How can one be an NT, intuitive and logical at the same time?

[Ezra]

I've realised that deciding between and is going to be much harder for me than I first thought.

I've no qualms about my being - or no reason to believe I am not - first. But S/N is proving to be difficult.

Here:

"Prefers to think about, study, and work with visible, quantifiable, and tangible things rather than what is invisible and intangible.

Prefers to think in terms of tangible qualities such as desires, appearance, physiological processes.

Continuously consciously receptive to and quick to react to changes in sensing world around him."

This is me.

But this, here:

"Prefers to base decisions on, and gives more attention to think about, study, and work with hidden, unseen, and intangible things rather than what is visible and tangible.

categories such as intentions, values, expectations, patterns, and mental constructs

Continuously consciously receptive to and quick to react to changes in intuitive world around him (abstract situations, timing, hidden motives, changes in strategy, information). Dulled, delayed reactions to changes in sensing world (comfort and discomfort, physical surroundings, aesthetics, sensations, what people are wearing and doing)."

This is me too!

In fact, the only things I don't relate to are the cons of both!

"Dulled, delayed reactions to changes in sensing world (comfort and discomfort, physical surroundings, aesthetics, sensations, what people are wearing and doing)."

"Dulled, delayed reactions to changes in intuitive world."

I'm not flattering myself, I genuinely have an awareness of both worlds. How do I discern between and ? Give me some very abstract examples because I'm clearly not a polar opposite - S or N. I'm much closer to one or the other.

I'm certain the uncertainty is due to my upbringing. My father's N, my mother is S. I've been taught practical skills, like housework, but I'm not that practical (my brother, by comparison, is a perfect example of a very practical person). I'm intellectual and philosophical, but perhaps not to the extent that that is what I spend my time doing all the time. I like to be a rounded person - working-out for body, reading and the net for mind, and music and film for soul, with my friendships for my heart. However, my S mother, brother and sister all often find that they can't relate to the conversations my father and I have, because they're too "intellectual" and we "go off into our own little worlds". We both find this extremely annoying, because we think they should be able to relate to it perfectly well. I am definitely more N and less S than the rest of my S family, but not as N as my father.

So, basically, you can size it down to this: I'm balanced in both S and N, but am not as adept in either of them as someone who is definitely S or N.

[Ezra]

And you see those -- feelings as being of rivalry and competition?

Yes, I "see those -- feelings" () as being of rivalry to a certain extent. After all, are there any other LIEs on this forum? It is a reasonable argument

You're not trying to really understand it, you're trying to find arguments to justify what you already think.

True. Read my above dilemma though to see where I stand at the moment.

[Expat]

And you see those -- feelings as being of rivalry and competition?

Yes, I "see those -- feelings" () as being of rivalry to a certain extent. After all, are there any other LIEs on this forum? It is a reasonable argument

Why should there be any rivalry? Why would a LIE feel somehow challenged by the presence of another LIE?

[Ezra]

Why should there be any rivalry? Why would a LIE feel somehow challenged by the presence of another LIE?

Because of the reasons I posted in the quotes.

Come on, Expat, there have been too many past examples of similar/identical people vying for top spot in their particular area. It's totally instinctive and natural to feel threatened by a similar force - in the animal kingdom, for example, two apes might want to take control of the pack, and they'd have to battle it out to take full control. I'm not saying our rivalry is of a similar calibre, or even that massive, I'm just saying, theoretically, this kind of thing is prone to happening.

[Ezra]

God, I wish there were some of these conventions in the UK.

[Slacker]

God, I wish there were some of these conventions in the UK.

They were just in London a few weeks ago.

[Ezra]

God, I wish there were some of these conventions in the UK.

They were just in London a few weeks ago.

Cheers. I'll take that into account when I've done building my time-machine.

It would be even better if there were some in the northwest, perhaps in Manchester.

[Slacker]

Well what I meant was they've been there and will probably do that again. I think the UK is more convenient for Rick than the US anyway.

[Ezra]

Well what I meant was they've been there and will probably do that again. I think the UK is more convenient for Rick than the US anyway.

Of course, he's in the Ukraine isn't he.

Are you suggesting that he's our link between the west and the eastern theory of socionics?

[Expat]

Anyone want to argue that Expat and I are rivals?

We're both like apes fighting.

[Expat]

Are you suggesting that he's our link between the west and the eastern theory of socionics?

Yes that's exactly what he is.

EDIT: or between the two "communities" -- there isn't a "west theory".

[Ezra]

Anyone want to argue that Expat and I are rivals?

Okay, bad argument, you win.

I need more information on the Information Elements. Does anyone know of a very detailed description with examples of someone who has each function as their leading one? I want to know how to find my type, and socionics.us doesn't give me what I need.

[Expat]

I want to be the one with the lazer.

Good, I get to carry the little woman

[KSpin]

Do you know what is?

Yes. It's Feeling as a leading function.

As a leading function? No. It's Extroverted Ethics (Feeling).
It's the 'group feeling' function. It's about the emotions between largish groups of people. It doesn't have to be in a set place in your function orders. is the Introverted Ethics (Feeling), and again, people can have this as one of their leading functions. is about personal feelings, between two people or a small group of people.

