Differing opinions

[KSpin]

So, I was sitting in a car with my sister driving, earlier today. My sister tells me about a girl (some vague connection to her) that died just a couple of days ago. She died when the car she was in, during a night out on the town, hit a kerb and flipped over. She wasn't the driver, and since it was a designated driver, I assume they weren't drunk. She somehow managed to fall out and was killed, even though nobody else was (from what I can gather).

So, I asked whether she was wearing a seat-belt, as this is very unlikely to happen (falling out of a car) if you are. She replies that she doesn't think so, but that it doesn't matter because it's a horrible thing to happen to anybody, especially when they are so close to their 18th birthday.

To this I reply that it was her own fault that she was killed, since she should have been wearing a seat-belt. My sister then goes on to yell at me that you can't blame somebody that's dead (I was a bit confused and bemused at this). Apparently it wasn't her fault because she couldn't have known that the driver was going to hit the kerb, and roll the car. My sister then goes and shouts at me about how I have no feeling, and how I'm the complete opposite of her. (I'm INTp and she's ESFj)

Was this the coming to the surface of our conflicting personality types?

[Not A Communist Shill]

Yes, probably - if I was told that story, I would probably be silent and unable to respond, uncertain of an appropiate response or I'd say 'yes that is sad, especially so close to her birthday' .

But it's strange that your sister considers it doesn't matter if the person was to blame for not wearing a seatbelt, now that the person is dead, and yet says 'it's sad cuz it was nearly her 18th birthday'. By the same reasoning, her 18th birthday is even less important, because she's dead and can't ever be there, while knowing what killed her is at least useful (Though I wouldn't tell the person that if I sensed there was a close emotional attachment).

[KSpin]

My reply was that ****** was dead, but you still blame him for WWII.

[Not A Communist Shill]

heh, good one. But best not to say that too often, otherwise people will think you're a Nazi sympathesizer as well as a cold hearted moron.

[Blaze]

people don't wear seatbelts all the time. yeah they're taking a risk but whatever. it still sucks that she died!

back in the old days, in the 70's no one wore seat belts. selt belt requirements are pretty new. so if people in the 70's died in car crashes, did they deserve it?

[XoX]

Ok...from what I can gather...she is completely illogical and you are a heartless asshole The point being...yes she should have used a seat belt but you don't need to rub that to your sister's face when she is in such an emotional state. But really it is not your message that sucks it is your timing. And perhaps the way you present it. I assume you said that with a pretty judging voice (which to your sister sounded like "dumb people die young, big deal, get over it (btw you are dumb too)").

[KSpin]

She didn't know this person too personally I don't think. It was a friend of one of our cousins. I don't know if she knew her not. :-p

I said "So if she'd worn a seat-belt she'd still be alive" in a matter-of-fact sort of way. Her own stupid fault.

@ diamond8:

It all depends on the situation. If there were seat-belts in the car, and you didn't wear one in the 70s then it would be your fault. If there weren't seat-belts in the car then it would be the car owner's fault (if it were reasonable to say that the car owner could have had seat-belts installed).

[Logos]

My reply was that ****** was dead, but you still blame him for WWII.

The ****** argument should only be used sparingly, especially since that line of reasoning is potentially arguable for not being analagous. But instead of "blaming her for getting herself killed" you should have perhaps told your sister that it is in fact quite sad, but it is one of the potential consequences of not wearing a seatbelt. She was not killed by not wearing her seatbelt. She was killed by falling out of the car as it turned over, which is something that could have been averted had she worn her seatbelt to begin with. So while she did not get herself killed, she certainly did not take measures which could have kept herself from getting killed.

[Jarno]

My reply was that ****** was dead, but you still blame him for WWII.

great reply

[KSpin]

I wasn't looking for advice as to how I should have argued with her, by the way.

But thank you for the interest, anyway.

[Logos]

But if you say that you are an INTp and that you have determined that she is an ESFj, which thereby makes her your Conflictor, how could this not have potentially come out of your Conflicting relations? So yes, you conflicted on some issue with your conflictor.

