More than one person

[Minde]

or

Of Knights and Fair Maidens


The first two people are a brother-sister pair. I like them very, very much and I really enjoy being around them. They make me happy. When around them, I tend to think of Peter Pan, Robin Hood, and King Arthur and similar legends and children's tales.

Anna wears ribbons in her hair and likes to twirl around the field reciting Shakespeare. She's got an excellent memory for recitation. Sometimes she'll come up and start speaking to me in poems. Or, she'll take my face in her hands, look into my eyes and tell me what they look like (I think it was green leaves in a puddle, or something like that). She's a good story teller, too, with a flair for the cutely funny and the romantic fairy tale.

She has solid opinions on right and wrong and likes to put such concepts in her own words. She thinks things like that through thoroughly and comes to her own conclusions (which I find quite compatible with my own).

She is not competitive and does not play any sports.

Andrew likes to laugh and be silly. He's slightly louder and likes being in front of people more. He's perfectly comfortable in the center of attention. Anna isn't as much like that, though she doesn't mind it too much.

I think he's making himself into a good leader. He takes initiative and encourages the people around him to better themselves and take action toward doing good. He also likes to think and talk about deeper stuff, like Anna does.

He's retained a child’s imagination. He has great fun playing with younger kids. The other day I was sitting where I work, doing normal work-type stuff. Suddenly one of the doors opens and he quickly crouches into the room, a cowboy hat on his head and a broken BB gun in his hand. "Shhh," he loudly whispers at me as he takes a sniper's position behind a chair. "They're after me!" Then he leaves as he came. A minute later, two of the cook's kids saunter into the room, also dressed in hats and bandanas, carrying toy pistols and guns. I ask them what they're doing. "We're looking for Andrew. He's running from the law." "Are you the law?" I ask, noticing the shiny badge on one of the boy's shirts. "Yep," he somberly nods. Later, at lunch, Andrew sat down next to me with an apology. "Please 'scuse me, ma'am. My mother done told me not to bring guns to the dinner table, but this here's an emergency." He props the BB gun next to him and drawls, "Please pass the potatoes." There weren't even any kids around.

I've watched the two of them have complete arguments right in front of me. For example, during one conversation, Anna started asking a question that Andrew thought inappropriate (he felt it was too much like gossip). He poked her in the shoulder, "Shh, don't! No." "Hey, I was just -" "No, don’t ask!" They went back and forth for a little, with Anna expressing some hurt. She explained her innocence in the matter, Andrew apologized for misunderstanding her intent, and they hugged. Despite them expressing what they were thinking and how they were feeling, it never once got heated or very distressing.

Their conversations intermingle serious and silly. They even have arguments in a lighthearted manner. I've never once seen them leave a serious or semi-serious disagreement unresolved. They'll talk it out right then and there and it usually ends in a hug and an "I love you" and "I love you, too."

They're both physically affectionate, especially with each other. They'll put their arms around the other, Andrew will lean his head on Anna's shoulder, Anna will sit on his lap occasionally, etc. They like to reach out and touch. With other people, Andrew is not as affectionate, but I think that's because of cultural taboos. For example, Anna touches me frequently; Andrew only occasionally pats me on the shoulder or head. He knows he has to be careful not to send wrong messages.

When I spoke of chivalry awhile ago, Andrew was one of those I was thinking of.

Andrew has a hard time focusing on work, sometimes. He's highly distractible. When we’re working on something together, I’m usually the one pulling us back to the topic at hand. "I predict," he said to me last night, "you're about to say something on topic, or responsible, or…" He was right. Whereas I can help pull him back to work, he does a splendid job of entertaining me and pulling me out of any ruts I'm in.

I'm telling a lot of stories in this description because I can't think of any other way to accurately describe them.

The groups they inspire/form around themselves are happy-go-lucky, open and welcoming to anyone who wants to be there. The conversations go all over the place, all at once it seems sometimes. If there's a central topic, we tend to dance around it, stepping on it briefly every now and then, then skipping off to something related (or not so related), then twirling back again, but always with that central topic as our base. And it's rare for there not to be smiling and laughing.

I'll talk more about the other people who hang out with them later.

[Expat]

Andrew - ENTp
Anna - ENFp

[Gilly]

Alpha is ALL over this.

I get a strong ESE vibe from Andrew.

As for Anna...I dunno, she feels more like an Fe type IMO, but I could see IEE.

Overall, what you say about them reminds me of my sister (EII) and her husband (ESE); the "fairy tale" bit in particular rings true.

[Expat]

Anna wears ribbons in her hair and likes to twirl around the field reciting Shakespeare. She's got an excellent memory for recitation. Sometimes she'll come up and start speaking to me in poems. Or, she'll take my face in her hands, look into my eyes and tell me what they look like (I think it was green leaves in a puddle, or something like that). She's a good story teller, too, with a flair for the cutely funny and the romantic fairy tale.

This seems behavior.

She has solid opinions on right and wrong and likes to put such concepts in her own words. She thinks things like that through thoroughly and comes to her own conclusions (which I find quite compatible with my own).

Coming from you, this seems to suggest like yourself, and the same quadra.

She is not competitive and does not play any sports.

A point for intuition and low focus on or even .

Andrew likes to laugh and be silly. He's slightly louder and likes being in front of people more. He's perfectly comfortable in the center of attention. Anna isn't as much like that, though she doesn't mind it too much.

That's another hint for them being different quadras -- he craves , she doesn't, but neither does she have problem with it. That was what got me thinking ENTp-ENFp.

I think he's making himself into a good leader. He takes initiative and encourages the people around him to better themselves and take action toward doing good. He also likes to think and talk about deeper stuff, like Anna does.

