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Thread: ISTp + ISTj Quasi-identicals (LSI-SLI)

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    Default ISTp + ISTj Quasi-identicals (LSI-SLI)

    Could this ever work? Friendship/relationship wise...why or why not?

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    From my Quasi-identity thread --

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    - LSI-SLI: this could also start in favorable circumstances. Fe-Ne problems. They would stagnate in daily routine and barely speak to each other, bored to death. But could manage their daily affairs well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    LSI-SLI: could work for a long time in the same circumstances as the SEI-ESI, and with both bored to death on a daily basis, probably barely talking to each other and focused on own hobbies.
    If you're thinking of someone in particular, perhaps you should discuss it here to make "sure" of ISTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    An acquaintence of mine is an ISTp, we get along reasonably well, but we're not very close. I don't try to engage him the way a ENFj would because I know it's pointless. After we stopped working together we didn't keep in touch. I suppose this happens with a lot of types anyway.
    ISTj.

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    i know of what seems to be an LSI-SLI marriage. read about it in expat's aforementioned thread.

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    Yeah, I've read that thread. I guess I was just looking for more personal examples but I don't think too many ISTJ's come here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Yeah, I've read that thread. I guess I was just looking for more personal examples but I don't think too many ISTJ's come here...
    Perhaps it might have something to do with the unfair criticism of this type - evident in certain threads.
    ISTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
    Perhaps it might have something to do with the unfair criticism of this type - evident in certain threads.
    Many types are criticised by others, fairly or unfairly. It's one of the things socionics is about.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
    Perhaps it might have something to do with the unfair criticism of this type - evident in certain threads.
    lol pot calling the kettle black right there

    I think its more likely due to the fact that ISTj's dont normally go for this hypothetical stuff. My dad's ISTj and hes too busy working, fixing things to think about nonsense like this.

    For the record i respect how ISTj's are Stoic, Intelligent and Active. Even jolly sometimes im just bound to conflict with them

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica
    Could this ever work? Friendship/relationship wise...why or why not?
    I think as friendship its possible but your unlikely to like each others friends. The thought of a Romantic relation between these types seems depressing.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
    Perhaps it might have something to do with the unfair criticism of this type - evident in certain threads.
    Many types are criticised by others, fairly or unfairly. It's one of the things socionics is about.
    I disagree with you that socionics is partially about slander (Or as you say, unfair criticism). I think you were referring to "unpleasant" criticism rather then "unfair" criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger

    I think as friendship its possible but your unlikely to like each others friends. The thought of a Romantic relation between these types seems depressing.
    Just curious why you think that..

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger

    I think as friendship its possible but your unlikely to like each others friends. The thought of a Romantic relation between these types seems depressing.
    Just curious why you think that..
    Elementary Socionics. The two types are in opposite quadras. ISTp and ISTj are probablly in my opinion the two most grumpy and emotionally distant types out there. Expats right, handling life matters would be a breeze but where do the fun times come from?
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Yeah, I've read that thread. I guess I was just looking for more personal examples but I don't think too many ISTJ's come here...
    Perhaps it might have something to do with the unfair criticism of this type - evident in certain threads.
    Sorry, I am guilty of that. Although I don't like living with one, I actually do appreciate ISTjs (my boss's boss is ISTj, and we think very similarly).

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    You would only connect at the hips if even there.

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    Quadras are really important. Ever see somebody walking down the street, you look them in the face, and you say, "God I know I couldn't fucking stand to be around that person." or "That person would make me bored, uncomfortable.." They are probably from your opposing quadra. Think about it like that and you will see why it is really hard to be friends with, or even tolerate opposing quadra types. Any relation you have with them will stagnate quickly.
    asd

