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Thread: How to recognize Alpha Quadra types in new settings

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    Default How to recognize Alpha Quadra types in new settings

    When you are in social settings with new people or even people you only know decently well, what signs do you look for in order to determine whether or not they are one of the four Alpha Quadra types?
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    I usually notice ISFps because they are complaining about someone putting their elbows on their arm, or just generally being quite irritable, but importantly, they only do this for a few seconds before going back to normal mode. They seem quite pixie-like - they usually have a small body frame, but seem to be in many places at once - their body movement seems dictated by their mood. They slouch towards a person, or jerk their shoulders erratically etc.

    ENTps nearly always tend to have a smile on their faces, as though they have just put laxative in your drink. Their smile seems quite fake, as though they rehearsed it as a part of an act - they often actually admit their fakery, saying they are recreating 'acceptable social behaviour' and that in reality, they have no moral backbone (which is the source of their jokes). It's as though they put on a standard smile so that their real expression doesn't show - in reality, they make look quite pensive and lost, but they put on the smile, often so they deliberately look weird. E.g. if they have their normal face, people will think they general are weird, but if they put on a fake face, people will think they are being weird for the sake of being weird.

    I think it's part of the Alpha mood to joke about deceiving people, in a light hearted way. INTjs are similar too ENTps in the way they speak, obviously.

    If INTjs are joking about their darkest fears, what they are saying will probably be a true reflection of how they feel...but it's so 'obviously' exaggerated, they can always deny it, or evade attention by exaggerating about something else. I can talk about a blade of glass with the same passion\gloom that I talk about climate change etc., and people will genuinely been taken in sometimes - but I don't think there is much of a difference between when I'm talking seriously and when I'm trying to be humourous. If there was, people might think I'm a fraud, e.g. I don't take something seriously enough, or I'm trying too hard to be funny. If you see INTjs, (when you are a INTj...or am a ENTp... ), you think 'shit, I don't look that glum when I'm thinking about things, do I? The expression on their face looks familiar, as though if you've inadvertently seen your reflection in the mirror. If they are putting on an 'introspective' performance in the corner somewhere, you might initially think they are INTp, but when you talk to them, you realise they have a most 'reasonable' way of thinking...similar ro your own in fact . I haven't met many, but they seem to be sat away from everyone else, even when they are talking sometimes (but I know that's not always true, at least from knowledge about how I act) - they don't seem to be doing much, and from a distance, seem to be whispering to the table rather than speaking loudly to those nearby. It might appear they are holding the table tightly and are trying to push it over, or they might rotate their wrists + stretch\extend their fingers into weird shapes while they are idling about or talking.

    ESFjs are absolutely amazing, of course. They one I knew very well was initially very irritating, but I never knew why. In Religious Education classes, she was the one who was always talking in class discussions (a monologue would have been a better term). The way she argued things sounded like me thinking (but me being unable to speak ). I always wanted to intervene where I felt she misunderstood something, but I felt unable to, because her arguments always seemed well-balanced and fair, with only mind-numbingly boring details left out. So, yeah, I enjoyed talking to her...when I saw she was a reasonable person that I could confide in (I didn't necessarily need to do that, we seemed to understand each other well), the dialogue between us was always expressive and warm...it felt like a safe environment to be in. I kept my problems to myself, while she talked about her sadness for other people's problems...I felt I had to play down or joke about my problems to avoid upsetting her or getting too much attention (Impossible, I here you say ). ESFjs always seem to have a smile on the face, like ENTps, but it seems more genuine and yet more uncertain - they have a look as though there's something troubling them, but they'd rather not show it sometimes (but the smile is still genuine). I think the INTjs 'smile of faint irritation' matches the ESFj's smile - I think this is due to these types have a similar humour style. E.g. if a INTj says something with a grain of truth, but obviously exaggerated, such as 'I've just been beaten up, but I think I'll still be able to write with my left foot', the ESFj will have a faint look of concern on their face which looks like the INTjs irritation at being beaten up.
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    I found the above descriptions of body posture to be somewhat accurate.