Extrovert, but it does not say much else.

He's retained a child’s imagination. He has great fun playing with younger kids. The other day I was sitting where I work, doing normal work-type stuff. Suddenly one of the doors opens and he quickly crouches into the room, a cowboy hat on his head and a broken BB gun in his hand. "Shhh," he loudly whispers at me as he takes a sniper's position behind a chair. "They're after me!" Then he leaves as he came. A minute later, two of the cook's kids saunter into the room, also dressed in hats and bandanas, carrying toy pistols and guns. I ask them what they're doing. "We're looking for Andrew. He's running from the law." "Are you the law?" I ask, noticing the shiny badge on one of the boy's shirts. "Yep," he somberly nods. Later, at lunch, Andrew sat down next to me with an apology. "Please 'scuse me, ma'am. My mother done told me not to bring guns to the dinner table, but this here's an emergency." He props the BB gun next to him and drawls, "Please pass the potatoes." There weren't even any kids around.

This is stereotypical Alpha behavior, imo typically ENTp.

I've watched the two of them have complete arguments right in front of me. For example, during one conversation, Anna started asking a question that Andrew thought inappropriate (he felt it was too much like gossip). He poked her in the shoulder, "Shh, don't! No." "Hey, I was just -" "No, don’t ask!" They went back and forth for a little, with Anna expressing some hurt. She explained her innocence in the matter, Andrew apologized for misunderstanding her intent, and they hugged. Despite them expressing what they were thinking and how they were feeling, it never once got heated or very distressing.

Another suggestion that they are similar but of different quadras.

Their conversations intermingle serious and silly. They even have arguments in a lighthearted manner. I've never once seen them leave a serious or semi-serious disagreement unresolved. They'll talk it out right then and there and it usually ends in a hug and an "I love you" and "I love you, too."

It's consistent with ENTp-ENFp imo.

They're both physically affectionate, especially with each other. They'll put their arms around the other, Andrew will lean his head on Anna's shoulder, Anna will sit on his lap occasionally, etc. They like to reach out and touch. With other people, Andrew is not as affectionate, but I think that's because of cultural taboos. For example, Anna touches me frequently; Andrew only occasionally pats me on the shoulder or head. He knows he has to be careful not to send wrong messages.

They both value and get if from each other, as if they were each other's duals, but are less confident with others, so it seems. If hey are very physical with most people, that would go against Ne EP for them.


When I spoke of chivalry awhile ago, Andrew was one of those I was thinking of.

Andrew has a hard time focusing on work, sometimes. He's highly distractible. When we’re working on something together, I’m usually the one pulling us back to the topic at hand. "I predict," he said to me last night, "you're about to say something on topic, or responsible, or…" He was right. Whereas I can help pull him back to work, he does a splendid job of entertaining me and pulling me out of any ruts I'm in.

Ne EP, or intuitive generally. That's a strong argument against ESFj.

The groups they inspire/form around themselves are happy-go-lucky, open and welcoming to anyone who wants to be there. The conversations go all over the place, all at once it seems sometimes. If there's a central topic, we tend to dance around it, stepping on it briefly every now and then, then skipping off to something related (or not so related), then twirling back again, but always with that central topic as our base. And it's rare for there not to be smiling and laughing.

That is typical Alpha group behavior, but if one of them is Alpha and the other a strong Ne Delta, it could work, too.

I think ENTp-ENFp work best, but they could both be ENTps. What comes most from your description is . However, I think you'd see your supervisors differently.

[Minde]

Alpha is ALL over this.

I get a strong ESE vibe from Andrew.

As for Anna...I dunno, she feels more like an Fe type IMO, but I could see IEE.

Overall, what you say about them reminds me of my sister (EII) and her husband (ESE); the "fairy tale" bit in particular rings true.

What about Andrew makes you say ESE?

[Minde]

She has solid opinions on right and wrong and likes to put such concepts in her own words. She thinks things like that through thoroughly and comes to her own conclusions (which I find quite compatible with my own).

Coming from you, this seems to suggest like yourself, and the same quadra.

I forgot to say that Andrew does this, too. They are slightly different in how they go about it, though. Anna is more likely to discuss things as a way to order her thoughts. She often comes to conclusions or gets ideas after talking with people. Andrew is more likely, at least in my experience, to just say what his opinions and thoughts are. His thoughts seem to be ordered before he displays them. I don't know if that's relevant.

I like how he talks about and explains things. He uses analogies, like I tend to do.

In any case, they are two of my favorite people to have Bible studies or other philosophical or theological discussions with. Or any discussion, really. They have about the same level of knowledge (more, perhaps) than I. They appreciate the same things I do. They have original ideas and thoughts - well, original compared to the rest of the current world. I think, a lot of it has already been thought by those in previous eras. But they don't say things just because it’s been said. They are… distinct.

They are kind, loving, joyful, open, and honest people. I think that has more to do with character than personality, though, so perhaps I should not focus so much on that.

We also have a similar background and upbringing, which might be confusing me a little.

She is not competitive and does not play any sports.

A point for intuition and low focus on or even .

Andrew doesn't particularly like sports, either. My ESFj calls him feminine sometimes (which I get mad at her for).

Andrew likes to laugh and be silly. He's slightly louder and likes being in front of people more. He's perfectly comfortable in the center of attention. Anna isn't as much like that, though she doesn't mind it too much.

That's another hint for them being different quadras -- he craves , she doesn't, but neither does she have problem with it. That was what got me thinking ENTp-ENFp.

He is definitely more inclined toward being up front and center. He likes making people laugh. He said something the other day about how there needs to be somebody willing to take the fall so people can laugh, that it's a form of loving sacrifice. (Though I don't think it's really a painful sacrifice for him - he has too much fun.)

