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    Default my type

    in a thread the other day somebody asked me what type i was and i responded, essentially, that i was unsure between ILI and LII. i was asked by someone to elaborate on why i keep doubting my type so strongly from the generally accepted typing here, which is ILI (although obviously several people have differing opinions). this post is an attempt to do that.


    basically, there are a lot of aspects of LIIs that seem to fit me quite well, and in some cases, explain deficiencies or inconsistencies in terms of my being ILI. some of these differences are more obvious than others. the fact is, that, in my own perception of what the functions are, neither ILI nor LII is really consistent with the way i behave.


    perhaps the single factor which most heavily contributes to my indecision is my perception that i use quite a lot of Ti. this is not a new issue. from the first day that i have spent here on the forum, people have claimed that my thought processes are Ti for a variety of different reasons, including that i try to maintain a logically consistent perception of the world around me. in fact, expat's recent thread about Ti being equivalent to an ever-unfinished encyclopedia of logical consistency makes a reasonable amount of sense. (what makes somewhat less sense is the suggestion that the material based in this encyclopedia is based on pure Ne-esque speculation with no connection to the outside world, in addition to the suggestion that it is intended to effect some sort of change for the benefit of mankind or for the benefit of others in terms of creating a logically correct system of thought.)

    my interests can also be said to line up with a very Ti-based perspective; obviously, the emphasis on science and mathematics, as well as everything to do with computer gaming and the internet, lack of socialization. many of these line up well with NiTe as well, but not so much certain things like a fervent interest in academia (mostly manifesting myself as a great deal of thought put into things like my choice of college) and other esoteric and frankly inexplicable nonsense (ie, a fascination with trains; it strikes me that this sort of thing is not type related).

    this is not necessarily to say that i don't use Te; because i have seen enough evidence in myself of a desire to get things done in a Te-related fashion, in addition to the concerns about efficiency which often characterizes Te types.



    the other major area of uncertainty is that of relations with others. obviously, in a discussion of relationships with others my word on their types is law; otherwise the whole thing is completely meaningless.

    this qualification aside, my relations with other people based on their types vary greatly. as a general rule, in most situations where my direct participation is not required (as in every social situation, always), i find that people mostly ignore me as the weird, quiet kid with the bizarre appearance who never says anything. this suits me perfectly fine. nevertheless, however unfortunate it may be, the world cannot escape from me entirely. i have had rather poor relations with representatives all of the SF types (although these have manifested themselves in a variety of different ways), but especially ESEs and ESIs.

    my experience with ESEs has been essentially negative, though it varies. i will spare UDP another rant about my grandmother, who is the most intellectually braindead and insanely overprotective person ever to exist. i cannot possibly imagine her as anything but an ESE.

    my health teacher last term is another effective example of conflict with extroverted SF types. i am really undecided as to whether SEE or ESE is better; at different points i typed her differently because my perception of my own type changed. a few things i am absolutely sure of: she was NOT my dual. she was definitely my conflictor. she had an IQ of about .03. she was obese as hell (though this is irrelevant to my perception of her, it is rather relevant in evaluating her position because everybody else in my school discriminates against her for being the most unhealthy health teacher imaginable; i rather discriminate against her for having the aforementioned IQ). i argued with her about the way that she was teaching her class (which was extremely lax, as well as uninformative) about every day. this is probably not very useful information. i will move on.


    alpha SFs in general seem to give me a hard time. my SEI spanish teacher, for example, runs a similarly lax class as the one above, inciting my complaint and my opinion that he's doing nothing at all to teach. nonetheless, i get along with him, sort of.


    ESIs, on the other hand, have posed a problem. one ESI family member (of sorts), who i had formerly mistyped as ESE for this reason (this was when i had first joined the site and believed myself to be ILI) has real problems with my "uncivil" demeanor, in that i don't say hello, or show common courtesy because i find these actions to be completely stupid; i would prefer largely that people just ignore me and let me be instead of insisting on engaging me in small talk. ESIs like her and some others have largely doused me in criticism for not respecting them or others, largely for the sort of inertial behavior described above and for times in which i am acting in a silly fashion and being intentionally lazy or stupid. to be honest, this criticism often really unnerves me, which is how i imagine an LII might react (sometimes, if i think the criticism is really unfair, it doesn't bother me as much and i just ignore it).


    i have had some good relations with SEEs, but in general they seem distant and uninterested in me. one example of a reasonably good experience i had with one was my lab partner last term, which was a situation in which we didn't have the opportunity to choose our own partners or interact voluntarily. he never did anything (he's not really a very smart guy) and i always ended up doing the labs myself, but in general we joked frequently and got along pretty well. it wasn't really much to speak of in terms of an actual relationship between the two of us.



