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Thread: Model A

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    What are the best places online to find information about the Model A theory of Socionics?
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    Rick's site, socioniko.

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    Also, we are building up material on it at http://wikisocion.org/~wikisoci/en/i...?title=Model_A
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Thanks so far, but any others?

    In particular I'm curious about what each block does. I realize the sites given have addressed that to some extent, but I still feel a hankerin' for more.

    Any sites in Russian, even?
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    nothing satisfying... when you do find something that looks worthwhile it's all in NT double speak

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    There is also http://www.socionika.com/blocks.html

    The only thing missing from this chart is a good discussion of the Id.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    the regular wikipedia.

    although it's alright I would first suggest all the other pages that are named in this post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    There is also http://www.socionika.com/blocks.html

    The only thing missing from this chart is a good discussion of the Id.
    Does the Socionics Institute even discuss the id?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    There is also http://www.socionika.com/blocks.html

    The only thing missing from this chart is a good discussion of the Id.
    Does the Socionics Institute even discuss the id?
    Socionics Institute? I made this chart four years ago. At the time, I could not find ANY coherent descriptions of the Id anywhere (there were lots of descriptions of the Id and the Id block functions, but they very vague -- much like Reinin dichotomy descriptions) and did not understand it myself. Now I am getting a handle on it. It was important to start thinking in terms of information aspects and simply observe how different people responded to the information aspects of their Id block. Also, our exercise in London showed some very clear qualities of the functions of this block, when people tried to produce information of the kinds in their Id block.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    There is also http://www.socionika.com/blocks.html

    The only thing missing from this chart is a good discussion of the Id.
    Does the Socionics Institute even discuss the id?
    Socionics Institute? I made this chart four years ago. At the time, I could not find ANY coherent descriptions of the Id anywhere (there were lots of descriptions of the Id and the Id block functions, but they very vague -- much like Reinin dichotomy descriptions) and did not understand it myself. Now I am getting a handle on it. It was important to start thinking in terms of information aspects and simply observe how different people responded to the information aspects of their Id block. Also, our exercise in London showed some very clear qualities of the functions of this block, when people tried to produce information of the kinds in their Id block.
    That's good. Jung says much about the id block's content, but he seems very coy about it. In his book, Dreams and Symbolism in Alchemy, he attributes the presence of a man with a pointed beard to the assistance of the intellect. The "intellect" also appears as a defender or advisor of sorts against the influence of more beastial images, like the appearance of an ape with a weapon, for example. The intellect often appears opposed to the presence of a woman who wears a veil, which Jung says corresponds to the inferior function or anima. There are also appearances of dwarves, always four, in reference to rhymes which emphasize the numbers 7 and 8. Jung correlates these to Faustian references of the same, lyrics of neriads and nymphs.

    It seems reasonable to reproduce Jung's thoughts on the significance of the numbers 7 and 8, given the poor understanding we possess even in a general sense as to the operation of their functions in Model-A. There are also numerous references to urobolus ("snakes eating their own tail) and mandalic circles of eight sections. Perhaps these speak to the intuitive perception the same psychic structure we apphrehend in Model-A.

    It was important to start thinking in terms of information aspects and simply observe how different people responded to the information aspects of their Id block.
    I could not agree more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Also, we are building up material on it at http://wikisocion.org/~wikisoci/en/i...?title=Model_A
    The bits for the IM elements, explaining how they manifest when used as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc function is awesome.
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    Rick: I'd caution you when you say (and I am presuming that you as the maintainer of the wikisocion site are the one who has edited the site to say this) the 7th function is ignoring. There is a reverse view, that of the 7th acting as a filter to all but a selective flow of information. It is a means of regulating information whether from within or from without, depending on its orientation. Similarly, it can be used to prevent information from overwhelming the psyche, as is suggested by the following dream from Jung's [/i]Psychology and Alchemy[/i] (quoted from The Portable Jung):


    14. DREAM:
    The dreamer is in America looking for an employee with a pointed beard. They say that everybody has such an employee.

    America is the land of practical, straightforward thinking, uncontaminated by our European sophistication. The intellect would there be kept, very sensibly, as an employee. This naturally sounds like lese-majeste and might therefore be a serious matter. So it is consoling to know that everyone (as is always the case in America) does the same. The "man with the pointed beard" is our time-honored Mephisto whom Faust "employed" and who was not permitted to triumph over him in the end, despite the fact that Faust had dared to descend into the dark chaos of the historical psyche and steep himself in the ever-changing, seamy side of life that rose up out of that bubbling cauldron.