    But I feel unrelated to the general alpha atmosphere that seems to be presented. Too immature almost.
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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    When you are in social settings with new people or even people you only know decently well, what signs do you look for in order to determine whether or not they are one of the four Alpha Quadra types?
    Fe values are fairly easy to see in social settings. Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).

    A good test for Alpha-ness is to make a Seinfeldian observation (i.e. something illogical in a funny sort of way that is overlooked in everyday life) and see whether they are open to the line of thought, though not necessarily agreeing with it.

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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).
    How did you find out about this method of classification? This sounds like a gross over-simplification and is simply not supported by theory or evidence.
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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    When you are in social settings with new people or even people you only know decently well, what signs do you look for in order to determine whether or not they are one of the four Alpha Quadra types?
    Fe values are fairly easy to see in social settings. Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).

    A good test for Alpha-ness is to make a Seinfeldian observation (i.e. something illogical in a funny sort of way that is overlooked in everyday life) and see whether they are open to the line of thought, though not necessarily agreeing with it.
    i don't think this is very accurate either. since when is always linked to disgust or to friendliness/amicability?
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    I found the above descriptions of body posture to be somewhat accurate.

    But I feel unrelated to the general alpha atmosphere that seems to be presented. Too immature almost.
    Then would you mind creating a field guide description of the "general alpha atmosphere" to which you could relate?
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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirk Satellite Div.
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).
    How did you find out about this method of classification? This sounds like a gross over-simplification and is simply not supported by theory or evidence.
    Of course it's an oversimplification. I took that as what Logos was asking for.

    And no, it has been confirmed by my own experience. I don't see how you can criticize this when you only determined your own Fe/Fi preference a short while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    When you are in social settings with new people or even people you only know decently well, what signs do you look for in order to determine whether or not they are one of the four Alpha Quadra types?
    Fe values are fairly easy to see in social settings. Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).

    A good test for Alpha-ness is to make a Seinfeldian observation (i.e. something illogical in a funny sort of way that is overlooked in everyday life) and see whether they are open to the line of thought, though not necessarily agreeing with it.
    i don't think this is very accurate either. since when is always linked to disgust or to friendliness/amicability?
    I meant Fi types would be disgusted in response to Fe without Fi (i.e. sociability without any relationship), which they might view as invasive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    E.g. if a INTj says something with a grain of truth, but obviously exaggerated, such as 'I've just been beaten up, but I think I'll still be able to write with my left foot', the ESFj will have a faint look of concern on their face which looks like the INTjs irritation at being beaten up.
    It is just that some of these examples do not apply - I would never say anything remotely like that to anyone.

    But I agree about a lingering look of irritation and an lingering look of concern for the LII and ESE.



    This may be from an LII only standpoint, but I can relate: when ISFps are described as their bodies acting detached from their mood. Perhaps this is because they are the irrational vesion of what we are looking for, Si before Fe. But I can relate to that alot. One ISFp confused me for the longest time because of this.
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    cool topic, actually.

    re: seinfeldian humor. agree with this. i think alpha (and beta a little bit) loves discussion about life's minutia. the positives and negatives of 4 track razors, make up that does wonders, annoying drivers, etc etc etc. how to get your partner to do what you want. all that stuff. humor and laughing is a major aspect, too. some intj style dead pan humor, some entp anti-Fi humor; esfj's have like a good natured, non-offensive sense of humor, isfp - they seem kinda like bionicgoat, sort of irreverent or something.

    not sure about the "fake" entp smile....to me it's more flirtatious than fake. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    cool topic, actually.

