SLI-EIE Conflicting Relations (ISTp and ENFj)

[Park]

the fact of the matter is that we cannot be ourselves without getting into conflict. it's the ugly, unfortunate truth.

I've felt like that around certain people... usually Fe-EJs. My relationships with IEIs are less prone to conflict once an actual relationship is established. (They feed me Fi, I give them Ti, etc. A bond may be harder to form but it's also harder to break than with EIEs.) Otherwise I just stay away. Anyways... have you tried not talking to i.e. distancing yourself from your sister? That's what I do to avoid or minimize conflict with such people I live with or have to see on a regular basis. I'm not saying you should stop caring, just try to keep a distance and interact only when absolutely necessary. And make an agreement as to what things you will talk to each other about (/interact) and what things you won't, and try to stick to it.

[anndelise]

Agatha Fry, she made a pie
And Christopher John helped bake it
Christopher John, he mowed the lawn
And Agatha Fry helped rake it

/ G - / - D7 / - - / - G /

Now, Zachary Zugg took out the rug
And Jennifer Joy helped shake it
Then Jennifer Joy, she made a toy
And Zachary Zugg helped break it

And some kind of help is the kind of help
That helping's all about
And some kind of help is the kind of help
We all can do without

/ CG CG / G7 C / - GEm / AmD G /

I didn't know there was a video attached, and can't get to it by clicking/pasting link.

Do you have a song for 'damned if you...damned if you don't'?
Because often too, if a person claims to care, but doesn't offer to help...in any small way at all...then they get accused of not really caring. And if they do try to help...they can still be accused of not caring, because it was the wrong kind of help.

Gah, relationships suck! It's a wonder humankind made it this far, lol.

[Reuben]

Nah I've actually always thought SLE was more probable than LSI but at any rate, we know I'm some Beta ST. That's all I know. I'm sorry for going off topic...continue...lol

Jessica do you feel in any way, energized by me?

I realize that probably nobody agrees with me on this but I just recently started insisting, again, that a particular person was an EIE (Reuben). And I noticed yesterday that when he left the chatroom, the place just completely died. When he was there, it was filled with random conversations and activity, and when he left, nobody
had anything to say.

A strong argument N1cole, but this is true of SEE's as well. For the record, I conversed with IcEPicK before, and SLI from half a decade back. He told me that I was too obsessed with Se and power, and typed me as SLE. Later on, he told me that I loved drama too much, and was EIE.

I've also spoken to Live&Letlive before. She said she loved my Ni-Te humour. And other stuff as well.

Then with Rick, he said my piano had a lot of Si. Hkkmr heard my music and made a similar comment.

MCV: Mind Reading Fe


by
anndelise


Fe - What is this TPE doing? What's happening?

Info is gathered from Direct Experience of the Actions.
Info gathered is hinted at, suggested, understood indirectly.

(Ethics - the actions have an emotional and cognitive impact on our psyche...such as mirror neurons)

----------

It's easy to imagine that neural clusters are activated in the brain each time you move. But many people aren't aware that when you observe someone else moving, many of those same neural clusters will activate.

By this natural process of activation, we each unconsciously mimic the actions of others. It helps us share in the experiences of others, and to know what they are feeling, without having to think/talk about it.

Mirror neurons primarily exist in the areas of the brain concerned with movement, sensations, emotions, and intentions.

-----

Movement
A demonstration was done in which tennis players watching a video of a moving ball activated the areas of the brain that track visual objects. But when they watched a video of someone serving the ball, the above visual tracking areas activated, AND other areas of the brain that showed that the viewer's brain was "acting out" the moves seen in the video. It's believed that by the brain doing so, it helps the viewer/brain predict where the ball will go.
Hogwash, you say. The brain's not imagining that it's doing the actions.
Actually, it is.

When we watch a TPE action, the mirror neurons are activated.
And when we actually act on the TPE, causing the same action, those same neurons activate, PLUS a few mor areas related to intent (and actual muscle initiation, etc).
So we have [action clusters] +/- [intent clusters] being activated. Depending on if we are doing it...or merely watching it.

But wait...it gets better!