Extrovert, but it does not say much else.

Something that I forgot to mention earlier - Andrew has more, um, nervous energy than Anna. He jumps around more, gesticulates more, and is more slapstick.

This is stereotypical Alpha behavior, imo typically ENTp.

The problem I have with ENTp is that he doesn't get under my skin like ENTps tend to. And, I trust him.

They both value and get if from each other, as if they were each other's duals, but are less confident with others, so it seems. If hey are very physical with most people, that would go against Ne EP for them.

No, not with most people. Only people they feel close to. Although, like I said, I think Andrew would be slightly more physically affectionate with people if he didn't feel he had to be careful.

I think ENTp-ENFp work best, but they could both be ENTps. What comes most from your description is . However, I think you'd see your supervisors differently.

Don't you mean supervisees?

[Expat]

Andrew doesn't particularly like sports, either. My ESFj calls him feminine sometimes (which I get mad at her for).

Another point against ESFj imo.

The problem I have with ENTp is that he doesn't get under my skin like ENTps tend to. And, I trust him.

Perhaps his a very Ne ENFp then, or still Ne ENTp similar to ENFp.

Don't you mean supervisees?

I do

[Minde]

For fun, a couple of temporary VIs.

EDIT: Yep, they were temporary.

[Expat]

I could see Anna as either ESFj or ENFp from the pictures.

Andrew, as either ENTp or ENFp.

Perhaps they are two ENFps, only Andrew is way more into . Ne EP is obvious imo.

[Gilly]

After that analysis and the pictures, I can definitely see IEE-ILE.

[Minde]

Ben

He's a good actor and singer. From what I understand, he's been the lead in most of his school plays and musicals. Despite his talent, he's not hugely ambitious. He'll take the success and go with it, but it doesn't seem like he's fervently seeking it. It's the same with being the center of attention; he doesn't seem to crave it, but he's not uncomfortable in it.

His nickname for himself is the Warrior Poet. I'm not so sure about the applicability of the "Warrior" part, unless you count it to mean a love for "adventure." He's got an active imagination, and he leads a band of "pirates" who go on all sorts of escapades. For example, last year a bunch of us spend some days at the beach, and he and a few others made a "pirate cave" which they decorated, built a fire, and told stories in. In reality, he's not very violent at all. Doesn't even like to play sports. Actually, I think "Warrior" might be more of a reference to the knightly attitudes I've mentioned before than anything else. "Poet" works better, I think. He likes reading it, and he'll often come in to where Andrew and Andrew's partner (I'll describe him later) are working and read them a poem or two. He'll hand-write out poems for Andrew to put on the wall or ceiling of the room he's working in. He writes, too, but is very self-conscious about it, so I've never read any of them.

He's responsible, a good worker, and works well with kids of all ages. I find him quite agreeable and have nothing to complain about him except that we haven't connected yet as well as I'd like. He gets along excellently with Anna and Andrew, though.

I found a couple of YouTube videos of him. They might not be the best for VI, because one is of him pretending, and the other is of him singing, but it might be interesting to see what they reveal.

Here's him as Captain Cutty.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr5_Z3Ur3Us[/youtube]

This one is of him singing, though he talks a little, too, for the first minute.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp9cV1bUtF8[/youtube]

[Expat]

Ben's a Ne-Si quadra ethical introvert.

Either ISFp or INFj. ISFp is much more likely. He connects to Andrew and Anna via Ne.

Do you sometimes get the feeling you are the most "adult" in relation to all of them, regardless of the actual ages?

[Minde]

Ben's a Ne-Si quadra ethical introvert.

Either ISFp or INFj. ISFp is much more likely. He connects to Andrew and Anna via Ne.

Hm, an Si caregiver? Now that you mention it, that does make some sense, especially as I recall something he did a couple of weeks ago. Andrew, his partner, and I were working late one night and Ben brought us all hot water and a choice of teas (none of us drinks coffee). He asked us all how we were doing, poured the tea for us, read us a couple of poems, chatted quietly for a little, patted us all on the head, then left us to continue working. Does that fit with an ISFp?

Do you sometimes get the feeling you are the most "adult" in relation to all of them, regardless of the actual ages?

In some ways, yes. They are more easily able to slip into a waking Neverland, the realm of a child's imagination. Ben and Andrew more so than Anna, though. The two boys tend to act it out more. I myself find it harder to enter their Neverland. As much as I enjoy it, I find it easier to sit and watch them so I can keep my head and watch out for the more practical and "real" sides of life. Although, they've all survived thus far healthily and happily, so perhaps I am the one losing out by not being able to let go and play.

They are childlike, but not childish, I should say. In many other ways they are much more mature than most their age.

[Minde]

Hm, an Si caregiver? Now that you mention it, that does make some sense, especially as I recall something he did a couple of weeks ago. Andrew, his partner, and I were working late one night and Ben brought us all hot water and a choice of teas (none of us drinks coffee). He asked us all how we were doing, poured the tea for us, read us a couple of poems, chatted quietly for a little, patted us all on the head, then left us to continue working. Does that fit with an ISFp?

Well?

[Expat]

Hm, an Si caregiver? Now that you mention it, that does make some sense, especially as I recall something he did a couple of weeks ago. Andrew, his partner, and I were working late one night and Ben brought us all hot water and a choice of teas (none of us drinks coffee). He asked us all how we were doing, poured the tea for us, read us a couple of poems, chatted quietly for a little, patted us all on the head, then left us to continue working. Does that fit with an ISFp?

Well?

It fits perfectly an ISFp, although of course other types could do that.

[Minde]

It fits perfectly an ISFp, although of course other types could do that.