    re: seinfeldian humor. agree with this. i think alpha (and beta a little bit) loves discussion about life's minutia. the positives and negatives of 4 track razors, make up that does wonders, annoying drivers, etc etc etc. how to get your partner to do what you want. all that stuff. humor and laughing is a major aspect, too. some intj style dead pan humor, some entp anti-Fi humor; esfj's have like a good natured, non-offensive sense of humor, isfp - they seem kinda like bionicgoat, sort of irreverent or something.
    I'm beta and I love that type of banter. It totally makes my day to find someone willing to talk to like that. My husband is ESFj and it's really fun when he's in that type of a mood. My dad and brother are ISFp and when we are all together, the conversation is ridiculously hilarious. I can remember as a kid literally falling down from the dining room table and rolling on the floor with laughter because the two of them were being so funny in the *weirdest* of ways. Yes, very irreverent. My mother (whom I haven't typed yet) would sit there and roll her eyes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    E.g. if a INTj says something with a grain of truth, but obviously exaggerated, such as 'I've just been beaten up, but I think I'll still be able to write with my left foot', the ESFj will have a faint look of concern on their face which looks like the INTjs irritation at being beaten up.
    It is just that some of these examples do not apply - I would never say anything remotely like that to anyone.
    That's because you and Subterranean are on opposing context lines, UDP. You seem to be saying that because he doesn't agree with you, what he describes could not be INTj behavior.

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    seemingly defines Alpha Quadra more than the other functions.

    Maybe we should we set scenarios for spotting Alphas in different fields? i.e. How to Spot Alphas in the Classroom. How to Spot Alphas at a Party. How to Spot Alphas in the Work Place. How to Spot Alphas in Organizations., etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    seemingly defines Alpha Quadra more than the other functions.
    Why?

    Maybe we should we set scenarios for spotting Alphas in different fields? i.e. How to Spot Alphas in the Classroom. How to Spot Alphas at a Party. How to Spot Alphas in the Work Place. How to Spot Alphas in Organizations., etc.
    Ideally (as well as practically) it is the same, especially since Alphas, being in an Ne/Si quadra, avoid changing themselves simply for the sake of professionalism, or because they are supposed to act a certain way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    seemingly defines Alpha Quadra more than the other functions.
    Why?
    Because we are the Quadra defined as the childish ones who love pleasure, comfort, and impractical enjoyment.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Maybe we should we set scenarios for spotting Alphas in different fields? i.e. How to Spot Alphas in the Classroom. How to Spot Alphas at a Party. How to Spot Alphas in the Work Place. How to Spot Alphas in Organizations., etc.
    Ideally (as well as practically) it is the same, especially since Alphas, being in an Ne/Si quadra, avoid changing themselves simply for the sake of professionalism, or because they are supposed to act a certain way.
    True. Waldo looks the same no matter what crowd he is in, but there are still different practices of behavior in these different places. At a party an INTj may be on the sidelines, but the ESFj is dancing in the crowds. But should I expect spotting a dancing queen ESFj in a classroom? How often should I expect "Seinfeldian" humor to arise from students in a classroom or lecture setting? And sometimes since we do not change ourselves, it has certain causes of response. We may be the same people no matter where we go, but we still respond to environmental stimuli in different ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    E.g. if a INTj says something with a grain of truth, but obviously exaggerated, such as 'I've just been beaten up, but I think I'll still be able to write with my left foot', the ESFj will have a faint look of concern on their face which looks like the INTjs irritation at being beaten up.
    It is just that some of these examples do not apply - I would never say anything remotely like that to anyone.

    But I agree about a lingering look of irritation and an lingering look of concern for the LII and ESE.
    I think I do this because I feel guilty about someone caring too much...If I joke about it, or exaggerate it, I can still get a lot of sympathy, because ESFjs (at least that one) care for people who have such a bittersweat way of describing life. If I told a Ego type that I had fallen down a cliff, I have to be careful of showing even the remotest hint of a whine in my voice, lest they accuse me of exaggerating about my broken leg etc. - joking about the incident would be completely out of the question, because not only would they think you lied about it, they would think you morbid too. With a ESFj (and also ISFps to a lesser extent), even a paper cut is treated with the greatest attention...it's as though they need an excuse to get close to you .