    other relations can be fairly interesting. an SLE who i interact with on the baseball team (and, yes, i am on the baseball team at my school, though i don't play very often) epitomizes my confusion, because he essentially treats me like he would his supervisee. i don't feel supervised at all by him, but he clearly thinks i'm a pathetic wimp with no experience in the real world, much like most SLEs might seem to feel about LIIs.






    other basic reasons that i have continued to doubt my type are the confusion as to whether Ni is really my dominant function, and instances in which i have felt that Se makes sense as my polr and Si makes minimal sense as a role function, although the latter category i do not consider to be very influential.

    in brief, there are some aspects of Ni which i do not identify with very well and really never have. i think that the whole thing that Ni is a psychic prophet that can predict the future is way overblown, although there is unquestionably some merit as to Ni's ability to read the likely consequences of an action. the emphasis of Ni on imagery i have never really understood (although some people i have talked to on this forum agree that Ni is not necessarily defined by imagery). despite this and probably one or two other areas i'm forgetting, Ni obviously does fit very well as a dominant function in a myriad of ways: pondering about the future and past, complete torpor, an interest in mystical thought (in my case, mostly manifested as philosophy, and definitely not in the Ti sense of philosophy, which is just stupid), a relaxed and completely unconcerned demeanor, etc.



    a final word: please don't comment if you have nothing to say but "niffweed you are ILI because i have always imagined you to be ILI and you fit very well with that perception," as so many of you seem to do. obviously, your observation of me is limited to an internet forum and a photograph. this might change for the 3-day conference in august, but even that is a mere 3 days, in which all participants will undoubtedly be thinking about a number of socionic-related matters other than observing other people's types. if you can show me some real information of my habits here or analyze something in this post or others, then by all means do so, but leave out the mundane nonsense.

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    shit. this should be in whats my type. somebody please move it.

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    you are super cool imho, cooler than most INTjs except hotelambush and subterranean
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Default Re: my type

    You seem more LSI to me lol

    If hesitating between ILI and LII, I should say you sound more ILI-ish than LII-ish.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    LSI has been my impression ever since you posted that picture a while back. LSI or ILE are my two guesses; I'd say you're definitely a Ti type by all appearences, but Se seems to be neither your dominant function nor PoLR.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI has been my impression ever since you posted that picture a while back. LSI or ILE are my two guesses; I'd say you're definitely a Ti type by all appearences, but Se seems to be neither your dominant function nor PoLR.
    I didn't say he was LSI, it was a joke lol

    I said he could be an LSI because LSI's are narrow-minded lol

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    Since you are still in a stage where you "just wish everyone would leave you alone", it is not capable to tell based on the information you presented. The most difficult aspect of all of this is that your experience with people has been vastly limited to your encounters in high school. You have strongly identified with and built your self image around intellectual arrogance, and that will inhibit your ability to relate and understand people. In this way, you could be very . There are a few ILIs I know that very well understand the human-ness of people, the real world implications of "feelings".

    I have more often known leading types who have a similarly "inhuman" approach to people, especially when considering them below themselves. So in one way, dual seeking could be extremely justified.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I can say that you seem more ordered than I am. And your methodology in your thinking is alien to me, sometimes I have no idea what you are saying, and this is also true with UDP. This would, of course, mean that I believe you to be LII/INTj. However, don't take that at face value because I have no idea what I am talking about. Ever.

    Edit: I, too, sometimes don't say hello or good bye to people, but that isn't because I don't see the point, but because I either forget, or don't feel comfortable doing it.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    LSI has been my impression ever since you posted that picture a while back. LSI or ILE are my two guesses; I'd say you're definitely a Ti type by all appearences, but Se seems to be neither your dominant function nor PoLR.
    I didn't say he was LSI, it was a joke lol

    I said he could be an LSI because LSI's are narrow-minded lol

    Based on any of our past intractions, would you guess that anything you say has any bearing at all on my opinions? I never once referred to you or whatever you typed him as. What on God's green earth leads you to believe that I even read your posts?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I can relate somewhat to the criticism of school, and people, and in fact I was much as Niffweed described. Especially after the end of middle school, when some people I was 'friends' with decided to go in a different direction.

    University life is A LOT BETTER , so just gut it out until then - my advice.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    but Se seems to be neither your dominant function nor PoLR.
    why not?