Of course. Thank you for answering my question.

I can easily see how he'd be in an Ne-Si quadra, but how did you determine the introversion and ethics?

[Expat]

I can easily see how he'd be in an Ne-Si quadra, but how did you determine the introversion and ethics?

Introversion was most clear from the "Captain" video -- it doesn't matter that he's pretending. What is clear is that he's totally natural and comfortable sitting there relaxed without moving one muscle of his body while talking to the camera. Unless you tell me specifically that that's not his usual mode, I think introversion is very likely. The same goes for the video singing, but less clearly. Also, what you said suggests a certain passivity, not a need to get things going, which again suggests introversion.

As for ethics, well, a combination of VI and just how his general personality comes across. What would be the other possibilities? INTj, ISTp? Neither is impossible, of course, but being a natural singer and actor and dealing with children suggests confidence in , so I think ISFp or INFj is more likely.

Between the two, I just get far more an ISFp vibe from him from your general description and from VI than INFj.

Also, I think it's possible that the three of them are all Alphas and you're the only Delta, so two ENTps and one ISFp. That would make sense.

[Minde]

Introversion was most clear from the "Captain" video -- it doesn't matter that he's pretending. What is clear is that he's totally natural and comfortable sitting there relaxed without moving one muscle of his body while talking to the camera. Unless you tell me specifically that that's not his usual mode, I think introversion is very likely. The same goes for the video singing, but less clearly. Also, what you said suggests a certain passivity, not a need to get things going, which again suggests introversion.

That was a quieter song with just one person accompanying him. Usually, he's got a bigger band around him and is singing more upbeat songs. Then he moves around quite a bit more, though not in an exhibitionist way, more to the beat of the music.

As far as how he moves in other situations – yeah, he generally seems pretty relaxed. He gets animated when in front of a group. I think that's because he feels it's expected of him, though, instead of being driven to it. At least, that's the impression I get. And, yet, he's still quite the natural at it. Much, much, much better in front of people than me. Than most people, even.

Also, I think it's possible that the three of them are all Alphas and you're the only Delta, so two ENTps and one ISFp. That would make sense.

Yes, possibly. I asked Andrew if he thought his and Anna's personalities were similar and he said yes. Then I asked him about their differences and he said that Anna's more emotional than him and that she's more proactive than he is. She's more likely to go in somewhere and say, "This needs to be fixed," while he's more likely to go in and say, "Oh, that's interesting." He says that I'm like him in that regard, too.

[Minde]

"Zeppo"

He's the one accompanying Ben in the second video above.

He's quite the complex character. My understanding of him has progressed quite a bit. When I first met him a couple of years ago, I thought he was immature, a flirt, irresponsible, and a bit shallow. He has become more responsible and I have seen him grow in that area, but I think he still comes across like that to a lot of people, particularly those who don't know him well. Some see him as arrogant, too.

There's so much more to him, though, as I'm slowly discovering. For example, last year he took a vow of silence for one day, then wrote an essay on his experience. The essay didn’t really talk about his actual experiences (i.e. "people looked at me funny"), but about silence and its value, how it ties in with our spiritual lives. I thought it was very well written, which I don't often think of what people write, especially if they're still in high school. It was deep, thoughtful, and had some beautiful phrasing.

About his flirting ways - I think that's more just how he naturally interacts with people rather than the sort of deceitful or selfish drawing in that some people do, if that makes sense. He maintains longer eye contact. He'll come up and hug you or wrap his arm around your shoulders (well, not me - I think I'm too unapproachable). With certain people he'll communicate via taps (like on the head, nose, arm, etc.) and facial expressions. In relaxed circumstances, he and Ben can be very physically affectionate - things like draping an arm around the other or sitting against each other, but it's never in a sexual way. Never. At all. They're both perfectly straight.

He and Ben get along very, very well. The two of them can slip into their Neverland together easily. Just this morning I heard them as they walked by casually talking in their pirate accents about something innocently piratey (I think it was the state of their swords or something like that).

He and Anna get along well, too. They don't have any romantic feelings for each other, but one could sometimes mistake their interactions as flirting and being romantic. For example, Zeppo will ask Anna to dance with him in the field (though I've never actually seen it), and the two of them have developed that touch-code I mentioned above.

He isn't as close to Andrew as the other two, but they get along fine.

In general, he's quiet and soft-spoken. As in, not loud, like our ESTp boss or Andrew and Anna. Ben's louder than him even. But he's definitely got his own independent personality. He'll go along doing his own thing more than follow the crowd.

Here's a video of him talking. The part in the middle where he blows the dandelion is typical of him, I think.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZBfzxaeQc[/youtube]

[Expat]

"Zeppo"

He's the one accompanying Ben in the second video above.

He's quite the complex character. My understanding of him has progressed quite a bit. When I first met him a couple of years ago, I thought he was immature, a flirt, irresponsible, and a bit shallow.

That already suggests IP and probably Fe, from your point of view.

He has become more responsible and I have seen him grow in that area, but I think he still comes across like that to a lot of people, particularly those who don't know him well. Some see him as arrogant, too.

Hmm. In which way?

There's so much more to him, though, as I'm slowly discovering. For example, last year he took a vow of silence for one day, then wrote an essay on his experience. The essay didn’t really talk about his actual experiences (i.e. "people looked at me funny"), but about silence and its value, how it ties in with our spiritual lives. I thought it was very well written, which I don't often think of what people write, especially if they're still in high school. It was deep, thoughtful, and had some beautiful phrasing.

Introvert, very clearly so.

About his flirting ways - I think that's more just how he naturally interacts with people rather than the sort of deceitful or selfish drawing in that some people do, if that makes sense.