    From subsequent questions it was discovered that the dreamer himself had recognized the figure of Mephistopheles in the "man with the pointed beard." Versatility of mind as well as the inventive gift and scientific leanings are attributes of the astrological Mercurius. Hence the man with the pointed beard represents the intellect, which is introduced by the dream as a real familiaris, an obliging if somewhat dangerous spirit. The intellect is thus degraded from the supreme position it once occupied and is put in the second rank, an at the same time branded as daemonic. Not that it had ever been anything but daemonic--only the dreamer had not noticed before how possessed he was by the intellect as the tacitly recognized supreme power. Now he has a chance to view this function, which till then had been an uncontested dominant in his psychic life, at somewhat closer quarters. Well might he exclaim with Faust: "So that's what was inside the poodle!" Mephistopheles is the diabolical aspect of every psychic function [here is a direct allusion to the contrasting attitudes] that has broken loose from the hiearchy of the total psyche and now enjoys independence and absolute power. But this aspect can be perceived only when the function becomes a seperate entity and is objectified or personified, as in this dream.


    22. VISUAL IMPRESSION:
    [i]In a primeval forest. An elephant looms up menacingly. Then a large ape-man, bear, or cave-man threatens to attack the dreamer with a club. Suddenly the "man with the pointed beard" appears and stares at the agrressor, so that he is spellbound. But the dreamer is terrified. The voice says, "Everything must be ruled by the light."

    The multiplicity of nymphs [previous dream] has broken down into still more primitive components; that is to say, the animation of the psychic atmosphere has very considerably increased, and from this we must conclude that the dreamer's isolation from his contemporaries has increased in proportion. This intensified isolation can be traced back to vision 21, where the union with the unconscious was realized an accepted as a fact. From the point of view of the conscious mind this is highly irrational; it constitutes a secret which must be anxiously guarded, since the justification for its existence could not possibly be explained to any so-called reasonable person. Anyone who tried to do so would be branded a lunatic. The discharge of energy into the environment is therefore considerably impeded, the result being a surplus of energy on the side of the unconscious: hence the abnormal increase in the autonomy of the unconscious figures, culminating in aggression and real terror. The earlier entertaining variety performance is beginning to become uncomfortable. We find it easy enough to accept the classical figures of nymphs thanks to their aesthetic embellishments; but we have no idea that behind these gracious figures there lurks the Dionesian mystery of antiquity, the satyr play with its tragic implication: the bloody dismemberment of the god who has become an animal. It needed a Nietzsche to expose in all its feebleness Europe's schoolboy attitude to the ancient world. But what did Dionysus mean to Nietzsche? What he says about it must be taken seriously; what it did to him still more so. There can be no doubt that he knew, in the primliminary stages of his fatal illness, that the dismal fate of Zagreus was reserved for him. Dionysus is the abyss of impassioned dissolution, where all human distinctions are merged into the animal divinity of the primordial psyche--a blissful and terrible experience. Humanity, huddling behind the walls of its culture, believes it has escaped this experience, until it succeeds in letting loose another orgy of bloodshed. All well meaning people are amazed when this happens and blame high finance, the armaments industry, the Jews, or the Freemasons. (*I wrote this passage in spring, 1935)

    At the last moment, friend "Pointed Beard" appears on the scene as an obliging deus ex machina and exorcises the annihilation threatened by the formidable ape-man. Who knows how much Faust owed his imperturbable curiosity, as he gazed on the spooks and bogeys of the classical Wal-purgisnacht, to the helpful presence of Mephisto and his matter-of-fact point of view! Would that more people could remember the scientific or philosophical reflections of the much-abused intellect at the right moment! Those who abuse it lay themselves open to the suspicion of never having experienced anything that might have taught them its value and shown them why mankind has forged this weapon with unprecedented effort. One has to be singularly out of touch with life not to notice such things. The intellect may be the devil, but the devil is the "strange son of chaos" who can most readily be trusted to deal effectively with his mother. The Dionysian experience will give this devil plenty to do should he be looking for work, since the resultant settlement with the unconscious far outweighs the labors of Hercules. In my opinion it presents a whole world of problems which the intellect could not settle even in a hundred years--the very reason why it so often goes off on a holiday to recuperate on lighter tasks. And this is also the reason why the psyche is forgotten so often and so long, and why the intellect makes such frequent use of magical apotropaic words like "occult" and "mystic," in the hope that even intelligent people will think that these mutterings really mean something.
    I would say though, that I can see how a person who was looking for patterns in the 7th function's behavior in others would notice their tendency to use it as a means of irrelevantizing information. I see where you are coming from; as usual, my concern revolves over whether or not it explains a responsible fragment of the whole story. (I can see a person using your definition as a means of accusing the other person of outright ignorance, when the other is only relying on a seperate strategy of equal relevance to the objective situation, and is limiting their information intake accordingly.)

