functions within the MBTI system. It's just the super-id and id that the MBTI system doesn't delve into all that deeply.

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    but according to entp functional analysis in mbti, it's Ne, Ti, Si, Fe. Where are you getting the Ne, Ti, Se, Fi from?

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    Wow....sorry. Let's pretend this discussion never happened.

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