That is stereotypical INFp behavior, but does not rule out other types.

He maintains longer eye contact. He'll come up and hug you or wrap his arm around your shoulders (well, not me - I think I'm too unapproachable). With certain people he'll communicate via taps (like on the head, nose, arm, etc.) and facial expressions. In relaxed circumstances, he and Ben can be very physically affectionate - things like draping an arm around the other or sitting against each other, but it's never in a sexual way. Never. At all. They're both perfectly straight.

That suggests Si which may indicate ISFp.

He and Ben get along very, very well. The two of them can slip into their Neverland together easily. Just this morning I heard them as they walked by casually talking in their pirate accents about something innocently piratey (I think it was the state of their swords or something like that).

So he's either Ne quadra or also has strong Ne as a Ni dominant would.

He and Anna get along well, too. They don't have any romantic feelings for each other, but one could sometimes mistake their interactions as flirting and being romantic. For example, Zeppo will ask Anna to dance with him in the field (though I've never actually seen it), and the two of them have developed that touch-code I mentioned above.

He isn't as close to Andrew as the other two, but they get along fine. [/quote]

That suggests that Andrew is the ENFp and Zeppo is an INFp, so it's the only relationship that's particularly difficult.

In general, he's quiet and soft-spoken. As in, not loud, like our ESTp boss or Andrew and Anna. Ben's louder than him even. But he's definitely got his own independent personality. He'll go along doing his own thing more than follow the crowd.

Here's a video of him talking. The part in the middle where he blows the dandelion is typical of him, I think.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZBfzxaeQc[/youtube]

Altogether I think INFp it is. I'd think that the dandelion-blowing thing is indicative of Ni, if typical.

[Joy]

I don't know about the dandelion guy, but I wouldn't assume he's Ni from that dandelion thing. It looked like he was trying to be cute or something. I dunno. (Not that he's not Ni, but I just don't get Ni from the way he did that or the fact that he did it at all.)

The other guy, the captain or whatever, reminds me a bit of my son's day care teacher who I believe to be ISFp. (I could be wrong though.)

[Minde]

He has become more responsible and I have seen him grow in that area, but I think he still comes across like that to a lot of people, particularly those who don't know him well. Some see him as arrogant, too.

Hmm. In which way?

I'm not sure, exactly. That comment came from a girl I've described here before, Cheery, and some of the people she likes to hang out with. I think he comes across to them as thinking of himself as too cool, probably akin to how Joy thought the dandelion blowing was a bit pretentious. Perhaps he does have a small issue with that, but having observed him for a couple of years, I think it's more likely just how he naturally acts rather than a real superiority complex, like I've seen much more clearly in other people. Generally, from what my experience, too much arrogance is related to some internal off-centeredness, which I don't see much of in Zeppo.

He and Anna get along well, too. They don't have any romantic feelings for each other, but one could sometimes mistake their interactions as flirting and being romantic. For example, Zeppo will ask Anna to dance with him in the field (though I've never actually seen it), and the two of them have developed that touch-code I mentioned above.

He isn't as close to Andrew as the other two, but they get along fine.

That suggests that Andrew is the ENFp and Zeppo is an INFp, so it's the only relationship that's particularly difficult.

I get along well with Andrew. With Anna, while we love each other and I'm more affectionate with her, it's like there's a little tiny disconnect along the way. I think she values Fe a bit more, but that's just a guess.

Of the two of them, I think it would be harder for me to spend lots of close time with Zeppo than with Ben. Though he's a good guy and I value his contributions, I think there are too many things about him that would inadvertently annoy me. With Ben, while I'm still having trouble establishing a cord of connection (he tends to overlook me), at least it seems like it would be less uncomfortable.

[Minde]

Phobie said something interesting about Zeppo and Ben. He said that both of them hide their insecurities, so when they're with each other they feel like they can be more genuine and are more comfortable, letting down their guard, as opposed to when they're with other people. But they're both still trying to figure out how to grow up. That's one big reason why they get along so well.

Another thing I didn't mention about Zeppo is that he's not popular. Like I said, he often comes across as arrogant and immature. Whether it's true or not, he's built up a reputation. People don't hate him, but they tend to not let him too close. Honestly, I didn't really notice that, but it got pointed out to me and it makes sense.

[Minde]

The aforementioned Andrew's partner in labor - Jeremy.

We get along well, and I think he's a very sweet, gentlemanly boy-going-on-man. The only problem really is that we tend to run out of things to say to each other in a one-on-one conversation, unless there's something interesting to talk about in the environment or having to do with work.

My sister says he's the type of guy she'd marry, if that counts for anything.

Jeremy and Andrew get along and work very well together. They know each other's habits and quirks and can predict the other's behavior.

He seems a bit spacey to me. Sometimes he looks like he's not completely here. And, yet, he shows occasional signs of being very aware of his environment, especially people. More aware than me, that is, not necessarily more aware than the average person. I don't know, I guess his expression is often vacant, unless he's directly interacting with someone. And even then... his eyes still often remain emotionless or detached.

He can be very funny and is great at improvising. He's perfectly comfortable in front of people. His stage presence tends to be a bit dorky and bumbling, but sincere and good-hearted. He and Andrew will play off of each other, Andrew being the sharper, more talkative one and Jeremy being softer and more childlike but connecting better with the audience, eliciting their sympathies.

One of his strengths is his ability to relate to and connect with just about everybody. Everybody loves him, or at least likes him. I think he makes people feel important and valued as he talks with them. Unlike some types of friendly people who are friendly with everybody at once, which isn't a bad thing but tends to make me feel unimportant, he'll focus on the person he's talking to. He'll also sort of mirror them and their emotions. Little kids, like 2-7 yr olds, seem to like him a lot. There's one little boy who likes to sit on his shoulders or on one of his feet as he tries to walk. Jeremy's always very gentle with him. He's gentle with everybody, actually.

