SLI-EIE Conflicting Relations (ISTp and ENFj)

[mr_maguoo]

What exactly are the attributes of each of these types that repel the other?

[Dioklecian]

I am no expert on this topic, however I have noticed that ISTPs boss ENFJs around, whereas ENFJs keep criticizing ISTPs and make them do things for "the cause".

[Jarno]

There are two things that you should keep separated.

1 They probably indeed have attributes that repel eachother. I don't know any examples however.
2 Your counscious is sensitive enough to feel that the other person has tools that work against you, this fact makes the relationship problematic. (conflict relationships have mutual attraction in the beginning and repel and conflict in the end.

[Expat]

What exactly are the attributes of each of these types that repel the other?

ENFjs are Fe EJs. That means that they are proactive in getting an emotional response of other people. In ESFjs' case, this tends to be more the immediate, short-term response as in getting the other person to laugh, feel happy, loving etc.

In ENFjs' case, the above may also apply but they are more focused on a longer-term kind of emotional response to the ENFj, which means accepting the ENFj in whatever image the ENFj desires to project, or accept the social role that the ENFj has chosen to adopt in a given environment. Also, as a Beta extrovert, and as ENFj in particular, ENFj feel it's up to them to get others mobilized into a group Fe atmosphere, which they see as the ideal situation.

While that works wonderfully for an ISTj - the ENFj's dual - it is disastrous for the ISTp. The ISTj does want to get involved in the same kind of Fe atmosphere but needs an external "push"; the ISTp does not want any of this and is annoyed if someone tries that on him. The ISTj also sees people largely through their social roles and so will be inclined to go for the one the ENFj is projecting; the ISTp does not want even to acknowledge the existence of that kind of social roles or "image".

The ENFj will tend to act towards the ISTp as a particularly "stagnant" ISTj and so double efforts, which will do nothing but annoy the ISTp even further. And so on.

The ISTp measures comfort and well-being through Si and Te, so if the ISTp tries to approach at all the ENFj it will be on those two areas - in the form of detailed and practical information and efforts in the short-term - which the ENFj sees as of little importance and annoying, too.

The ENFj sees the ISTp as a sullen or awkward lazy person who wastes their time on trivial low-level detailed stuff, besides being anti-social and emotionally hostile to the ENFj.

The ISTp sees the ENFj as a "good for nothing but talk" annoying person who is useless with real work and wastes their time with big and emotional talk about nonsense.

[Slacker]

I have an ENFj dad and an ISTp husband.

My dad thinks my husband is aloof, lazy, and stingy and doesn't buy me enough stuff, like birthday presents and things like that.

My husband says my dad "has to emotionally dominate every room he is in" and won't leave him alone. Oh he thinks my dad lives for drama and emotional turmoil. And he thinks my dad is loud.

So that is one example of an ENFj and ISTp.

[Nostros]

I have a buddy of mine that is an ENFJ. He is quite pushy and damanding. Sometimes he shows up at the most unexpected times and wants me to go with him somewhere. And at those times...usually, I am not ready to go anywhere. So he tells me to hurry up and do whatever, I just respond in an aggitated manner telling not to rush me. He has sometimes pushed my buttons real good like, to the point I have wanted to punch him in the face. Example: We were at a place called Numbers, which is a bar/dance club, and I was not liking the place because it was not my place to have fun. There were 5 of us there. Three males and two females. They all take off and leave me. I really didn't pay attention, neither did I care at the moment. While we were leaving to go to the my other friend's car, he saids something that really pisses me off. "Awww, Smithy was left all alone." (Smithy is my nick-name, all my friends call me by that.) I wanted to tear him a new one when he said that. I was very angry at his stupid comment.

[Kristiina]

I have an ISTp friend. He belittles everything that I talk about. When I talk about how difficult an exam is, he makes a comment about how pointless it is for me to study for master's degree. When I say I'd like to go on a holiday in a warm place, he suggests I go to a solarium and I buy a sweet cocktail in a pub in Tartu, so I could save myself the trouble of going anywhere... He sometimes treats me like a natural disaster - he can't avoid my opinionated talk, so he'll just smooth it out by contradicting me and saying none of it makes a difference. When I try to make a compliment, he coldly says he doesn't care what others think. Basically, I have dedicated myself to my goals and to the belief that I will be happier once I achieve my goals. And he casually says the goals are worthless. If I dream of a holiday, why would anyone say, "holidays are pointless, why do you want to go there anyway" and he'll actually try to PROVE that tourist holidays are a waste of time and money or that university degrees are pointless even though he knows that I'm a student.

