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    Default Socionics as the psychoanalysis of our time

    I thought I'd write this in lieu of all the philosophical talk on the forum. I think this is important for everyone out there to know.

    How far are we really in the development of Socionics? We know about how relationships work, we know that types exist, and we know that we use specific functions to get things done. We all use it in our everyday lives for things like self-awareness, how to get along with a certain person, how to get that person to like you, etc. Socionics has really opened up our eyes to the mystery of human nature. Its importance is immense, and we are just about to the perfection of our system. We've almost got humans figured out, right?

    Let's go back 100 years in history, to the time of Freud and his psychoanalysis. Here we have a system of human nature that seemed pretty correct, at least to the psychologists working in the field. Great strides were to be made. The world would live by the creeds of psychoanalysis, and human nature would be a mystery no longer.

    A few decades later, everything fell apart.

    Now we come to, in my opinion, the greatest discovery made in psychology by any one man: B. F. Skinner's stimulus-response mechanism. This was not merely a new system in which to explain human behavior; it was the ultimate abstraction. Everything that a human did could, roughly, be explained in terms of a stimulus and a response. You drank your morning coffee (R), because you were thirsty (S). Simple enough, eh?

    Well, for more complex behaviors, the stimulus-response concept couldn't cut it. It would have taken too much to explain behavior by this system, and most of the time, certain stimuli were indeterminable. You would have had to know your entire past in great detail to find out why you were having dreams about killing your mother. This indeterminacy launched a new program called the social-cognitive learning theory. This was a theory that used stimulus-response concepts with other concepts found in the history of psychology. It was a compromise between extreme reductionism and generalizing.

    But the most important idea that stemmed from Skinner was that everything was now measurable. There was no such thing as the "mystical" or "unconscious" side of human nature. Nowadays, because of this discovery, psychologists know more about the human mind than we ever could have figured out from Freud's theory. Without Skinner, we would all still be in the dark, floating around on vague generalities.

    So what does this mean for Socionics? It means that Socionics is now roughly equivalent to Freud's theory of psychoanalysis. We've been observing people and theorizing our asses off, but for what? For piling up as many adjectives and adverbs onto type descriptions as we can, that's what. Socionics doesn't need more people sitting around theorizing anymore. What Socionics needs is a completely new perspective.

    What can we measure in Socionics? Nothing so far. And why not? Because we haven't reduced it to tangible objects yet. What we need is a philosophy of Socionics, something that describes the basic building blocks of human nature. We need a single dichotomy that explains our four dichotomies and the rest of them that people randomly come up with. Until we reduce Socionics to one basic concept, we'll never figure out the mystery of human nature.

    But don't despair. The seeds of this revolution have already been sown on this forum. There is one topic on here that was the real first push towards this philosophy. You just have to find it.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    personally i am more interested in what comes after that.
    Damn progressives...

    Well, no, what you are talking about and what I am talking about are two different things. I'm talking about ultimate reductionism; you are talking about "building up" from an incompletely-reduced base. I am interested in the pure essence of things; you are interested in what can come of that.

    I am your anti-ego, and you are mine. In essence, I am automatically trying to destroy what you create.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    "Well, no, what you are talking about and what I am talking about are two different things. I'm talking about ultimate reductionism; you are talking about "building up" from an incompletely-reduced base. I am interested in the pure essence of things; you are interested in what can come of that.

    I am your anti-ego, and you are mine. In essence, I am automatically trying to destroy what you create."

    But, if Socionics is correct in this particular case, shouldn't it be the OTTHER way around?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    But in relation to what you're INTERESTED in: shouldn't YOU be interested in the "essence" of things whereas he should be interested in "what is to come?"
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Default Re: Socionics as the psychoanalysis of our time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    What we need is a philosophy of Socionics, something that describes the basic building blocks of human nature. We need a single dichotomy that explains our four dichotomies and the rest of them that people randomly come up with. Until we reduce Socionics to one basic concept, we'll never figure out the mystery of human nature.
    The trouble, here, is that we are dealing with a very intangible subject. Even the concept of "nature" itself is a collective and generalized item. Could you elaborate on what you mean? What is it you want in this kernel of reductionary thought, that will open the doors to the way we are?

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    "Nature, by it's very essence, is not a rational thing."

    It kinda depends what part of nature you're talking about.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "Nature, by it's very essence, is not a rational thing."

    It kinda depends what part of nature you're talking about.
    Yeah, and I caught myself as I posted that. I elaborated a little.

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    Default Re: Socionics as the psychoanalysis of our time

    fdsf

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    At least someone's on top of things. :wink: I was being vague in order to find those that really want to work with me.

    i think i have already found the essence so i am looking at the things to come. i can't answer for cone however. also i am not "looking forward" per se but rather looking at the possible permutations of essence
    However, to me, your essences aren't reduced enough. Ti is just a picture of reality, not reality itself. So, if you found the essence of human nature, then why don't you ever tell us what it is?