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    I highly identify with your indecision for very similar reasons. I also think I use Ti a lot, and I don't view ESEs as particularly conflicting. However, around Gamma and Delta F types, I seem to use Te more, and my life patterns seem to reflect ILI more than LII.

    One suggestion: Might distinguishing between these two levels resolve some of the apparent contradictions?:

    1) Functional definitions based on cognitive strengths and interests
    2) Functional definitions based on structure of life decisions and behaviors

    It seems that Socionics typically assumes that these are aligned, but I'm not so sure.

    In the first category, Ti is seen as an interest and ability with considering things from the vantage point of pure logical consistency. With that definition, it would be be indicated by an interest and ability in mathematical reasoning, proving things, arguing based on internal logic rather than facts.

    But in the second category, Ti would be seen more as a life that unfolds in an internally consistent way. With that definition, it would be indicated by a tendency to follow paths that often seem obstinantly odd, and rigid to others, because they're based on internal consistency. People would, however, be impressed by one's tenacity with sticking "on principle" and the results that brings. In other words, a person's life itself would look like a mathematical theorem. However, one may not necessarily have an interest or ability in mathematics itself.

    Notice that the first definition (content-based Socionics) is fully compatible with what is usually understood as Ip temperament; the second (structural Socionics) is clearly Ij.

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    Niff, you give a totally different vibe compared to INTjs. I would also say you don't have Se PoLR. You're different. You like things open-ended. You don't have a personal opinion about most things. In my understanding, INTjs (as Ti dominants) have personal opinions about things, but they might not tell other people about it. INTps just don't have personal opinions so often, so they have nothing to tell. (The INTp Erkki constantly tells me things like, "I don't think anything about it. Stop asking me what I think. Whatever. Wear the blue one!"). You seem to have a very similar mindset - "it doesn't affect anything really, so why should I care."
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    (The INTp Erkki constantly tells me things like, "I don't think anything about it. Stop asking me what I think. Whatever. Wear the blue one!")
    i find myself saying this several times a day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    (The INTp Erkki constantly tells me things like, "I don't think anything about it. Stop asking me what I think. Whatever. Wear the blue one!")
    i find myself saying this several times a day.
    Definitely. At least when it comes to how things look... trivial things like that. I definitely have opinions on certain other things that aren't logical though, make no sense, or seem completely pointless.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

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    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    First, I agree with Kristiina.


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    in fact, expat's recent thread about Ti being equivalent to an ever-unfinished encyclopedia of logical consistency makes a reasonable amount of sense. (what makes somewhat less sense is the suggestion that the material based in this encyclopedia is based on pure Ne-esque speculation with no connection to the outside world, in addition to the suggestion that it is intended to effect some sort of change for the benefit of mankind or for the benefit of others in terms of creating a logically correct system of thought.)
    Yours is a valid criticism, and I don't think that TiNe is necessarily like that; TiNe can also create a fully consistent Klingon language and law system, for instance, which does not benefit mankind much. And it doesn't have to be fully disconnected from the outside world.

    I said that to emphasize the distinction between ISTj and INTj as in Stalin and Robespierre (where the latter's Ti and Ne obviously did have some connection to the outside world).


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    this qualification aside, my relations with other people based on their types vary greatly. as a general rule, in most situations where my direct participation is not required (as in every social situation, always), i find that people mostly ignore me as the weird, quiet kid with the bizarre appearance who never says anything. this suits me perfectly fine. nevertheless, however unfortunate it may be, the world cannot escape from me entirely. i have had rather poor relations with representatives all of the SF types (although these have manifested themselves in a variety of different ways), but especially ESEs and ESIs.
    I think that rules out LSI for you (if anyone really thought that), and suggests ILI rather than LII.


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    alpha SFs in general seem to give me a hard time. my SEI spanish teacher, for example, runs a similarly lax class as the one above, inciting my complaint and my opinion that he's doing nothing at all to teach. nonetheless, i get along with him, sort of.
    Taking the types at face value, obviously suggests ILI rather than LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    ESIs, on the other hand, have posed a problem. one ESI family member (of sorts), who i had formerly mistyped as ESE for this reason (this was when i had first joined the site and believed myself to be ILI) has real problems with my "uncivil" demeanor, in that i don't say hello, or show common courtesy because i find these actions to be completely stupid; i would prefer largely that people just ignore me and let me be instead of insisting on engaging me in small talk.
    You've just made a very good case as to why Fe is your PoLR. That is a PoLR view of Fe.


