How can one be an NT, intuitive and logical at the same time?

[Ezra]

How someone can be an NT. They seem so paradoxical - while iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

How can these two seemingly contrasting aspects go together?

Also can someone please explain how, although the 8 in the Enneagram is generally a passionate person, their primary types are ESTj and ENTj - characterised by reason?

[KSpin]

Being able to think in logical steps, you mean? Being able to intuitively jump to a conclusion and then think up the reasoning behind it, afterwards? Well, that's for Ne or Ni dominants anyway.

[Ezra]

I see.

[aestrivex]

درخت انگور با نام علمی از خانواده انگورسانان است. در این خانواده حدود 11 جنس و بیش از 600 گونه وجود دارد. مهم*ترین جنس این خانواده جنس انگور است. این گیاه حالت بوته*ای و رونده دارد و دارای پیچک در مقابل بعضی از برگها می*باشد.

میوه انگور به نوع دانه دارو بی دانه تقسیم می*شود هر یک از این دو نوع در رنگهای قرمز وسیاه وزرد و تقریبا سبز دیده میشوند این میوه در مناطقی که حداکثر دمای ان بیش از ۴۰ درجه سانتیگرادو حد اقل ان کمتر از ۱۵ درجه زیر صفر نباشد بهتر رشد می*کند.
طریقه کاشت و برداشت انگور

برای کاشت بوته مو ابتدای قلمه هائی از انرا در فصل بهار قبل از جوانه زدن ان در جائی به*عنوان مخزن می*کارنددربهاراینده که دارای ریشه شده است از مخزن با احتیاط در می*آورند وانرا در گودال های آماده شده به ردیف می*کارند پس از کاشت انرا آب می*دهند بوته جدید با گرم شدن هواباید هر ۵ روز یا هر هفته آب داده شود این بوته بعد از چهار سال بار می*اورد و در ده سالگی باران کامل خواهد شد یک بوته کامل میتوا ند بیش از دویست کیلو انگور بیاورد بوته مو را بعد از چهار ساله شدن هرس میکنند یعنی شاخهای فرعی و دراز یا شاخهای ضعیف انرا می*برند تاهم فرصت رشد به شاخها قوی تر داده باشند وهم مقدار بار انرا تحت کنترل درآورند وکیفیت بار انرا بالا ببرند بوته مو رامی توان روی زمین یا در حال تکیه بر چیزی بالا تر از خاک وزمین قرار داد محل کشت موهایی که روی زمین قرار گرفته است با بیل شخم می*زنند تا علفهای موجود که در فصل بهار می*روید از بین برده شود زیرا این علفها می*توانند به بوته مو و بار آن آسیب وارد کنند بعلاوه باشخم کردن زیر مو نفوذ آب برای رسیدن بریشه راحتر انجام می*پذیرد نوع بی دانه وکشمشی انگور از نظر شیرینی بهترین آن است البته انواع دانه دار بخاطر درشتی آنها از شکل بسیار زیبا برخوردار هستند.

استان قزوین و آذربایجان غربی از استانهای انگور پرور ایران است.

[KSpin]

I see.

Other people will no doubt explain it better, but I've often been able to predict what people are thinking, or what thought processes they've gone through to get to the topic that they've suddenly decided to talk about. Freaked a few people out with that, but it's just Ni and Te, I would imagine.

[KSpin]

درخت انگور با نام علمی از خانواده انگورسانان است. در این خانواده حدود 11 جنس و بیش از 600 گونه وجود دارد. مهم*ترین جنس این خانواده جنس انگور است. این گیاه حالت بوته*ای و رونده دارد و دارای پیچک در مقابل بعضی از برگها می*باشد.