    Quote Originally Posted by diamond8
    not sure about the "fake" entp smile....to me it's more flirtatious than fake. :wink:
    Maybe 'fake' is the wrong kind of word...it would be a bit like saying a ISFp fakes their moods. I think what I mean is that they seem to smile even during very grim times - as though they are sharing an experience with those around them, and have to say the last thing that should ever be said in such a situation. Because it's obviously the wrong thing to have said, people will know (or should know ) they are joking, which improves the unity of the group (at least if it's an Alpha crowd). Their behaviour sort of forbides people to hide away their gravest fears, because they have been exposed and joked about amongst the group - things can only get better.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    But I feel unrelated to the general alpha atmosphere that seems to be presented. Too immature almost.
    I probably have described my interaction with the types somewhat irreverently, but I did discuss how Alpha types do have serious concerns about the world, but are unable to come across as doomsayers as a INTp or ENFj type might. I personally joke about things I have very seriously considered over a long period of time as a sort of bridge between myself and people. I think INTjs have a huge massive idea or quest (their life's ambitions\hopes \work etc.) which is a vital part of their essence - it defines them. But many people don't understand this, which means INTjs can talk very personally about themselves, and people wouldn't know it - what kind of person would ridicule an important part of themselves? I think it's an important part of quadra values to make others laugh at their own expense - it helps them to assess what is valuable to them, and also who is valuable, judging from the received response from those people. (Maybe that's an exaggeration - I don't talk to people much, but that is how I tend to talk to people if I speak to them for more than a few sentences, which is admittedly quite rare ).

    I've noticed that when I'm talking to INTjs, I feel unsure about how far to carry the discussion - we might be talking in a very depersonalised way about the fabric of the universe, or religion etc., but realising you think the same way feels a bit like sleeping with the person you're talking with - you think that if you fall out with that person, or your estimation about them is wrong, they could exploit all your weaknesses that they have so quickly uncovered (you know they have done so, because that's what you have done ).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    seemingly defines Alpha Quadra more than the other functions.
    Why?
    Because we are the Quadra defined as the childish ones who love pleasure, comfort, and impractical enjoyment.
    Yeah, there is that stereotype.

    But should I expect spotting a dancing queen ESFj in a classroom?
    Alphas in the classroom, by subtype, in a nutshell:

    ESFj: ESFj-Si is likely to be actively asking questions and adding to the familiarity of the atmosphere, whereas ESFj-Fe will be involved and curious, but careful of becoming too familiar with the teacher.

    ENTp: Wise-cracking, takes the role of devil's advocate. Will constantly relate the topic to larger issues of politics, philosophy, etc. ENTp-Ti is more willing to be controversial, and to challenge the teacher's competence, whereas ENTp-Ne has a less serious facade, constantly joking.

    ISFp: Soft-spoken, and generally shy about being in the spotlight, especially ISFp-Si. ISFp-Fe sometimes jokes with a neighbor during idle moments.

    INTj: INTj-Ne: Female ones are more reserved, easygoing with a wacky sense of humor. Males are always ready to give an opinion, and especially not careful about pissing people off with know-it-allism. INTj-Ti: generally studious and earnest, only speaks when he/she feels there is something very important to say. Modest.

    How often should I expect "Seinfeldian" humor to arise from students in a classroom or lecture setting?
    A lot, and that is what I was getting at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Alphas in the classroom, by subtype, in a nutshell:

    ESFj: ESFj-Si is likely to be actively asking questions and adding to the familiarity of the atmosphere, whereas ESFj-Fe will be involved and curious, but careful of becoming too familiar with the teacher.

    ENTp: Wise-cracking, takes the role of devil's advocate. Will constantly relate the topic to larger issues of politics, philosophy, etc. ENTp-Ti is more willing to be controversial, and to challenge the teacher's competence, whereas ENTp-Ne has a less serious facade, constantly joking.

    ISFp: Soft-spoken, and generally shy about being in the spotlight, especially ISFp-Si. ISFp-Fe sometimes jokes with a neighbor during idle moments.