When we see another person expressing an emotion, the areas of the brain associated with feeling that emotion becomes activated. That emotion you saw has triggered the same emotion in yourself! You feel what you saw felt.

And wait...there's still more!!

Our brains also mirror intentions.

Two movements may be identical, but may signal very different things, in different contexts.
If you see a person picking up a cup to drink from, your brain will activated a different set of neurons than if that person was picking up a cup to clear the table.

Add them up together and you get
[action clusters] + [emotion clusters] + [intention clusters]

But remember, it's not just watching it happening...like an outside observer...
you literally feel it happening.
You feel what it's like to do the action;
You feel the emotions you saw felt; and
You feel the intention as well.

This allows us to get a glimpse of someone else's plans and thought processes w/o consciously having to work it out.

You really ARE a mindreader!!!

------

Or ARE you?

* You felt what it was like to do the action...
* You felt the emotions you saw...
* And you even felt the intentions you observed...

So you know it all...you know everything that was going on in that person's mind, right?

No. You don't.


When you see someone doing something,
your brain activates what it would be like if YOU were doing it
When you see someone expressing an emotion,
your brain activates what it would be like if YOU expressed that way
When you see someone acting with an intent,
your brain activates what it would be like if YOU had that intent
What you're feeling is YOUR actions, YOUR emotions, w/ YOUR intent.
Not theirs.
And, in order to mirror another's actions, the action must "resonate" with a motor program that your brain has already learned.

If you've never played tennis, your brain won't activate the same neuron clusters of action, nor intent, that an actual tennis player's would.

If you've never experienced/learned a particular emotion, you're brain won't activate the same neurons as the actual emotion would.

And if you've never done something with the other person's actual intent, you're brain won't activate THEIR intent...it will active YOUR intent in that same context.

Mirror Neurons...Projection at its finest?

WARNING!!
If you dare mention to an Fe ego that they are projecting the intentions, or that the intention they gave for your actions is wrong, expect there to be hell to pay. Because they KNOW! They can read your body language! They can read your ind! and yes!!! They obviously know you better than you know yourself!!
Sound familiar?

---------

Woah there, Nellie.
Lest you think I'm demonizing Fe, let's think about the implications of your actions...and the Fe's mirror neurons.

You're sad and depressed, your body language expresses this without you even realizing it...
and now you've made the Fe feel sad and depressed.
You get angry, kick some dirt around, punch a wall, threaten to harm someone..
you've just induced similar rage and intent into the Fe.
You throw up your hands and say "Fuck It! I Quit!"...
you've triggered similar into Fe.
Do you have any idea how rude you are being?
How rude it is to shove your emotions down someone's throat even when you think you're not expressing any emotion?

No wonder Fe thinks you're an ass....
cuz you ARE an ass for doing that...
and worse...denying that you're doing it. wtf? You F***n Liar!


So why the hell would Fe want to spend time with you?

Well, if you have similar views on TPE,
have experienced TPE together,
have similar intentions, hopes, and dreams,
or at least willing to let the Fe type join you in your actions/experiences...
then they'll more easily 'comprehend' the signals you're sending out.
And since it's shared or similar, you won't be denying what they feel...
nor denying what they know about you.


Team work...everyone with the same intent, the same goal. How heavenly would that be for Fe types?

Coming from the same Tribe, with the same cultural upbringing, the same symbolism, the same mannerisms. How soothing that must be. To finally be able to trust the people around you, to know and understand the people around you, and to be safely away from those idiots who constantly deny their feelings, their thoughts, and their intentions.

-----------

Fe is often linked with emotions, emotional expression, imitation/mimicry, and acting.
Fe types are often accused of trying to manipulate the emotional atmospheres, and of trying to evoke emotional reactions in others.

Your exuberance and arousability infects them...
Maybe they're trying to help you feel the same exuberance and joy they're feeling.
There are so many ways Fe can express itself....and thus infect Fe emotions into others.
Song, Dance, Poetry, expressive gestures, maybe even a hearty pat on the shoulder and a big smile
Smile!..and you'll begin to actually feel happy.
"If you chance to meet a frown,
Do not let it stay...
Quickly turn it upside down
And smile that frown away."
If you think that was annoying..spend some time with two or more Fe emo types.
They'll show you just how emo emo can be.

