The Great Sephiroth

[tcaudilllg]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUqmtHWo32U&mode=related&search=[/youtube]

I could easily see him as Cloud's mirror... in fact, he acts like a shadow-mirror of sorts. (as regards matters of exertion, I could imagine him as Cloud's "perfect" mirror")

Relevant points:
- the way he is defeated, because this is indicative of PoLR.
- his suggested role as a messianic figure.
- his manner of verbal aggression.
- his strategy to defeat Cloud.
- his strategy to defeat the lifestream.
- his rejection of his opportunity to defeat Cloud.

[Mea]

Mirror?? Why? I can't see mirror.

[tcaudilllg]

Mirror?? Why? I can't see mirror.

The way he puts Cloud's own feelings up against him. Like a sort of accusor or prosecutor.

My hypothesis is INFp. I think we reached a general consensus some months ago that Cloud is ISTp.

In particular, I see striking parallels between Sephiroth and raisonpure. I should say though, that I have not yet substantialized these "intuitions" to any degree of certitude. I'm wanting to see other people's ideas on what Seph's type is, and why they believe such.

Seph's been on my mind for a long, long time.

Do you not see similarities to yourself, Mea?

[discojoe]

I think he and Mr Strife are identicals. ISTp.

VENI, VENI, VENIAS.

[KSpin]

I think he and Mr Strife are identicals. ISTp.

VENI, VENI, VENIAS.

Ne me mori facias.

[discojoe]

Haryuu no hanekata.

[KSpin]

Haryuu no hanekata.

That's not latin, and that's no One-Winged Angel.

[tcaudilllg]

Haryuu no hanekata.

That's not latin, and that's no One-Winged Angel.

It's irrelevant to the thread, but it's a very ancient debate by internet standards. The correct wording is "gloriosa, generosa", which is meant to express "noblity" and "glory".

[UDP]

Seph is an LII and you know it. He is my identical.

Look at Tcau. Do you not see a resemblance?
We read books in a basement, learn about the underlying truth between things, and come up with ways to "save the world".

Eh...

Seeing that video was kind of a turnoff. Seph is too shallw for an LII. What kind of a dee dee dee would want to use a planet to travel across space, and then find a new one, and build a great future? What is going to be so great about it? Sit on a throne and call yourself king? Does anyone know what Seph's real plans are?

Why not have him be the dual to an ISTp, if that is clouds type.

[discojoe]

Haryuu no hanekata.

That's not latin, and that's no One-Winged Angel.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's Japanese, and it IS in One Winged Angel.

[Logos]

ENTj.

[raisonpure]

My purpose in life, realized from analysis of my dreams, is very simple:
1) to purge evil, which often take the form of untruths
2) to defend Home from invasions and prepare for them by accumulating and saving up weapons for future battles
3) to prevent the collapse of society
4) to serve others

Unlike Sephiroth, I can no longer entertain the pointless and unrealizable dream of making my way back up to Eden after the fall from perfection, especially if it's at the expense of others' lives. My focus is on preservation, not destruction -- Sephiroth's raison d'etre is essentially opposite of mine. Don't waste more than an hour of your time looking further into the correlation between my appearance to that of a video game character.

[UDP]

My purpose in life, realized from analysis of my dreams, is very simple:
1) to purge evil, which often take the form of untruths
2) to defend Home from invasions and prepare for them by accumulating and saving up weapons for future battles
3) to prevent the collapse of society
4) to serve others

Unlike Sephiroth, I can no longer entertain the pointless and unrealizable dream of making my way back up to Eden after the fall from perfection, especially if it's at the expense of others' lives. My focus is on preservation, not destruction -- Sephiroth's raison d'etre is essentially opposite of mine. Don't waste more than an hour of your time looking further into the correlation between my appearance to that of a video game character.

It is nice to know we are on the same team.

[KSpin]

Haryuu no hanekata.

That's not latin, and that's no One-Winged Angel.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's Japanese, and it IS in One Winged Angel.

That's the whole point. The original One Winged Angel from the game, Final Fantasy 7 was in latin.

[tcaudilllg]

Haryuu no hanekata.

That's not latin, and that's no One-Winged Angel.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's Japanese, and it IS in One Winged Angel.

That's the whole point. The original One Winged Angel from the game, Final Fantasy 7 was in latin.

It should be noted further that the orchestral version of the above featured what are very obviously latin lyrics with no reference at all to "haryuu no hanekata". Also, if you listen to the original lyric sound samples (which is quite possible if you have access to a SoundBlaster SoundFont capable card and the sample files that came with the PC version), it is immediately evident that the lyrics are in fact, "gloriosa generosa". For reference, those samples are stored in the "woodblock" sound bank.