    The "man with the pointed beard" who appears here is described by Jung (later) as an inferior function, but not -the- inferior function. (feeling, which is represented by a veiled woman... probably introverted feeling.) Jung says from the outset of the discourse that the dreamer is a thinking type (not himself), which suggests the "devil" intellect to mean introverted thinking, contrasted by extroverted thinking as the dominant. (Jung does not comment on the attitude specifically)

    I suspect ENTjs and ESTjs can sympathize with these dreams.

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    The most common name for the 7th function in Russian is the "limiting function." I haven't been able to understand what it limits, though.

    >>... their tendency to use it as a means of irrelevantizing information.

    This makes some sense. What I have observed is that people experience their 7th function fairly frequently when they are alone, but on a group level (even between two people) they don't allow this kind of information to circulate freely and try to switch over to the introverted or extraverted version of this IM element that corresponds to their leading function.

    One dual's 7th is the other's 3rd. When someone encounters a situation where the element of their 3rd function is at the forefront, they usually experience strain and try to adapt and display a set of learned roles (to avoid criticism) rather than change the situation itself. The dual, however, has this element as his 7th function and does not feel the need to adapt to or portray it. Instead, they see if they can switch the focus to the element that is their 1st function. This takes the pressure off the dual.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    The most common name for the 7th function in Russian is the "limiting function." I haven't been able to understand what it limits, though.

    >>... their tendency to use it as a means of irrelevantizing information.

    This makes some sense. What I have observed is that people experience their 7th function fairly frequently when they are alone, but on a group level (even between two people) they don't allow this kind of information to circulate freely and try to switch over to the introverted or extraverted version of this IM element that corresponds to their leading function.

    One dual's 7th is the other's 3rd. When someone encounters a situation where the element of their 3rd function is at the forefront, they usually experience strain and try to adapt and display a set of learned roles (to avoid criticism) rather than change the situation itself. The dual, however, has this element as his 7th function and does not feel the need to adapt to or portray it. Instead, they see if they can switch the focus to the element that is their 1st function. This takes the pressure off the dual.
    Excellent description. This also confirms what I think - that duals complement each other via every function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Excellent description. This also confirms what I think - that duals complement each other via every function.
    Yes, I agree. Perhaps one way of extending this to the 8th-4th interaction (your 8th function, supposedly strong, is your dual's PoLR and vice-versa) -- the 8th function is something you can indulge in but you see it as sort of unimportant, perhaps even as a -- "guilty pleasure"? You're not really bothered by those who focus on it, you just think that they've got their priorities wrong. So you easily focus on it even less in the presence of someone who doesn't value it at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    The most common name for the 7th function in Russian is the "limiting function." I haven't been able to understand what it limits, though.

    >>... their tendency to use it as a means of irrelevantizing information.

    This makes some sense. What I have observed is that people experience their 7th function fairly frequently when they are alone, but on a group level (even between two people) they don't allow this kind of information to circulate freely and try to switch over to the introverted or extraverted version of this IM element that corresponds to their leading function.

    One dual's 7th is the other's 3rd. When someone encounters a situation where the element of their 3rd function is at the forefront, they usually experience strain and try to adapt and display a set of learned roles (to avoid criticism) rather than change the situation itself. The dual, however, has this element as his 7th function and does not feel the need to adapt to or portray it. Instead, they see if they can switch the focus to the element that is their 1st function. This takes the pressure off the dual.
    It's not really relevant to the thread but...

    have you seen, Rick, any research having to do with the effect of the 7th function being used by one person at the same time as another person is using the 3rd? As regards their relationship to each other?

    So to say, is there any evidence that differences in function order position between oneself and another person at any given moment have an influence your relations with them? It seems probable that there isn't... if only because such would be difficult to prove. (I'm not thinking it impossible) What would you think about such a hypothesis?

    I believe there is a connection between the information exchanged between people who are 4 functions apart from each other at any given moment in the function order, and the operation of the 7th function as a filter or limiting factor of consideration. Such a hypothesis, however, is difficult to prove.

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    You'd be looking at the Quasi-Identical then?
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    You'd be looking at the Quasi-Identical then?
    No, what I meant was the use of the role function by one person at the same time another person uses the personal knowledge/limiter function. The two are facing situations of duality, even though they may not be duals in the socionics sense. One's advice at that moment will assist the other, or at least seem of some benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    You'd be looking at the Quasi-Identical then?
    No, what I meant was the use of the role function by one person at the same time another person uses the personal knowledge/limiter function. The two are facing situations of duality, even though they may not be duals in the socionics sense. One's advice at that moment will assist the other, or at least seem of some benefit.
    Right, but they don't have to be the same function?
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

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    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    You'd be looking at the Quasi-Identical then?
    No, what I meant was the use of the role function by one person at the same time another person uses the personal knowledge/limiter function. The two are facing situations of duality, even though they may not be duals in the socionics sense. One's advice at that moment will assist the other, or at least seem of some benefit.
    Right, but they don't have to be the same function?
    No, just at complementary points in the IM cycle.

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