After years of interaction he has at least learned to appreciate my good mood. He used to try to give me a reality check whenever I was too positive, but this has changes. I'm usually rather serious, worried and scatter minded, but when I'm in a very energetic talkative mood, he somewhat encourages it. He is worried that I don't get along with our ENFp friend because of him. In the presence of the ISTp, the ENFp gets more delta and I don't like it much. Lately I've been avoiding the ENFp.

He used to be my Dungeon Master in a game and I was the main voice of the adventuring party. This meant that we had a negative and big argument almost every game!!! "NOOoo! You can't say it's impossible, because your NPC did the same thing! It's unfair! You just don't want us to succeed, do you?!". Neither one of us have any illusion about the conflicting nature of the relationship. I don't try to avoid him in any way, but I have started to avoid groups where I would be overpowered by deltas. I can handle the one ISTp.

Sometimes he does things that seem very sweet to me. Like one time when we had a game of D&D, he had brought bananas. At one point I was feeling very hungry all of a sudden and I asked him if he has any to spare. He sounded extremely sad and worried when he said " no, they are all finished". It wasn't a problem because I easily found something else to eat in the kitchen (game took place in my home). But the next time we had a game, he brought about 2kg of bananas just in case. awww so sweet, taking care of my . But the way he got so sad over not being able to give me food... I had never heard him with that tone of voice before. The exact same tone of voice that my ISFp gym instructor had when I told him I had injured myself.

He knows me very well. One time he mentioned he knows my motive behind my actions in one certain situation. I kinda laughed and asked curiously, "Really? Tell me too, because I'm not sure I could articulate my motives". and he explained my behavior and reasoning very accurately. My husband was also there and we were both very amused because it had been so accurate.

[Nostros]

Well, ISTPs can be alittle be of a drag when hanging out with them. I am not a strong ISTP, I am more of an ISXP. But I can see points from both sides of the story. Just don't let him drag you down when you have dreams of your own. Tune it out the crap and don't let it get to you. I love D&D by the way and I am trying to get a game together, my first which will take forever and I dont have forever, I just haven;t put any effort into it because I havent had any ideas hit me so far. And I have no motivation either.

[xyz]

Yes, I know we are total opposites, but it's such a strong attraction I couldn't help it!

I posted this to know if any ISTP's here have managed to go out with a ENFJ girl. My current girlfriend is an ENFJ, and sometimes she's so probish (asks too many questions about what im thinking, feeling, etc), and just can't take a hint when I tell her "I don't want to talk about it", with it being anything that's pissing me off at the moment.

In fact, before I found about personality types, we were at each other's throats for the last 3 months almost every other day (We've been together for a year and a half). Talk about exhausting.

Anyway, just want to know your experiences.

[ScarlettLux]

Holy crap. You've been with an ENFj for that long!? Kudos, man. Well, recently I've been hearing all this stuff regarding how ENFjs + ISTps are the most similar types in terms of brain chemistry.. definitely not sure what to believe about that, but yeah.

So when ENFjs probe, what do you do? Keep answering? Why don't you just tell them you don't wanna talk about it straight up? Have you ever done so? I am quite attracted to the idea of ISTps too, but I am afraid of pissing them off as you say.

[xyz]

Holy crap. You've been with an ENFj for that long!? Kudos, man. Well, recently I've been hearing all this stuff regarding how ENFjs + ISTps are the most similar types in terms of brain chemistry.. definitely not sure what to believe about that, but yeah.

So when ENFjs probe, what do you do? Keep answering? Why don't you just tell them you don't wanna talk about it straight up? Have you ever done so? I am quite attracted to the idea of ISTps too, but I am afraid of pissing them off as you say.

Moody? haha, for the first year I wasn't. Then I just had a hard time with it and started getting a shorter fuse, so much so that she started to not like me as much. While I feel incredibly bad about that, I've been getting better now that I know her questions aren't there to deliberatly piss me off, they're there to just get inside my head.

And thanks for the kudos, man, it's felt so far like a really long ride.
When she keeps probing, I keep answering until I've had enough and say "I don't want to talk about it". But she feels like I'm pushing her away and just keeps asking , and eventually saying "Oh you never want to talk!".