    And isn't the "possible permutations of essence" looking forward? It's progression, isn't it, the rationalization of the universe?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Re: Socionics as the psychoanalysis of our time

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    Stop being vague cone! You're talking about this thread if anyone wants to read it.
    Damn... I knew that monster thread would come up again sometime! I tried as hard as I could to avoid it - it scares me. I'm going to go compose some music and wait until you hardcore types get a Cliffsnotes out.

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    Default Re: Socionics as the psychoanalysis of our time

    Quote Originally Posted by Baby
    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    What we need is a philosophy of Socionics, something that describes the basic building blocks of human nature. We need a single dichotomy that explains our four dichotomies and the rest of them that people randomly come up with. Until we reduce Socionics to one basic concept, we'll never figure out the mystery of human nature.
    The trouble, here, is that we are dealing with a very intangible subject. Even the concept of "nature" itself is a collective and generalized item. Could you elaborate on what you mean? What is it you want in this kernel of reductionary thought, that will open the doors to the way we are?
    I explained it with Skinner's stimulus-response mechanism. We need a system that can explain everything in terms of, well, stimulus-response (or at least something related to that.)

    The problem with the Alpha way of thinking is that they think that the more theories you create, the closer you'll get to the very essence. However, this is not true. Skinner didn't come up with his theory in this way. Instead, he looked at the organism as an inanimate thing, a computer that crunched numbers. A computer is run by one very simple concept: on-or-off states. Extrapolate this to organisms, and you have the very essence of nature. The hallmark of a truly genius mind is to be able to see everything as a derivative of only one thing.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Re: Socionics as the psychoanalysis of our time

    fdsf

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    "i think i have already found the essence so i am looking at the things to come. i can't answer for cone however. also i am not "looking forward" per se but rather looking at the possible permutations of essence"

    The possibilities?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    I explained it with Skinner's stimulus-response mechanism. We need a system that can explain everything in terms of, well, stimulus-response (or at least something related to that.)

    The problem with the Alpha way of thinking is that they think that the more theories you create, the closer you'll get to the very essence. However, this is not true. Skinner didn't come up with his theory in this way. Instead, he looked at the organism as an inanimate thing, a computer that crunched numbers. A computer is run by one very simple concept: on-or-off states. Extrapolate this to organisms, and you have the very essence of nature. The hallmark of a truly genius mind is to be able to see everything as a derivative of only one thing.
    Ah, I see what you're picking at. And with this "one thing" - the essence of all nature - we can build and explain the motivations behind human interaction; so, you're saying that the functions are manifestations of this essence, but not the essence itself.

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    "The problem with the Alpha way of thinking is that they think that the more theories you create, the closer you'll get to the very essence. However, this is not true. Skinner didn't come up with his theory in this way. Instead, he looked at the organism as an inanimate thing, a computer that crunched numbers. A computer is run by one very simple concept: on-or-off states. Extrapolate this to organisms, and you have the very essence of nature."

    That's funny, because I view the mind in the same exact way...

    "The hallmark of a truly genius mind is to be able to see everything as a derivative of only one thing."

    That's complete bull; reality isn't that simple.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "The problem with the Alpha way of thinking is that they think that the more theories you create, the closer you'll get to the very essence. However, this is not true. Skinner didn't come up with his theory in this way. Instead, he looked at the organism as an inanimate thing, a computer that crunched numbers. A computer is run by one very simple concept: on-or-off states. Extrapolate this to organisms, and you have the very essence of nature."

    That's funny, because I view the mind in the same exact way...
    Damn, my arrogance has gotten the better of me...

    "The hallmark of a truly genius mind is to be able to see everything as a derivative of only one thing."

    That's complete bull; reality isn't that simple.
    It's only bull if you believe that the physicists are at a major breakthrough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    yeah he is trying to be Ti. how do i say it in a non-asshat way? he can't see the on-offs yet all he can see is that they are there and only because i have been trying to attack him with them. :/ didn't work. he does the same with Ni to me
    Man, Pedro, you see the functions so, so much differently than I do. And to add to this thought, I am really starting to feel the effects of what Kim felt from the "ENFps are stupid" stereotype. It seems that everyone thinks INTps are just idiot savants who can predict the future.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Jungs ideas were bildt over the terms of subjectivity /objectivity and center /not centrallized- the rationality and irrationality. From this came extroversion, introversion, thinking types and so on.

    The modern psychology is Te. Socionics is Ne. Jungs ideas were Ni. Socionics shouldn't become into Te. Socionics should be Ni, or at least introverted,becaurse relations and models of psyche is relational thing and relational thing is introverted stuff. Also Socioncs and modern psychology are two different paradigmas.