    INTj: INTj-Ne: Female ones are more reserved, easygoing with a wacky sense of humor. Males are always ready to give an opinion, and especially not careful about pissing people off with know-it-allism. INTj-Ti: generally studious and earnest, only speaks when he/she feels there is something very important to say. Modest.
    This reflects the ESFj and ISFps I know, perfectly.
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    Giveaways for all Alpha Quadra members:

    -Self-deprecating humor
    -Talking about awkward experiences
    -Saying something silly to lighten the mood when things get awkward or a conversation unintentionally turns sour/sad
    -Talking and planning in-depth about ideas that they obviously have no intention of following through on
    -"Dude, what if we..." / "Hey, we should..." / "Wouldn't it be cool if..."
    -Obviously out-of-place philosophical discussions or the tendency to turn small issues into debates about fundamental issues
    -Relating recent experiences to topics of discussion
    -Getting people to "join in the fun," or turning a serious/work-related activity into a game
    -Planning unique experiences or convincing people to do things they've never done before
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Brilliant lists\descriptions.
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    Why thankee kindly, good sir!
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    Brilliant lists\descriptions.
    Yes, I agree--great list!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I'd have to say that out of all the quadras on display here- alpha is the most accurate, and has the most people correctly typing themselves.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Giveaways for all Alpha Quadra members:

    -Self-deprecating humor
    -Talking about awkward experiences
    -Saying something silly to lighten the mood when things get awkward or a conversation unintentionally turns sour/sad
    -Talking and planning in-depth about ideas that they obviously have no intention of following through on
    -"Dude, what if we..." / "Hey, we should..." / "Wouldn't it be cool if..."
    -Obviously out-of-place philosophical discussions or the tendency to turn small issues into debates about fundamental issues
    -Relating recent experiences to topics of discussion
    -Getting people to "join in the fun," or turning a serious/work-related activity into a game
    -Planning unique experiences or convincing people to do things they've never done before
    This is a good little list. Would anyone expand this list any?

    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    I'd have to say that out of all the quadras on display here- alpha is the most accurate, and has the most people correctly typing themselves.
    Maybe.
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    There should be a field guides thread for every quadra imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Alphas in the classroom, by subtype, in a nutshell:

    ESFj: ESFj-Si is likely to be actively asking questions and adding to the familiarity of the atmosphere, whereas ESFj-Fe will be involved and curious, but careful of becoming too familiar with the teacher.

    ENTp: Wise-cracking, takes the role of devil's advocate. Will constantly relate the topic to larger issues of politics, philosophy, etc. ENTp-Ti is more willing to be controversial, and to challenge the teacher's competence, whereas ENTp-Ne has a less serious facade, constantly joking.

    ISFp: Soft-spoken, and generally shy about being in the spotlight, especially ISFp-Si. ISFp-Fe sometimes jokes with a neighbor during idle moments.

    INTj: INTj-Ne: Female ones are more reserved, easygoing with a wacky sense of humor. Males are always ready to give an opinion, and especially not careful about pissing people off with know-it-allism. INTj-Ti: generally studious and earnest, only speaks when he/she feels there is something very important to say. Modest.
    This reflects the ESFj and ISFps I know, perfectly.
    description is adequate for myself. Although, I will go off on what I feel is most important if it seems necessary, whether or not the rest of the class is with me - more so in more philosophical or "opinionated" areas.

    In general seems a fair set of observations.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    i think that if someone is making a lot of analogies i get drawn to them. I feel like I see more alphas doing this than deltas.. I think ENFps for example seem to say things that are described as tangental only, not demonstrating an analogy.

    I've said before I just dont have many real life alphas in my life to feel like i can say much.

    Recently I've been under a lot of physical stress and found myself less able to tolerate people around me, so I guess i could reverse type-- i get averse to people who like to talk about getting ahead of others or of "normal" activities; I don't know if that's type related so much as the way they would talk about it, sort of disapproving and to me, mindless (i see many status symbols as just confusing), as opposed to a more of a roll with the punches, accepting, turn it into a joke kinda deal. I think I am a quite bohemian person really, and would expect my quadra peers to be as well.