----------
And finally,

Fe is quick to pick up on nuances in phrasing, tone, and unconscious gestures.
You're an open book to Fe...
as long as you two 'speak' the same 'language'.
(However, Fe types may not always be aware of nor remember the implications of that last part.)

I actually identify a lot with this delise, but I'm not entirely sure if this implies that I am Fe-ego.

@ Gilly

My dad is SLI. He once told me that I was being very harsh with him, although he clearly agreed with what I was saying with him. I told him that without pain, some people wouldn't change. Whenever I was angry when young, he never let me express it. He always told me to control my emotions. It felt very unnatural to me. All I wanted was to throw a stone into the ocean. Perhaps he didn't get what I mean and thought I wanted to punch my face against the wall.

Right now, some people IRL would type me as SLI. Am I, perhaps, simply channeling his mental and emotional processes, or am I just a different kind of SLI?

When I was young, I realized that I was very aware of my 'mask', or rather, my facial expressions. Is that Fe? Furthermore, with my dad in the driver's seat and me at the back, I always felt as if he was watching my every movement, and that I could not smile at all because there was nothing that could escape his vision or knowledge. This impression may not have been entirely correct or objective, but it sure felt like it back then. My dad is very different now, but then he is also 15 years older, and less stressed by his business after making some fundamental policy changes.

@Glammy

My mum and I are generally pissed at my dad whenever he tells us to 'Stop arguing' when in fact we were just merely having a heated and emotional discussion. Both of us had a strong stake in what's going on, and after each discussion, while it may not end well, we will always reconcile and move 1 step ahead. My dad is always of the opinion that he should let her calm down. My mum told me that after she's 'calmed down', he wouldn't even remember to go back and talk to her about the issue. I suppose they have radically different conversation styles, either that or my dad is a pussy when it comes to handling women's emotions and issues.

My mum told me that dad is not romantic anymore. My dad says that it's only for young lovers and that there are other ways of expressing love. Fuck. Also, his Fe is fucked up. He tells jokes at the wrong moment, and conveys it in a manner that he thinks is funny, but isn't. (@ Aiss, I suppose that's where I picked it up from. Bitch.)

Does this resonate with you in any way, Glammy? Because I might be wrong, he could be SEI.

[jessica129]

Jessica do you feel in any way, energized by me?

No? No offense but Deltas bore me to death, annoy me and make me want to punch things. Like a lot.

[Cyrano]

You were one of us once.

[duality is cringe]

lol, i'm just here to say hi to Cyrano!

[Cyrano]

HEY old-timer! Haven't seen you here in a while. Welcome home.

[thePirate]

You were one of us once.

times are a-changin'

[jessica129]

Even when I Was in delta, they still annoyed me and I still felt the same way.

[Reuben]

No? No offense but Deltas bore me to death, annoy me and make me want to punch things. Like a lot.

See guys, I'm a fucking delta. The woman says it herself.

punch things

Here. Punch my tummy.

[Reuben]

No? No offense but Deltas bore me to death, annoy me and make me want to punch things. Like a lot.

See guys, I'm a fucking delta. The woman says it herself.

punch things

Here. Punch my tummy.

[meals]

In reading this thread, I find myself annoyed by the same characteristics that everyone else is annoyed by which further points to me not being SLI. I dunno, I tend to feel like you're talking to a brick wall when you talk to some of them...there's just nothing there...they give you nothing back. I feel so bad about myself when I interact with people like that. Like omg, laugh or something. Show something. Show that you're alive.

Totally hear you - I think it's all about emotional intelligence. Some SLIs are robots, some ESEs are laughing with EVERY word they say, and expect you to. Others, of each type, are more savvy. A little of each information element at the appropriate time is best.

[Suz]

I think it's all about emotional intelligence. Some SLIs are robots, some ESEs are laughing with EVERY word they say, and expect you to. Others, of each type, are more savvy. A little of each information element at the appropriate time is best.

I think u are spot on about this.