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    ESIs like her and some others have largely doused me in criticism for not respecting them or others, largely for the sort of inertial behavior described above and for times in which i am acting in a silly fashion and being intentionally lazy or stupid. to be honest, this criticism often really unnerves me, which is how i imagine an LII might react (sometimes, if i think the criticism is really unfair, it doesn't bother me as much and i just ignore it).
    Well, it seems that the ESI does not really know you well. ESIs are introverts and have LIEs as duals, so they expect others to try to talk to them and show Fe at the minimal-courtesy level. ESIs tend to like ILIs after they have a chance to know them better (typically with two introverts).


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    other relations can be fairly interesting. an SLE who i interact with on the baseball team (and, yes, i am on the baseball team at my school, though i don't play very often) epitomizes my confusion, because he essentially treats me like he would his supervisee. i don't feel supervised at all by him, but he clearly thinks i'm a pathetic wimp with no experience in the real world, much like most SLEs might seem to feel about LIIs.
    This is questionable. Especially in such a situation, SLEs tend to act as if others would need a "Se push", and expect others to welcome it; one reason why SLEs think LIIs are useless is because LIIs dislike, or are oblivious, to the Se push, so SLEs tend to think "that guy is hopeless". ILIs tend to welcome the Se push from SEEs, but that is in the context of establishing the Fi relationship and/or accomplishing common goals; the SLE uses Se to push others towards the direction determined by his Ti logic, which you as ILI would not necessarily agree to. SLE-ILI is Illusion, and Illusion is seeminly good until a point is reached where the weak functions come to the forefront, in this case, your not accepting his Ti and/or not seeing Fi in his actions.

    Also, remember that the SLE expects Fe from others, and he definitely doesn't get it from you; he may see you as "hostile" and his attitude to you is his "reaction".


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    in brief, there are some aspects of Ni which i do not identify with very well and really never have. i think that the whole thing that Ni is a psychic prophet that can predict the future is way overblown,
    Well that is a caricature of Ni, and it's indeed overblown; also, it is the Ni + Ti combination as in Beta that tends to be more confident in their "Ni visions", imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    although there is unquestionably some merit as to Ni's ability to read the likely consequences of an action. the emphasis of Ni on imagery i have never really understood (although some people i have talked to on this forum agree that Ni is not necessarily defined by imagery).
    Think of it this way.

    A Si focused person - thoughts tend to be occupied by what's physically in front of them
    A Ne focused person - thoughts tend to be occupied by variations of what's in front of them
    A Ni focused person - thoughts tend seemingly not to be related to what's physically in front of them, hence the "image" thing -- they go into the past, the future, alternate futures, or perhaps "worlds" seemingly not related to the Si focus at all

    Where, of course, Ne and Ni dominants can relate to both Ne and Ni here.


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    despite this and probably one or two other areas i'm forgetting, Ni obviously does fit very well as a dominant function in a myriad of ways: pondering about the future and past, complete torpor, an interest in mystical thought (in my case, mostly manifested as philosophy, and definitely not in the Ti sense of philosophy, which is just stupid), a relaxed and completely unconcerned demeanor, etc.
    This is a very good manifestation of Ni as dominant function.


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    a final word: please don't comment if you have nothing to say but "niffweed you are ILI because i have always imagined you to be ILI and you fit very well with that perception," as so many of you seem to do. obviously, your observation of me is limited to an internet forum and a photograph. this might change for the 3-day conference in august, but even that is a mere 3 days, in which all participants will undoubtedly be thinking about a number of socionic-related matters other than observing other people's types. if you can show me some real information of my habits here or analyze something in this post or others, then by all means do so, but leave out the mundane nonsense.
    This paragraph was full of Ni, Te, and zero concern for Fe.

    By the way, in London people were definitely observing each other's types, only some of them were obvious and did not require much thought.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    By the way, in London people were definitely observing each other's types, only some of them were obvious and did not require much thought.
    That's kind of interesting.

    Oddly, I find myself relating to most of what Niffweed says regarding Fe and SF types (as well as many of his posts in the past), except ISFps who seem to like me a lot. I think you have to go surprisingly deep to dig past the superficial similarities between quasis.