[Ezra]

Are you suggesting that he's our link between the west and the eastern theory of socionics?

Yes that's exactly what he is.

EDIT: or between the two "communities" -- there isn't a "west theory".

That's why I didn't say "between the western. I meant "the West, and the theory of Socionics of the East" of you want to be pedantic. Interesting. Do you think socionics is growing as a theory i.e. where do you imagine it'll be in a few decades?

[Ezra]

Do you know what is?

Yes. It's Feeling as a leading function.

As a leading function? No. It's Extroverted Ethics (Feeling).
It's the 'group feeling' function. It's about the emotions between largish groups of people. It doesn't have to be in a set place in your function orders. is the Introverted Ethics (Feeling), and again, people can have this as one of their leading functions. is about personal feelings, between two people or a small group of people.

Yeah, sorry, didn't make that clear.

[Ezra]

Anyhow, I did mean to say that I think you are probably a Sensor of some description. SLE is my guess, you practically reek of .

Aahaha. How so? I need some examples so I can clarify the way works.

[KSpin]

Anyhow, I did mean to say that I think you are probably a Sensor of some description. SLE is my guess, you practically reek of .

Aahaha. How so? I need some examples so I can clarify the way works.

Liking things to look nice? As, in uncluttered.

Edit:

Se is responsible for perception of space, appearance and the form of subjects, an estimation of an alignment of forces, strong-willed and power methods of achievement of the purpose.

[Expat]

That's why I didn't say "between the western. I meant "the West, and the theory of Socionics of the East" of you want to be pedantic. Interesting. Do you think socionics is growing as a theory i.e. where do you imagine it'll be in a few decades?

Ah ok, actually your original phrasing was totally accurate. Sorry.

Socionics is already the "standard" Jung-derived personality theory in the countries of the former USSR, and (as far as I can tell) especially in Russia, Ukraine, Estonia and Lithuania; but I am skeptical of it ever rivalling the position MBTI and even the Enneagram enjoy in the west these days.

[Expat]

My ape has more Fi than yours.

Actually, I agree.

[Ezra]

Expat has a good thread where he describes the functions, I think FDG has a thread somewhere as well.

I read Expat's when he directed me to it. Some quality material in there. Can you give me a link to FDG's?

[Ezra]

Liking things to look nice? As, in uncluttered.

That's one instance.

Edit:

Se is responsible for perception of space, appearance and the form of subjects, an estimation of an alignment of forces, strong-willed and power methods of achievement of the purpose.

Fundamentally, appearance is not my first concern. It is a concern, but getting the job done is more important. After reading Expat's piece on , I decided I'm midway between ESTj and ENTj. ESTjs are overly concerned with aesthetics, ENTjs not enough.

By the way, could someone tell me what the different is between ENTj's and ENTp's attitude towards mess?

[Expat]

Expat has a good thread where he describes the functions, I think FDG has a thread somewhere as well.

I read Expat's when he directed me to it. Some quality material in there. Can you give me a link to FDG's?

You might find this useful:

http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=8...r=asc&start=90

A description and discussion of the apple exercise in London.

A summary is here:

What kind of statements did you come up with for each function?

Very abridged and simplistically --

: "this is an apple as commonly bought in the UK, nothing unusual about it, it will share the characteristics of other similar apples (seeds etc)".
"what you just said about that apple being similar to a pear in botanics is not necessarily , but perhaps it is, we have to discuss what is rather than the apple, forget the apple itself "
"oooooh, I looooooove apples, don't you? Come on, let's all say how much we love apples!"
"perhaps this is a 2000-year old mummified apple, it just looks new!"
"this apple makes me think of -- home -- my family -- my childhood, eating apples --"
"this apple must be juicy and delicious, hmm, with just the right sweet taste, and texture as you bite it"
"I'm not sure that it's correct to play around with an apple as if it was an object, after all it's food, there are people in the world who are starving"
"I'm taking this apple with me and going away. End of the game. That's it. Anyone got a problem with that? I'll throw this apple on your face!"

[Ezra]

Hah, it's the quote: "Gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!"

Man I love these little examples you dredge up/come up with, Expat.

They illustrate socionics well. Although I think it's important to recognise the IMs first and then when you get these examples you can laugh about them because you understand it. They're like stereotypes.

To go all on you, that sounds like a lot of fun.

And I just noticed your comments about them. It's interesting jas05 said: "And I disliked the statement" - I found that one one of - if not - the most amusing.

I could relate most to and , although was a little bit hostile.

[Expat]

I could relate most to and , although was a little bit hostile.

More neutral observation would be, "I can see that with a quick gesture I can slap the apple and send it flying across the room".

[Slacker]

I don't think is that goofy. I'd think more like, "I wonder where that apple was grown? Was it ripe yet when it was picked? I wonder who picked it?"

[Expat]

I don't think is that goofy. I'd think more like, "I wonder where that apple was grown? Was it ripe yet when it was picked? I wonder who picked it?"

That's at least as much as , I think.

[Expat]

By the way, could someone tell me what the different is between ENTj's and ENTp's attitude towards mess?

ENTps would adore you for tidying up their mess. ENTjs would find it ok but wonder if you don't have better things to do.

[Slacker]

I don't think is that goofy. I'd think more like, "I wonder where that apple was grown? Was it ripe yet when it was picked? I wonder who picked it?"

That's at least as much as , I think.

Why? It's coming up with possibilities about the apple. Your examples about are always WAY off the wall and it just isn't like that. It's not always about coming up with some really wild idea or making a joke. It's about thinking of different possibilities for something. Like an apple - what possible origins might it have? There are a lot of apples from New Zealand, maybe Wash State, maybe here in Michigan? I've had apples from Oregon too, and Chile. What other countries grow apples? Was it ripe? If it came from New Zealand probably not. If it came from Michigan I'd hope it was but who knows, it could have sat in a warehouse for a while, or it could have been shipped and transferred from one place to another and been on more than one truck. I wonder how long it takes to get an apple here from New Zealand. I wonder how they ship it? By air? Boat would probably take too long. But air seems expensive for an apple. What other possible ways are there of getting an apple here from NZ? I can't think of any.

Anyway, isn't "zany intuition".

[Expat]

Ok, fair enough.

EDIT: my purpose is not to make look zany -- by exaggerating it a bit, I want to emphasize the difference in relation to and , for instance. The same applies to all of my "simplistic" examples.

[Ezra]

By the way, could someone tell me what the different is between ENTj's and ENTp's attitude towards mess?

ENTps would adore you for tidying up their mess. ENTjs would find it ok but wonder if you don't have better things to do.

So ENTxs are both messy people?

[Ezra]

By the way, Expat, I've found the perfect way to discern S from N. Ss represent the general consensus. Find me an S who does not conform to mainstream society - one who is not aware of the whole societal machine surrounding them. Ns, on the other hand, are aware of the ways in which the world works. Ns could not survive in a fascist state (unless they were at the top) whereas Ss could wherever there position.

[Expat]

Ss represent the general consensus.

According to Socionics, some great creators of upheaval, and who went against the consensus, such as Lenin and Peter the Great were ESTps.

I really advise you to drop those simplistic N/S or T/F thingies.

[Ezra]

Yeah, but that's because there was need for change in front of their eyes. Hardly represents a person who saw the history of the world, as Marx did - Marx is clearly an N. Lenin basically read some shit on Marx, and was up and away with the revolution after seeing good old Tsar Nicholas make a dash.

Put it this way, Expat. Ss do not know of a larger works. They go along with what's in front of them.

[KSpin]

Yeah, but that's because there was need for change in front of their eyes. Hardly represents a person who saw the history of the world, as Marx did - Marx is clearly an N. Lenin basically read some shit on Marx, and was up and away with the revolution after seeing good old Tsar Nicholas make a dash.

Put it this way, Expat. Ss do not know of a larger works. They go along with what's in front of them.

Sigh... don't suppose to be telling Expat how Socionics works... please...

[Ezra]

Yeah, but that's because there was need for change in front of their eyes. Hardly represents a person who saw the history of the world, as Marx did - Marx is clearly an N. Lenin basically read some shit on Marx, and was up and away with the revolution after seeing good old Tsar Nicholas make a dash.

Put it this way, Expat. Ss do not know of a larger works. They go along with what's in front of them.

Sigh... don't suppose to be telling Expat how Socionics works... please...

Don't suppose to be telling Expat how socionics works?

I can say what I want. And if Expat isn't seeing what I am, I will express to him what I mean.

I don't think he needs someone to back him up, either.

[KSpin]

Yeah, but that's because there was need for change in front of their eyes. Hardly represents a person who saw the history of the world, as Marx did - Marx is clearly an N. Lenin basically read some shit on Marx, and was up and away with the revolution after seeing good old Tsar Nicholas make a dash.

Put it this way, Expat. Ss do not know of a larger works. They go along with what's in front of them.

Sigh... don't suppose to be telling Expat how Socionics works... please...

Don't suppose to be telling Expat how socionics works?

I can say what I want. And if Expat isn't seeing what I am, I will express to him what I mean.

I don't think he needs someone to back him up, either.

Definitely not ENTj.

[Ezra]

Go on then. Type me, biatch. I'd like to see how your opinion fails.

[KSpin]

Go on then. Type me, biatch. I'd like to see how your opinion fails.

Your very reaction to the fact that you might be wrong is definitely not something that you can ever equate to most Gammas. Too hostile a reaction I'm afraid.

Edit: You may say that Phaedrus did the same, but I'm afraid he didn't turn hostile like that. He actually gave a lot of credible evidence, although some people still doubted his self-typing.

[Ezra]

Yeah well, I was half joking. A minute flash of fury though.

Like me to return to reasonable, open-minded and backed-up-with-evidence mode?

Basically, KSpin, I'm only going to consider another type when one is thrown in my direction. Either I'll look at it and say: "Yes, that is me" or "No, that is not, and here's why". I'll always back up my answers with evidence if they need backing up.

Anyway, like I was saying, type me. I wasn't joking about that bit.