[Cyrano]

Specificity, especially regarding humor. Also, just the uneasy feeling. I feel as if every movement has been recorded, calculated, and judged. It's the creative Te, obviously. Yet, when coupled with dominant Si, the progression in which things are done matter a lot for whatever reason. I cannot replicate myself that way, and I find it very difficult to try and relate. Yet, I want to, which makes me just feel ... =/ (unless theyre an ass, then I dont care).

Your three leaf clover appears to have six leaves.

[Cyrano]

Glam,

I'm so sorry. I absolutely see your point of view. I guess we, as SLI, are about calming the situation, which you see as dismissive. My first thought was to try to explain your sister's reaction as a "sisters thing," but, there I go, classifying and minimizing your genuine emotions, which is just not helpful.

Best I can do is to express to you that SLIs ARE sensitive to your feelings, just not good at processing them in the moment. I can't tell you how often I have needed time to step back and think about a disagreement before I come around. Not that I would admit changing, or even worse, being changed. So...know that the SLI may not see your point of view at first, but will always have your back...kinda like sisters.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Your three leaf clover appears to have six leaves.

It would technically be one leaf that is comprised of 3 bi-colored leaflets and 1 bi-colored leaf stem

[wacey]

Never observed this conflictor relationship and am curious about how it plays out in detail. I think that in theory it would be kind of humorous to watch because of level of attention/value/need/adeptness of Fe. Any insights?

[Sirena]

I'm also interested in hearing about this. Would there be a tendency to ignore one another or to be initially attracted only to become volatile and destructive as time passed?

[The Martrix]

It looks like this...

[The Martrix]

On a more serious note, I'm thinking that in the beginning the SLI will try to be on good terms with the EIE, at least on the surface, because of the Fi-HA.

[Sirena]

It looks like this...

That was great!

[The Martrix]

That was great!

I'm afraid the SLI cat does not share that sentiment.

[consentingadult]

Suppose an EIE does something wrong/bad and is confronted by an SLI about it. The EIE, with Ti suggestive, blames it on the gnomes, and in response the SLI simply calls the EIE a liar. Next thing shit hits the fan and the EIE goes into a hysterically angry tantrum. I hate to say it, but that's so hilarious to watch! (Nah, I lied, I don't hate to say it).

[Sirena]

I'm afraid the SLI cat does not share that sentiment.

Unless SLI kitty is proud of his grumpiness!

[Satan]

Suppose an EIE does something wrong/bad and is confronted by an SLI about it. The EIE, with Ti suggestive, blames it on the gnomes, and in response the SLI simply calls the EIE a liar. Next thing shit hits the fan and the EIE goes into a hysterically angry tantrum. I hate to say it, but that's so hilarious to watch! (Nah, I lied, I don't hate to say it).

so SLI is serious/empty/dead inside?

[Becca]

so SLI is serious/empty/dead inside?

Lol it could seem that they are but they are really actually very warm and fuzzy inside and get ticked when you rub them the wrong way (understatement)

[Iris]

Never observed this conflictor relationship and am curious about how it plays out in detail. I think that in theory it would be kind of humorous to watch because of level of attention/value/need/adeptness of Fe. Any insights?

I have 2 SLI friends who i enjoy talking with because I love the way their minds work. They never say what i think they will say, it usually catches me by surprise. It is a fine relationship for casual conversations.

I usually try to tone down Fe and relate to them with Fi. I have noticed both of them get uncomfortable when there is too much Fe. I think problems would start in a working or romantic relationship, because I really need help with things/projects, and the IP temperament looks at my enthusiasm and goes naaaaaah.

[The Martrix]

Lol it could seem that they are but they are really actually very warm and fuzzy inside and get ticked when you rub them the wrong way (understatement)

Is this the whole Fi serious, over Fe merry thing?
I never notice, but apparently, when someone offends me, I smile.

[Satan]

Lol it could seem that they are but they are really actually very warm and fuzzy inside and get ticked when you rub them the wrong way (understatement)

like a pound of concrete through the skull.