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    Well so we've been 'talking' for quite some time now and I'm not sure how to interpret how things are going. I generally have no clue what others are thinking or feeling or where I 'stand' and what is normal behavior in a relationship, so some input would be appreciated. I get the impression he's not a phone person....as we can go 3 days without talking....? I'm generally always the one that initiates the contact. I'm not very comfortable with this as i need more obvious signs of someones interest. ISTJ's aren't phone people, are they? Normally I would take this as a sign he doesn't want much to do with me but whenever we are together, things are fine. I've been introduced to his whole family already. I dont know...I feel very...for lack of a better word, stuck. Things are fine when we hang out but it's just that...there doesn't seem to be any warm feelings or 'sparks'. He's a great guy and one of the more sane ones i've met and would like to give this a try but i dont want to be setting myself up for failure. I just wonder if it could ever work. No istj's here have had such relationships? I'm trying to take this one slow but he's very serious and traditional and say's he doesn't play games...i get somewhat of a paranoid vibe from him. Although I am very attracted to his maturity and 'no nonsense' approach to things, I wonder if it could work.

    Where are the ISTJ's?? Come on, I need some advice....hard type to understand. I'm a relationship junky : (

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Well so we've been 'talking' for quite some time now and I'm not sure how to interpret how things are going. I generally have no clue what others are thinking or feeling or where I 'stand' and what is normal behavior in a relationship, so some input would be appreciated. I get the impression he's not a phone person....as we can go 3 days without talking....? I'm generally always the one that initiates the contact. I'm not very comfortable with this as i need more obvious signs of someones interest.
    Perhaps he also needs more obvious signs, it looks like you're two introverts and logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    ISTJ's aren't phone people, are they? Normally I would take this as a sign he doesn't want much to do with me but whenever we are together, things are fine. I've been introduced to his whole family already.
    I suspect he may be another ISTp, actually. In that case, if that's correct, I think that's a very clear sign of interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I dont know...I feel very...for lack of a better word, stuck. Things are fine when we hang out but it's just that...there doesn't seem to be any warm feelings or 'sparks'. He's a great guy and one of the more sane ones i've met and would like to give this a try but i dont want to be setting myself up for failure. I just wonder if it could ever work. No istj's here have had such relationships? I'm trying to take this one slow but he's very serious and traditional and say's he doesn't play games...i get somewhat of a paranoid vibe from him. Although I am very attracted to his maturity and 'no nonsense' approach to things, I wonder if it could work.
    Is it not a similar kind of paranoia that you also are showing (I'm not playing devil's advocate, just showing how it may look like from his PoV)?

    Why are you so sure he's ISTj? I really get more of a ISTp vibe from what you say.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I just immediatly got that impression. Almost had no doubt whatsoever. I do realize i'm horrible at typing but ISTJ's seem to have a very clear cut way of acting. He's very serious...very strict with himself and basically demands the same from others or he cuts them out completely. Very image consious, very dependable, very anal, hardworking, etc. I just don't get the ISTP impression at all. I'm much more easygoing. He's almost always in a bad mood...well, very pessimistic would be the better term.

    He's always telling me i'm being paranoid about the phone thing and always telling me i need to relax, but 3 days without any contact? I don't know, in the past, i was never the one that initiated. I guess maybe I could try a little more but I'm stuck on the 'if a guy wants to see you, he'll call' mentality. If he is ISTP, I wouldn't think we'd have such a barrier in communication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I just immediatly got that impression. Almost had no doubt whatsoever. I do realize i'm horrible at typing but ISTJ's seem to have a very clear cut way of acting. He's very serious...very strict with himself and basically demands the same from others or he cuts them out completely. Very image consious, very dependable, very anal, hardworking, etc. I just don't get the ISTP impression at all. I'm much more easygoing. He's almost always in a bad mood...well, very pessimistic would be the better term.
    I hope I'm not confusing you further, but from this very short description he sounds more like an ISFj than ISTj or ISTp. Your perception of "bad mood" and "pessimism" might be his low which you naturally expect from others; that would be valid for ISTj or ISFj.


    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    He's always telling me i'm being paranoid about the phone thing and always telling me i need to relax, but 3 days without any contact? I don't know, in the past, i was never the one that initiated. I guess maybe I could try a little more but I'm stuck on the 'if a guy wants to see you, he'll call' mentality. If he is ISTP, I wouldn't think we'd have such a barrier in communication.
    Rather than a "guy" thing, I think the "problem" is that he's also an introvert. If he is ISFj, he already knows he likes you and so he doesn't see that much need for outward expression.