As I've said, this is a common misundertanding perpetuated by Japanese-origin otakus who apparently found the notion of a Japanese reference in the lyrics appealing. It became (nearly) fact after it was stated as such on "Sephiroth no Oukoku" some months after the game's original release. (the site has been closed for years)

My purpose in life, realized from analysis of my dreams, is very simple:
1) to purge evil, which often take the form of untruths
2) to defend Home from invasions and prepare for them by accumulating and saving up weapons for future battles
3) to prevent the collapse of society
4) to serve others

Unlike Sephiroth, I can no longer entertain the pointless and unrealizable dream of making my way back up to Eden after the fall from perfection, especially if it's at the expense of others' lives. My focus is on preservation, not destruction -- Sephiroth's raison d'etre is essentially opposite of mine. Don't waste more than an hour of your time looking further into the correlation between my appearance to that of a video game character.

All too correct. But let's say that you gave into the converse of those passions, and due to some form of possession by your subconscious (which Sephiroth's relationship to Jenova can be reasoned as corresponding to) you let that search for glory and perfection dominate your life. Would you not become like Sephiroth? Indeed, could you be said to be, fantastic circumstances aside, similar to Sephiroth in most respects as regarding person and character?

Obviously you're not about to let yourself be overcome by your subconscious. But what would you think of someone who was in most respects like you, yet critically flawed as regards character to the point of self-annihilation and the pursuit of other's destruction? Would you not say such a person to be representative of the "essence" (to use snegledmaca's term) of Sephiroth?

I should say -- and I cannot emphasize this enough -- that I am not comparing you to Sephiroth character-wise. Not at all. There are merely strong correspondences of trait between you and the character, Sephiroth. I am arguing that most, if not all of those traits, are indicative of similar information processing patterns. (the study of which we consider a dimension of socionics) It seems to me reasonable that the designer of Sephiroth may have chosen to draw these traits from the experience of someone very like unto yourself traitwise, which would account for the correspondence of considered traits between you and the Sephiroth character.

On that same note, raisonpure, your description of yourself gives me a very solid apprehension of the INFP's mentality. Thank you.

[discojoe]

I just listened to the orchestral version, and they use the Japanese lyrics.

[Logos]

Does it matter?

[tcaudilllg]

It matters that he (discojoe) is being stubbornly persistent to the point of ignoring reality. If we can persuade him otherwise it would be beneficial because then the same persuasion technique could be used to make him aware of other aspects of reality he otherwise will not accept.

But we've strayed from the topic of the thread.

[KSpin]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SondXLF9HOs[/youtube]

Not a word of Japanese, until Sephy at the end.

[discojoe]

It matters that he (discojoe) is being stubbornly persistent to the point of ignoring reality. If we can persuade him otherwise it would be beneficial because then the same persuasion technique could be used to make him aware of other aspects of reality he otherwise will not accept.

But we've strayed from the topic of the thread.

I'm not being stubbornly resistant of anything. I'm just telling you what I am hearing, and what other websites seem to be confirming. All this means is that there are two versions of the song. I'm sorry if this situation is too technically complex for you to grasp.

[discojoe]

BTW, if you're right about the lyrics being in Latin, that's fine, but I can't tell just by listening to it, and the sources online conflict. If you have more persuasive evidence than the fact that you're a nerdy internet virgin, then present it.

[KSpin]

BTW, if you're right about the lyrics being in Latin, that's fine, but I can't tell just by listening to it, and the sources online conflict. If you have more persuasive evidence than the fact that you're a nerdy internet virgin, then present it.

Hmmm. Nerdy... maybe.... internet virgin... no...

The phonetic sounding of the words do not sound Japanese, and if you've seen the lyrics, such as "Sors imanis, et inanis" they definitely fit with the wording to the song.

[discojoe]

Hmmm. Nerdy... maybe.... internet virgin... no...

I wasn't talking to you.

The phonetic sounding of the words do not sound Japanese, and if you've seen the lyrics, such as "Sors imanis, et inanis" they definitely fit with the wording to the song.

A couple places on the internet are saying that in the "Japanese version" the background choir sings in Japanese, and in different versions it sounds like Latin.

[KSpin]

If there are two different versions, then fine, but the original is definitely latin.

http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/587/587940p1.html <--- It has the Japanese you are referencing to in that one, but I don't hear it like that.

[tcaudilllg]

If there are two different versions, then fine, but the original is definitely latin.

http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/587/587940p1.html <--- It has the Japanese you are referencing to in that one, but I don't hear it like that.

Obviously that's not a credible source.

I just listened to it last night. Definitely latin.

To erase all doubt, we'll do it by consensus.

http://www.ffextreme.com/ff7/music-p2.html

It's the 2nd song from the bottom.

As to the original topic of this thread, I think Seph shares raisonpure's IM-IE process, with the exception of his relationship to his subconsicous. The subconscious defintely dominates in his (Sephiroth's) case, as symbolized by his relationship with Jenova. The Jenova-Sephiroth connection is a physical manifestation of Sephiroth's unity with his subconscious.