میوه انگور به نوع دانه دارو بی دانه تقسیم می*شود هر یک از این دو نوع در رنگهای قرمز وسیاه وزرد و تقریبا سبز دیده میشوند این میوه در مناطقی که حداکثر دمای ان بیش از ۴۰ درجه سانتیگرادو حد اقل ان کمتر از ۱۵ درجه زیر صفر نباشد بهتر رشد می*کند.
طریقه کاشت و برداشت انگور

برای کاشت بوته مو ابتدای قلمه هائی از انرا در فصل بهار قبل از جوانه زدن ان در جائی به*عنوان مخزن می*کارنددربهاراینده که دارای ریشه شده است از مخزن با احتیاط در می*آورند وانرا در گودال های آماده شده به ردیف می*کارند پس از کاشت انرا آب می*دهند بوته جدید با گرم شدن هواباید هر ۵ روز یا هر هفته آب داده شود این بوته بعد از چهار سال بار می*اورد و در ده سالگی باران کامل خواهد شد یک بوته کامل میتوا ند بیش از دویست کیلو انگور بیاورد بوته مو را بعد از چهار ساله شدن هرس میکنند یعنی شاخهای فرعی و دراز یا شاخهای ضعیف انرا می*برند تاهم فرصت رشد به شاخها قوی تر داده باشند وهم مقدار بار انرا تحت کنترل درآورند وکیفیت بار انرا بالا ببرند بوته مو رامی توان روی زمین یا در حال تکیه بر چیزی بالا تر از خاک وزمین قرار داد محل کشت موهایی که روی زمین قرار گرفته است با بیل شخم می*زنند تا علفهای موجود که در فصل بهار می*روید از بین برده شود زیرا این علفها می*توانند به بوته مو و بار آن آسیب وارد کنند بعلاوه باشخم کردن زیر مو نفوذ آب برای رسیدن بریشه راحتر انجام می*پذیرد نوع بی دانه وکشمشی انگور از نظر شیرینی بهترین آن است البته انواع دانه دار بخاطر درشتی آنها از شکل بسیار زیبا برخوردار هستند.

استان قزوین و آذربایجان غربی از استانهای انگور پرور ایران است.

Is that a passage from the Kuran?

[Expat]

How someone can be an NT. They seem so paradoxical - while iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

How can these two seemingly contrasting aspects go together?

They go together differently for each of the 4 NT types.

If you want to put it like that, and dominants are indeed "visionaires", but for NTs their visions are "fed" by logical input.

For and dominants, their logical thoughts are "fed" by intuitive perceptions.

Also can someone please explain how, although the 8 in the Enneagram is generally a passionate person, their primary types are ESTj and ENTj - characterised by reason?

Well not everyone would agree that 8s are mainly ENTjs and ESTjs.

The way I see it, 8 is a direct descendant of Jung's Extraverted Thinking type, however, I think Jung's description was based on observations of several logical types, including ESTps, and there is more than a "flavor" of ESTp in it.

The "passionate" bit would be due to the ESTp influence; but lots of 8 are not consistent with ESTp, either.

My personal conclusion is that the 16 Socionics types are closest to reality, and the Enneagram's type are less perfect although still very useful. But there is no general agreement, as far as I know, on the correlation between the systems.

[KSpin]

Have you asked the same in Alpha, as they have NTs too?

[snegledmaca]

... iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

What a load of crap.

[KSpin]

... iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

What a load of crap.

Just as misunderstanding. :wink:

[Expat]

... iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

What a load of crap.

Well if you read Jung's descriptions (not that Ezra is necessarily doing that) you get that impression.

[aestrivex]

درخت انگور با نام علمی از خانواده انگورسانان است. در این خانواده حدود 11 جنس و بیش از 600 گونه وجود دارد. مهم*ترین جنس این خانواده جنس انگور است. این گیاه حالت بوته*ای و رونده دارد و دارای پیچک در مقابل بعضی از برگها می*باشد.