    Again if he is ISFj, I think he already knows that he likes you a lot but you miss the extroversion and from him.

    That's of course based on the information available
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    hmmm

    even when he clearly and openly voices his hatred for the majority of mankind on a frequent basis with outburts of anger? haha, just doesn't strike me as something a feeling type would do. I admit, i have a lot to learn about this stuff. But thanks for your input, it helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    even when he clearly and openly voices his hatred for the majority of mankind on a frequent basis with outburts of anger? haha, just doesn't strike me as something a feeling type would do.
    It certainly does not necessarily speak against ISFj. Being a feeling type is not necessarily about being sweet or touchy-feely. But one of the things you mentioned before - that he never seemed to "have time" (which has now changed, right?) is indicative of ISFj or ISTj.

    Anyway, perhaps you could just write everything you have noticed about him, then we can get a go at his type.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well, I'll do my best here...

    Very family oriented, very serious, extremely hardworking, not one to take any form of teasing well, if someone does something that goes against what he thinks is 'right' he'll completely cut them off. Very neat, organized, always on time, courteous, insists he's right about everything, quick to anger, temper, extremely honest and straightforward--if he says something, he means it. Quiet yet complains I'm too quiet, complains I always look uninterested, calls me 'too sassy', underlying feelings of nervousness and self consiousness. Stressed out, never relaxed. Very factual, not talkative unless it's something that interests him, hard to impress. Ocassional streaks of shyness, can be soft and bashful when not in presence of his 'buddies'. Few friends but very close to the ones he does have. ummmmm....loves his work, is a full time firefighter and stated the 'routine' work of an office job would lead him to 'shooting up the place'. Ocassionally will be quite affectionate behind closed doors, drinks quite a lot, not afraid to express his opinion on anything, very vulgar. Very good with money....hm, that's about all for now...

    I should also add that he seems very concerned about my 'quietness'. He's always telling me to lighten up and that I should be more outgoing. It's starting to bother me a lot actually. Especially since he's not outgoing himself. Insists on introducing me to new people everyday and expects me to be someone I can't be. I dont know, I think if i knew exactly what his type really was, i'd be able to relax a little more. I'm not sure why i'm always the one that has to initaite contact.

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    I think ISFj fits better than ISTj.



    I'm moving away from relying on someone else's descriptions, but take a look at these from Valentina Meged:



    ISTj sensory subtype

    Sensory subtype appears more agitated in his behavior; and internally more emotional person. He is reticent, but very obstinate and can enter into conflicts, when his opinion is not considered. If he flares up, he is superfluously sharp and categorical in his statements.
    He is restrained, cold, does not love objections and long explanations. Constantly and unnoticeably he follows the actions of others, trying to notice their errors. He is sometimes agitated by anything and then he makes remarks, sometimes he takes over the matter himself or tries to make it better without excessive words. Sometimes he attempts to correct a position and then smiles politely. The gait is stamped" and sufficiently rapid. He appears as a man pulled and active. He dresses conservatively, although sometimes he attempts to appear aesthetically, even fashionable. With the conversation he tries to approach the collocutor, but without direct contact. He is not inclined to be affectionate even with the relatives.



    ISFj sensory subtype


    Sensory subtype is sufficiently strict, critical and ironic. He is categorical in the conclusions and uncompromising in the solutions. Internally vulnerable and emotional, but he tries to appear strong, cold-blooded and confident in himself. He is serious and reserved. He is conservative in the views and the habits. He is honest in the work, but sometimes assiduity is not sufficient. He seems now and then haughty, unapproachable, prickly. View is shrill, face acquires the sometimes alerted expression. he benevolent and attentive, but keeping a distance. Very non-demonstrative, he does not love, when he is examined. He fears evaluations from others. He dresses elegantly, with taste, but ihe is strict. If he is confident in his appearance, he can allow itself additional accessories. A somewhat stamping gait he has.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Very family oriented, very serious, extremely hardworking, not one to take any form of teasing well, if someone does something that goes against what he thinks is 'right' he'll completely cut them off.
    That is the biggest hint towards ISFj and away from ISTj.