In a conversation he doesn't really talk a lot, unless it's another quiet person he's talking to (like me). Mostly he just smiles and nods and laughs at appropriate moments. Sometimes he'll ask a question or offer a supporting comment. Quick to listen, slow to speak.

I don't know if it's type related, but he's a terrible joke teller. He'll start, restart, mix up parts, restart again... The punch-line, when he finally reaches it, isn't nearly as funny as the process of getting there. Andrew especially gets a kick out of this particular... talent of Jeremy's.

He's tenderhearted and is prompt in offering sympathy in times of trouble, though it usually comes in the form of a facial expression and a pat on the shoulder instead of something that actually helps resolve the matter. I mean, he's quick to offer his aid or advice when he realizes it could be used, but it doesn't always seem to be the first thing to come to his mind.

Andrew and Jeremy like to make amateur movies together, with Andrew usually directing and Jeremy (and several of their siblings and friends) acting, and with both of them bringing in ideas and editing. So, because they've put a good amount of their work online, here's a couple of clips to give a VI of Jeremy and a sample of their type of humor.

Of the two of them, I think Jeremy might be the better editor. He's got a good sense of timing and an artist's touch.

Most of them are links to myspace, because that is where they keep most of their online videos and this forum doesn't support myspace videos. So you'll have to click on the link to see the video.

Uh, Jeremy being... clumsy.

The seventh episode in a pirate story. Jeremy's the one using the sword near the beginning. (Be warned: it's a bit silly.) EDIT: They make these pirate movies for the kids' program at their church.

Jeremy's one of the stars in this tale.

Though Jeremy isn't actually in this one, it was his idea and he directed and edited it. I think it's a good insight into his personality, what he notices and what he finds humorous.

Jeremy singing. He's showing a side of his personality that I don't see really, at least, not usually. Obviously, it's an act, but there's still a grain of truth in it. The sort of... hm, not sure what to call it. Anyway, it's a little different in flavor than the other ones.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gUIRRRNCgE[/youtube]

[UDP]

I can easily see how he'd be in an Ne-Si quadra, but how did you determine the introversion and ethics?

Introversion was most clear from the "Captain" video -- it doesn't matter that he's pretending. What is clear is that he's totally natural and comfortable sitting there relaxed without moving one muscle of his body while talking to the camera. Unless you tell me specifically that that's not his usual mode, I think introversion is very likely. The same goes for the video singing, but less clearly. Also, what you said suggests a certain passivity, not a need to get things going, which again suggests introversion.

Don't mean to divert here, but I was thinking of myself in this way. I can be fairly stable when I am 'relaxed', or just sitting and thinking. But whenever I am doing anything else - like in class, doing a workshop, at a meeting - I am moving, fidgeting. I often rock in chairs that lean back.

What about posture though. Sometimes I choose to be still, but I still feel energy going into my posture. I do not like fidgeting too much, like when I am making a speech or being filmed, as I think it can show a lack of focus. Composure.


Does that imply anything about temperament?

[Minde]

Does that imply anything about temperament?

I don't know, but funnily enough Ben's nickname is Fidget.

[Minde]

Ok, for your entertainment and VI - picture time. (This will disappear eventually.)

Jeremy playing in a game, with Ben in the background to the right - Jeremy posed like this for several seconds before I noticed him.


Ben and Jeremy on stage. Don't mind the guy in the middle.


Ben and Jeremy


Andrew and Jeremy


Ben, singing on the right, and on the left with the violin is Ghetto, who I described in another thread and who is probably ESTj.


Anna, in the red, in the process of squirting Zeppo, in the blue. Phobie (probably ISTj) is behind them, in the red shirt.


Jeremy and Phobie, unaware of my aim


Jeremy with some little people


Anna talking to Ben


Andrew

(And, yes, I took all of these.)

Hehe, I found a really old video of Andrew. Really old. I barely recognized him. For one, his face has changed quite a bit, but also now he's a bit more purposeful and confident in his movements and expressions. I guess you could say he's more polished and, therefore, expressive. But it's still got some of his mannerisms and humor. And, I found it funny.

This is some bloopers from Jeremy and Andrew's pirate series. It shows them not acting, which is probably better for typing. For clarity's sake, Andrew is the one sitting on the floor in the first scene and Jeremy is the one with the funny glasses and the white shirt.

This is a fairly recent, short clip of Anna, shipwrecked.

[Expat]

Phobie said something interesting about Zeppo and Ben. He said that both of them hide their insecurities, so when they're with each other they feel like they can be more genuine and are more comfortable, letting down their guard, as opposed to when they're with other people.

Yeah that sounds exactly what an ISTj would say.

[UDP]

Agreed.

[Minde]

Really? Why?

[Expat]

Well :

Phobie said something interesting about Zeppo and Ben. He said that both of them hide their insecurities, so when they're with each other they feel like they can be more genuine and are more comfortable, letting down their guard, as opposed to when they're with other people.

An ISTj might well say this because it's common for people to project onto others their own motivations - the "isn't everyone like that" assumption. So he's assuming / motivations - "hiding their insecurities" and "putting up a guard" on their part. With the certainty that dominant provides.

That is not to say that only ISTjs would say something like that, or that I would type him as ISTj based on that. But it is perfectly consistent with ISTj.

[Expat]

The aforementioned Andrew's partner in labor - Jeremy.

We get along well, and I think he's a very sweet, gentlemanly boy-going-on-man. The only problem really is that we tend to run out of things to say to each other in a one-on-one conversation, unless there's something interesting to talk about in the environment or having to do with work.