[KSpin]

But if you say that you are an INTp and that you have determined that she is an ESFj, which thereby makes her your Conflictor, how could this not have potentially come out of your Conflicting relations? So yes, you conflicted on some issue with your conflictor.

I was looking for the technical jargon about how my conflicted with her or something.

[tcaudilllg]

If there is one thing about socionics as this forum seems to consider it that scares me, it would be the belief, demonstrated beyond all argument in this thread, that all conflict is a result of "conflictor relations." I have plenty of friends who are my "conflictors", and yet we get along fine. Sorry, disagreement is not a matter of type.

[Logos]

If there is one thing about socionics as this forum seems to consider it that scares me, it would be the belief, demonstrated beyond all argument in this thread, that all conflict is a result of "conflictor relations." I have plenty of friends who are my "conflictors", and yet we get along fine. Sorry, disagreement is not a matter of type.

Of course not, but the point was simply that in this instance of conflict, it was with his conflictor.

[Exodus]

I've used not wearing seatbelts as an example of Ni PoLR before, although the Te/Fe difference is more blatantly obvious here.

[KSpin]

I've used not wearing seatbelts as an example of Ni PoLR before, although the Te/Fe difference is more blatantly obvious here.

So it is Te and Fe rather than any other function?

[FDG]

Well you are an idiot mostly because I never wear seatbelts either

[Exodus]

Well you are an idiot mostly because I never wear seatbelts either

Shut up, you're ruining the system.

[FDG]

Well you are an idiot mostly because I never wear seatbelts either

Shut up, you're ruining the system.

Systems exist to be broken!

[Ezra]

That's like the difference between Thinking and Feeling I think. It reminds me of the time my sister hugged our dead cat. I shouted at her "What are you doing? It's just a dead body!". I'm ENTJ, she's ISFP.

[Ezra]

Systems exist to be broken!

I concur.

[Joy]

Was this the coming to the surface of our conflicting personality types?

I don't think so. That's actually something I could see an ENFp and INTj arguing about, the INTj being you in the story.

btw, while it would have been wise to wear a seatbelt, you cannot say that it's her fault she died (and no, not because you can't blame a dead person wtf? ) as if she deserved to die or something like that. If it was an accident and no one was driving recklessly, then it's no one's fault, it just happened.

[KSpin]

Systems exist to be modified and improved upon. :wink:

[Exodus]

In all seriousness, FDG's example technically doesn't contradict what I said, since ESTps do have weak Ni.

[FDG]

In all seriousness, FDG's example technically doesn't contradict what I said, since ESTps do have weak Ni.

I have an INFp friend that doesn't wear seat belts either...

[Logos]

In all seriousness, FDG's example technically doesn't contradict what I said, since ESTps do have weak Ni.

I have an INFp friend that doesn't wear seat belts either...

Good for you, but singular people do not necessarily disprove generalities since outliers and counter-examples are to be expected.

[XoX]

In all seriousness, FDG's example technically doesn't contradict what I said, since ESTps do have weak Ni.

I have an INFp friend that doesn't wear seat belts either...

Good for you, but singular people do not necessarily disprove generalities since outliers and counter-examples are to be expected.

You are so Ti..

Anyways I would think culture and upbringing has at much or more effect on wearing seat belts than type. I mean in my country there is a LONG tradition of mandatory usage of seat belts and it has become so natural that basically everyone uses it without even seriously thinking about another kind of behavior. It is in our DNA. However I have an ENTj friend whose father was a rebel and never wore a seat belt and when younger this ENTj tried to imitate that to some extent. However nowadays he generally does wear it but still doesn't see it as such a big deal.

However in Italy no one wears seat belts

[FDG]

In all seriousness, FDG's example technically doesn't contradict what I said, since ESTps do have weak Ni.

I have an INFp friend that doesn't wear seat belts either...

Good for you, but singular people do not necessarily disprove generalities since outliers and counter-examples are to be expected.

Thanks, I really didn't know it!

[KSpin]

I just got my sister to re-assess her type, after telling her that something just didn't sit right with me, about her belief that she was ESFj. So she looks at socionics.com and realises that, indeed, she is either an ENFj or ENFp.