[ashlesha]

the only time i remember seeing this is with my ex and his cousin, but theres nothing really dramatic or interesting to say about it....at family gatherings they just minded their own business and had minimal polite conversation. but at home when she came up in conversation he would talk about how she is spoiled/attention whorish/was good at manipulating to get her way when they were kids.

[wacey]

So I have been living with an SLI for the past few months and did so for several years awhile back, and quite possibly a much younger version of an SLI as well as roommates. The two, despite the large age difference, are very similar people. The are both quite for the most part, keep to themselves while around home. The younger one is a lot more emotive, he likes watching Adventure Time, laughing lots. Mostly he gets worked up only about his jobs, is he getting paid enough? are the benefits worth the hassles? and so on. The older one hardly, if ever in all the years I've known him, opens up about personal things unprompted. I have to read between the lines most of the time.

Me: how was work?
Him :fine
Me: fine? what does that mean?
Him: means work was good.
Me: so what did you do?
Him: Worked on a bathroom getting the tiling finished.
Me: did it go okay?
Him: yeeeaah.
Me: it sounds like it didn't.
Him: it went good.
Me: so why don't you seem happy about it?
Him: I am happy about it.
(clearly not happy about it)
SO I stop asking and move on to something else.

Pressing an SLI for answers I have found to be fruitless. You got to see how they are really thinking and feeling, then the trick here is to move on, without assuming to much.

Me: So it looks like you are hungry, I'm starving, you want to go out for dinner?
Him: Sure. No expression, no tonal change, just yes.
I know he will feel better soon….

When an SLI says yes, the mean yes. They are not going to elaborate to appease you, and if you want more in depth answers, you got to get them with tact, pressing for answers, then pulling away. This is def true of this older SLI here, and even more so of the younger one. Asking him: what do you think of …this, that, and the other thing? how did you feel about it? seems like you are sad? He often replies with condescending laughter and repeats back what I said to him as if he was surprised I asked and is buying more time: what do you mean what do I think about it?

It's all very one step forward, two steps back.

SLI are chill, like they don't make issues were they don't see issues. So like Matrix and Iris said, from what I have seen the best way to relate with and live with these guys and girls is to go about it in a Fi way, for instance respecting the relationship with them, not pressing for answers when they are getting irritated (they don't want or need emotional release in the same way an LSI needs it), and being chill at the right moments. Both the older and younger SLI's like to go to house parties, and as cliche as it sounds love to go to food parties. The older one honestly just sits in the back of the room with this shit eating grin on his face, not participating, but certainly not NOT involved in the festivities, you know?

If I go over to him and sit beside him and say: are you having fun?
Him: yes I am.
Me: but you are back here?
Him: so? I'm watching.
Me: okay, smiles and pats his back and walks back to the group. Or I sit there with him just to show him I'm his friend. After all these years I still do this, even though it does annoy me about him. BUT, people don't change in some regards. I've learned the SLI lessons. IF he says yes, then usually he means yes.

I relate to them because like me, they tend to roll with the punches in an IP fashion. But different at the same time? I would like to elaborate more on this point if interest is shown.

They are like quite house pets in a way, I'm sorry to say guys but you are.

I can see the confictor relationship going quite well in some ways simple because the SLI is so adept at keeping to themselves. Even in a working relationship I would wager that the EIE wouldn't mind SLI because the SLI gets stuff done. However, I caution to say the SLI gets stuff done, BUT preferably in their own way on their own schedule. They do not flourish under strict management's and will complain profusely if they are constantly being monitored. Which an EIE might tend to do, through no fault of their own, they just simply need verbal feedback. So maaaybe SLI's keeping to themselves is exactly the kind of thing that would confuse an EIE.

[Park]

I think problems would start in a working or romantic relationship, because I really need help with things/projects, and the IP temperament looks at my enthusiasm and goes naaaaaah.

Do you get discouraged by their attitude? Are they not interested in helping you? Or is it something else?

[Iris]

Do you get discouraged by their attitude? Are they not interested in helping you? Or is it something else?

I can't think of a specific example for the post above, but here's something that just happened with an SLI family member after we ate some food a widowed aunt brought over.

SLI: That was really good.