[KSpin]

If there are two different versions, then fine, but the original is definitely latin.

http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/587/587940p1.html <--- It has the Japanese you are referencing to in that one, but I don't hear it like that.

Obviously that's not a credible source.

I just listened to it last night. Definitely latin.

To erase all doubt, we'll do it by consensus.

http://www.ffextreme.com/ff7/music-p2.html

It's the 2nd song from the bottom.

As to the original topic of this thread, I think Seph shares raisonpure's IM-IE process, with the exception of his relationship to his subconsicous. The subconscious defintely dominates in his (Sephiroth's) case, as symbolized by his relationship with Jenova. The Jenova-Sephiroth connection is a physical manifestation of Sephiroth's unity with his subconscious.

The only credible source you'll have is Nobuo Uematsu, the original composer of the piece.

[tcaudilllg]

If there are two different versions, then fine, but the original is definitely latin.

http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/587/587940p1.html <--- It has the Japanese you are referencing to in that one, but I don't hear it like that.

Obviously that's not a credible source.

I just listened to it last night. Definitely latin.

To erase all doubt, we'll do it by consensus.

http://www.ffextreme.com/ff7/music-p2.html

It's the 2nd song from the bottom.

As to the original topic of this thread, I think Seph shares raisonpure's IM-IE process, with the exception of his relationship to his subconsicous. The subconscious defintely dominates in his (Sephiroth's) case, as symbolized by his relationship with Jenova. The Jenova-Sephiroth connection is a physical manifestation of Sephiroth's unity with his subconscious.

The only credible source you'll have is Nobuo Uematsu, the original composer of the piece.

Yes, but he has played the piece in orchestra in the United States (two years ago, or was it three?) Gloriosa, Generosa.... Whatever... I'm not going to get in an endless INTp argument over it.

But about Sephiroth's type, INFp is definitely it. At first I couldn't really see it, but now I do: there is a definite superego relation between Sephiroth and Cloud. That seems to open up an interesting dimension: Cloud is representative of Sephiroth's super-ego even as Sephiroth is representative of Cloud's.

The "mirror" relation I observed had one constant: the topic was always Cloud's relationship to his friends and the world. Guilt... even in Kingdom Hearts, guilt over Cloud's inner darkness (function 7 no doubt) is Sephiroth's primary antagonism.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CDC9NlDN00[/youtube]

Very interesting: their types have persisted across games.

[KSpin]

Don't worry, I know how endless an INTp-INTj argument is. I tried being friends with one (INTj). He was a big Final Fantasy fan as it goes...

He'd usually try to argue a ridiculous point, like he'd say, "There is no way there are millions of people in England". I usually felt like hitting my head against a brick wall everytime he came out with something ridiculous like that. The thing was, he even knew he was wrong, he just wanted to argue.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Seriously, though, you could just look up this shit on wikipedia, which is always 100% accurate:

One-Winged Angel" (片翼の天使, Katayoku no Tenshi?, lit. "an angel with wings on one side") is a Latin choral track, composed by Nobuo Uematsu and produced by Nobuo Uematsu and Minoru Akao, which is featured in Final Fantasy VII. It is played during the battle with Safer Sephiroth. The title "One-Winged Angel" references the single large wing that is part of Sephiroth's body in his final form.

The lyrics were taken from the same medieval poetry featured in Carl Orff's Carmina Burana. The lyrics can be found in the songs "Estuans interius", "O Fortuna" ("Sors immanis..."), "Veni, veni, venias" and "Ave formosissima" ("Gloriosa" and "Generosa"). Although a vocal track, "Approaching Premonition," had already been written as early as in 1994 and appeared in the album Final Fantasy VI: Special Tracks, "One-Winged Angel" marked the first time in a Final Fantasy video game that a musical track featuring digitized voices appeared (other than non-lyrical "choir aah" sounds). Among Final Fantasy fans, it is one of the most well known pieces in a game to date.

[raisonpure]

Well, tcaud, if you insist on finding correlations between fictional characters and types, I think I'm more likely to become like Lain from Serial Experiments Lain if I completely give in. I've always thought of her as the ultimate Ni-INFp; she makes me wonder if the character designer was INFp and modelled her after him/herself. All the emphasis on abandoning the flesh to achieve a sort of merging, connecting to others, her addiction to information as a way of fulfilling "the desire to be copresent at all events" -- omniscience -> omnipresence, power over what's happening, control over the future course of events. If you're interested in researching INFps, you should look into that anime and not FFVII. I can't relate to Sephiroth, there's nothing I can learn from him... But there is a meaning to Lain and the development of her character that I can definitely relate to -- one that tempts me to unveil it someday.

Also... The vibe I give off is closer to Lain's: