ESTp's insecurities and admitting to lack of self-confidence (SLE)

[intjguy]

My estp insecure buddy/neighbor for 5 years is losing it. Oldham claims them to be self-confident, however he's admitted his lack of self-confidence to me and another close friend. Unfortunately over time, he's gone completely insecure about my relationship with him ( polr?), which pisses me off because we obviously have 5 years of loyalty and friendship in which he seems to have forgotten (weak suggestive ?).

A few questions are what I have.

1. Are all those who are weak in the need present time emotional support? I still have appreciation and love for friends that I have spent time with for up to 3 years in elementary school! Therefore, this is obviously something I can't understand.

2. How can I up an estps confidence? Tell them not to care about what other people think?
Hell, what's the reason for someone's self-confidence to be lowered in the first place? Is his hidden agenda/polr not being fed enough or what?

3. What's the easiest way for you to identify estps? I just want to make sure not to be so leisurely distant with these types.. if I care to.

Thanks. No one has to answer all these questions, individual ones in which you feel you can contribute are fine.

[Darkstar]

and you are 100% sure he's SLE?

I think the best way to help me is to say what my situation is and that that is fucked up and you need to suck it up and get normal. And after you've made it clear he is fucked up you just be there to be supportive. If he gets needy of you tell him he is a girl and should go and buy panties and a doll because that suits him.

OR

You can just take him on an extreme exercise period so he can feel what alive is and what's he has been missing.

I don't think it is type related. Just get the person involved in something so it can feel there are other things and make them feel alive. This is a superb moment for you to express some creativity and find something for this person. It should be a delifght.

[posablethumb]

well if youre gonna say the guy has low self-esteem, it's going to be his environment around him and how they treat him. how do people generally react to the guy? is this guy so unhealthy that he even repulses his dual INFp? can you elaborate on his personality please? you can't boost an ESTp's self-esteem by telling him not care what other people think about him, because that is where he gets it from in the first place. he has to have peer approval or he'll start thinking 'whats wrong with me?' and start feeling insecure about his position with people. you dont have to listen to me, because im the same person who thinks Se ppl are psychopaths.. the ones ive met..

[Expat]

Probably not ESTp.

[FDG]

What kind of insecurities does he have? Paranoia?

[ESTP]

i think i can safely say that my biggest fear in life is to be precieved by other people as ordinary...or just actually being ordinary...im pretty paranoid of everyone and I dont trust anyone actually...there for i think thats what makes me manipulative...i can say i tend to use people before they get a chance to use me

[Expat]

i think i can safely say that my biggest fear in life is to be precieved by other people as ordinary...or just actually being ordinary...

"Ordinary" as in, "not special or remarkable"?

im pretty paranoid of everyone and I dont trust anyone actually...there for i think thats what makes me manipulative...i can say i tend to use people before they get a chance to use me

But from this point of view, what would be your expectations from a partner?

- someone you somehow know won't manipulate you or use you - but if so, how would you know?
- someone you know you're using, more than being used by them
- or someone who you don't see as any threat and who will not see you as "ordinary", so you don't even worry about that?

[Blaze]

i think i can safely say that my biggest fear in life is to be precieved by other people as ordinary...or just actually being ordinary...

"Ordinary" as in, "not special or remarkable"?

im pretty paranoid of everyone and I dont trust anyone actually...there for i think thats what makes me manipulative...i can say i tend to use people before they get a chance to use me

But from this point of view, what would be your expectations from a partner?

- someone you somehow know won't manipulate you or use you - but if so, how would you know?
- someone you know you're using, more than being used by them
- or someone who you don't see as any threat and who will not see you as "ordinary", so you don't even worry about that?

good questions.

doesn't everybody "use" others, even if just a little bit, though?

[ESTP]

"Ordinary" as in, "not special or remarkable"?

Basically, if I do something, I like to do it in a profound way and 10 times better than anyone else has done it. I like to make an impression, be unique, and want everyone else to know it.

But from this point of view, what would be your expectations from a partner?

- someone you somehow know won't manipulate you or use you - but if so, how would you know?
- someone you know you're using, more than being used by them
- or someone who you don't see as any threat and who will not see you as "ordinary", so you don't even worry about that?

What I want in my partner is someone who can dish out as much at me as I can at them, and basically put me in my place. Someone who is capable of doing that but in a non-threatening sense. Who I know is doing it for my own good, rather than to someone who's out to get me...obviously. I can say, I'm pretty good at figuring out who those people are and who are the good ones (in my eyes).

When I say I manipulate people for my own good, I mean that as in I'll figure them out first and make my descisions about them...then if I precieve them to be not worthy of geniuine trust and whatnot...that's when I switch gears and say...how can I make this work for me... even tho this indivuidual isnt someone I would generally associate with. Power-play is what I'd like to call it.

[Blaze]

What I want in my partner is someone who can dish out as much at me as I can at them, and basically put me in my place. Someone who is capable of doing that but in a non-threatening sense. Who I know is doing it for my own good, rather than to someone who's out to get me...obviously. I can say, I'm pretty good at figuring out who those people are and who are the good ones (in my eyes).

i relate to this, i need somebody like that too.

[Khamelion]

Maybe he just needs some and .....?

[Gilly]

I don't see how people can possible believe that all SLEs are self-confident. Absolutely rediculous.

[XoX]

SLEs have just as much insecurities as other types. They have their weak functions just like everyone else. Fi insecurity being the most obvious. Another is Ni insecurity as in they can sometimes get pretty insecure about the future.

[olduser]

gilly: by all definitions/descriptions it is the foundation of the type. I think people see 'self-confidence' and think it prevails in every aspect of their life. Model A and the basis of socionics says this is not possible. Everybody has weaknesses. oh jeez, the person above said the exact same thing.

[Ezra]

SLEs have just as much insecurities as other types. They have their weak functions just like everyone else. Fi insecurity being the most obvious. Another is Ni insecurity as in they can sometimes get pretty insecure about the future.

Yes but they don't completely lose it as intjguy has described.

On the very few occasions I've felt insecure, a) it disappears within a few minutes and b) I handle it alone. People often believe my playful jabs at them are a result of my insecurities, but I can assure them it's not, and do so every time.

[Ezra]

I don't see how people can possible believe that all SLEs are self-confident. Absolutely rediculous.

I challenge you to come up with one. If there isn't one from this forum, there probably isn't one at all (provided there are more than 10 ESTps on this forum).

[Gilly]

No, the foundation of the SLE type is -not- self-confidence. It's the ability to assess power, not necessarily exert it. People TEND to be "strong" in the functions that Model A indicates as such, but if you understand what Socionics is about at all, you know that all that Model A guarantees is awareness in these areas. I know SLEs IRL who aren't very assertive or obviously "confident" in the ways that people typically assume of SLEs.

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

[Khamelion]

I don't see how people can possible believe that all SLEs are self-confident. Absolutely rediculous.

I challenge you to come up with one. If there isn't one from this forum, there probably isn't one at all (provided there are more than 10 ESTps on this forum).

I have to say, this is quite a ridiculous notion...


When a SLE is insecure it seems it can manifest in at least 2 different ways, they get mopey and have an obvious need for attention and support, or, they try to over compensate and "act tough", as though they have no weakness. Which looks like....

[Mea]

No, the foundation of the SLE type is -not- self-confidence. It's the ability to assess power, not necessarily exert it. People TEND to be "strong" in the functions that Model A indicates as such, but if you understand what Socionics is about at all, you know that all that Model A guarantees is awareness in these areas. I know SLEs IRL who aren't very assertive or obviously "confident" in the ways that people typically assume of SLEs.

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

Yes. This is true. People tend to stereotype SLEs as being aggressive & assertive. Not necessarily the case. I agree with you that it's their ability to assess power, not necessarily exert it. One of my close friends is SLE. He isn't constantly aggressive. I've seen people trying to pick fights with him at clubs. He handles it very well, without being aggressive. He turned that fella's request to fight down really coolly. Fun to watch.

[FDG]

I don't see how people can possible believe that all SLEs are self-confident. Absolutely rediculous.

I challenge you to come up with one. If there isn't one from this forum, there probably isn't one at all (provided there are more than 10 ESTps on this forum).