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Very neat, organized, always on time, courteous, insists he's right about everything, quick to anger, temper, extremely honest and straightforward--if he says something, he means it. Quiet yet complains I'm too quiet, complains I always look uninterested, calls me 'too sassy', underlying feelings of nervousness and self consiousness. Stressed out, never relaxed.
    This could apply to both, there is a hint of ISTj rather than ISFj here.


    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Very factual, not talkative unless it's something that interests him, hard to impress. Ocassional streaks of shyness, can be soft and bashful when not in presence of his 'buddies'. Few friends but very close to the ones he does have. ummmmm....loves his work, is a full time firefighter and stated the 'routine' work of an office job would lead him to 'shooting up the place'. Ocassionally will be quite affectionate behind closed doors, drinks quite a lot, not afraid to express his opinion on anything, very vulgar. Very good with money....hm, that's about all for now...
    Same here --

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I should also add that he seems very concerned about my 'quietness'. He's always telling me to lighten up and that I should be more outgoing. It's starting to bother me a lot actually. Especially since he's not outgoing himself. Insists on introducing me to new people everyday and expects me to be someone I can't be. I dont know, I think if i knew exactly what his type really was, i'd be able to relax a little more. I'm not sure why i'm always the one that has to initaite contact.
    It's difficult. I think he is Se IJ, and he tells you to "lighten up" and expecting you to take some initiative because he expects you to be an extravert. But I can't really decide between ISTj and ISFj, although I still incline towards the latter. He seems more negativist than positivist.

    Who are the "new people" he introduces you to everyday?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Well not everyday, i was exageratting. I've been seeing him for about 2 weeks and have been introduced to his mom, step mom, dad, stepdad, brother and friends. It's a little more than I was ready to handle at this point. Then he gets mad at me when i'm not 'social' enough with them. ah well. I just don't think I have it in me to be the one always making plans, feels very unnatural.

    I could link you to a few pics if that might help, I don't belive in typing someone based on looks but some might. He'd kill me if he knew i posted these, lol. I think the only option would be IS*J.

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    From the pictures, and from the general impression I get, I have no reason to doubt Se IJ.

    But although I'm still inclined to prefer ISFj, there is too much ISTj "smoke".

    How does he behave when with a group of people he likes, such as his family and friends? Does he then get more animated and enjoy a group atmosphere with jokes etc, or does he remain more or less subdued (even if less so than yourself)?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I got it --

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Very family oriented, very serious, extremely hardworking, not one to take any form of teasing well, if someone does something that goes against what he thinks is 'right' he'll completely cut them off.
    Can you give an example of this happening? What kind of thing would make him cut people off?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Exactly what type is Se IJ? : /

    In group settings, he's very animated...tells jokes and stories in a playful manner. I think it's fun to watch because he's completely different around me. Very quiet and serious. Around his friends, he can be very.....offensive.

    An example of him 'cutting off contact' would be with his birth mother for reasons he will not tell me...he talks to her only once every few months...if that. Previous friends for not 'sticking by him'...things of that nature. err, this frustrates me. I can see too many options...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Exactly what type is Se IJ? : /
    That's another, hopefully more "elegant" way of saying that he's ISXj sensory subtype, so either ISTj-Se or ISFj-Se


    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    In group settings, he's very animated...tells jokes and stories in a playful manner. I think it's fun to watch because he's completely different around me. Very quiet and serious. Around his friends, he can be very.....offensive.
    That suggests ISTj rather than ISFj.


    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    An example of him 'cutting off contact' would be with his birth mother for reasons he will not tell me...he talks to her only once every few months...if that. Previous friends for not 'sticking by him'...things of that nature. err, this frustrates me. I can see too many options...
    That's more ambiguous.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    He looks ISFj to me; however, he's neurotic. However he's of the loyal-neurotic variant, very hard to pin down. I know an ISFj male cp6 sx which can be similar; very different from the stereotypical image of females ISFj, for example.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    @FDG: yeah, I know what you mean. I also agree that he looks somewhat more ISFj than ISTj.

    @Jessica: if he's ISTj, he expects you to be like an ENFj; if ISFj, he expects you to be like an ENTj. Just like you expect him to be like an ENFp, that comes across the way you describe him.