میوه انگور به نوع دانه دارو بی دانه تقسیم می*شود هر یک از این دو نوع در رنگهای قرمز وسیاه وزرد و تقریبا سبز دیده میشوند این میوه در مناطقی که حداکثر دمای ان بیش از ۴۰ درجه سانتیگرادو حد اقل ان کمتر از ۱۵ درجه زیر صفر نباشد بهتر رشد می*کند.
طریقه کاشت و برداشت انگور

برای کاشت بوته مو ابتدای قلمه هائی از انرا در فصل بهار قبل از جوانه زدن ان در جائی به*عنوان مخزن می*کارنددربهاراینده که دارای ریشه شده است از مخزن با احتیاط در می*آورند وانرا در گودال های آماده شده به ردیف می*کارند پس از کاشت انرا آب می*دهند بوته جدید با گرم شدن هواباید هر ۵ روز یا هر هفته آب داده شود این بوته بعد از چهار سال بار می*اورد و در ده سالگی باران کامل خواهد شد یک بوته کامل میتوا ند بیش از دویست کیلو انگور بیاورد بوته مو را بعد از چهار ساله شدن هرس میکنند یعنی شاخهای فرعی و دراز یا شاخهای ضعیف انرا می*برند تاهم فرصت رشد به شاخها قوی تر داده باشند وهم مقدار بار انرا تحت کنترل درآورند وکیفیت بار انرا بالا ببرند بوته مو رامی توان روی زمین یا در حال تکیه بر چیزی بالا تر از خاک وزمین قرار داد محل کشت موهایی که روی زمین قرار گرفته است با بیل شخم می*زنند تا علفهای موجود که در فصل بهار می*روید از بین برده شود زیرا این علفها می*توانند به بوته مو و بار آن آسیب وارد کنند بعلاوه باشخم کردن زیر مو نفوذ آب برای رسیدن بریشه راحتر انجام می*پذیرد نوع بی دانه وکشمشی انگور از نظر شیرینی بهترین آن است البته انواع دانه دار بخاطر درشتی آنها از شکل بسیار زیبا برخوردار هستند.

استان قزوین و آذربایجان غربی از استانهای انگور پرور ایران است.

Is that a passage from the Kuran?

no, that is a passage from the arabic wikipedia article on grapes.

[Ezra]

... iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

What a load of crap.

Well if you read Jung's descriptions (not that Ezra is necessarily doing that) you get that impression.

What, that it is a load of crap or that "iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings"?

[Expat]

What, that it is a load of crap or that "iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings"?

The latter. If you follow Jung's descriptions, it's easy to reach the conclusion that Extraverted Intuitives and Introverted Intuitives have very little logic, and vice-versa.

I don't recommend that you use Jung's descriptions for socionics, btw.

[Ezra]

Expat, (excluding your own descriptions ) which is the best source for learning about the various functions?

I've read the socionics.us descriptions so don't bother with a link for that one.

[Expat]

Expat, (excluding your own descriptions ) which is the best source for learning about the various functions?

Actually Rick's site is best, but take a look also at his blog.

But I have a novel idea as to how to understand the functions

The functions were derived from interpersonal relationships. So, you (and anyone else) will actually understand the functions when you really understand, in your "guts", why precisely:

- the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding
- the INFp thinks that the ESTp is the greatest, but is annoyed and puzzled by the ESTj
- the INFj is made uncomfortable by the ESTp, and enjoys the ESTj's company

etc etc

For instance, the INFj's is put off by the ESTp's base , while the INFp craves it; the INFp is annoyed by the ESTj's , while the INFj wants it.

Likewise, the ESTp wants the INFp's , which the ESTj despises. The ESTp finds the INFj's "bitchy" etc, while the ESTj finds it lovely.

And to make it more complicated, the ESTj despises but welcomes ; the ESTp is confused by but adores .

The functions are one way to explain as a system the above interactions; if you read function descriptions, but still can't see why the above interactions happen, then you still haven't got it.

[Reuben]

the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding

Sweet cookie. Any real life examples?