My sister says he's the type of guy she'd marry, if that counts for anything.

Jeremy and Andrew get along and work very well together. They know each other's habits and quirks and can predict the other's behavior.

He seems a bit spacey to me. Sometimes he looks like he's not completely here. And, yet, he shows occasional signs of being very aware of his environment, especially people. More aware than me, that is, not necessarily more aware than the average person. I don't know, I guess his expression is often vacant, unless he's directly interacting with someone. And even then... his eyes still often remain emotionless or detached.

He can be very funny and is great at improvising. He's perfectly comfortable in front of people. His stage presence tends to be a bit dorky and bumbling, but sincere and good-hearted. He and Andrew will play off of each other, Andrew being the sharper, more talkative one and Jeremy being softer and more childlike but connecting better with the audience, eliciting their sympathies.

From the video, I also thought that he was intuitive and has no problems with Fe. So, so far, very simplistically, some kind of NF, but ENTp would also be possible (apart from the relationships).

One of his strengths is his ability to relate to and connect with just about everybody. Everybody loves him, or at least likes him. I think he makes people feel important and valued as he talks with them. Unlike some types of friendly people who are friendly with everybody at once, which isn't a bad thing but tends to make me feel unimportant, he'll focus on the person he's talking to. He'll also sort of mirror them and their emotions. Little kids, like 2-7 yr olds, seem to like him a lot. There's one little boy who likes to sit on his shoulders or on one of his feet as he tries to walk. Jeremy's always very gentle with him. He's gentle with everybody, actually.

I'm starting to think ENFp.

In a conversation he doesn't really talk a lot, unless it's another quiet person he's talking to (like me). Mostly he just smiles and nods and laughs at appropriate moments. Sometimes he'll ask a question or offer a supporting comment. Quick to listen, slow to speak.

That would seem to go against ENFp stereotypes, but some can be like that, actually Rick and Kim for instance, depending on the other people around.

I don't know if it's type related, but he's a terrible joke teller. He'll start, restart, mix up parts, restart again... The punch-line, when he finally reaches it, isn't nearly as funny as the process of getting there. Andrew especially gets a kick out of this particular... talent of Jeremy's.

Could be many things - weak Ti, lower focus on Ni than Ne. More confidence on Fe than Te. Hard to say.

He's tenderhearted and is prompt in offering sympathy in times of trouble, though it usually comes in the form of a facial expression and a pat on the shoulder instead of something that actually helps resolve the matter. I mean, he's quick to offer his aid or advice when he realizes it could be used, but it doesn't always seem to be the first thing to come to his mind.

Seems a general ethical thing.

Jeremy singing. He's showing a side of his personality that I don't see really, at least, not usually. Obviously, it's an act, but there's still a grain of truth in it. The sort of... hm, not sure what to call it. Anyway, it's a little different in flavor than the other ones.

If I had no other evidence than that video, I'd have said any NF + perhaps ENTp, with ENFp most likely.

[Expat]

From the pictures, I'd again say ENFp for Jeremy. He even reminds me of Rick.

I'm starting to sound unoriginal but from the videos and pictures I begin to think that Anna, Andrew and Jeremy are all ENFps.

I see no reason to change ISFp for Ben.

Also, very broadly, I get the feeling that the whole children's camp is basically a Delta-Alpha kind of place, with the odd Beta thrown in, like the ESTp boss, Phobie and Zepp if INFp as I think he is.

I suspect that Gammas will be the rarest quadra there.

[leckysupport]

I have no idea where minde lives but I want to live there too.

[Minde]

An ISTj might well say this because it's common for people to project onto others their own motivations - the "isn't everyone like that" assumption. So he's assuming / motivations - "hiding their insecurities" and "putting up a guard" on their part. With the certainty that dominant provides.

That is not to say that only ISTjs would say something like that, or that I would type him as ISTj based on that. But it is perfectly consistent with ISTj.

Perfect. Thank you.

From the pictures, I'd again say ENFp for Jeremy. He even reminds me of Rick.

I'm starting to sound unoriginal but from the videos and pictures I begin to think that Anna, Andrew and Jeremy are all ENFps.

I find their company comforting and comfortable, so I can easily believe that they are at least of the same quadra. But I can see ENFp for all of them, too, at least in terms of the functions I can identify. So now I can say I know four ENFps (counting my sister). I think it's interesting to see how they can share the same personality type and yet be completely their own individual selves. It might be a good way to see what's socionically related and what isn't.

I see no reason to change ISFp for Ben.

Well, if anything puzzles me about him I'll ask about it here and see if there's a socionics explanation. Is that ok?

Also, very broadly, I get the feeling that the whole children's camp is basically a Delta-Alpha kind of place, with the odd Beta thrown in, like the ESTp boss, Phobie and Zepp if INFp as I think he is.

I suspect that Gammas will be the rarest quadra there.

I don't know. Maybe. So far, I've mostly described the people I work closely with and/or ones I get along well with. If Emily is ISFj, then there's at least one Gamma. And, if I were to make a (hesitant) guess, I'd say that there are more Betas than Deltas, just based on how comfortable I feel around different people.

Don't use the videos I've posted so far to type the camp as a whole, as all of them were made elsewhere.

I have no idea where minde lives but I want to live there too.

I'm tempted to say it's the best place on earth, but I can't really objectively say that since I haven't been to many places other than in this general corner of America. The particular place where I'm working is just amazing, though. I'm pretty sure I'm addicted, and when I have to stop someday I'm going to go through withdrawals.


...

I think next I'll try to describe one of the people that I find hard to get along with.