    This comes from the descriptions of dual-seeking functions in the Wiki, written by Rick and myself:

    If he's ISTj, here's the Fe dual-seeking description, ie, why he has ENFj as a dual:

    The individual seems largely unaware of the emotions, agitation, tension, or excitement he creates in others by the things he says and does. He also seems to fail to recognize whether he himself is having fun or is getting cranky, irritated, etc. The individual admires people who can create a lively atmosphere easily and jolt everyone out of their everyday drudgery. He can easily fit into a jolly group atmosphere of partying, jokes, and the like, despite otherwise often making an impression of being very "serious".

    If he's ISFj, here's the Te dual-seeking description, why he has ENTj as a dual:

    The individual is attracted to people seen as knowledgeable, as well as truthful and willing to share that knowledge, in matters seen as interesting and useful to the individual towards achieving productivity and efficiency. Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the individual; facts and explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions. For the same reason, the individual avoids people who are inclined to give out unreliable or simply untruthful information.

    The individual tends to neglect to think about the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him directions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth. The individual admires people who are aware of the productivity of their actions and are always trying to do something rational and worthwhile
    .

    The ISFj bit is not very clear. Basically, he'd expect you to be open about your opinions and sharing your knowledge about anything and everything.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Thanks for the input. I would have never thought to type him ISFJ. I'm still not sure either. I think I need to read more and get more educated. All i know is I haven't quite met someone like him before. Shortest fuse of anyone I've know. I find it a bit comical myself, I try to get him to relax but it irritates him further. I do enjoy being in his company (when he's not harassing me to be more outgoing), i've been trying to lighten his mood a bit but doesn't seem to be working. I'm just not sure if I start to initiate contact more, if that will turn him away...him being in a constant state of anger makes me think he doesn't want any sort of contact but when we are together, he's quite affectionate and happy he's able to get some things off his mind. I don't know. I'm not used to 'taking the reins' when it comes to this sort of thing. Fear of rejection is not fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I try to get him to relax but it irritates him further. I do enjoy being in his company (when he's not harassing me to be more outgoing), i've been trying to lighten his mood a bit but doesn't seem to be working.
    Which means, you try to help him with Si ("relax") and probably Ne ("lighten his mood")? You try to lighten his mood with a bit of irony and insightful remarks?

    If so, you're using exactly what he doesn't like, which is what seems to be happening.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Yes, well....I don't see how it would be possible at all to lighten him up. I've never met someone so depressing and pessimistic before. It just isn't working...I can't be around someone with such a negative view on everything. Starting to bring me down.

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    x
    Last edited by HitmanISTP; 07-25-2008 at 01:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    Yes, well....I don't see how it would be possible at all to lighten him up. I've never met someone so depressing and pessimistic before. It just isn't working...I can't be around someone with such a negative view on everything. Starting to bring me down.
    Lol that was obvious from the start. If you have that feeling in the gut that things are fucked they are. Move on
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Yeah, not to mention it's doing some serious damage to the self esteem being told i'm not outgoing enough and that i always seem nervous and that i need to relax. Always insists on pointing something out that's wrong with me. I've tried to get him off his a** to do something FUN but all he does is work. This was a bad one, haha.

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    huh interesting to see inpout/output about deltas disliking gammas made by deltas on beta forum

    Ni Creative

    there are 3 levels of sword mastery :
    1.: ability to win with sword in your hand.
    2.: ability to win without sword in your hand, but in your soul.
    3, and the hightest one: without having sword nor in hand not in soul be able to win and bring peace to people.

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    Why do you think he's isfj? I'm not sure about many things, but if there is one thing, I know he's not that. Something about the complete lack of tact with which he speaks and the complete asshole-ishness in the way he words things does not seem to be in alignment with that type.

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    Yeah, I also thought he was ISFj at first but he does seem to be ISTj. What he complains about you is the missing Fe.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  40. #40
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    I guess socionics is right about these sorts of things

    Never been so bored with someone in my entire life. About as amusing as watching paint dry. I'm sure he feels the same about me. Ah well.

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