And on a completely seperate note, how do you quote with Expat wrote: in front of the quote?

[Expat]

the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding

Sweet cookie. Any real life examples?

Of ENTj-ISFj duality?

Historically:

Queen Victoria (ISFj) & Prince Albert (ENTj)
King Hussein (ENTj) and Queen Noor (ISFj) of Jordan

Can't think of any others at the moment.

And on a completely seperate note, how do you quote with Expat wrote: in front of the quote?

You write

[quote="Expat"]

That happens automatically if you instead of pressing "reply" you press "quote" when writing a new post.

[Reuben]

the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding

Sweet cookie. Any real life examples?

Of ENTj-ISFj duality?

Historically:

Queen Victoria (ISFj) & Prince Albert (ENTj)
King Hussein (ENTj) and Queen Noor (ISFj) of Jordan

Can't think of any others at the moment.

What about non-historical examples? Examples to do with real life? That are present? observable? postable? ...lalala?

And yeah, of ENTj ISFj duality.

That happens automatically if you instead of pressing "reply" you press "quote" when writing a new post.

Yay Now I have a new weapon in my posting arsenal!

[Ezra]

But I have a novel idea as to how to understand the functions

The functions were derived from interpersonal relationships. So, you (and anyone else) will actually understand the functions when you really understand, in your "guts", why precisely:

- the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding
- the INFp thinks that the ESTp is the greatest, but is annoyed and puzzled by the ESTj
- the INFj is made uncomfortable by the ESTp, and enjoys the ESTj's company

etc etc

For instance, the INFj's is put off by the ESTp's base , while the INFp craves it; the INFp is annoyed by the ESTj's , while the INFj wants it.

Likewise, the ESTp wants the INFp's , which the ESTj despises. The ESTp finds the INFj's "bitchy" etc, while the ESTj finds it lovely.

And to make it more complicated, the ESTj despises but welcomes ; the ESTp is confused by but adores .

The functions are one way to explain as a system the above interactions; if you read function descriptions, but still can't see why the above interactions happen, then you still haven't got it.

Yes, that's easy enough to understand. Why each dislikes each other's functions is a different matter to the fact that they don't get along, and a question to which I'd like to know the answer.

[FDG]

the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding

Sweet cookie. Any real life examples?

Of ENTj-ISFj duality?

Historically:

Queen Victoria (ISFj) & Prince Albert (ENTj)
King Hussein (ENTj) and Queen Noor (ISFj) of Jordan

Can't think of any others at the moment.

What about non-historical examples? Examples to do with real life? That are present? observable? postable? ...lalala?

And yeah, of ENTj ISFj duality.

In my opnion Resee Whiterspoon and Ryan Philippe

[Elro]

the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding

Sweet cookie. Any real life examples?

Of ENTj-ISFj duality?

Historically:

Queen Victoria (ISFj) & Prince Albert (ENTj)
King Hussein (ENTj) and Queen Noor (ISFj) of Jordan

Can't think of any others at the moment.

What about non-historical examples? Examples to do with real life? That are present? observable? postable? ...lalala?

And yeah, of ENTj ISFj duality.

In my opnion Resee Whiterspoon and Ryan Philippe

Witherspoon - ISFj, Phillippe - ENTj?

[FDG]

the ENTj gets along wonderfully with the ISFj, but with the ISFp there is only mutual lack of understanding

Sweet cookie. Any real life examples?

Of ENTj-ISFj duality?

Historically:

Queen Victoria (ISFj) & Prince Albert (ENTj)
King Hussein (ENTj) and Queen Noor (ISFj) of Jordan

Can't think of any others at the moment.

What about non-historical examples? Examples to do with real life? That are present? observable? postable? ...lalala?

And yeah, of ENTj ISFj duality.

In my opnion Resee Whiterspoon and Ryan Philippe

Witherspoon - ISFj, Phillippe - ENTj?