But that isn't even the biggest challenge, really. The biggest, most absolutely hugest (not a word ) deal with ENFJ's is that they have a real hard time being alone. I LOVE being alone sometimes to clear my head and think, and before, she wouldn't let me do that. Whenever I said "I need an alone day", She felt that she was being abandoned, and that she was the one always initiating everything; and she was the one who always "wanted to come over" and "had to ask for sex". I compromised for a year before I just started to snap! And HARD.

Anyway, now she's moving like 25 miles away so hopefully she'll understand that one of the things I value most in my life is my alone time. So for all of you girls thinking about dating an ISTP, please!!! You can take away our booze, you can take away our fast cars, but for the love of god don't be so cruel and take away our alone time. We wither and die

But me and her are getting better

[Mea]

I LOVE being alone sometimes to clear my head and think, and before, she wouldn't let me do that. Whenever I said "I need an alone day", She felt that she was being abandoned, and that she was the one always initiating everything; and she was the one who always "wanted to come over" and "had to ask for sex". I compromised for a year before I just started to snap! And HARD.

Yea. Totally understand how you feel.
I was with an ENFj once. Not a normal one, a really weird one. Worst ENFj I knew. Couldn't leave me alone. Even when I had work to do.

haha. And don't worry. Some people need more alone time than others. I think most people know that.

[meatburger]

Hmm. Good luck. Thats all i can say

[Sorc]

I have alot of experiences with ISTp too... One is medoicre, one with lots of experience and lessons, one that ended fast and both enjoyed it, and one is disgusting (friend who betrayed me and critisized me over few years and during my hard hard period was making me bad and percepting and projecting on me wery bad image that made me bad, the final is bad thouhg (may be he is ISFp?))

I wrote some stuff in "failed dual" relationships thread about it btw....

ISTp cant understand that ENFj just need acceptance and accepted, esp when they feeling much, and telling "go avay" or "i have my own buisness" is bad thing to do.

Anyways - the best solutions for those - being just spectator of other actions from some distance. If it not possible better just go to "EXIT" and dissapear completely , aviding any contact (from both sides)

[flower]

Hmm. Good luck. Thats all i can say

lol, I will pre-book a place in a mental home for you so its there when you need it

Really tho, good luck, there must be something to your relationship if its lasted that long already.

[xyz]

Whenever these types get together within a 1 mile radius, for any reason, they spontaniously combust.

[UDP]

Nostros & LokiVanguard

You are both aware that this is Socionics, and not MBTI, right? They are not the same thing? By your interactions and signature quotes, it almost sounds like you are unaware of what socionics is.

[xyz]

No, I know that there is a significant difference, I just forget to type ENFj, ISTp, etc most of the time.
And I took a socionics test from this site, and it gave me the same (SLI - ISTp) type.

[mikemex]

telling "go avay" (away)

In my experience ISTp rarely say so. Maybe it's just the way you apprach them.

There are two emotional persons from my observations:

1.- Those who display a wide range of emotions and focus on the emotions themselves.
2.- Those who display a wide range of emotions, but whose emotions are a result of something else, like work, ideas, etc.

I personally don't like emotions just because the sake of it. In fact, I dislike it very much when a person is focusing on "me" insteand of what I'm doing/thinking. I believe that you shouldn't open your mouth if you have nothing to say. Maybe people should work more on making their conversations more meaningful.

[xyz]

Hmm. Good luck. Thats all i can say

lol, I will pre-book a place in a mental home for you so its there when you need it

Really tho, good luck, there must be something to your relationship if its lasted that long already.

Thanks I felt like I needed it a month ago. Maybe not so much now, but i'll have to see how this crazy ride turns out.

[Sorc]

telling "go avay" (away)

In my experience ISTp rarely say so. Maybe it's just the way you apprach them.

There are two emotional persons from my observations:

1.- Those who display a wide range of emotions and focus on the emotions themselves.
2.- Those who display a wide range of emotions, but whose emotions are a result of something else, like work, ideas, etc.

I personally don't like emotions just because the sake of it. In fact, I dislike it very much when a person is focusing on "me" insteand of what I'm doing/thinking. I believe that you shouldn't open your mouth if you have nothing to say. Maybe people should work more on making their conversations more meaningful.

i think normal ENFj is just a person who have very reasons for each emotion he express, and falling in category 2 you described (as well as to 1st)

I never show emotions for "sake of it", it have always reasons, most of times hidden, and most of times opposite of how it looks at the moment.
All my life i building "chains" of happenings, and this is way how i represent, produce and percept things.