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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Of course it's an oversimplification. I took that as what Logos was asking for.
    So lets say that Logos goes out and uses this information in order to narrow out types. Do you think he will prove successful?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    And no, it has been confirmed by my own experience. I don't see how you can criticize this when you only determined your own Fe/Fi preference a short while ago.
    Well, for one, INTj's and ISTj's might not respond in the positive way one is looking for immediately if one is amiciable and friendly when initiating contact with someone using lots of , even they do appreciate it. There are plenty of ExFp's can seem very friendly with unfamiliar people if they are interested in developing a stronger relationship with them. IxFj's usually respond with friendliness when someone speaks with them enthusiastically, even if they don't have any personal relationship with the initializer.

    And at this point, it is rather irrelevant whether I have just recently discovered my preference, or if I even have an preference, or if I am unsure for that matter. I have studied type descriptions, functional descriptions, real-life examples, inter-type relationships, etc. to the point now where I know enough about Socionics to make this clarification. Even if I am indecisive about finalizing on my type, I can still understand what others have wrote about that not all types in quadras to know that they don't retract when someone is acting too friendly with people they don't know personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I meant Fi types would be disgusted in response to Fe without Fi (i.e. sociability without any relationship), which they might view as invasive.
    If anything, I would suggest several sets of staggered, blatant, attacks, to eventually weed out IxTp's from IxTj's, which I am doubtful people other than ego types could pull off. But an attack wouldn't be just initializing contact in an amicable way, there's more to it than that.
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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirk Satellite Div.
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Of course it's an oversimplification. I took that as what Logos was asking for.
    So lets say that Logos goes out and uses this information in order to narrow out types. Do you think he will prove successful?
    I think so. I'm not trying to mislead anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    And no, it has been confirmed by my own experience. I don't see how you can criticize this when you only determined your own Fe/Fi preference a short while ago.
    Well, for one, INTj's and ISTj's might not respond in the positive way one is looking for immediately if one is amiciable and friendly when initiating contact with someone using lots of , even they do appreciate it. ... IxFj's usually respond with friendliness when someone speaks with them enthusiastically, even if they don't have any personal relationship with the initializer.
    No.

    There are plenty of ExFp's can seem very friendly with unfamiliar people if they are interested in developing a stronger relationship with them.
    Maybe, yes.

    And at this point, it is rather irrelevant whether I have just recently discovered my preference, or if I even have an preference, or if I am unsure for that matter.
    It does if you say that what I said is not supported by evidence (i.e. practice). And no, you can't fully understand socionics if you don't know your own type. Isn't that kind of obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I meant Fi types would be disgusted in response to Fe without Fi (i.e. sociability without any relationship), which they might view as invasive.
    If anything, I would suggest several sets of staggered, blatant, attacks, to eventually weed out IxTp's from IxTj's,
    That is exactly what I was saying. If I just said it in a way that offends you, then don't waste my time.

    which I am doubtful people other than ego types could pull off.
    Obviously they would be the best at it, but I think whether Fe is being used skillfully or not is besides the point.

    But an attack wouldn't be just initializing contact in an amicable way, there's more to it than that.
    Yeah.

    This is one of those times when an RL demonstration would be really useful.