Me: It was really good. I was going to call her to thank her, but why don't you call instead. It would really mean a lot coming from you. (She kinda favors him.)

SLI: (Silence)

I am not sure that an LSI in that situation would really want to make the call, either. But it might be less painful for an LSI.

[Becca]

Is this the whole Fi serious, over Fe merry thing?
I never notice, but apparently, when someone offends me, I smile.

Yes I think so. I get offended when people offend me; isn't that what it's for? lol. I do not understand Fe, but I guess that is because Fe is my ignoring function and it confuses me when people "act" offensive but "do not mean it"? If you said it, there's obviously truth to it (unconsciously).

[lemontrees]

Yes I think so. I get offended when people offend me; isn't that what it's for? lol. I do not understand Fe, but I guess that is because Fe is my ignoring function and it confuses me when people "act" offensive but "do not mean it"? If you said it, there's obviously truth to it (unconsciously).

sometimes i actually act offensive to express affection

not around most people though, since obviously that would come across wrong. but the closer I am to someone, the more offensive i can get.

edit: probably everybody is a little like this though, just maybe the definition of "offensive" is different. people probably universally have an itch to tease those that they love.

[Iris]

I was kind of cringing inside when I suggested it, but I felt like it would have made her so happy that I decided it was worth a shot. I don't think I made him feel bad, but I felt bad for suggesting it, and I felt bad about the lost opportunity. I would never suggest anything like that to my SLI friends. It sort of crosses a line. But with family, you feel more free.

[Iris]

...Which an EIE might tend to do, through no fault of their own, they just simply need verbal feedback. So maaaybe SLI's keeping to themselves is exactly the kind of thing that would confuse an EIE.

Yes, I get really impatient if I don't get answers right away. Sometimes that IP delay is intriguing, sometimes it is infuriating. Your other observations in that post are also very good.

What is your type these days? I was remembering you as EII, maybe?

One more fun moment to share: A friend was meeting her boyfriend out of town for a romantic weekend: Yay! But they were meeting in Waco, Tx. Ew.

Our group of friends were all trying to help her think of fun things to do to make up for the lameness of Waco. My SLI friend was silent the whole time. Finally she spoke: " Waco makes me want to shoot myself."

That is the kind of blunt, unexpected humor that I love from my SLI friends.

[Suz]

I'm afraid the SLI cat does not share that sentiment.

How would you know? you can't tell by looking...

[Suz]

if they are constantly being monitored. Which an EIE might tend to do, through no fault of their own, they just simply need verbal feedback. So maaaybe SLI's keeping to themselves is exactly the kind of thing that would confuse an EIE.

you can say THAT again!!! I recently left a boss I think is EIE, because he was a serious micromanager just like that. Just breathing down my neck with every little thing, every little email. Even when he was out of town, i felt like he was keeping track of me. Like when i left work a couple hours early because of a snowstorm (most people had gone home before me already), he criticized me saying he sees on the internet highway cameras that the traffic is moving just fine.

[aisa]

I can't think of a specific example for the post above, but here's something that just happened with an SLI family member after we ate some food a widowed aunt brought over.

SLI: That was really good.

Me: It was really good. I was going to call her to thank her, but why don't you call instead. It would really mean a lot coming from you. (She kinda favors him.)

SLI: (Silence)

I am not sure that an LSI in that situation would really want to make the call, either. But it might be less painful for an LSI.

yeah, asking my husband to do sth like this (a similar situation and other less emotionally charged but resembling this one somehow) is like asking him "oh, honey wouldn't you mind walking barefoot on hot coals and jumping on them some? this would be greatly appreciated" silence is exactly the reaction you'd get from him (and him silently hoping that if he avoids eye contact and stays silent, the situation will just resolve itself without him being forced to take action in the manner asked of him)

edit: I read further you mentioning you didn't feel comfortable asking... yeah, I noticed that whether it's family or further relation - the reaction is pretty much the same unfortunately. I mean sometimes he will force himself but it has to be a "lighter weight" of situation, there's a fair chance he was subconsciously dreading having to have a conversation that could go onto the subject of grief and he wouldn't know what to say and how to react, despite feeling compassion.