Somebody needs a course in statistics^

[Blaze]

estp's are insecure about expressing their innermost feelings. they absolutely will not do this, it's like it's their achilles heel or something. they can't understand other people's innermost feelings either and they make fun or turn the tables when they hear this. they are then sensitive to criticism of these behaviors when they hear it. you cannot tell they are insecure at these times, however, because they cover it up with more table-turning and insults.

[XoX]

SLEs have just as much insecurities as other types. They have their weak functions just like everyone else. Fi insecurity being the most obvious. Another is Ni insecurity as in they can sometimes get pretty insecure about the future.

Yes but they don't completely lose it as intjguy has described.

On the very few occasions I've felt insecure, a) it disappears within a few minutes and b) I handle it alone. People often believe my playful jabs at them are a result of my insecurities, but I can assure them it's not, and do so every time.

The ESTp I personally am closest to is imho surprisingly insecure. The thing is most people can't notice this because the person can sort of artificially generate determination which pushes the insecurities away from the person's own mind and also hides them from others. But the insecurities are there despite the fact that they can be pushed away. They surface on certain moments when they are very visible. It is almost like big part of the the ESTp determination comes from the fact that they desperately want to push away the feelings of insecurity which they don't allow for themselves. This is likely true for all aggressor / Se types but more so with Beta aggressors (ESTp and ISTj) who perhaps have more problems handling those feelings than Gamma aggressors (ESFp and ISFj).

[Ezra]

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

Gilly, you appear to be another one of these incompetent pseudo-psychologists who seems to think that my self-confidence is merely a cover up for a large amount of insecurities. You are most incorrect.

[Ezra]

I don't see how people can possible believe that all SLEs are self-confident. Absolutely rediculous.

I challenge you to come up with one. If there isn't one from this forum, there probably isn't one at all (provided there are more than 10 ESTps on this forum).

Somebody needs a course in statistics^

Quite right. That was a poor attempt at inductive reasoning.

[FDG]

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

Gilly, you appear to be another one of these incompetent pseudo-psychologists who seems to think that my self-confidence is merely a cover up for a large amount of insecurities. You are most incorrect.

Every fucking body has insecurities, now please stop making a fool of yourself.

[Ezra]

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

Gilly, you appear to be another one of these incompetent pseudo-psychologists who seems to think that my self-confidence is merely a cover up for a large amount of insecurities. You are most incorrect.

Every fucking body has insecurities, now please stop making a fool of yourself.

True. But this statement: "Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure" is inaccurate.

[Creepy-bg]

ESTp's have alot they should insecure about

(nah just kidding :wink: )

[Darkstar]

Well, Ezra how right you may ever be, this reaction is most suspicious


btw, insecurity and self confidence is not necessarily opposites of each other. You may be both at the same time and neither at the same time

[XoX]

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

Gilly, you appear to be another one of these incompetent pseudo-psychologists who seems to think that my self-confidence is merely a cover up for a large amount of insecurities. You are most incorrect.

Every fucking body has insecurities, now please stop making a fool of yourself.

True. But this statement: "Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure" is inaccurate.

Well if you really lack insecurities as much as you claim then you might be ESTj instead. ESTjs I know seem naturally pretty secure to me to the point of being annoying, heh. You just don't seem like an ESTj thus far. But there's not much to compare you to here. I still stick with with the ESTp but the Big Five test points to J type for you.

[Ezra]

Well, Ezra how right you may ever be, this reaction is most suspicious

How so, Darkstar? If you mean in that I'm reactive to people calling me insecure, it's because I want to get it into some people's thick heads that when I say that I am self-confident and that I am not insecure I mean that I am self-confident and that I am not insecure. I am a very literal person. For example, last night, I surprised myself by agreeing with a friend's metaphor when talking about the Enneagram gut types' defence mechanism in terms of building up a wall of cushions around oneself.

Well if you really lack insecurities as much as you claim then you might be ESTj instead. ESTjs I know seem naturally pretty secure to me to the point of being annoying, heh. You just don't seem like an ESTj thus far. But there's not much to compare you to here. I still stick with with the ESTp but the Big Five test points to J type for you.

Logically, then, from what you just stated, there is more evidence to point towards my being an ESTj than an ESTp. But you don't get that 'ESTj vibe' from me; am I correct?