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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    And no, it has been confirmed by my own experience. I don't see how you can criticize this when you only determined your own Fe/Fi preference a short while ago.
    Well, for one, INTj's and ISTj's might not respond in the positive way one is looking for immediately if one is amiciable and friendly when initiating contact with someone using lots of , even they do appreciate it. ... IxFj's usually respond with friendliness when someone speaks with them enthusiastically, even if they don't have any personal relationship with the initializer.
    No.
    Ok, could you explain what would be probable outcomes from these scenarios then? IxFj's are usually polite when responded by friendliness, even if they are responding just because of manners. However, this is not the same as showing disgust. And don't INTj's sometimes not clearly show their appreciation for immediately in some situations? There is difference in response between how a INTp would respond, but it cannot be said that is "openess" to amiable initial contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    There are plenty of ExFp's can seem very friendly with unfamiliar people if they are interested in developing a stronger relationship with them.
    Maybe, yes.
    It is evidence that detracts from your theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    And at this point, it is rather irrelevant whether I have just recently discovered my preference, or if I even have an preference, or if I am unsure for that matter.
    It does if you say that what I said is not supported by evidence (i.e. practice). And no, you can't fully understand socionics if you don't know your own type. Isn't that kind of obvious?
    It's rather irrelevant if the person is stating something that is clearly in line with Socionics. Yes, you can't really understand socionics if one doesn't know their own type. However, one doesn't need to fully understand Socionics to discuss aspects of it. You can't dismiss someone's criticisms just because they are unaware of their type even if the criticism is valid. What you are trying to do is attack me rather than attacking the point by saying that I just recently figured out my / preference. Isn't this rather obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I meant Fi types would be disgusted in response to Fe without Fi (i.e. sociability without any relationship), which they might view as invasive.
    If anything, I would suggest several sets of staggered, blatant, attacks, to eventually weed out IxTp's from IxTj's,
    That is exactly what I was saying. If I just said it in a way that offends you, then don't waste my time.
    Now you are just being clearly dishonest. You said originally:

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Fe values are fairly easy to see in social settings. Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).
    Where you say that you can distinguish a or preference by being friendly to people you don't know, and discerning if a person is part of a quadra if they respond in a friendly manner, or that they will be a quadra type will shun it. This makes a jump in logic that friendliness in unfamiliar contact doesn't include any , or that it includes , that would put any quadra value type off. This is a completely different concept than being able to discern IxTj's from IxTp's by using , which is supported by Socionics theory, although in this sense isn't being defined as the ability to be friendly in unfamiliar contact, nor does this application weed out all types. What I am suggesting is not the same as what you are.

    Don't pull bullshit out about my feelings being hurt when you leap to conclusions to think I am repeating what you said. You may also believe what I stated to be true, but don't lie that this was the your point that I was addressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    which I am doubtful people other than ego types could pull off.
    Obviously they would be the best at it, but I think whether Fe is being used skillfully or not is besides the point.
    I was just making an estimate of how to use the application I suggested. I was not clear in separating this point away from the main body of the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    But an attack wouldn't be just initializing contact in an amicable way, there's more to it than that.
    Yeah.

    This is one of those times when an RL demonstration would be really useful.
    Yeah, this is the quickest way to test these theories, and Socionics in general. Unfortunately we, the forum members, do not have psychology labs and resources to test every idea and theory we have that we think can improve Socionics. So we will have to deal with personal experience and analysis, information about human behavior and psychology, and relatively hard data collected by Socionicists.
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    I think "talking amicably" was a poor way of phrasing it. Talking effusively and familiarly with someone you don't know is what I was getting at.

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    So how would you spot Alphas in parties?

    Also as part of the field guide, perhaps we should also investigate signs which may surface that would indicate that the person is not in fact an Alpha.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    So how would you spot Alphas in parties?
    I don't know if you're talking about party as in a group of people, or party as in, a party thrown for an occasion... so here's what I think for the 2nd "party."
    If there's a party at someone's house, the ESFJ's will be the people that will move around to all the different groups since they'll probably know everyone there, If not at the beginning of the party, they will by the end of it. They'd probably have to make sure to say bye to everyone there also. In that same respect, they'd probably be the people that would say, "I can't believe (insert person's name here) left without saying goodbye."
    If I truly am esfj and not just a clusterbobble of estj/esfj then this should be about right?



    I totally just made up a new word: clusterbobble.

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    ESE relativeness is confirmed.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    So how would you spot Alphas in parties?
    I don't know if you're talking about party as in a group of people, or party as in, a party thrown for an occasion... so here's what I think for the 2nd "party."
    If there's a party at someone's house, the ESFJ's will be the people that will move around to all the different groups since they'll probably know everyone there, If not at the beginning of the party, they will by the end of it. They'd probably have to make sure to say bye to everyone there also. In that same respect, they'd probably be the people that would say, "I can't believe (insert person's name here) left without saying goodbye."
    If I truly am esfj and not just a clusterbobble of estj/esfj then this should be about right?