Yeah I think so

[discojoe]

I VI'd Witherspoon as ISFj just because she looks so much like Meg Ryan (though you may have to watch a movie to see it).

[FDG]

I VI'd Witherspoon as ISFj just because she looks so much like Meg Ryan (though you may have to watch a movie to see it).

she is also the carbon-copy of an ISFj girl I know, and of an ISFj assistant professor at my uni, so I honestly have no doubts

[Expat]

Yes, that's easy enough to understand. Why each dislikes each other's functions is a different matter to the fact that they don't get along, and a question to which I'd like to know the answer.

The answer is that conflicting types have mutually incomprehensible (or almost) ways of looking at the world and other people.

Something else for you to think about.

You were saying that you are ENTj. Assuming you still think that, ever wonder why, all of all types, the ISFj should be your dual and the ISFp, your conflictor? And the ISTp your supervisor? If you read the description of an ISTp, does it make sense to you that an ISTp should supervise you?

[Ezra]

You were saying that you are ENTj. Assuming you still think that, ever wonder why, all of all types, the ISFj should be your dual and the ISFp, your conflictor? And the ISTp your supervisor? If you read the description of an ISTp, does it make sense to you that an ISTp should supervise you?

No one should supervise me. I can supervise myself.

[FDG]

You were saying that you are ENTj. Assuming you still think that, ever wonder why, all of all types, the ISFj should be your dual and the ISFp, your conflictor? And the ISTp your supervisor? If you read the description of an ISTp, does it make sense to you that an ISTp should supervise you?

No one should supervise me. I can supervise myself.

Logically incorrect by definition of the word supervision.

[Expat]

I VI'd Witherspoon as ISFj just because she looks so much like Meg Ryan (though you may have to watch a movie to see it).

she is also the carbon-copy of an ISFj girl I know, and of an ISFj assistant professor at my uni, so I honestly have no doubts

I agree that ISFj is very likely for her, but for Philippe I'd say ENFj rather than ENTj.

[Ezra]

You were saying that you are ENTj. Assuming you still think that, ever wonder why, all of all types, the ISFj should be your dual and the ISFp, your conflictor? And the ISTp your supervisor? If you read the description of an ISTp, does it make sense to you that an ISTp should supervise you?

No one should supervise me. I can supervise myself.

Logically incorrect by definition of the word supervision.

Give me a definition.

[KSpin]

Well, the word is 'super' (over/above) and 'vision' (look/watch).

Edit: Which would suggest a definition that needs a detachment from the thing being 'supervised'.

[Expat]

Never mind. In socionics, the ISTp supervises the ENTj and the ISFj, the ESTp. It is irrelevant whether you think that they are supposed to do it or not.

[mike_INTJ]

How someone can be an NT. They seem so paradoxical - while iNtuitives are visionaries; controlled by imagination which overrules their logic and judgement, Thinkers, by comparison are logical, consistent and rational beings.

How can these two seemingly contrasting aspects go together?

Also can someone please explain how, although the 8 in the Enneagram is generally a passionate person, their primary types are ESTj and ENTj - characterised by reason?

that's what makes the type so rare.

intuition comes from the right half of the brain. thinking the left. the two don't normally go together. NT's use both sides maybe even equally. the logic on one doesn't get mixed with the other in the same way. i can think something through logically, yet at the same time have a feeling that something isn't right.... however on the other hand, i may not resposond to it as fast. intuition has a tendency to use feeling and emotion. i'm not totally in tune with emotion and to know if it's mine or not - so i may not be able to use it as fully as i assume the F could. but i can get the gist of things to happen - often based on a logical sequence.

[Ezra]

Well, the word is 'super' (over/above) and 'vision' (look/watch).

Edit: Which would suggest a definition that needs a detachment from the thing being 'supervised'.

Yes... which is how I used it. I do not need supervising.

[Ezra]

Never mind. In socionics, the ISTp supervises the ENTj and the ISFj, the ESTp. It is irrelevant whether you think that they are supposed to do it or not.