[Slacker]

Insecurity and confidence aren't a good way to type people because different types might be insecure or confident for different reasons, and because most people go through stages where they are more and less secure through their lives. Type based on function use, Ezra

[Ezra]

Insecurity and confidence aren't a good way to type people because different types might be insecure or confident for different reasons, and because most people go through stages where they are more and less secure through their lives. Type based on function use, Ezra

Consider the Enneagram. How do you differentiate between a sx/so cp6, for example, and an 8? Simple: the 6 is characterised by underlying fear and insecurity, while the 8 is by definition self-confident. In this way, it is quite easy to determine a type by their level of confidence. An 8 will only feel insecure and not confident in the lower levels of health, and in the same way, a decisive 6 is only truly a confident, stable and secure individual when they reach the higher levels of health.

Thus, it would be quite easy to apply 'confidence' as a typical characteristic to a certain type within Socionics.

[Slacker]

I'm not personally a fan of the ennegram, and that makes me even more not a fan. One person might be very self-confident at 17, not self confident at all at 23, then self confident again at 30, etc.

[Slacker]

Read Rick's latest blog entry here

[Ezra]

Yes, Expat directed me to this a week ago or so.

It's an interesting article. Pretty much clarifies the fundamental principle that any enthusiast of any personality system (be it Socionics, Enneagram, MBTI, Big 5 or any other one) should observe: we all use every function; there is simply an imbalance in our use of the functions, and the result is our type or personality.

I understand where you're coming from. In some ways it stands up more in the face of logic than my own argument does.

[Gilly]

On the few occsions I've felt insecure,

Tool. Lots of what you've said on this forum already, including this arrogant bullshit, indicates that you're plenty insecure.

Sorry I can't pick up the insecure SLEs I know IRL and plop them down into the forum, but you serve as a perfect example, IMO.

Gilly, you appear to be another one of these incompetent pseudo-psychologists who seems to think that my self-confidence is merely a cover up for a large amount of insecurities. You are most incorrect.

No, I'm just not a complete idiot. People who really ARE self-confident don't feel the need to go spraying it everywhere like you do. If you had any confidence in your view of yourself as being such, you wouldn't feel the need to defend yourself. If I did this so an SLE who was ACTUALLY self-confident, like, say Herzy, she would say "lolz0rz" and just ignore me.

[Expat]

Consider the Enneagram. How do you differentiate between a sx/so cp6, for example, and an 8? Simple: the 6 is characterised by underlying fear and insecurity, while the 8 is by definition self-confident.

I'm not sure that that is accurate. One could also argue that 8's fear of being controlled is one form of insecurity.

I also think that that interpretation of 6s is not accurate, but then I look at the Enneagram from a socionics point of view.

[Darkstar]

Well, Ezra how right you may ever be, this reaction is most suspicious

How so, Darkstar?

[Insert what Gilly wrote] :wink:

[Ezra]

This is bullshit.

You just can't handle someone who feels good enough about himself to be able to talk about himself at length and have no problem with not 'covering up' things for modesty's sake. I'm not 'spraying it' everywhere. I haven't bigged myself up in any way. I've been truthful in everything I've said. I'm confident enough to say what is the truth.

This reminds me of the Trial of Socrates. Completely right, completely victimised unfairly, and deemed arrogant due to his pure self-confidence.

Accept the fact that what I am doing is because I am Ezra, and it is not due to my insecurities, or because of my 'image' that people have so spoken of. Accept the fact because it is true. Accept that I have accepted the fact that it is true. I know it is true.

[Mea]

This is bullshit.

You just can't handle someone who feels good enough about himself to be able to talk about himself at length and have no problem with not 'covering up' things for modesty's sake. I'm not 'spraying it' everywhere. I haven't bigged myself up in any way. I've been truthful in everything I've said. I'm confident enough to say what is the truth.

This reminds me of the Trial of Socrates. Completely right, completely victimised unfairly, and deemed arrogant due to his pure self-confidence.

Accept the fact that what I am doing is because I am Ezra, and it is not due to my insecurities, or because of my 'image' that people have so spoken of. Accept the fact because it is true. Accept that I have accepted the fact that it is true. I know it is true.

Actually, from the impression so far, everything you've said on the forums seems to point you trying to be someone you're not. Or that your perception of yourself and how people view you is totally different. And you being ESTp might be totally incorrect.