I am sure contact with ISTp can be done.... in way you will both go some way "outside" your types... that means change something withing yourself for something other... its not easy, but if both want this its possible.... somewhere i saw notice that your type can be changed during life.... thats a case i think....

PS: about ISTp saying go away, yes, they actually dont say that, they act so, but never say

anyways i believe that all what matters is human soul, his personality and type is less.... i met one girl now, i dunno what is her type (may be she is ISTp even (or ISTj)) and i dont really care about it, i feel thats its awesome and that i want her very much for my life, and if i will know for sure her type i would transform myself to be best i can for her/dual if it necessary.

[xyz]

You see, ENFJs are like HR Managers. You go up to them and you tell them your problem and they act emphatic pretending to help you for 15-30 minutes and then when you leave the office they act against you. If I was an HR Manager I would go straight for the kill and tell them what they can do to improve themselves in one minute. Now both of us don't solve your issue, except one wastes more time and probably makes you feel better about yourself. The other doesn't waste time but probably makes you feel like you shouldn't come back to us.

I've had several cold wars with ENFJs (both female and male) and I noticed that if they were going to try to attack me in whatever way they usually get a group of people to launch at me, while my method is to do a precision strike to cut them down which is not hard since they expose themselves constantly.

HR Managers? Yeah, if they felt to need to completely flip out whenever you don't spout all the emotions you're feeling in that moment.

[07490]

You see, ENFJs are like HR Managers. You go up to them and you tell them your problem and they act emphatic pretending to help you for 15-30 minutes and then when you leave the office they act against you. If I was an HR Manager I would go straight for the kill and tell them what they can do to improve themselves in one minute. Now both of us don't solve your issue, except one wastes more time and probably makes you feel better about yourself. The other doesn't waste time but probably makes you feel like you shouldn't come back to us.

I've had several cold wars with ENFJs (both female and male) and I noticed that if they were going to try to attack me in whatever way they usually get a group of people to launch at me, while my method is to do a precision strike to cut them down which is not hard since they expose themselves constantly.

haha Hitman.. i think what you said about enfj spending time on someone is very true.... but as an ENFJ male myself i have to disagree that when the person leave office then we backstabb them in the back. IF we really dont like the guy we will tell them in a very humble and tactful way that we dont like them we will never be fake.

[xyz]

At first, I guess you can make the call that ISTp's and ENFj's are similar.

[force my hand]

That's an interesting thought.

Whether I'm convinced that I'm an ISTp or even that Socioncs is worth a hoot in the first place is not particularily relevent here, but I find that as far as my 'conflicting type' goes, the ENFjs on this forum seem absent with the PoLR-whacking. In fact, Kristiina comes across in a very attractive manner - not trying to be creepy or anything, just stating a fact.

That said, my real-life experiences with those who appear to be ENFj have been less than stellar. Like I said, it's an interesting thought to think that at first we may seem quite alike to outside observers.

(Can that be exploited? )

[snegledmaca]

some others have said about ISTp's and ENFj's being the most similar (conflicting) types or something...

If this is true it would be interesting in terms of global type dynamics. It could partially explain why so many EIE-s end up so high in power. Less resistance form their conflictor.

[xyz]

That's an interesting thought.

Whether I'm convinced that I'm an ISTp or even that Socioncs is worth a hoot in the first place is not particularily relevent here, but I find that as far as my 'conflicting type' goes, the ENFjs on this forum seem absent with the PoLR-whacking. In fact, Kristiina comes across in a very attractive manner - not trying to be creepy or anything, just stating a fact.

That said, my real-life experiences with those who appear to be ENFj have been less than stellar. Like I said, it's an interesting thought to think that at first we may seem quite alike to outside observers.

(Can that be exploited? )

No worries, I get attracted to ENFj's alot too. usually goes away in a few months though

[unefille]

Deleted due to Mistyping. Dad's probably LSI and Mum's probably ESE. Conflicts generally revolve around Ne and Ni issues.

[Park]

In these moments, they seem pessimistic, because they extrapolate from their past experiences what is going to happen: since the EIE's vision wasn't realistic in the past, it is still not realisitc now.

[Khola aka Bee]

I would agree, and I also have this combination of parents. Howver, mine seldom, if ever fight- they tend more to feed off each other and then unify in attack against another when annoyed/worried/frustrated/whatever.

The SLI in particular loses all sense of ethics and fights dirty when a fight is on.

[Park]

The SLI in particular loses all sense of ethics and fights dirty when a fight is on.

Yeah, that's me, but only an EIE can make me explode like that.

[xyz]

SLI's are good people.

[xyz]

Character, in the long run, is the decisive factor in the life of an individual and of nations alike.

>:0

All I know is that ENFj's do seem very nice and friendly on the outside..... and yet...something about them inside ..... :/

[Kristiina]

SLIs - usually mean and cold on the outside, behavior and attitudes... and yet... their motivations on the inside are very noble and good. so it's all vice versa.

[Khola aka Bee]

Yeah, that's me, but only an EIE can make me explode like that.

Trust me, when the time is perfectly fine, an SEI will do. If my ethics get pushed too far and I erupt- if it affects his creature comforts and undermines his authority, OMFG look out!

The worst thing is, the dirtier and lower the fight goes, the more upset and angered I become, until Nick drags me away to boil over in another room and cry/scream/punch it out.

[iAnnAu]

As for executing plans, I know I either want to be working off my own vision, or else I want a specific plan of attack from the other person. Them wanting me to "buy into" their vision is crap. I can't do that, and resent the expectation to.
However, I'm good at refining plans, so when someone comes to me and says "I want to do this, and this is how I think I'll reach that goal. While I'm doing this, can you do that to help me get ready for ...", not only will I likely be willing to pitch in, but I'll also make a suggestion or two on how to either streamline the process or else take a similar path to an even better result.

As for fighting, I rarely fight or argue. But the few times I and my SO at the time got into heated discussion, I am far more likely to have withdrawn instead of explode. I do not call names, and I do not react to being called names, unless you count exasperation with the immature behavior. If an act or attitude is attributed to me and I disagree with the other person's interpretation, I may get defensive, but usually after the first defensive statement or two I get the feeling I'm not getting anywhere and try to redirect the conversation (though that rarely works either, hence, ultimately, getting the fuck away).

[Park]

I am far more likely to have withdrawn instead of explode.

I am naturally like that, also. But living with an EIE has made me too quick to react sometimes.

[jrodatus]

So, if I may venture to ask.... how can we EIEs maintain harmony and avoid arguments with SLIs???

[[edited for length]]

[UDP]

I wasn't sure what forum to post this in, but this is something I wrote in an email this morning as my parents were fighting outside my bedroom.

--

EIE - tendency to state the 'obvious' about the situation (as thought attempting to ascertain whether there is consensus on how they feel about the issue), which usually aggravates the SLI. Tends to state things in an urgent and emotive tone, as though encouraging the other person to engage in their sense of anxiety and their 'vision' of the future.

SLI - resists this emotive manipulation. Sees the immediate implications of what the EIE is proposing - 'no your grand plan is for shit, because in order to achieve it, I have to do x, y and z and I can't DO x, y, and z.

Oh boy have I ever been in that position.

[07490]

I know that SLI is my conflictor, and in extreme cases in the past, especially when i was in grade school, I really hate this SLI for so many reason, I have fought with him maybe like 10 times in one year. I think we were both at fault, I found him to be cold, and tough, and even his natural demeanor pisses me off. I am also sure he hates me for me just being an ENFj. But over the years i have grown up, and gotten matured. I think that the SLI are not that bad people after all. I have even tried so much to try to get along with SLI in my life, which makes it worse, they hate my FE. That's why we are conflictor. But now that my brother-in-law is an ISTP, my sister is an INTj, I dont see him as the typical description of an lazy and cold person many would think of an SLI. He is ambitious, and quiet. I even rememeber my family was talking about politics one day, and he all of the sudden flares up, unlike his usually demeanor which was clam and quiet and he debated heatedly to me about politics. But beyond this, I sometimes even sneak into my sisters room in the past and read his love letters to my sister, which mostly contains FI description of how he feels about her. He is a good writer and his FI is sweet, I have to admit that. He loves my sister so much that his business. house and most of his asset are in my sister's name. For me however, I can never get closed with an SLI, I just cannot, the more FE I try the more they reject. My SLI brother in law try everything he can to get along with me with his weak Fi hidden agenda and I see that he tres his best to accept my Fe and response warmly with it, Most of the time, I ignore his Fi response towards me only because it is my ignoring functions. which afterward when i think about it, he really made a strong effort to be my brother-in-law. But I am willing to admit, Even I dont think i am as nice of a person deep inside than my SLI brother in law, Just so that we are completely different and how we show apprecation towards each other is accepted in a different way.