    Sorry for not saing something improtant. I accidentally deleted my older version of this posting.
    Semiotical process

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    Ah, but nature cannot be defined as "on/off" in a way that cannot be explained more simply in another manner. According to one of the basic principles of reductionism, this means that the alternate explanation is true. Occam's Razor rips the "binary nature" hypothesis into pieces. Things are always more easy to explain as spectra than dichotomies. "0/1" methodology is much more complex and contrived than (0/0.1/0.2...0.9/1). And it is always easier to explain anything in all four dimensions: "0-1" methodology is much more hard to use and complex than "X = 0-1, Y = 0-1, Z = 0-1, Time =0-1". In order to explain anything fully, you need four pieces of information from different locations in the dimensions: What is done, how it is done, why it is done and when it is done.
    Example:
    I drink.
    A cup of coffee.
    Because I'm thirsty.
    I do it on the first of November 1986 at 19:05.
    Any piece of information is, by itself, useless. At least two are required in order to produce any kind of meaning. Three give you a general overview. All four together produce an exact message.
    Let's put this into linguistics, as well: A full sentence needs at least a subject and a verb. This gives a very sketchy outline of things. "Abraham" has no meaning. "Abraham walks" has one, but it's small. Introduce the third, and: "Abraham walks to the grocery store". It still gives meaning, but in order to fill it out, we need one more piece: "Every Thursday, Abraham walks to the grocery store".
    More can be added, but is not strictly necessary.

    That is as simple as nature can be: Four points, differently spaced, taken from as many spectra, producing a meaning.
    At least, according to Occam's razor.
    And, of course, alternate theories are available, and may well be more valid, but this is just to show that the "Binary Nature" hypothesis can't be true, according to the very belief that brought it forth.
    Beware! Nerd genes on the prowl.

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    "It's only bull if you believe that the physicists are at a major breakthrough. "

    Of if you think that the notion that everything should be attributed to one, single essence is merely an aesthetic one.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I'm going to tackle these issues one at a time per post, so this may take a while. I will get to each one of your posts, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    yeah he is trying to be Ti. how do i say it in a non-asshat way? he can't see the on-offs yet all he can see is that they are there and only because i have been trying to attack him with them. :/ didn't work. he does the same with Ni to me
    Indeed, it's true that I can only see that the on-offs exist, much less what they are. But in my great hesitancy to define the essence of Socionics, it seems that you, Pedro, are in fact being a bit too hasty to define things? I mean, you haven't answered my previous question: do you know the essence of Socionics?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    But in relation to what you're INTERESTED in: shouldn't YOU be interested in the "essence" of things whereas he should be interested in "what is to come?"
    "What is to come" somewhat deals with the rationalization of society, at least in Pedro's case. So no, I wouldn't be interested in that; that's a J concept. However, I am interested in what is to come as it pertains to warning about the future. Of course, I haven't told you that yet, so you wouldn't have known that.

    And I am in fact very interested in the "essence" of things. However, unlike the INTj, that essence always stays undefined, which is why INTps don't look like they care about understanding. It is only through INTjs, though, that I will ever be able to concretize my own thoughts.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Ok, now we are on the same wavelength, I hope...

    I think my problem with the essence of Socionics is that I keep seeing millions of dichotomies everywhere but nothing to link them all together. Although the more I study philosophy and psychology, the more correlations I see with Socionics and stuff outside of Socionics. And although I initially researched philosophy in order to get to the essence of Socionics, I am at the point now where I am integrating both of them together.

    I have an awesome book, Irrational Man, about existential philosophy. The whole fourth chapter, "Hebraism and Hellenism", is extremely important to understanding the Ti-Fe dualism. I just wish everyone could read it.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Great idea! That's kind of what my "crazy-ass theory club" thread was supposed to do, but nobody really seemed to want to theorize much.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    To be honest, I don't really accept Socionics as a valid psychological frame-work, just a fun game, so theorizing on it would be kind of hard. :/

    Sure, there's nuggets of truth in it, but the concept of "functions" seems to be a bit too hazy to me. I had to go through intellectual back-flips in order to reconcile the functions with modern neurological research(that I've read). It's safe to say that a particular function isn't limited to a particular area of the brain.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    It seems as though we are all discontent with the definition of functions. I suppose this is the part where we overthrow our God?

    I admit, alot of my current understanding of the functions is attributed to Smilingeyes' ideas. I currently think of them as general patterns of thought that give results that resemble the Socionics definition. Like for instance, Ti is not the "logic of correlation" but rather the function of "defined verbal reflection", or something like that. It's somewhat hard to explain.

    Fortunately, I am seeing some concrete results with redefining the functions of Socionics. Like for instance, I can show exactly how the 8th function in an INTp is derived solely from the two ego functions.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    I admit, alot of my current understanding of the functions is attributed to Smilingeyes' ideas.
    Playing the naive one here, but where are those ideas about the functions located?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    Right here.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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