"force my hand"'s type

[Dioklecian]

FMH is ESFJ or ENTJ IMO judging from the pic in his profile (I assume that that is him).

ESFJ most likely.

[Ms. Kensington]

i also thought he was entj from his pic but from recent posts I wondered ESFj.

[Gilly]

LSI, IMO.

[force my hand]

Holy smokes! How did I manage to warrant my own thread?

Looking at a few specific functions, I notice a strong preference of over , insofar as I understand each. Lately, I seem to have assumed the role of being the party-crasher when a few blatant facts of reality contradict the self-supporting model of an introverted thinker.

I can't seem to isolate any preference between and , but even I have to admit my gut points to the former. What confuses me, however, is the stereotypical expression of intuitive preference I exhibit when surrounded in daily life by clear, obvious sensors.

Again, insofar as I understand them, I am sensitive to , but moreso - does this point to a strength in the function, or an inherent weakness? I would claim my emotional IQ is quite high at least in objective/impersonal terms, but I can't claim that extends to situations where I am more personally involved. I think maleness throws a hefty wrench into the mix in wanting to identify myself as a thinker, though I certainly wouldn't deny being a feeler based on positions I've taken in social contexts, as well as 'desires' I've been semi-effective in suppressing.

[olduser]

you are intj

[raisonpure]

you are intj

I noticed a resemblance to the INTj pair at the reliable type pictures site...

[Ms. Kensington]

think he's te

[FDG]

an obvious entj

[force my hand]

As much as I would like to be an EJ, wishing doesn't make it so.

You're looking at a horribly warped INFp, raised by an ISTp and ISFj.

[Joy]

My top choices are SLE and LSI.

(I don't know where people are getting ENTj from.)

[olduser]

I don't see him as Te > Ti at all.

My top choices are SLE and LSI.

agreed. he's still intj

[force my hand]

SLE: No chance in hell.

LII: Very plausible.

LSI: If it were not for the inane charicatures that persist around this type, my rejection would be severely weakened. Is there such thing as an Irrational Ij?

[Joy]

Maybe. http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3467

The guy I was writing about there though isn't a good representation of any type.

[FDG]

My top choices are SLE and LSI.

(I don't know where people are getting ENTj from.)

If you see yourself as ENTj, I can see how he isn't one from your frame of reference.

In any case, his arguments are always composed by a shit-load of Te, and his Te takes a more concrete form that most of other members'. I could believe ISTp for him - that'd be the only other plausible option after ENTj.

[anndelise]

Is there such thing as an Irrational Ij?

Most Ijs ARE irrational.....though not necessarily by how socionics defines irrational

[Joy]

In any case, his arguments are always composed by a shit-load of Te, and his Te takes a more concrete form that most of other members'. I could believe ISTp for him - that'd be the only other plausible option after ENTj.

What's the difference in your mind between Te and Se + Ti? What are some manifestations of each (assume we're talking about ego block here)?

And... doesn't he remind you of mercutio?

And... he seems static to me.

[FDG]

In any case, his arguments are always composed by a shit-load of Te, and his Te takes a more concrete form that most of other members'. I could believe ISTp for him - that'd be the only other plausible option after ENTj.

What's the difference in your mind between Te and Se + Ti.

And... doesn't he remind you of mercutio?

And... he seems static to me.

Te is objective facts

Se Ti is only the reality that supports the goals

Se Ti adjusts reality to goals

Te Ni adjust his goals to reality

[Joy]

I agree, though I'm not sure I'd put it like that.

I see Te as being about what's effective... Te is essentially about what works.

Se + Ti is also about being realistic and getting objective results, but it's in a different way.

Going back to static vs. dynamic:

Ti and Se are static, or "picture brained". They see a situation as being a certain way. If they think it should be different, they make it different. They see it as pretty simple. It either is the way it should be or not. If not, they use their understanding of hierarchy, structures of systems, and objects' (person or thing, mostly) strength and readiness to mobilize to make it the way it should be. (It's just occurred to me that Picard's command "make it so" is an example of what I'm describing.)

Te and Ni are dynamic. They see what's going on in a situation, and where it's headed. They use their understanding of patterns in events to make change work for them (instead of making things move from one scenario to another) according to their values. Their values don't really change, but their means for accomplishing their objectives and what those specific objectives are do (because of what's going on and how they see things developing). They don't hang on to an idea of the way something "should" be because they know they'll miss opportunities if they do. Also, the objective they originally had in mind may no longer be the best way to meet their values due to ever changing circumstances. They also don't etch a picture of how things currently are firmly in their minds because what would the point in that be? Things always change, often quickly. They see movement (as opposed to readiness to move).

[FDG]

I agree completely

[Jimbean]

I'm guessing ESTj, just a hunch.

[Exodus]

What's the difference in your mind between Te and Se + Ti?

This is a good question, since they are confused more often than they should be. People naturally assume that Te somehow more "realistic" than Ti, and it's because Ti is so often presented as it is only in INTjs.

[Logos]

What's the difference in your mind between Te and Se + Ti?

This is a good question, since they are confused more often than they should be. People naturally assume that Te somehow more "realistic" than Ti, and it's because Ti is so often presented as it is only in INTjs.

Incidentally, Ti is often portrayed by Te-types as being almost illogical.

At its most basic conception, Ti + Se should be the structural logic of real action, in terms of goals, authority, will power, and hierarchies.

[force my hand]

VI me, plz:



Is this an example of my shit-load of satisfying my , in the sense that outside facts about the real world (hose + water) are informing on my subjective, inner state-of-being (i.e. my parents are neglectful pricks ~ THIRSTY)?

Or would it be + in the sense of being realistic and getting results - in a different way, kind of like, "$#@! hose, give me some water, dammit!" #%$!



...of course, it's been a couple years since that pic was taken so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I may have been communicating with the well pixies, in which case, is that more or ?

[Creepy-bg]

dude that waters going to shoot right up your nose!

[Gilly]

[force my hand]

Rather,

...we can be friends... :wink:

[Gilly]

You think you're ESI now? In terms of VI, I wouldn't altogether count it out, but I'm not so sure...

[Joy]

VI me, plz:



Is this an example of my shit-load of satisfying my , in the sense that outside facts about the real world (hose + water) are informing on my subjective, inner state-of-being (i.e. my parents are neglectful pricks ~ THIRSTY)?

Or would it be + in the sense of being realistic and getting results - in a different way, kind of like, "$#@! hose, give me some water, dammit!" #%$!



...of course, it's been a couple years since that pic was taken so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I may have been communicating with the well pixies, in which case, is that more or ?

it's... a kid playing with a hose

[Ms. Kensington]

You should talk about your relations. Pardon me if you already have.

[force my hand]

You should talk about your relations. Pardon me if you already have.

My relations as in my parents, you mean?

[implied]

What's the difference in your mind between Te and Se + Ti?

This is a good question, since they are confused more often than they should be. People naturally assume that Te somehow more "realistic" than Ti, and it's because Ti is so often presented as it is only in INTjs.

i agree that ISTjs are pretty damned realistic. i think this is delving into the whole Ti+/- thing, but it's quite accurate i think.

[Ms. Kensington]

You should talk about your relations. Pardon me if you already have.

My relations as in my parents, you mean?

Parents, siblings, lovers, that guy at the music festival...

[force my hand]

You should talk about your relations. Pardon me if you already have.

My relations as in my parents, you mean?

Parents, siblings, lovers, that guy at the music festival...

Unfortunately, I don't have much success in accurately typing a number of people in my acquaintance. My dad appears to be an ISTj, my mother an ISFj - I get along with them very well. My sister is possibly an INFp - we don't conflict, but her dramatics get on my nerves. I've stopped talking to her essentially because everything out her mouth is illogical/irrational, designed purely to illicit an emotional response.

Best friends through the ages: ENFp, ESTj...

I don't know, I just don't feel like I 'got' anything here.

[implied]

You should talk about your relations. Pardon me if you already have.

My relations as in my parents, you mean?

Parents, siblings, lovers, that guy at the music festival...

Unfortunately, I don't have much success in accurately typing a number of people in my acquaintance. My dad appears to be an ISTj, my mother an ISFj - I get along with them very well. My sister is possibly an INFp - we don't conflict, but her dramatics get on my nerves. I've stopped talking to her essentially because everything out her mouth is illogical/irrational, designed purely to illicit an emotional response.

Best friends through the ages: ENFp, ESTj...

I don't know, I just don't feel like I 'got' anything here.

this makes you sound INTj. you have to be some Ti-IJ.

[implied]

hm I thought those pointed to ENTj.

why? i could see this as a person who appreciates Ti role or something. Ti polr may be something else. i could imagine an ENTj being like, "petty emotional manipulation!" and you hear this a lot. i mean, even ashton says this quite a bit.


edit - on the other hand i'm coming from straight IP land.




how well could you reconcile after an argument, fmh?

[meatburger]

this makes you sound INTj. you have to be some Ti-IJ.

Hmm. I would say if his friends are / were ENFp and ESTj that points towards delta. Depends how he feels about said friends etc.

[force my hand]

how well could you reconcile after an argument, fmh?

Argument, of course, covers many areas, but based on my standards I would say quite well and easily. I often perceive others as using argument in plays for power; I don't think that's me, however. Any debate I get into seems to stem from a logical disconnect between myself and the other person. In areas I feel myself proficient enough - religion, science, politics, music, etc. - I will speak up if I see some sort of inconsistancy. Partially to correct, partially to check if my own system has a glaring hole I've failed to cover (that's rarely the case with what I argue about).

So I'll make my case; sometimes it's taken, often its not, and where the latter is concerned I say, okay, I tried, my position is still strong, so if opposition exists, no big deal, right? People can have two different viewpoints and still function together. One of my good work friends (I believe ENFp) is a young earth creationist, and while we often clash on that head - both of us treat debate as sport - no feelings ever get hurt. We can both criticize each other's positions, yet it still retain a very 'safe' environment.

In a more common context, people will often do and say things that annoy me and make me want to say, 'hold up a sec', but often I won't. I don't want to fight just for the sake of fighting, so there has to be a point that could be achieved by arguing. Merely arguing every point wastes too much energy, and isn't particularily enjoyable. You can never hold a decent conversation with someone like that, so why would I become that?

I find myself often arguing at work, but that's because we are making large-scale changes to our manufacturing process (going to LEAN), and I think in several areas attention to reality has gone out the window. Too many 'ideas' people in positions of power being yes-men as a function of progressing their career. So if some braniac comes up with a dumb idea that isn't going to work, I will usually argue it because quite frankly, I'm the one who has to deal with the shit someone else brainstorms. Work survival.

Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, when a blowout does occur, it's usually a result of emotional frustration and not logic - logic I will usually argue calmly because the point I'm trying to make is too important to waste on excessive emotion. Meltdowns are interpersonal, and I go into 'critic mode'. That said, I am also highly critical of my own people-skills, and readily give up ground when attacked (because the other person is usually right about my character - though me being at fault doesn't absolve them of their inappropriate behaviour). So in that sense - if you're following me - an argument is ironically a great way to reconcile with another person because it airs the BS and we can start from square one.

[FDG]

The fact that you also get along with both of your ISxj parents sounds still ENTj to me.

[XoX]

I'd say -ego type. Not INTp. I could be wrong.

[Gilly]

[quote="force my handan argument is ironically a great way to reconcile with another person because it airs the BS and we can start from square one.[/quote]

Don't you love it? This is one of the reasons I'm going into law, heh.