[Expat]

But I can see ENFp for all of them, too, at least in terms of the functions I can identify. So now I can say I know four ENFps (counting my sister). I think it's interesting to see how they can share the same personality type and yet be completely their own individual selves.

Could you summarize what you see as their differences?

[Minde]

Could you summarize what you see as their differences?

Um, a summary? That's hard. But from the top of my head -

Jeremy is quieter than them both. Anna is more dreamy. Andrew is more hyper.

[Expat]

Jeremy is quieter than them both. Anna is more dreamy. Andrew is more hyper.

Well, Rick is also one of the "quieter" ENFps, and a guy at my work is one of the hyper ENFps -- and I also know one of the dreamy ones. So I can see that.

[Minde]

ESTp’s wife, Angela.

She's one of the very few people I work with that I have to try not to dislike. What I find hard to put up with is how unkindly she treats some people.

Shes good at a lot of stuff. She's good at organizing and planning, for example. She's better at putting together parties and get-togethers than I am.

I seriously think she lacks in people skills, though. She tends to be inconsistent in how she treats people, though the most common time she expresses pleasure is when you've performed your duties well and cheerfully. If you haven't done well, though, even if it's just a little mistake (little to me, at least), she'll ream you. I mean, not yell ' in fact, she says it all with a smile and a "You know what I mean?" But she'll say how wrong you were and how disappointed she is in you, basically making you feel like a small piece of dirt. Other times, though, almost at random it seems, she'll be cheerful and kindly, saying encouraging things.

If it was just me she treated like that, I'd be puzzled and sometimes hurt, but I think I could handle it. What really gets to me, though, is that she treats people I'm in charge of and care about like that ' people that I think deserve and need better treatment.

The two of us have had a couple of run-ins, and I'll describe two of them. The first was earlier this summer when I noticed that three of the people I help supervise were getting worn out from the work they were doing (one of them was doing 16 hr shifts). Angela is in charge of the particular area where they work, but instead of talking to her I decided to approach my ESTp boss since he's the one I’m usually supposed to go to about personnel problems (in retrospect that was probably a mistake, but at the time I was doing what I was used to doing). I said here's a problem I see, what do you suggest, and here's what’s worked to solve this problem in the past. Though he didn't give me an immediate answer, he liked my suggestion and appreciated that I had approached him. We both understood that I was doing a part of my job - taking care of those under me. And, knowing him, I felt confident that we'd resolve the issue.

The next day, I saw Angela and the girl who was doing the 16 hr shifts talking. I knew what they were talking about, so, it being my prerogative to be involved, I approached. To my great surprise, Angela was upset! She was very defensive and kept saying "I didn’t know about it" and "it’s not my fault" and that I should have talked with her. How she couldn't have known is beyond me, as she was in there everyday and was the one requiring the girls to work that hard, but I tried my best to smooth things over and assure her that it wasn't about her but about solving a problem.

I was simply trying to do my job and take care of people; she saw it as a personal attack. I can sort of see her perspective and realize that I should have included her in the discussion sooner, but it still confuses me a little. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with socionics.

Later that week, she came in and scolded me for something unrelated and, imo, not worthy of as much harshness as she directed at me. I sort of deserved it, but I think she found it a good opportunity to vent.

...


Eh, maybe more later. Talking about her is putting me in a grumpy mood.

[Expat]

ESTp’s wife, Angela.

She's one of the very few people I work with that I have to try not to dislike. What I find hard to put up with is how unkindly she treats some people.

Shes good at a lot of stuff. She's good at organizing and planning, for example. She's better at putting together parties and get-togethers than I am.

That might suggest EJ or EP.

I seriously think she lacks in people skills, though. She tends to be inconsistent in how she treats people, though the most common time she expresses pleasure is when you've performed your duties well and cheerfully. If you haven't done well, though, even if it's just a little mistake (little to me, at least), she'll ream you. I mean, not yell ' in fact, she says it all with a smile and a "You know what I mean?" But she'll say how wrong you were and how disappointed she is in you, basically making you feel like a small piece of dirt. Other times, though, almost at random it seems, she'll be cheerful and kindly, saying encouraging things.

, , perhaps .

The two of us have had a couple of run-ins, and I'll describe two of them. The first was earlier this summer when I noticed that three of the people I help supervise were getting worn out from the work they were doing (one of them was doing 16 hr shifts). Angela is in charge of the particular area where they work, but instead of talking to her I decided to approach my ESTp boss since he's the one I’m usually supposed to go to about personnel problems (in retrospect that was probably a mistake, but at the time I was doing what I was used to doing). I said here's a problem I see, what do you suggest, and here's what’s worked to solve this problem in the past. Though he didn't give me an immediate answer, he liked my suggestion and appreciated that I had approached him. We both understood that I was doing a part of my job - taking care of those under me. And, knowing him, I felt confident that we'd resolve the issue.

The next day, I saw Angela and the girl who was doing the 16 hr shifts talking. I knew what they were talking about, so, it being my prerogative to be involved, I approached. To my great surprise, Angela was upset! She was very defensive and kept saying "I didn’t know about it" and "it’s not my fault" and that I should have talked with her. How she couldn't have known is beyond me, as she was in there everyday and was the one requiring the girls to work that hard, but I tried my best to smooth things over and assure her that it wasn't about her but about solving a problem.

I was simply trying to do my job and take care of people; she saw it as a personal attack. I can sort of see her perspective and realize that I should have included her in the discussion sooner, but it still confuses me a little. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with socionics.

It's about more focus on than .

Anyway, my guess is ISTj or ENFj.

Also, I wouldn't be so certain about you and the ESTp "both having understood" the same thing. You don't know what he said to his wife.