    Niffweed, from your initial description there is neutrality or negativity in your interactions with Alpha quadra types and neutral to better relations with types that share a gamma quadra value, like Se. Was the only thing pointing to not INTp over INTj an ISFjs criticism of you? That's not much at all. What I said earlier about the superficial similarities being similar might apply here because the weaker or subconscious functions are similar for them. The more you go into definitions of Ti or goals that are described with vague words the harder it is to distinguish types. And, putting those things aside, moving to more behavioral information, from a list of your relations it seems INTp comes out over INTj. Sorry if this was nothing new, just saying how i see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    By the way, in London people were definitely observing each other's types, only some of them were obvious and did not require much thought.
    That's kind of interesting.
    Well, as Rick reported, he thought that mine and Olga's types were clear and obvious, Kristiina's took some more observation, and electric's was fairly quickly reduced to either INTp or ISTp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    (The INTp Erkki constantly tells me things like, "I don't think anything about it. Stop asking me what I think. Whatever. Wear the blue one!")
    i find myself saying this several times a day.
    Definitely. At least when it comes to how things look... trivial things like that. I definitely have opinions on certain other things that aren't logical though, make no sense, or seem completely pointless.
    yeah! my mom asks me this sort of thing and has always asked me this sort of thing ("which dress would look better on me?" i have next to no opinions on these matters and don't like giving "fashion advice" by any means. worst question to ever ask me!)

    i also haven't had swimmingly excellent relations with ISFjs or ESFjs (to the point that i had even considered ENTp with ISFj as a conflictor,) so i don't think that's a good example. i find i have to be a little more extraverted, a little less obstinate, more polite, etc etc, than i normally am.

    the fact that you continually doubt your type and everything else in existence leads me to think INTp works quite well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    One suggestion: Might distinguishing between these two levels resolve some of the apparent contradictions?:

    1) Functional definitions based on cognitive strengths and interests
    2) Functional definitions based on structure of life decisions and behaviors

    It seems that Socionics typically assumes that these are aligned, but I'm not so sure.

    In the first category, Ti is seen as an interest and ability with considering things from the vantage point of pure logical consistency. With that definition, it would be be indicated by an interest and ability in mathematical reasoning, proving things, arguing based on internal logic rather than facts.

    But in the second category, Ti would be seen more as a life that unfolds in an internally consistent way. With that definition, it would be indicated by a tendency to follow paths that often seem obstinantly odd, and rigid to others, because they're based on internal consistency. People would, however, be impressed by one's tenacity with sticking "on principle" and the results that brings. In other words, a person's life itself would look like a mathematical theorem. However, one may not necessarily have an interest or ability in mathematics itself.

    Notice that the first definition (content-based Socionics) is fully compatible with what is usually understood as Ip temperament; the second (structural Socionics) is clearly Ij.
    ]


    an interesting suggestion, at any rate. for me it's very clear that the first one would apply reasonably well, whereas the second not at all.

    the problem is, however, that i'm not sure you can segregate interests and life behaviors. socionics more or less holds that both are a manifestation of the same functions, and that has held up well enough IME so i don't think there's any reason to challenge this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    (The INTp Erkki constantly tells me things like, "I don't think anything about it. Stop asking me what I think. Whatever. Wear the blue one!")
    i find myself saying this several times a day.
    Definitely. At least when it comes to how things look... trivial things like that. I definitely have opinions on certain other things that aren't logical though, make no sense, or seem completely pointless.

    yah; that was exactly my response. opinions about what dress to where are just stupid. opinions of, say, what candidate to vote for in the upcoming election are valid, and would be silly to say that ILIs don't have them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    in fact, expat's recent thread about Ti being equivalent to an ever-unfinished encyclopedia of logical consistency makes a reasonable amount of sense. (what makes somewhat less sense is the suggestion that the material based in this encyclopedia is based on pure Ne-esque speculation with no connection to the outside world, in addition to the suggestion that it is intended to effect some sort of change for the benefit of mankind or for the benefit of others in terms of creating a logically correct system of thought.)
    Yours is a valid criticism, and I don't think that TiNe is necessarily like that; TiNe can also create a fully consistent Klingon language and law system, for instance, which does not benefit mankind much. And it doesn't have to be fully disconnected from the outside world.

    I said that to emphasize the distinction between ISTj and INTj as in Stalin and Robespierre (where the latter's Ti and Ne obviously did have some connection to the outside world).
    fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    other relations can be fairly interesting. an SLE who i interact with on the baseball team (and, yes, i am on the baseball team at my school, though i don't play very often) epitomizes my confusion, because he essentially treats me like he would his supervisee. i don't feel supervised at all by him, but he clearly thinks i'm a pathetic wimp with no experience in the real world, much like most SLEs might seem to feel about LIIs.
    This is questionable. Especially in such a situation, SLEs tend to act as if others would need a "Se push", and expect others to welcome it; one reason why SLEs think LIIs are useless is because LIIs dislike, or are oblivious, to the Se push, so SLEs tend to think "that guy is hopeless". ILIs tend to welcome the Se push from SEEs, but that is in the context of establishing the Fi relationship and/or accomplishing common goals; the SLE uses Se to push others towards the direction determined by his Ti logic, which you as ILI would not necessarily agree to. SLE-ILI is Illusion, and Illusion is seeminly good until a point is reached where the weak functions come to the forefront, in this case, your not accepting his Ti and/or not seeing Fi in his actions.

    Also, remember that the SLE expects Fe from others, and he definitely doesn't get it from you; he may see you as "hostile" and his attitude to you is his "reaction".
    the thing is, that isn't quite it. for one thing, SLE-ILI is semi-dual, not illusion (or am i completely crazy?). under any circumstances, he wasn't really supervising me; he was more trying to stay as far away from me as possible.

    as an example, he gets in to fights with a lot of people, but he has never gotten into one with me because he doesn't want to touch me (this is mostly an issue of hygiene, in which i think he's overreacting completely to my comparatively bad habits). but, definitely, he doesn't try to talk to me, avoids whatever contact he can with me, and i get the impression that he does so simply because he perceives me as an undeserving pussy. he really doesn't even give me anything resembling the Se push at all.

    i suppose that this could be related to lack of Fe in my actions, but i kind of doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington

    Niffweed, from your initial description there is neutrality or negativity in your interactions with Alpha quadra types and neutral to better relations with types that share a gamma quadra value, like Se.
    well, this refers to alpha SFs. i get along very well with ILEs and reasonably well with LIIs (although it is interesting; i have found some LIIs to be very annoying by pestering me with demands for FeSi by deprecating themselves and feigning discomfort)

    Was the only thing pointing to not INTp over INTj an ISFjs criticism of you? That's not much at all. What I said earlier about the superficial similarities being similar might apply here because the weaker or subconscious functions are similar for them.
    perhaps i didn't explicate this very well: the criticism itself was inconsequential. it was my great discomfort (which i did not immediately express) upon receiving this criticism, and particularly Se-laden criticism that led me to confusion.

    discomfort upon receiving FiSe is not completely uncommon. i should describe some other relations of SEEs that shed some light on this situation.

    briefly, because i have to run out the door: my 1st term english teacher sophomore year was somebody who i highly believe to be an SEE. in large measure, i simply found the class boring; all the books (including pride and prejudice... aaagggh) were terrible, with one exception (candide). the class was graded in an extremely lax manner; the teacher's reputation was that all grades approximated an A-. the teacher and i worked up a great deal of animosity when she actually came to grading my work; it was especially evident in the first essay after she assigned a random grade to it and then was not able to find defects in the essay when i came to complain.


    hmm... this picture is basically too positive. i can't really explain it, but issues like these set off great disagreements between the two of us. the way i've described it is not very supportive of conflicting relations with her, but i had reason to believe that they were.

    The more you go into definitions of Ti or goals that are described with vague words the harder it is to distinguish types.
    yeah; that's just a result of me not wanting to rehash old information over and over (and me not remembering it). you may just have to take me on my word that a LOT of aspects of Ti seem to fit very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    the thing is, that isn't quite it. for one thing, SLE-ILI is semi-dual, not illusion (or am i completely crazy?).
    No, I'm the one who's crazy -- semi-dual, you're right. But the functional analysis stands.


    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    as an example, he gets in to fights with a lot of people, but he has never gotten into one with me because he doesn't want to touch me (this is mostly an issue of hygiene, in which i think he's overreacting completely to my comparatively bad habits). but, definitely, he doesn't try to talk to me, avoids whatever contact he can with me, and i get the impression that he does so simply because he perceives me as an undeserving pussy. he really doesn't even give me anything resembling the Se push at all.

    i suppose that this could be related to lack of Fe in my actions, but i kind of doubt it.
    Perhaps for his understanding of people, or Aristocracy, someone with your habits is someone to stay away from.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I think niffweed's problem is that his IQ is about a million times higher than the people around him .

    If I was with a incredibly fat health (sports teacher?), it would be a huge source of amusement to me, which I would tell jokes about later after class. If they started talking about the benefits of exercise + healthy diet etc. in a really arrogant way (i.e. oblivious to the irony), I would probably walk past and say things such as 'Let me just squeeze past...' or I'd ask a question like 'what about people who never seem to be able to look after their bodies, no matter how hard they try?'. I don't think I would be as angry as niffweed about a teacher who was too lax (it wouldn't be my 1st concern, especially not in a sports class) - when I had a ESFp teacher, it was the blatant discrimination the teacher had against certain groups of people that really drove me up the wall. A general problem with teachers was the inability to control those who were disturbing the atmosphere - I didn't care about students having a 'bohemian' style to learning - it sorta appealed to me and wasn't really my concern. It was the people throwing chairs across the room and insulting each other I had a problem with .

    From my own experience, I just do not get on with ESFps at all - I don't see another INTj being able to get on joking terms with one. Apart from all the hostile comments about my lack of sexual experience, their response to me throwing tennis balls at them 'as a joke' after they made fun of me volleying a ball into the wrong court, one of them tried to rape me in front of a whole class, which I didn't like very much. I just find them too direct, and always grinding down at my mood.

    Don't ISFjs scrutinise everybody in the way described? - maybe it's a sign of misdirected concern (anyway, hard to tell - I can't determine what Niffweed's exact response was - I would personally react noisely to such attention, rather than look quiet and disgruntled. With ISFjs I have to get one with, I would just go 'mmmm, yes' angrily.

    So, judging from that, I would say Niffweed is INTp > INTj (I don't know about other types though). If he is INTp, he's my favourite one on these forums (in the whole world actually) - I can sympathise with much of what he says in his posts in this thread (being a Gamma type, he won't like that ).
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    but Se seems to be neither your dominant function nor PoLR.
    why not?
    Just my impression. You don't seem to have any problem confronting people, being vulgar, or projecting an image of superiority (which you do, sometimes), but that's certainly not what you're all about (such, at least, is my impression).
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    (The INTp Erkki constantly tells me things like, "I don't think anything about it. Stop asking me what I think. Whatever. Wear the blue one!")
    i find myself saying this several times a day.
    Definitely. At least when it comes to how things look... trivial things like that. I definitely have opinions on certain other things that aren't logical though, make no sense, or seem completely pointless.
    yeah! my mom asks me this sort of thing and has always asked me this sort of thing ("which dress would look better on me?" i have next to no opinions on these matters and don't like giving "fashion advice" by any means. worst question to ever ask me!)

    i also haven't had swimmingly excellent relations with ISFjs or ESFjs (to the point that i had even considered ENTp with ISFj as a conflictor,) so i don't think that's a good example. i find i have to be a little more extraverted, a little less obstinate, more polite, etc etc, than i normally am.
    Just to avoid misinterpretations, he also lacks opinions about most other stuff. "Honeeeey, please just tell me - what are your views about a possible honeymoon? ... But what would you prefer? You must have some opinions!", "I wish you'd just tell me what you think about it - was it a good idea to decide that?" after some persuation I finally get an answer out of him and it's something like, "If I hadn't thought it was a good idea, I wouldn't have gone along with it. Duh. ".
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
    New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/

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    @ Kristiina: Same here. Anything that is my personal preference that involves sensations or feelings I just cannot give a preference, but if there were some logical reason for going to a certain place, over another, then I expect he will you give you a reason. A logical reason could be that there is a volcano erupting, or there is a war currently being fought in the general location of the proposed honeymoon.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Just to avoid misinterpretations, he also lacks opinions about most other stuff. "Honeeeey, please just tell me - what are your views about a possible honeymoon? ... But what would you prefer? You must have some opinions!", "I wish you'd just tell me what you think about it - was it a good idea to decide that?" after some persuation I finally get an answer out of him and it's something like, "If I hadn't thought it was a good idea, I wouldn't have gone along with it. Duh. ".
    no, i know what you mean. i just particularly really dislike being asked my opinion on fashion things because i am extremely unsure whenever i give a response about this (apparently ISTjs will do this gladly for you, right?) generally, yeah, i'll go along with a great deal of things and sort of do whatever unless it's an extremely bad idea, like what kspin mentioned.
    6w5 sx
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    sloan - rcuei

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Just to avoid misinterpretations, he also lacks opinions about most other stuff. "Honeeeey, please just tell me - what are your views about a possible honeymoon? ... But what would you prefer? You must have some opinions!", "I wish you'd just tell me what you think about it - was it a good idea to decide that?" after some persuation I finally get an answer out of him and it's something like, "If I hadn't thought it was a good idea, I wouldn't have gone along with it. Duh. ".
    yah, a proposed honeymoon is still not something an ILI cares about. an ILI cares about the tangible things that he needs to care about to get on with life, perhaps some of his own devices for amusement, but certainly nothing relating to fashion or any of the bullshit that you seem to be spouting that should constitute some sort of opinion.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    An ILI might care about a honeymoon as much as anyone else. Christ...some of you people act like Fi-preference types want nothing to do with culture, tradition, societal values...it's a myth, people.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Default Niffweed

    Probably ESTJ, IMHO.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Interesting.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I think niffweed's problem is that his IQ is about a million times higher than the people around him .
    yes, that must be it. you've shed a great deal of light on the situation. you may go now.