Why do they? Or a better question would be why does one type supervise another? What is the purpose of supervising?

[KSpin]

Never mind. In socionics, the ISTp supervises the ENTj and the ISFj, the ESTp. It is irrelevant whether you think that they are supposed to do it or not.

Why do they? Or a better question would be why does one type supervise another? What is the purpose of supervising?

They feel the need to supervise, because they believe that you are lacking (like a child) in areas which they are strong.

[Ezra]

that's what makes the type so rare.

intuition comes from the right half of the brain. thinking the left. the two don't normally go together. NT's use both sides maybe even equally. the logic on one doesn't get mixed with the other in the same way. i can think something through logically, yet at the same time have a feeling that something isn't right.... however on the other hand, i may not resposond to it as fast. intuition has a tendency to use feeling and emotion. i'm not totally in tune with emotion and to know if it's mine or not - so i may not be able to use it as fully as i assume the F could. but i can get the gist of things to happen - often based on a logical sequence.

I see. So that explains the underlying hostility coming from NTs when I state that my type is ENTj. NTs feel special, and they abhor people claiming to be something they're not.

Well, unlucky people, because it's confirmed. I am ENTj, and will remain that to the end of my days.

Now to develop myself so as to become more balanced.

[Ezra]

Never mind. In socionics, the ISTp supervises the ENTj and the ISFj, the ESTp. It is irrelevant whether you think that they are supposed to do it or not.

Why do they? Or a better question would be why does one type supervise another? What is the purpose of supervising?

They feel the need to supervise, because they believe that you are lacking (like a child) in areas which they are strong.

I see. So wouldn't it make more sense for, say, an ISFp to supervise an ENTj, because they're opposites, so they can balance each other out? What's the use in one Thinker telling another that they're lacking? An ISFp could say to an ENTj "you're lacking in everything I have" whereas an ISTp could only say "you're lacking in Introversion, Sensing and Perceiving, but as for Feeling... well, you're fucked".

[KSpin]

Never mind. In socionics, the ISTp supervises the ENTj and the ISFj, the ESTp. It is irrelevant whether you think that they are supposed to do it or not.

Why do they? Or a better question would be why does one type supervise another? What is the purpose of supervising?

They feel the need to supervise, because they believe that you are lacking (like a child) in areas which they are strong.

I see. So wouldn't it make more sense for, say, an ISFp to supervise an ENTj, because they're opposites, so they can balance each other out? What's the use in one Thinker telling another that they're lacking? An ISFp could say to an ENTj "you're lacking in everything I have" whereas an ISTp could only say "you're lacking in Introversion, Sensing and Perceiving, but as for Feeling... well, you're fucked".

No. ISFp and ENTj are conflicting. They are too opposite. ISFp and ENTp are duals. The ones that would balance out.

And I see what your problem may be... Have you looked at the functions? As in ?

That's where you'll see why these relationships are said to happen the way they do.

[Expat]

Why do they? Or a better question would be why does one type supervise another? What is the purpose of supervising?

You see, that's the thing -- a socionics type is one that fits all the relationships, because the relationships are a reflection of the functions. That is one reason, among many, why I don't take your self-typing as ENTj seriously. Your whole line of questioning stems from the name "supervision", but you didn't even bother to check what it meant before saying nonsense like "nobody supervises me" etc.

To answer your question -- what is the "purpose" of conflict, or of any other intertype relationship? That's not the point. It's not about the "purpose" of the relationships, but about their being observed and explained.

Type A supervises type B when B's weakest function is A's strongest, but A's weakest is not B's very strongest. So A tends to see B as doing things the wrong way and having the wrong priorities, and even try to "help" B but in a way that will only annoy B.

For ENTj, that happens with the ISTp since ISTp's base function is the ENTj's PoLR, and the ENTj's base function is a very strong function for the ISTp too.