    I totally just made up a new word: clusterbobble.
    Well, ESEs certainly would be the people to do that, but I don't imagine nearly all of them are like that...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I think "talking amicably" was a poor way of phrasing it. Talking effusively and familiarly with someone you don't know is what I was getting at.
    Yeah, I was was thinking about it, and I do remember times when I have been annoyed by people not really being friendly with me upon initial contact, but acting as though they were already familiar with who I am, as though they could characterize me without having truly interacted with me in the past. I noticed that the main culprits of espousing this "false familiarity through characterization" came from ExFj's. I could see in this way, one could clearly agitate quadra-types. Although I think that even ExFp's might respond more carefully to a situation and not show clear aggravation towards it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    So how would you spot Alphas in parties?
    I don't know if you're talking about party as in a group of people, or party as in, a party thrown for an occasion... so here's what I think for the 2nd "party."
    If there's a party at someone's house, the ESFJ's will be the people that will move around to all the different groups since they'll probably know everyone there, If not at the beginning of the party, they will by the end of it. They'd probably have to make sure to say bye to everyone there also. In that same respect, they'd probably be the people that would say, "I can't believe (insert person's name here) left without saying goodbye."
    If I truly am esfj and not just a clusterbobble of estj/esfj then this should be about right?



    I totally just made up a new word: clusterbobble.
    Well, ESEs certainly would be the people to do that, but I don't imagine nearly all of them are like that...
    well of course not, I'm just speaking from a majority standpoint.

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    Default Re: Field Guides for Alpha Quadra

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirk Satellite Div.
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I meant Fi types would be disgusted in response to Fe without Fi (i.e. sociability without any relationship), which they might view as invasive.
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    If anything, I would suggest several sets of staggered, blatant, attacks, to eventually weed out IxTp's from IxTj's,
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    That is exactly what I was saying. If I just said it in a way that offends you, then don't waste my time.
    Now you are just being clearly dishonest. You said originally:

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Fe values are fairly easy to see in social settings. Just start talking amicably to someone you don't know, and their reaction will, roughly, either be one of receptiveness (Fe) or disgust (Fi).
    Where you say that you can distinguish a or preference by being friendly to people you don't know, and discerning if a person is part of a quadra if they respond in a friendly manner, or that they will be a quadra type will shun it. This makes a jump in logic that friendliness in unfamiliar contact doesn't include any , or that it includes , that would put any quadra value type off. This is a completely different concept than being able to discern IxTj's from IxTp's by using , which is supported by Socionics theory, although in this sense isn't being defined as the ability to be friendly in unfamiliar contact, nor does this application weed out all types. What I am suggesting is not the same as what you are.
    I think what thehotelambush meant was, if your alpha, then people with quadra values will treat you with receptiveness, and those with values will treat you with disgust - he wasn't neccessarily refering to the characteristics of those functions specially - he was describing how Alpha + Gamma types, at their extremes respond to someone from the Alpha quadra.
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    I also think that a good way of spotting Alphas is by seeing how people respond to the usage of the oppositionary functions: , , , and . I do not think that will cause too much of a reaction, but I think that an overabundance of and probably would do the trick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    So how would you spot Alphas in parties?
    I don't know if you're talking about party as in a group of people, or party as in, a party thrown for an occasion... so here's what I think for the 2nd "party."
    If there's a party at someone's house, the ESFJ's will be the people that will move around to all the different groups since they'll probably know everyone there, If not at the beginning of the party, they will by the end of it. They'd probably have to make sure to say bye to everyone there also. In that same respect, they'd probably be the people that would say, "I can't believe (insert person's name here) left without saying goodbye."
    If I truly am esfj and not just a clusterbobble of estj/esfj then this should be about right?

    I totally just made up a new word: clusterbobble.
    entp's would do this, too. at least i would.

    i think you are esfj because of how we click on line. :-)

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