    If I was with a incredibly fat health (sports teacher?), it would be a huge source of amusement to me, which I would tell jokes about later after class. If they started talking about the benefits of exercise + healthy diet etc. in a really arrogant way (i.e. oblivious to the irony), I would probably walk past and say things such as 'Let me just squeeze past...' or I'd ask a question like 'what about people who never seem to be able to look after their bodies, no matter how hard they try?'. I don't think I would be as angry as niffweed about a teacher who was too lax (it wouldn't be my 1st concern, especially not in a sports class) - when I had a ESFp teacher, it was the blatant discrimination the teacher had against certain groups of people that really drove me up the wall. A general problem with teachers was the inability to control those who were disturbing the atmosphere - I didn't care about students having a 'bohemian' style to learning - it sorta appealed to me and wasn't really my concern. It was the people throwing chairs across the room and insulting each other I had a problem with .

    From my own experience, I just do not get on with ESFps at all - I don't see another INTj being able to get on joking terms with one. Apart from all the hostile comments about my lack of sexual experience, their response to me throwing tennis balls at them 'as a joke' after they made fun of me volleying a ball into the wrong court, one of them tried to rape me in front of a whole class, which I didn't like very much. I just find them too direct, and always grinding down at my mood.
    a distinction: this is a health teacher. this is nothing to do with sports; rather, the curriculum consists of: "don't do drugs. if you do drugs your neurons will misfire, you will develop emphysema, and your head will explode" (minus the technical terminology).

    usually, your comment about students "disturbing the atmosphere" is not really a problem at my school; i go to a school for smart people. this doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't morons who do idiotic things and get their asses suspended, but generally it happens in a much lesser proportion than at a school in the ghetto. it's difficult for me to determine the extent to which this is the difference between your problem with your teacher and mine with mine.

    Don't ISFjs scrutinise everybody in the way described? - maybe it's a sign of misdirected concern (anyway, hard to tell - I can't determine what Niffweed's exact response was - I would personally react noisely to such attention, rather than look quiet and disgruntled. With ISFjs I have to get one with, I would just go 'mmmm, yes' angrily.
    to clarify, i don't remember but in situations like this it's probably likely that i didn't really show any outward response, other than perhaps noticeably disagreeing with the criticism, conceivably demonstrated by me shaking my head. i certainly didn't confront the party in question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    An ILI might care about a honeymoon as much as anyone else. Christ...some of you people act like Fi-preference types want nothing to do with culture, tradition, societal values...it's a myth, people.
    i know this isn't true.
    6w5 sx
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    sloan - rcuei

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    EJ mentality:
    Hard not to get involved, i.e. constant need to spam the forum with pointless nonsense.
    Ni PolR displayed by dislike of religion and many novelties.
    Reinin dichotomies seem to fit too.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Usually, your comment about students "disturbing the atmosphere" is not really a problem at my school; i go to a school for smart people. this doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't morons who do idiotic things and get their asses suspended, but generally it happens in a much lesser proportion than at a school in the ghetto. it's difficult for me to determine the extent to which this is the difference between your problem with your teacher and mine with mine.
    I know exactly where you're coming from. Mostly people at my school were actually interested in learning, but there was a small clique that just wanted to make fun of the teachers, and sit at the back of the class being complete dickheads.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    EJ mentality:
    Hard not to get involved, i.e. constant need to spam the forum with pointless nonsense.
    ??

    Ni PolR displayed by dislike of religion and many novelties.

    !!!?????!??!??!?????!!??!!??!?!??

    Reinin dichotomies seem to fit too.
    !???!?!?!??!?!!?!??!??!?!?!?!!!!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?! ?!?!??!!??!???!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    An ILI might care about a honeymoon as much as anyone else. Christ...some of you people act like Fi-preference types want nothing to do with culture, tradition, societal values...it's a myth, people.
    you fail to understand. it's not merely lack of Fe; it's Ni: "i couldn't care less about my surroundings. leave me alone to my thoughts."

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    EJ mentality:
    Hard not to get involved, i.e. constant need to spam the forum with pointless nonsense.
    ??

    Ni PolR displayed by dislike of religion and many novelties.

    !!!?????!??!??!?????!!??!!??!?!??

    Reinin dichotomies seem to fit too.
    !???!?!?!??!?!!?!??!??!?!?!?!!!!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?! ?!?!??!!??!???!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!???
    I knew you would appreciate my input.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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